Poll - 1.13 Penalty System Initial Impressions

[Voodoovaj]

Guess PD would think that making 97% of the player base happy versus 3% would probably be a pretty good trade off.

That's a false assumption.

Just because a small percentage of players are in the A/S range doesn't mean the the rest of the players are still playing the game at all. Sure, I'm in the "1%" of players by being DR-A, but 80% of purchasers are likely not even playing the game anymore.

https://www.kudosprime.com/gts/stats.php?stat_preset=active_players_7_days

Only 6 % of purchasers have had more the 20 races. The 3% in the 11-20 range is likely comprised mostly of the new players that are becoming GT Sport regulars. So, 9% of purchasers play sport mode. The rest, 89% of purchasers, don't have any interest what so ever and the DR/SR system is of no consequence. I doubt penalties or contact can be said to be the issue when 73% haven't even tried the mode.

https://www.kudosprime.com/gts/stats.php?stat_preset=sport_play_ratio

Remember, for 20 years, GT has centered around tuning and this version has moved away from tuning being a major component. There's no tuning in sport mode (to its detriment in my opinion)

Here is the stat that PD really cars about. Daily active players in Sport Mode.

http://www.kudosprime.com/gts/stats.php?stat_preset=daily_sport_activity

As you can see, the weekend peaks are dropping steadily. Sure, some people are liking it (the new system). I suspect they like it because, as far as I can tell, they are being gifted positions rather than earning them. But, make no mistake, if this graph continues on it's down ward trend, then this new change will be shown the door quickly. If it reverses the trend or levels it off, then it will be here to stay.

Here is another stat to compare. Weekly Sport Mode users Vs Weekly Active user TOTAL.

Sport Mode -> 133,000+ Check the last bar in the graph https://www.kudosprime.com/gts/stats.php?stat_preset=weekly_sport_activity

Total Active -> 720,000+ https://www.kudosprime.com/gts/stats.php?stat_preset=active_players_7_days

So you see, of the players that still play GT "Sport", most of them have not been enamored by Sport Mode. Most only play the campaign or in the lobbies. This change needs to bring people over to sport mode or this entire game direction will be a failure. This change has drastically cut my sport mode participation, even if I have benefited from it overall. Time will tell. Check these stats in a couple of weeks.

 

[zdenko]

I think a lot of people not using Sport mode will have to do with them not having PSN +. The fee would put many off.
Sport mode was the only thing good in the game until this update, at least for high rank players that is.
I can't believe people buy the game for the offline experience. Don't people read reviews before purchasing. I purposely got PSN+ for the first time ever just to play Sport mode and glad I did until Friday last week.
This is the first GT game in a while I actually liked playing online along with GT5 Prologue. The reason is pretty simple why as well, set races with less choices and lots of restrictions. I only like the daily races and FIA GT championship. Have not even bothered with Open Lobby.
I mostly disliked GT5 and GT6 online. Way to many options. I did like the GT5 Auto track generator and random car selection thing they had going. That was random and fun. GT6 ran like a dog on original backwards compatible PS3's so it was likely to crash at any time so did not do much online at all. Put any other game in and it works fine.

 

[Voodoovaj]

I think a lot of people not using Sport mode will have to do with them not having PSN +. The fee would put many off.
Sport mode was the only thing good in the game until this update, at least for high rank players that is.
I can't believe people buy the game for the offline experience. Don't people read reviews before purchasing. I purposely got PSN+ for the first time ever just to play Sport mode and glad I did until Friday last week.
This is the first GT game in a while I actually liked playing online along with GT5 Prologue. The reason is pretty simple why as well, set races with less choices and lots of restrictions. I only like the daily races and FIA GT championship. Have not even bothered with Open Lobby.
I mostly disliked GT5 and GT6 online. Way to many options. I did like the GT5 Auto track generator and random car selection thing they had going. That was random and fun. GT6 ran like a dog on original backwards compatible PS3's so it was likely to crash at any time so did not do much online at all. Put any other game in and it works fine.

The level stat will give insight into who is playing single player and who is playing in the lobbies. it's not a clear stat, but you can make some inferences.

https://www.kudosprime.com/gts/stats.php?stat_preset=players_level

You see that the vast bulk of players haven't advanced their player level much, and you need to advance your player level to earn the badges to access the various GT League tiers. With almost 3/4 million users every week, I'm going to guess that most people play in the lobbies and don't care much for GT League.

I can't imagine this change will entice people to switch to Sport Mode. I think tuning would be more of an attraction.

 

[tofuhero]

That's a false assumption.

Just because a small percentage of players are in the A/S range doesn't mean the the rest of the players are still playing the game at all. Sure, I'm in the "1%" of players by being DR-A, but 80% of purchasers are likely not even playing the game anymore.

https://www.kudosprime.com/gts/stats.php?stat_preset=active_players_7_days

Only 6 % of purchasers have had more the 20 races. The 3% in the 11-20 range is likely comprised mostly of the new players that are becoming GT Sport regulars. So, 9% of purchasers play sport mode. The rest, 89% of purchasers, don't have any interest what so ever and the DR/SR system is of no consequence. I doubt penalties or contact can be said to be the issue when 73% haven't even tried the mode.

https://www.kudosprime.com/gts/stats.php?stat_preset=sport_play_ratio

Remember, for 20 years, GT has centered around tuning and this version has moved away from tuning being a major component. There's no tuning in sport mode (to its detriment in my opinion)

Here is the stat that PD really cars about. Daily active players in Sport Mode.

http://www.kudosprime.com/gts/stats.php?stat_preset=daily_sport_activity

As you can see, the weekend peaks are dropping steadily. Sure, some people are liking it (the new system). I suspect they like it because, as far as I can tell, they are being gifted positions rather than earning them. But, make no mistake, if this graph continues on it's down ward trend, then this new change will be shown the door quickly. If it reverses the trend or levels it off, then it will be here to stay.

Here is another stat to compare. Weekly Sport Mode users Vs Weekly Active user TOTAL.

Sport Mode -> 133,000+ Check the last bar in the graph https://www.kudosprime.com/gts/stats.php?stat_preset=weekly_sport_activity

Total Active -> 720,000+ https://www.kudosprime.com/gts/stats.php?stat_preset=active_players_7_days

So you see, of the players that still play GT "Sport", most of them have not been enamored by Sport Mode. Most only play the campaign or in the lobbies. This change needs to bring people over to sport mode or this entire game direction will be a failure. This change has drastically cut my sport mode participation, even if I have benefited from it overall. Time will tell. Check these stats in a couple of weeks.

It's not hard to understand why when there is no attempt by PD to make Sport mode attractive to the traditional audience. I've already discussed the lack of Racing School missions, but they could have also structured Sport mode in a different way to make it more palatable for the kind of people that are enjoying GT League -- Sport mode could have been GT League itself, but online. Mini-tournaments, themed races (muscle cars, Italian cars, etc.), but as multiplayer instead of AI -- people enjoy that format. Combine this with a Racing School, instructional racecraft videos, and moment-to-moment awards for clean racing, and I think they could have brought more people into online. Go through the first stage of Racing School and you get a Class C license and can race road car races online. Second stage, Gr.4, third stage, Gr.3, etc. People liked that progression in previous games, and people like rewards. The cash rewards for Sport mode are paltry, and most feedback players get during a race are negatives. It's not that online in antithetical to the Gran Turismo concept, it's that Sport mode is to casual fans just a dull series of races that appeal to people that love online racing, but doesn't appeal to most GT buyers for whom that constant dopamine hit of rewards and RPG aspect is half of the reason they play. And I don't think it's that casual GT fans are even unable to enjoy online racing as an activity in of itself, just that PD has done no work at all in helping them get to that point.

But it doesn't seem like PD really thought very deeply about how to integrate online into the existing GT architecture. It seems they just assumed people would be glad to jump online with a bunch of bad drivers in random Sport races, races that don't really create a driver narrative or offer any sense of progression.

 

[VFOURMAX1]

That's a false assumption.

Well then it should be easy to run DR S and DR A races totally separate from the other classes and then the complaints the penalties are different for the B class and below will no longer be an issue.

Wait, that's right there are generally not enough S and A ranked drivers at least on the North American Server to where the upper ranks can normally fill their own race lobbies without using the lower ranked drivers for grid fillers!!!!!!!!!!!

I am sure most DR B and lower level drivers would complain about filling out the top grid positions rather than be grid fillers for drivers sometimes several seconds a lap quicker than they are!

The average lobby does not show that assumption to be totally false when out of a lobby of 20 racers it may be one or two S ranked and possibly 3 A ranked drivers using lower level driver for the rest of the grid.

Sure there are exceptions but this would probably be the average I see anyway.

 

[OrangeCrush]

All I can say is I went from an SR-S and DR-A to a SR-C and DR-B. The system is a failure when you as a driver do all the right things to avoid contact but are penalized due to others failure to do so.

Contact is part of racing and can be done strategically to gain advantage. But aggressive contact should penalize the driver who initiates ,not the recipient.

I will not be playing Sport mode until they change this trainwreck of a system. Which sucks because I only play sport mode.

I am a race fan, and we have a local track that runs Nascar sanctioned series every Saturday. Limited sportsman, mini stocks, bandos,b legends, SK lights, SK modifiers and late models. Sure, it's Oval track racing but there are legal ways of using contact to get an advantage.

Please fix!

 

[VFOURMAX1]

All I can say is I went from an SR-S and DR-A to a SR-C and DR-B

Contact is part of racing and can be done strategically to gain advantage.


Exactly the type of mindset most racers do not want to see in the upper classes and hopefully the type of behavior these changes were meant to send that style of racing to the lower ranks where you can gladly race among others with the same mindset.

 

[OrangeCrush]

Lol, contact is a part of racing. Unless I have my 15' Mustang GT at on the track for SCDA tracks days. That's entirely different.

If you're trying to.convince me that the high ranking drivers, whom I have raced against, don't use contact. You're blowing smoke dude.

They use contact all of the time.

Again, sending it in going into a turn when another driver clearly has the line. Should not result in the driver with the line getting penalized.

And for the driver who makes contact, sure, penalize them. But this penalt system isn't even real. Asking drivers to run at a quarter of their speed to run off penalties is a joke and in real life, would be dangerous.

Black flag and force a pit stop.

Penalize with an easier run off.

If you believe racing without contact is realistic ,you're misinformed

 

[toddstar77]

Seeing I had to start again from the beginning, a lowly E/B : ( ...... it's been an interesting ride, even at the lower grade DR/SR races the racing has been a lot cleaner, and I am a fan of serving the penalties early where you need to slow down not just wipe it off at your own pace. I have also noticed people are not pushing as hard down the inside of corners, more patience is being shown.

No race is ever 100% clean and sure there are morons out there who wont care but the new 1.13 changes are reaping clean racing dividends I feel.

In fact the racing has been so clean that post my 5 races to get out of E class and a few more that I'm on SR S and a high DR D already. Should be back on tonight to have another crack at it.

 

[OrangeCrush]

No race is ever 100% clean and sure there are morons out there who wont care but the new 1.13 changes are reaping clean racing dividends I

You can't penalize a racer who holds the line for the actions of an aggressive driver.

That is absurd...

You can't expect drivers to drive a quarter of the lap speed either.

This is a game. And if it were real life scenario, you would be black flagged to pit to serve your time.

Drivers need to be allowed to race, not fear tapping or getting tapped and penalized 2 seconds for something that's part of the game.

You ever watch real racing, when a driver pushes another going into a turn so they can get the inside lane? Ever see a driver peppering another drivers bumper?

It happens, they aren't trying to wreck you. They are trying to rattle you.

Cars are going to touch, it's an intangible and as long as it isn't malicious or.over aggressive then it's acceptable .

 

[toddstar77]

You ever watch real racing, when a driver pushes another going into a turn so they can get the inside lane? Ever see a driver peppering another drivers bumper?

It happens, they aren't trying to wreck you. They are trying to rattle you. .

Nope never watched a motor race in my entire life........ oh hang on is that when cars are on tv and go round that asphalt road again and again?

I'm not against rubbing, nudging, but lets face it in GTS that is NOT what was happening - what was happening was called punting and the new changes have in my view held people to account more for that type of driving. In real racing both the driver in front and the one who wants to push up the inside drive appropriately, defensive and aggressive ...and if the aggressive move was the wrong move then penalties ensure don't they, but if the defensive driver makes life difficult by closing the door or not following a blue flag (which isn't in GTS yet) there are equally penalties?? ......

Play the game, not the player......

 

[Voodoovaj]

Well, I am going to go out on a limb and that this new system is not just intentionally inconsistent, but unfairly inconsistent and buggy as hell.

I just did Race C at Bathurst. I was racing against Turismo_Psycho (sorry, I don't remember your GtPlanet name, but I'm sure you'll see this).

I made a move down the inside at the last turn. I kept it tight to the curb. It was a close move but I didn't get by enough to follow through. I had to go too slow to stay inside. I didn't get any collision, no SR drop, and no penalty,no collision sound effect, no rumble, nothing.

On the other side though, I find out (after the race) that he did feel contact and not only that, he was slapped with a 6 second penalty.

We're both A's but I think he may be a little higher ranked than me, either way, WTF? That's not even close to achieving the intended out come. That should never have happened. Now, maybe the game thought he cut me off, but I wouldn't have thought that. I see a bug, not an "intended outcome". As the passing player, it's my responsibility to make the safe pass. Could he have left more room and let me by? Maybe, but this comes back to my issue with this whole system. If he lets me by for being bold, are we really racing anymore?

I think the reason some are finding this system to be ok is that they simply haven't been on the wrong side of its bugs enough, or at all, or maybe their expectation is that other drivers should always move over.

Either way. I am not a fan even though I am on the beneficial end now more times than not.

 

[toddstar77]

I made a move down the inside at the last turn. I kept it tight to the curb. It was a close move but I didn't get by enough to follow through. I had to go too slow to stay inside. I didn't get any collision, no SR drop, and no penalty,no collision sound effect, no rumble, nothing.

On the other side though, I find out (after the race) that he did feel contact and not only that, he was slapped with a 6 second penalty.

I'm guessing you didn't save the replay and review what happened? I've sometimes noticed that what I thought was happening and what did are two different things on the replay.. also a reason why you should hold off the red mist in a race until you've seen the replay

 

[BSDShoes]

At first I liked the changes, but now it's showing its flaws, aggressive drivers are getting by with better results than those trying to avoid penalties. I've been rammed repeatedly the past couple days and I end up paying for it while the aggressive drivers doing the ramming goes on. Matchmaking is partly to do with it, DR D's getting mixed in with DR B and A's, and DR D's seem to be less punished than higher DR drivers do.

 

[RealJaySee]

I did 3 sports mode races yesterday, on Bathurst. Multiple penalties, i was at fault once and i didnt get a penalty for that.... After 3 races i am back in SR B now, I think i have been on SR A - S for two months. Until 1.13 happened... :/

 

[David Bailey]

2 races in a row 2 idiots run me off the track and into the wall, they get a 3 sec penalty and my position, I'm stuck in the kitty litter for 10 seconds, race over, happy days.

 

[OrangeCrush]

there isn't a race in the world where a driver is going to get penalized for incidental contact on an inside move. EVER!!! And now GTS makes it so not only the guy making the contact gets penalty, but the driver getting hit does too.

people can defend this system all they want. I have been running as an S-A for 3 months. Guys need to be able to make moves without fearing a penalty for what is part of the game... incidental contact.

I'm a clean driver... and respect other drivers. But I also know when another driver is keeping me from racing with the leaders. So yeah, a good driver is going to pick his spot to make a move and late break into a corner, etc.

I mean really... this system isn't even remotely close to a real life scenario. The algorithm isn't capable of predicting over aggressive driving, clearly. I had a race where I was hit, thrown into the wall, hit by two other cars and eventually disqualified because I had 20 seconds of penalties for something I had no control over.

So they just need to get back to the old system and realize this is a game... and I did not spend my money only to have this awful system ruin my gaming time.

 

[JulesDennis]

I mean really... this system isn't even remotely close to a real life scenario. The algorithm isn't capable of predicting over aggressive driving, clearly. I had a race where I was hit, thrown into the wall, hit by two other cars and eventually disqualified because I had 20 seconds of penalties for something I had no control over.

So they just need to get back to the old system and realize this is a game... and I did not spend my money only to have this awful system ruin my gaming time.

I hope you do realize they did not change the system.They only made it more strict depending your ratings.

 

[Voodoovaj]

I'm guessing you didn't save the replay and review what happened? I've sometimes noticed that what I thought was happening and what did are two different things on the replay.. also a reason why you should hold off the red mist in a race until you've seen the replay

But you kind of miss the point because...

2 races in a row 2 idiots run me off the track and into the wall, they get a 3 sec penalty and my position, I'm stuck in the kitty litter for 10 seconds, race over, happy days.

This is what the problem is.

Either the system is going to apportion blame or it isn't. If it's a no fault system, then equal penalties for everyone, regardless of class or skill, is what should be handed out. If the system is going to hand penalties out on an assumption of blame, which is apparently what it's trying to do, then it needs to do a MUCH better job of it.

 

[Sander 001]

I think a lot of people not using Sport mode will have to do with them not having PSN +. The fee would put many off.
Sport mode was the only thing good in the game until this update, at least for high rank players that is.
I can't believe people buy the game for the offline experience. Don't people read reviews before purchasing. I purposely got PSN+ for the first time ever just to play Sport mode and glad I did until Friday last week.
This is the first GT game in a while I actually liked playing online along with GT5 Prologue. The reason is pretty simple why as well, set races with less choices and lots of restrictions. I only like the daily races and FIA GT championship. Have not even bothered with Open Lobby.
I mostly disliked GT5 and GT6 online. Way to many options. I did like the GT5 Auto track generator and random car selection thing they had going. That was random and fun. GT6 ran like a dog on original backwards compatible PS3's so it was likely to crash at any time so did not do much online at all. Put any other game in and it works fine.

Many players are sticking to online lobbies as well. I have nearly 80 ‘followers’ in GT Sport and the vast majority just race in lobbies, never going to Sport Modes.

 

[OrangeCrush]

I hope you do realize they did not change the system.They only made it more strict depending your ratings.

then that would technically... be a change to the system

 

[OrangeCrush]

Many players are sticking to online lobbies as well. I have nearly 80 ‘followers’ in GT Sport and the vast majority just race in lobbies, never going to Sport Modes.

Notes from 1.13 update -
Other Improvements and Adjustments
- It is now possible to display/hide layers while editing decals with the Livery Editor;
- A gallery has been added to the detailed user information page in Discover;
- Some of the Sport mode penalties will also apply to Lobby races;
- Various other issues have been addressed.

 

[JulesDennis]

then that would technically... be a change to the system

Nope.The system has not changed.Its the same.
Let me make it more clean:before or after the update you could get a penalty if someone hits you from behind and puts you into a wall.That has not changed.
They only made it more strict in higher ratings.So its easier to get those penalties now.

Notes from 1.13 update -
Other Improvements and Adjustments
- It is now possible to display/hide layers while editing decals with the Livery Editor;
- A gallery has been added to the detailed user information page in Discover;
- Some of the Sport mode penalties will also apply to Lobby races;
- Various other issues have been addressed.

Correct but those do not have any affect to DR/SR ratings.Plus this has nothing to do with the number of players that dont want to race in SM and only race in user's lobbies.

 

[OrangeCrush]

Nope.The system has not changed.Its the same.
Let me make it more clean:before or after the update you could get a penalty if someone hits you from behind and puts you into a wall.That has not changed.
They only made it more strict in higher ratings.So its easier to get those penalties now.

semantics dude... semantics.

Reality is that this update is as far from a real life scenario as one could imagine. A driver should never get penalized for getting hit from behind while cornering or ran off the course from the inside or because you hit a car that spun off track and decides to regain his line in first gear with complete disregard for the other drivers approaching.

So instead of making the system more strict, how about just fixing what was really wrong... the algorithms ability to assume intent

 

[Crazy Taylor]

Did get a 12 second pen for slightly cutting corner before 1st hairpin at interlagos. Quite a hefty amount. But I did get fastest lap.

 

[JulesDennis]

semantics dude... semantics.

Reality is that this update is as far from a real life scenario as one could imagine. A driver should never get penalized for getting hit from behind while cornering or ran off the course from the inside or because you hit a car that spun off track and decides to regain his line in first gear with complete disregard for the other drivers approaching.

So instead of making the system more strict, how about just fixing what was really wrong... the algorithms ability to assume intent

I agree that the "system" is poor.I've been posting about these issues from the "closed beta" days.
Problem is that there are no "algorithms ability to assume intent".

 

[OrangeCrush]

I agree that the "system" is poor.I've been posting about these issues from the "closed beta" days.
Problem is that there are no "algorithms ability to assume intent".

if there is not an algorithm to assume intent then you most certainly cannot make the system more strict, especially unrealistically strict

 

[JulesDennis]

if there is not an algorithm to assume intent then you most certainly cannot make the system more strict, especially unrealistically strict

I know that mate.But I am not PD

 

[BSDShoes]

Did get a 12 second pen for slightly cutting corner before 1st hairpin at interlagos. Quite a hefty amount. But I did get fastest lap.

lol on Bathurst yesterday I was heading down the hill and got pushed to the left chicane and got 16 seconds for cutting, I just about threw my hands up in disgust.

 

[kseb08]

I love the new penalty system! It has calmed down rammers. Now, even races in Tokyo became (90%) clean. In 5 races I got only ONE penalty, but it was my fault.

Some people think they are clean, but in reality they aren't and complain about the new system.

 

[John Crellin]

lol on Bathurst yesterday I was heading down the hill and got pushed to the left chicane and got 16 seconds for cutting, I just about threw my hands up in disgust.

This happened to me too, but i only got a 5 secpenalty. Maybe becuase i braked hard through the grass and steered out? I cut the chicane in quali and got 15sec also, so i wonder why i didnt in the race? maybe the game knew it was due to a collision not on purpose?