Nose-Tipping, Rollovers, and 'Broken' Handling of MR Cars: An Analysis of GT6's Center of Gravity

[Sier_Pinski]

I think GT6 has an issue with the center-of-gravity of all its cars.

There have been many threads posted here complaining about the game's new physics engine. Threads saying that X car is broken because it spins out too easily, for example. They include the Lancia Stratos, F40, Deltawing, R8 5.2, and R8 LMS... and all of them are MR cars.

Then we have complaints about cars tipping over and performing "nose-standing". Any car - even a Nissan GTR - can roll over with the slightest bump on a minor curb (such as the one in the video). Then there's also the characteristic of any car - including this Lancer Evo in the video - to have its rear tires raise several feet in the air under braking.



I make the hypothesis that the center of gravity for all of GT6's cars may have been shifted upwards. For MR cars that are braking, the rear tires are lifted up more, and the car therefore almost has no rear tire grip, causing all the spinouts. In the case of slower cars the rear tires are lifted up completely. The cars also seem to maneuver almost like double-decker buses, which makes them more prone to rolling over. In the video you'll also notice how much the cars tilt when turning in comparison to GT5.

For those of you who think that the MR cars handle normally and the drivers are not, consider this post from a user who has driven a real Audi R8 and saying it handles nothing like the one in GT6.

I think that a simple fix in the center of gravity for all cars can fix all the bugs that are allegedly plaguing GT6's physics engine.

 

[Ganon83]

I've flipped my tuned Midget before.
There might be a slight problem with physics.

 

[azidahaka]

No idea what you mean, the stock gt40 anniversary and my garaya gt300 do not show such behaviour and drive like a dream...

 

[Ferrari458Italia]

I've only flipped cars twice and they were both on Matterhorn and I was being careless.
maybe as I advance through the game I'll do it couple more times.

 

[Lawndart]

This should be able to be tuned out with dampening. Even Kaz mentioned a lot of work went into the dampening. Cars might need more proper tuning than they did in GT 5.

But until someone does a side by side from stock to tuned this is a bit of an open ended debate. Just as many people complaining as those countering the complaints.

The RGT forced me to drive differently and as such I got faster... But I had to relearn and used a Porsche racing guide to do it. Not sure if such guides are widely accessible.

You might try both soft and hard racing suspension and test them both... Production cars roll every week at the ring, and some GT 6 race cars might have street tuned defaults?

No matter, this does require more analysis before asking for changes.

 

[Osr20_L]

I agree wiht the roll-over part but the MR cars, i think they are OK, thats the way they handle in real life, you just need to adjust you're driving stile for those cars, and also setting them really helps in controlling the oversteer under braking and the pendulum effect.

 

[Rods]

I've only flipped cars twice and they were both on Matterhorn and I was being careless.
maybe as I advance through the game I'll do it couple more times.

Flipped my Fit in SpainMadrid, but I did hit that high kerb after that downhill sector quite hard.

Never has the AI tipped like that in any races I've done so far, but it seems pretty common reading the threads over here.

I agree the MR cars are oversteering more, but mostly felt it was more realistic that way. Maybe the R8 guy will convince me otherwise.

EDIT: Madrid, not Spain (although Madrid's in Spain)

 

[z06fun]

This might be a good place to say that, in real life, MR cars have a much larger change in balance with throttle vs. say a typical front engine, rear wheel drive car. For an MR car, weight change on the front wheels with throttle changes can be HUGE. In real life, if an MR car starts out fairly neutral in handling, it can have a lot of oversteer under throttle lift. For GT6, to me it feels like PD improved these physics by A LOT from GT5, where that aspect didn't really seem to exist. From my 15 years of real life racing, MR cars can be harder to drive compared to others because of the huge balance change with throttle, especially if they don't have the real long wheel base of something like an audi R10 LM type car.

The ar flipping is a whole different issue

 

[Catlin]

I have seen a few of the low powered cars in the early series tip on its front end while braking. And I once went on 2 wheels flying around a corner and clipped the apex but apart from those things have seemed all good to me.

 

[MrUnknown]

Well, I didn't have any problem driving MR cars...

Until... The FXX appeared...

 

[sumbrownkid]

MR cars are either glued to the road like the Megane V6 Trophy or as slippery like a banana peel in Mario Kart.

 

[Johnnypenso]

There could be some merit to the CofG theory but what effect would it have on FF handling? The new Peugot RCZ for example is something like 62:38 stock and it handles really well for an FF even stock. Tuned it's at 59/41 and just fine on Sports Hards. Wouldn't a higher CofG negatively affect FF handling?

 

[MasterDriver]

I think GT6 has an issue with the center-of-gravity of all its cars.

There have been many threads posted here complaining about the game's new physics engine. Threads saying that X car is broken because it spins out too easily, for example. They include the Lancia Stratos, F40, Deltawing, R8 5.2, and R8 LMS... and all of them are MR cars.

Then we have complaints about cars tipping over and performing "nose-standing". Any car - even a Nissan GTR - can roll over with the slightest bump on a minor curb (such as the one in the video). Then there's also the characteristic of any car - including this Lancer Evo in the video - to have its rear tires raise several feet in the air under braking.



I make the hypothesis that the center of gravity for all of GT6's cars may have been shifted upwards. For MR cars that are braking, the rear tires are lifted up more, and the car therefore almost has no rear tire grip, causing all the spinouts. In the case of slower cars the rear tires are lifted up completely. The cars also seem to maneuver almost like double-decker buses, which makes them more prone to rolling over. In the video you'll also notice how much the cars tilt when turning in comparison to GT5.

For those of you who think that the MR cars handle normally and the drivers are not, consider this post from a user who has driven a real Audi R8 and saying it handles nothing like the one in GT6.

I think that a simple fix in the center of gravity for all cars can fix all the bugs that are allegedly plaguing GT6's physics engine.

Excellent conclusion. I agree with this analysis. It makes perfect sense.
I do have one issue with "Center of Gravity is too high" theory.

This video looks like someone using Racing slicks. As I KNOW for a fact their movements weren't natural for a stock car. Once you start tuning all Theories go out the window. We should only analyze STOCK cars.

I keep 90% of all my cars STOCK because I like the different driving characteristic.

 

[tinram]

My Civic EG6 (FWD) is performing as expected and is finally showing proper handling as opposed to older GTs. Hopefully fixes to MRs won't break the good work they are doing to FWDs.

 

[Sier_Pinski]

[deleted]

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

No issue so far for me driving various MR cars I drove Dino 246, Stratos and various MR cars, they drove like they should IRL, I fitted comfort hard on these cars, and using stick. The FF cars are a lot more realistic than ever, easily beaten the Novice class races with stock Fit on comfort hard ... I think the AI deliberately made slower by PD, maybe PD worried that the new physics will be too hard for casual player when racing.

 

[Carlos Fandango]

Incorrect modelling of CofG won't cause cars to spin (of any configuration), incorrect modelling of a car's moment of inertia will though.

 

[nickg07]

Thing is, MR layout is meant to be advantageous over FF and FR.. Except in GT6 it's not. That you have to drive it slower than ann FR to keep it on the track means that there is something not right...

On GT5 those who modded/hybrid cars, did PP go up or down if you moved to a MR configuration?

My concern id that at say 450pp a supercharged RX8 is lighter and more power than an MR2 Turbo. Yet surely if PP was balanced the car with less Bhp and more v weight should handle better than the rx8. Otherwise what's the point in PP if some cars are just lighter, faster, better, more powerful at the same PP?

 

[Bigbazz]

I've been driving almost exclusively MR cars and have not rolled once. In addition to that my main car (of which I've won everything I could enter with it so far) is an Acura NSX and the handling is perfect in my opinion, the car drives exactly as you would expect it from real life footage, and it drives beautifully.

The Mclaren MP4-12c drives almost exactly as it does in Assetto Corsa. If there is something wrong with the physics causing issues that may be true, but in my experience with driving the MR cars there is nothing wrong at all. I notice there are cars lifting 2-3ft off the ground when they brake, I saw it once at Monaco, but this isn't something I see often.

In real life when this happens it's an issue with the suspension, it doesn't have to have anything to do with the centre of gravity being higher. When you rolled over a curb there that could be suspension too, cars do roll in real life in racing, seen it happen a lot, especially with those racing Fiat Abarth 500 cars, and a few times at the race of champions.

 

[Dumpy]

I haven't spent a load of time in GT6 yet, but I'm just going to toss this in there... I think the front end is getting too much grip. I'd blame the tire compound and not center of gravity. Tuning also changes everything.

Though I am just getting out of the novice section and am playing with the DS3. I'm waiting until things get patched a bit further before dumping extra money on a spare copy to do 3 screens with my wheel.

One other bit.. I remember in the very early builds of GT5 you could roll like that (I rolled a car exactly twice in my lifetime of GT5). I want to say that patched it out... I wasn't exactly happy about this, because then could start attacking the kerbs unrealistically. I never rolled a car after that.

 

[LVracerGT]

I haven't had any probelms. MR cars require a different driving style IRL over FR cars. Everything feels great to me. I pound the hell out of high curbs on the Nords all the time, I've had some intense 2 wheel moments but never rolled over.

Edit: Just watched the video, that's really weird. Maybe it's just certain cars?

 

[208SpeedGeek]

The R8 5.2 and R8 LMS are SO frustrating!!! I was pretty bummed trying to drive an R8 5.2 around Brands Hatch. It just kept spinning out.

The R8 LMS is a mess! I like to have my race cars with no ABS and brake balance around 2/1 or 2/0. With the brakes set like that, R8 LMS just spins as soon as you literally tap the brakes.

Tried to work my magic again on the R8 LMS yesterday. Tried all sorts of diff settings and brake balances. Nothing worked. Ended up turning on ABS like I do on my road cars. It helped. I could brake hard going into a corner but as soon as I come off the brake and try to either, let the car roll through apex or get right back to the gas after braking, the car just wants to spin.

The way I tune brakes and diff works with other race cars I've tried in the game. R18 is great. The Renault Megane Trophy '11 is fantastic. The BMW Z4 GT3 is not too easy to tune but I got it driving nice after a decent practice session. It's just that R8 LMS that seems broken.

 

[sumbrownkid]

The R8 5.2 and R8 LMS are SO frustrating!!! I was pretty bummed trying to drive an R8 5.2 around Brands Hatch. It just kept spinning out.

The R8 LMS is a mess! I like to have my race cars with no ABS and brake balance around 2/1 or 2/0. With the brakes set like that, R8 LMS just spins as soon as you literally tap the brakes.

Tried to work my magic again on the R8 LMS yesterday. Tried all sorts of diff settings and brake balances. Nothing worked. Ended up turning on ABS like I do on my road cars. It helped. I could brake hard going into a corner but as soon as I come off the brake and try to either, let the car roll through apex or get right back to the gas after braking, the car just wants to spin.

The way I tune brakes and diff works with other race cars I've tried in the game. R18 is great. The Renault Megane Trophy '11 is fantastic. The BMW Z4 GT3 is not too easy to tune but I got it driving nice after a decent practice session. It's just that R8 LMS that seems broken.

Put ballast up front on the LMS until it reaches 50:50 distribution. It goes a long way in taming the oversteer issues this car has.

 

[GENERALSAVANT]

 

[LVracerGT]

The R8 5.2 and R8 LMS are SO frustrating!!! I was pretty bummed trying to drive an R8 5.2 around Brands Hatch. It just kept spinning out.

The R8 LMS is a mess! I like to have my race cars with no ABS and brake balance around 2/1 or 2/0. With the brakes set like that, R8 LMS just spins as soon as you literally tap the brakes.

Tried to work my magic again on the R8 LMS yesterday. Tried all sorts of diff settings and brake balances. Nothing worked. Ended up turning on ABS like I do on my road cars. It helped. I could brake hard going into a corner but as soon as I come off the brake and try to either, let the car roll through apex or get right back to the gas after braking, the car just wants to spin.

The way I tune brakes and diff works with other race cars I've tried in the game. R18 is great. The Renault Megane Trophy '11 is fantastic. The BMW Z4 GT3 is not too easy to tune but I got it driving nice after a decent practice session. It's just that R8 LMS that seems broken.

The R8 Race Car has been plagued by handling issues IRL until about last year. That car always has been a handful, even in GT5. A setup will go a long way, as it will with any other car.

 

[208SpeedGeek]

Put ballast up front on the LMS until it reaches 50:50 distribution. It goes a long way in taming the oversteer issues this car has.

Here's the funny thing about how I use ballast. I use it as driver weight. I caught some flack about this before here on GTP but it's how I like to play the game. I just put my own body weight (104 kilos) on every car I have. I don't like to shift it too far away from the middle of the car. I'm willing to try anything to get that R8 LMS to work though. Thanks for the tip

 

[LVracerGT]

Just do some digging online, there's a few really good sim racing setup guides that explain in detail what changes affect what and when. iRacing used to have a really good one but I lost the file and haven't touched that sim in about 3 years.

 

[sumbrownkid]

Here's the funny thing about how I use ballast. I use it as driver weight. I caught some flack about this before here on GTP but it's how I like to play the game. I just put my own body weight (104 kilos) on every car I have. I don't like to shift it too far away from the middle of the car. I'm willing to try anything to get that R8 LMS to work though. Thanks for the tip

That's a funny way of going about it.

Me personally, I generally go around 74-80 KGs up front, depending on the course I'm attacking.

If the Nurb, I may even go 90 KGs just for stability.

 

[208SpeedGeek]

The R8 Race Car has been plagued by handling issues IRL until about last year. That car always has been a handful, even in GT5. A setup will go a long way, as it will with any other car.

In GT5, untuned, the R8 LMS was a handful but I got a great setup on the PlayStation R8 LMS. No ABS, brake balance 2/0... can't remember what my diff, suspension and gearbox settings were but I got that car handling very nicely...

 

[LVracerGT]

In GT5, untuned, the R8 LMS was a handful but I got a great setup on the PlayStation R8 LMS. No ABS, brake balance 2/0... can't remember what my diff, suspension and gearbox settings were but I got that car handling very nicely...

I would suggest starting from scratch in GT6, new physics will respond more realistically to changes than GT5 did. I always build my own tunes, its more rewarding and you can tune to your driving style not someone else's.