Normal Car Cup

Discussion in 'Gran Turismo 1' started by psonefreak, Apr 15, 2002.

  1. F20

    F20

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    I used the NSX type S Zero
     
  2. takumi64

    takumi64

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    I won the Normal Car Cup with an FC RX-7 this time...
     
  3. SportWagon

    SportWagon Premium

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    Ouch.

    And congratulations.
     
  4. takumi64

    takumi64

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    968
    Despite being an out-of-date car, the FC RX-7 is cool. No wonder Takahashi Ryosuke sticks with it. And it's as good as an FD RX-7.
     
  5. SportWagon

    SportWagon Premium

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    1,797
    After I recently won the Hard-Tuned Series with the FC RX-7 efini III without much difficulty, I began to wonder whether takumi64, when I write Normal Series, understands it to mean what we in North America mean by Tuned Series. takumi64 does play the Japanese version of the game, I believe.

    The Tuned Series is after all, a series for cars which are normal in that they have not been race-modified.

    I think I have heard Europeans refer to the Normal Car Cup as the Stock Car Series, but you couldn't call it that in a version distributed in the USA without causing confusion since what is called Stock Car Racing in the USA involves cars which are highly non-stock.

    Indeed, the FC RX-7s as modeled in [size=+1]GT1[/size] are much nicer in handling than the FD RX-7s in the same game--in all of unmodified, tuned and race-mod form, but especially in tuned form unless you are careful/skillful/lucky.
     
  6. Sleek Stratos

    Sleek Stratos

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    I did it with a Demio once, killed the competition too. :sly:
    Then I fell off my bed. [​IMG]
     
  7. tmuplaa

    tmuplaa

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    8
    Won with Concept Car. Any one else?
     
  8. Sough

    Sough

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    275
    Mhm did it with the concept car before, as well as farming the hell out of the prize money with a Viper GTS. Would be fun seeing the worst car you could win it with, concept car is lowest in power, but perhaps another is worse in power to weight ratio? Mind you you'd have to decide if wallriding/ai bashing was legal.
     
  9. Mouc

    Mouc

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    Hi,

    Must say I could hardly believe what's above before I recently tried! But after 4 or 5 times running the series, it's really possible with the Concept Car... Not a glorious victory in this case (37 pts for the "Copperhead", 36 pts for the NSX) but still.
    Power to weights ratios:
    4,600 kg/hp for the Concept Car
    4,456 kg/hp for the NSX Type S Zero (and a higher top speed)
    Forgot to save the Grand Valley East Section II race (2nd one, arrived in 2nd pos.), but just to document, here are the 4 others :) :
    P.S. n°1: Sorry for not driving clean, but there were too much pressure for my level (NSX, huh? :mad: )
    P.S. n°2: Concept Car: Good Boy!

    Edit 12.4.19
    A better video with the Copperhead against the merciless NSX, split screen:
     
    Last edited: Dec 4, 2019
  10. submaniac93

    submaniac93

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    If you're looking for a challenge and the NSX isn't around on the Normal Cup, you can try to beat it with a Silvia K's. I tried it a few days ago and it's doable.
     
  11. Mouc

    Mouc

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    Mmh... Looks hard though! From the entry list, the Silvia K's is 208 hp for 1232 kg, means 5.92kg/hp, whereas the TRD3kGT is 5.19, and even better because it's lighter in the entry list (1489kg IIRC). Think I just can't do it, I'm not that skilled :/

    Do you guys think it's possible with the DB7 Coupé? 328hp for 1701kg, means 5.19kg/hp also. But quite low top speed & acceleration. Personal experiment is that only first & third races are winnable... Against a no-NSX field.

    Just to document, some runs with unmentioned/cool-colored cars in previous posts within this thread :)





    * particularly like the "stock" Corvette '96 in GT1, aka " Big Long Slidin' Thing " :)
     
  12. submaniac93

    submaniac93

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    Okay so I've tested it on PAL and no, the S14 can't do it (well I tried with a Sileighty, but basically the same thing). Don't worry about weights, they look lighter in the pre-race menus, but internally, they're still the normal values. I don't know why they're listed with lighter weights like this.

    However it's hard but possible on the japanese release, whenever the NSX isn't here.

    On PAL you'd need a 276hp+ car and if there's a NSX then good luck lol. The DB7 I think is too much of a sliding boat to beat the NSX i think.

    Here's my attempt from today ^^

     
    Goodstone likes this.
  13. Mouc

    Mouc

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    Location:
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    Didn't know about the different weights fact, thanks ;)
    Well, what's so different between Japanese and PAL version? For the S14, 214ps (roughly 208hp) and 1250kg are the same... Best handling in Japanese version?

    Wow, nice job :bowdown:
    Swear I can really do all the good moves & lines you do in 5 laps, but I need 30 :D

    And what about the TRD3000GT? Knowing how fast you drive now, I'm sure you can do it with the DB7 (Yellow one is faster, by the way ;) )

     
  14. Goodstone

    Goodstone

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    I dont think I will do better than yours, considering I always struggled on each lap in SS Route 11.... :crazy:
     
  15. submaniac93

    submaniac93

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    The cars and physics are at least 99% identical when stock. JP and US GT1 have much better FF cars due to for whatever reason having much lighter weights when tuned. (up to 200kg lighter on some cars). That all makes JP the best version to speedrun. but as for the normal cup, I think the AI cornering speed has been increased for PAL. PAL is the last build of GT1, with the most bug fixes and car specs rebalanced. I guess they also touched the AI somewhat. I don't know yet fro sure because i haven't been able to look and analyze GT1's data much so far.

    Also thanks, i just have 12 years of practice and dual stick configuration :p

    I can try the Aston and TRD3000GT i guess. Though i'll go on PAL since it's harder apparently.

    *later*

    Aston is impossible i'd say without being dirty. Eternal second at best (i messed up on SSR11 q.q ). TRD3000GT is easy peasy ^^

    TRD3000GT run (only the first 2 races, that was enough to see how easy it would be)


    Aston Martin DB7 run (could've gone for the Volante, but i wanted to drive the bonus version and it would've been worse x) )
     
    Mouc likes this.
  16. Mouc

    Mouc

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    Location:
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    Hey thanks for your valuable opinion and all information ;)
    About the AI being a lil' better in PAL, maybe you could extract the NSX lap times on each track and in on each version of Normal Car Cup... Could confirm PD tweaked it (or not).

    I think it's definitely the trick. I personally can reach your lap times (sometimes, and certainly not at DeepForest :D ), but being super dirty, with my D-pads. But I'm too old (who said "lazy" ?) to learn now :)

    Clearly you would have crushed the NSX. TRD3000GT is a good stock car. Slightly better than the New Supra RZ from the dealer, thanks to better downforce.

    Nice job though! Even with clean driving, I think you'd have won against the No-NSX AI grid. So I may win dirty one day :)

    (recently I managed a 1st at GVES II and a 2nd at DFRW II with the DB7. By the way if you watch DFRW II part of the video below, you'll see how mad AI opponents are, when fighting for their rights :) )
     
  17. submaniac93

    submaniac93

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    GG! yeah without the NSX it's possible to win with the Aston, just pretty hard still because of the TRD x)

    Don't worry about age, you could be "old" ad still play well as long as you put the time into it (and obviously any adult will know that they do't have as much time as pre adults anyways ^^

    As for the times, that's a good idea, but i'll have to time the car in a race to make sure. The quali times are inaccurate to actual performance. Thankfully, with video recording, I can do just that!

    So i did: Took a viper in both games and followed the NSX for the whole ARmini race (didn't do the others, too long for how much time i really want to spend on it x)
    Recorded the replays and went into my video editor in order to get relatively accurate lap times for it. The result were close, but the JP SX was slightly slower. However, the rest of the pack was further behind on JP compared to PAL. By about 3-4 seconds i would say, which is a lot on a track this short.

    Times in second starting from lap2 (because lap 1 is a dead start)
    049.11 PAL start 1
    088.07 PAL end 1 start 2
    127.07 PAL 2 end start 3
    165.50 PAL 3 end start 4
    204.45 PAL 4 end

    051.16 JP start 1
    092.09 JP end 1 start 2
    131.00 JP 2 end start 3
    170.37 JP 3 end start 4
    209.29 JP 4 end

    PAL:
    1. 38.96
    2. 39
    3. 38.43
    4. 38.95
    Average: 38.835s

    JP:
    1. 40.93
    2. 38.91
    3. 39.37
    4. 38.92
    Average: 39.5325s

    PAL
    PAL race.jpg
    JP
    JP race.jpg


    In conclusion, the NSX is roughly the same in speed, but the rest of the pack is much easier and slower on JP.
     
  18. Mouc

    Mouc

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    This begins to get super nerdy. I like it! :dopey:

    You would nail the TRD for sure :bowdown:
    A 1-1-1-1-2 or 1-1-1-1-3 is possible for a good driver with the DB7, against the Toyota, I'm sure :)

    Did exactly the same :) . But I measured lap times with a simple clock, so it's not accurate at all. Only the 4 last laps. Also checked there were no "fight" between the TRD and the NSX, which could slow it a lil' bit.

    NSX, PAL:
    @ ARM II: just under 39 sec
    @ GVES II: between 1.08 and 1.09
    @ CSR5 II: between 54 and 55 sec (depends if it hits or not the left wall when outing from the tunnel)
    @ DFRW II: slightly above 1.22
    @ SSR11: around 2.10

    I think this highly scientific & international comparison deserves at least to be done on GVES II and DFRW II, where the NSX is damn good* :)
    * personal opinion is because there's a lot of high speed turns in those 2 tracks, where the AI perfectly doses steering & power simultaneously, whereas the standard D-pads driver struggles with time-consuming stupid sliding :mad:
     
  19. submaniac93

    submaniac93

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    i might do it tomorrow for the heck of it. The ful track list. I was just too lazy today to do it again x)
    And if i'm exra non-lazy i might compare the TRD between regions as well since the difference in speeds is greater for it and the rest. Might as well compare the RX7 A-spec on R11 too since I got obliterated by it on JP, but it was behind the TRD on PAL heh
     
  20. submaniac93

    submaniac93

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    So, this took way more time than I thought it would. But I compared the times and i'm surprised to say that... they're equivalent. So my only guess is that somehow the player car is faster on JP? I don't have any evidence so far other than this ^^'

    Anyways, first, the times. I made sure to load the same grid of opponents, and I kept myself last in order to not affect their paths and drafting. Except PAL's SSR11 where I derped and after evaluating where the replay would stop, I just went all out... forgetting the finish last rule oops.

    Don't compare my own times apart from Autumn Ring Mini's where both were stock (but i didn't try with the Impreza, while I gave my all with the AE86), i gave myself some power multipliers in order to not fall too far behind and trigger some potential reverse rubberbanding.
    Armini.jpg
    GVeast.jpg
    CSR5.jpg
    DeepForest.jpg
    SSR11.jpg

    And now the times I recorded from this. Like last time, in seconds, and from my video editor. JP is divided in multiple videos because at one point i thought my pc was gonna crash due to some issues I had.
    As mentioned above, the replays couldn't cover the whole race, cutting out after about 6m-6m30 for both games with PAL having a slightly longer replay time, probably due to the lower framerate. Meaning i only could get one full lap of SSR11, 2 of Deep Forest and JP GV was too short for lap 4 of the RX7 and TRD3000GT.

    (Had to put || because the indentations didn't copy over for some reason)
    AR MINI
    JP NSX || LAP TIMES
    lap 2 072.46 - 111.33 || 38.87
    lap 3 111.33 - 150.15 || 38.82
    lap 4 150.15 - 189.06 || 38.91
    lap 5 189.06 - 227.48 || 38.42
    PAL NSX
    lap 2 064.46 - 103.17 || 38.71
    lap 3 103.17 - 141.44 || 38.27
    lap 4 141.44 - 180.13 || 38.69
    lap 5 180.13 - 219.44 || 39.31

    JP RX7
    lap 2 304.31 - 344.42 || 40.11
    lap 3 344.42 - 384.42 || 40.00
    lap 4 384.42 - 424.34 || 39.92
    lap 5 424.34 - 464.26 || 39.92
    PAL RX7
    lap 2 273.30 - 312.57 || 39.27
    lap 3 312.57 - 352.26 || 39.69
    lap 4 352.26 - 391.59 || 39.33
    lap 5 391.59 - 431.21 || 39.62

    JP TRD3000GT
    lap 2 523.16 - 565.50 || 42.34
    lap 3 565.50 - 605.44 || 39.94
    lap 4 605.44 - 646.05 || 40.61
    lap 5 646.05 - 686.36 || 40.31
    PAL TRD3000GT
    lap 2 488.04 - 527.20 || 39.16
    lap 3 527.20 - 566.36 || 39.16
    lap 4 566.36 - 605.47 || 39.11
    lap 5 605.47 - 645.03 || 39.56

    GV EAST
    JP NSX
    lap 2 796.31 - 868.19 || 1:11.88
    lap 3 868.19 - 934.07 || 1:05.88
    lap 4 934.07 - 1002.5 || 1:08.43
    lap 5 1002.5 - 1071.29 || 1:08.79
    PAL NSX
    lap 2 744.37 - 813.20 || 1:08.83
    lap 3 813.20 - 881.56 || 1:08.36
    lap 4 881.56 - 950.18 || 1:08.62
    lap 5 950.18 - 1018.48 || 1:08.30

    JP RX7
    lap 2 1163.45 - 1240.32 || 1:16.87
    lap 3 1240.32 - 1315.25 || 1:14.93
    lap 4 1315.25 - 1387.01 || 1:11.76
    lap 5 1387.01 - n/a
    PAL RX7
    lap 2 1124.58 - 1196.08 || 1:11.5
    lap 3 1196.08 - 1268.44 || 1:12.36
    lap 4 1268.44 - 1339.32 || 1:10.88
    lap 5 1339.32 - 1410.35 || 1:11.03

    JP TRD3000GT
    lap 2 1536.33 - 1610.22 || 1:13.89
    lap 3 1610.22 - 1680.53 || 1:10.31
    lap 4 1680.53 - 1751.22 || 1:10.69
    lap 5 1751.22 - n/a
    PAL TRD3000GT
    lap 2 1500.08 - 1570.59 || 1:10.51
    lap 3 1570.59 - 1641.49 || 1:10.90
    lap 4 1641.49 - 1712.35 || 1:10.86
    lap 5 1712.35 - 1783.03 || 1:10.68

    CSR5
    JP NSX
    lap 2 1892.17 - 1947.17 || 55.00
    lap 3 1947.17 - 2002.15 || 54.98
    lap 4 2002.15 - 2056.54 || 54.39
    lap 5 2056.54 - 2111.18 || 54.64
    PAL NSX
    lap 2 1869.46 - 1924.23 || 54.77
    lap 3 1924.23 - 1978.41 || 54.18
    lap 4 1978.41 - 2033.26 || 54.85
    lap 5 2033.26 - 2087.50 || 54.24

    JP RX7
    lap 2 2192.45 - 2251.00 || 58.55
    lap 3 2251.00 - 2307.57 || 56.57
    lap 4 2307.57 - 2364.47 || 56.90
    lap 5 2364.47 - 2421.39 || 56.92
    PAL RX7
    lap 2 2178.42 - 2235.29 || 56.87
    lap 3 2235.29 - 2293.09 || 57.80
    lap 4 2293.09 - 2350.13 || 57.04
    lap 5 2350.13 - 2407.13 || 57.00

    JP TRD3000GT
    lap 2 2492.31 - 2548.43 || 56.12
    lap 3 2548.43 - 2604.58 || 56.15
    lap 4 2604.58 - 2661.13 || 56.55
    lap 5 2661.13 - 2717.23 || 56.10
    PAL TRD3000GT
    lap 2 2480.16 - 2538.06 || 57.90
    lap 3 2538.06 - 2594.08 || 56.02
    lap 4 2594.08 - 2649.31 || 55.23
    lap 5 2649.31 - 2704.43 || 55.12

    DEEP FOREST
    JP NSX
    lap 2 2823.40 - 2905.14 || 1:21.74
    lap 3 2905.14 - 2986.49 || 1:21.35
    PAL NSX
    lap 2 2826.42 - 2908.07 || 1:21.65
    lap 3 2908.07 - 2989.33 || 1:21.26


    JP RX7
    lap 2 3138.12 - 3225.22 || 1:27.10
    lap 3 3225.22 - 3312.50 || 1:27.28
    PAL RX7
    lap 2 3149.39 - 3233.41 || 1:24.02
    lap 3 3233.41 - 3317.42 || 1:24.01

    JP TRD3000GT
    lap 2 101.16 - 184.04 || 1:22.88
    lap 3 184.04 - 266.50 || 1:22.46
    PAL TRD3000GT
    lap 2 3447.16 - 3530.00 || 1:22.84
    lap 3 3530.00 - 3613.00 || 1:23.00


    SSR11
    JP NSX
    lap 2 157.56 - 287.39 || 2:09.83
    PAL NSX
    lap 2 3811.14 - 3940.38 || 2:09.24


    JP RX7
    lap 2 480.55 - 612.53 || 2:11.98
    PAL RX7
    lap 2 4159.10 - 4290.34 || 2:11.24


    JP TRD3000GT
    lap 2 806.32 - 938.33 || 1:12.01
    PAL TRD3000GT
    lap 2 4502.32 - 4633.15 || 1:20.83
     
  21. Mouc

    Mouc

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    Mmmhh... But hey you can be proud of the job, it's complete and valuable, after all :tup:
    If you code kind of an "autopilot" (think I've read this somewhere on GTPlanet) for a better car than NSX, and measure the final time (of lead) you have after 5 laps?
    Just a question: has framerate only something related with display, or also with controller inputs (steering, throttle)? I mean that if for example the steering inputs are taken 30 times/second in JP version, you may have a more precise steering than the PAL, if it gives "orders" 25 times/second ... Don't know, just try to guess :confused:
     
  22. submaniac93

    submaniac93

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    I don't know exactly what the framerate affects, but for sure it affects how many inputs are recorded for the replays (25 per second vs 30, a replay then reloads the race an plays the inputs it recorded during the time you were driving) and how often the physics of the car are calculated per second as well. The easiest visual effect of this is the rev limiters between a NTSC and PAL version.
    The auto pilot is a good idea, but the way I'll try that is by letting the AI drive the same car on both games and compare the times I get. I can totally do that.
    What I can do too is compare some internal data the game loads on a car in order to check if maybe it doesn't give a little more grip or something.

    EDIT:
    Damn I dunno what to say. I ran the Skyline R32 GTR 1991 on both versions.
    R32 91 JP ARmini
    Test Laps
    1 45.181
    2 40.743
    3 40.797
    4 40.762

    Race laps 6th place behind R33
    1 46.252
    2 41.182
    3 40.706
    4 40.757
    5 40.750


    R32 91 PAL ARmini
    Test Laps
    1 44.988
    2 40.720
    3 40.717
    4 40.719

    Race laps 5th place behind R33
    1 46.134
    2 40.697
    3 40.688
    4 40.722
    5 40.735
     
    Last edited: Nov 6, 2019
  23. Mouc

    Mouc

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    Location:
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    Tonight's tests, with a timer, a PS2 Fat, fat Dodge RT/10, fat D-pads, and a fat glass of Lagavulin:

    test 1: Stayed 6th all ARM II long, with NSX 1st, Impreza 2nd, A-spec 4rd, R33 4th, EvoIV 5th
    NSX (PAL)
    2nd lap (1st flying lap): 38.68
    3rd lap: 38.60
    4th lap: 38.65
    5th lap: 39.20

    test 2: stayed 6th all ARM II long, with NSX 1st, TRD3000GT 2nd, A-Spec 3rd, R33 4th, EvoIV 5th
    NSX (PAL)
    2nd lap (1st flying lap): 38.73
    3rd lap: 38.49
    4th lap: 38.73
    5th lap: 39.21

    test 3: stayed 1st all ARM II long, with NSX 2nd, TRD3000GT 3rd, A-spec 4th, R33 5th, EvoIV 6th
    NSX (PAL)
    2nd lap (1st flying lap): 38.61
    3rd lap: 38.58
    4th lap: 38.69
    Could not measure the 5th lap of the NSX, it took more than 15 secs in the a*¤se, and race stops around 12 secs after the human driver finish (at least I'm sure there were no drafting possibility for the NSX :mad:)

    May be clear since the beginning, but conclusions are:
    - there's no influence from the "rest of the pack" on the NSX lap times
    - there's no "boost" for AI's opponents when you're first.

    Well, I'm dry now, no idea what could make harder the PAL version. Except the framerate point, but I couldn't explain why.
     
  24. Sough

    Sough

    Messages:
    275
    As sub knows, I've recently ran this cup some--beat the NSX with the JZ Supra (very hard), and the TRD with the Eclipse (hard but quite doable), both clean and both on my youtube if you want to check it out. Helps to realize you must win Autumn Mini, Deep Forest, and one of Clubman or Grand Valley East--R11 is pretty much unwinnable w clean driving if you're on the line of maybe maybe not beating the ai. The Subaru wagons are fun cars to beat it with as well. I imagine the Vettes would be a fun doable challenge too. I've only driven US and a little J version and the cars driven by me (not ai) seemed the same, but Sub knows a lot more about all that.
     
  25. submaniac93

    submaniac93

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    They seem the same don't they? And still somehow when I drove the new S14 K's i could finish 2nd way in front of the TRD on JP, but I finished 5th on PAL :indiff:
     
  26. Mouc

    Mouc

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    Location:
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    Hey,
    Did someone win the Normal cup with a Nismo GT-R LM ?

    [​IMG]

    Nice car, very good handling, but it's so heavy... Poor 311 hp just can't take it. And the gearbox is way too long. Even on Test Course, the 5th gear is almost useless. What do you think?
     
    Last edited: Nov 26, 2019
  27. Mouc

    Mouc

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    Some days later...

    Finally, quite doable to beat it with the Nismo against a No-NSX opponents grid. But more challenging I think against an NSX. Would be nice to see Sir SubManiac or Lord Sough give a try :)

     
  28. submaniac93

    submaniac93

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    Ask and you shall receive. I failed SSR11 with a dumb mistake, but overall it's pretty doable. Needs really good driving though.

     
    Last edited: Nov 26, 2019
  29. Mouc

    Mouc

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    Wow, hats off, Sir :bowdown:
    Knew you were gonna win, but still :)
    I can't be fast with that car, can't adapt my sliding driving style to it. Works better for me with a Supra RZ, despite those two cars are close...
    Thanks for the vid' !
     
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  30. Mouc

    Mouc

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    Just to document, 'cause it's far from being a glorious win... The Normal Car Cup defeated by an Aston Martin DB7 (and without the NSX obviously :( ).
    Warning: as usual when I drive, the style is sliding & not clean at all :p



    A timeline to avoid watching the whole time-consuming & nerdy vid':

    0:00 Autumn Ring Mini II
    - power sliding @ 2:41 . 2nd gear is quite wild on this car...

    3:40 Grand Valley East Section II
    - trying a little tenderness with TRD Supra @ 4:44
    - Supra's revenge @ 7:00
    - sorry for braking a lil' late @ 9:30

    10:02 Clubman Stage Route 5 II

    15:04 Deep Forest Racing Way II
    - TRD Supra nailing process (20:00 to 20:24)

    22:22 Special Stage Route 11
    - 23:35 RX7 vs chicane of death (followed by a battle with the "4WD")
    - 24:40 TRD 3000 GT vs chicane of death (RX7 thus nailing the Supra)
    - 32:35 TRD overtakes the RX7 again
     
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