Should PD focus more on quality and consistency next time?

Discussion in 'Gran Turismo Sport' started by Strittan, Feb 10, 2015.

  1. ClydeYellow

    ClydeYellow

    Messages:
    2,462
    Of course they didn't - I simply talked about future-proofing the models. Older assets were scrapped; newer assets (like, for example, many of the cars that were added as DLC in FM4 or in FH2) didn't need a complete remodel and were simply improved upon.

    Clearly you've never driven the R32 GT-R. Or the Lotus Elise 111R. Or one of many other cars that were first implemented in GT5: Prologue, looked bad even back then, and now pale when compared with the latest Premiums. I'd say there are not two, but rather four tiers of car detail in GT6: the "Standards" which are PS2-era assets, more often than not with pixelated textures and sometimes without proper reflections; the "Super-Standards" which are new assets, but severely lacking in detail; the "Semi-Premiums" which are not far removed from the Super-Standards, but have an interior; and then the "Premiums" which are fully detailed.

    The kind of body parts that are available also varies.

    That is very subjective. I honestly found the moon driving to be quite fun; although I'm puzzled by the choice of diverting much-needed manpower that was spent on developing the assets used in those three short driving missions. Also, it isn't much of a valid reason to say that VGT or moon driving were a bad idea just because PD could've implemented something else.
     
    Last edited: Feb 19, 2015
  2. SimTourist

    SimTourist

    Messages:
    1,325
    If we go for it, I'd say there are 6 tiers of cars in GT now:
    1. GT4 cars - they look horrible in many cases
    2. GT PSP cars - they look better than previous tier in some details
    3. Refined GT4/PSP cars - these were remodeled for GT6, but only externally
    4. GT5 Prologue cars - the first endeavor into next gen but some of them look low poly and rough, especially when round details like wheel arches/air vents/etc are rendered.
    5. GT5 cars - these are pretty solid but polygon count deficiency shows sometimes with angular exhaust pipes and what not.
    6. GT6 cars - the best we've seen so far, feature tessellation, which means there are virtually no lowpoly areas to be found.
     
    JoaoSilva, Fat Tyre, Schmiggz and 3 others like this.
  3. Zuku

    Zuku

    Messages:
    1,063
    Location:
    United States
    Actually could possibly be 7 GT3 cars you never know.

    Same can be said about Tracks too cause we've already seen people complain about how different quality the tracks are.
     
    Harsk100 and Griffith500 like this.
  4. SimTourist

    SimTourist

    Messages:
    1,325
    And perhaps there's gonna be GT7 quality cars as well, built specifically for PS4.
     
  5. Griffith500

    Griffith500

    Messages:
    8,574
    Most likely; so it goes.
     
  6. mister dog

    mister dog (Banned)

    Messages:
    8,396
    Location:
    Belgium
    Weren't all models rebuild from the ground up in FM5? In other words they might be the same car but they aren't the same model? Every car has the autovista function now
     
  7. Zuku

    Zuku

    Messages:
    1,063
    Location:
    United States
    You know what I'm depressed now LMAO!:(
     
    Fat Tyre likes this.
  8. SimTourist

    SimTourist

    Messages:
    1,325
    The exterior modelling was already pretty good in Forza 4, but interior modelling and materials/shaders were lacking. The major upgrades in FM4>FM5 transition came in those areas. From the outside the difference might not be huge, but on the inside they are worlds apart. Also a good deal of FM5 have modelled boots/engine bays which no other game is doing as far as I'm aware. Here's a comparison:
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    And GT5 thrown in for good measure. Considering PD is hesitant to throw away old models I doubt the current premiums will be upgraded sans improved ps4 lighting. Time will show though.
    [​IMG]
    The dashboard texture looks rough to say the least.
     
    mister dog likes this.
  9. Strittan

    Strittan Premium

    Messages:
    3,402
    Location:
    Sweden
    Ok, I agree not all premiums are of the same quality, but there's a BIG difference between the best looking Standard and worst looking Premium. You don't even have to look closely to know this.

    Even the worst looking Premium (e.g. the R32) looks very good in my opinion. Not perfect, but very good, and well good enough to be in GT7 on the PS4. Every Standard needs to go though, or we should be given the option to simply disable them from the game altogether if we want to.
     
    Fat Tyre likes this.
  10. omnibusse

    omnibusse

    Messages:
    371
    I wished, PD would not announce any future features anymore (App, GPS, Course Maker, B-Spec, Community Features).

    Please promise less, thus create less hype and create more surprises because suddenly something comes to the game that no one expected.

    See the sudden arrival of the great Red Bull Ring for example. That was great.
     
  11. Zuku

    Zuku

    Messages:
    1,063
    Location:
    United States
    Everyone should be like Rockstar with GTA I remember seeing early photos of GTA V from awhile back we only got like information once a year, and then after while they'd give us a little more. By the time GTA V was released you only knew as much as they wanted you to know. There were a billion leaks, but I don't think any were accurate.
     
  12. Prepare for 13 paragraphs long read please. :)

    I agree with many things that many people are saying here. I have lost interest with GT6. PD made a bad move a long time ago with many decisions and priorities i feel. Look at Forza. Apart from them not providing a physics model that worked and felt real like GT5. To me they have done most things right. I know Forza was not perfect either. Heres the aspects T10 focused on which would keep me excited in the game. All models premium with interiors and of the same high polygon count. A good selection of historic cars and cars that you don't find in any GT.

    The customization options in Forza are top notch from aftermarket parts, kits weren't wide ranging but a good selection for some cars. The ability to customize chassis and drivetrain to different types. Tyre diameter and width from 15-18" or whatever they are. More selcetion of engine parts, drivetrain, chassis, to rollcages, suspension etc.. The ability to have drag tyres. Drag tracks. And then theirs the myriad ways you can express your car with paint and paint any part of the car you want a different colour.

    I know that to make a realistic simulation racing game these features may / do / don't matter to people here could only be interested in the racing experience in a particular chosen racing genre. I.e Le Mans, having all Le Mans from past and present, having all the Le Mans tracks and variations past and present and simulating all of this through a story mode or career mode much like a real driver would go through. But then theres so many racing types or genres that GT has to cater for and to try to simulate all these through a career mode is very difficult. If you are going to take part in a career for Super GT in only Super GT cars, same for Toca, same for FIAGT and the massive list goes on.

    But for Forza you have Race cars too and you have events for for different power ranges or different class of race cars. GT is similar in the way you can choose an event that suits the type of racing car you are going to drive. But besides all of this Forza still manages to deliver all the things i mentioned in the 2nd paragraph. And really all T10 need to do is to also give more racing events and simulate them through qualifying and race days, seasons etc...

    Besides all this Forza really only needs to get the feel of Physics right so the car feels planted to the road. Sounds are much better already than GT. Everything T10 need to work on is no where near as big as the amount of work PD need to do. To me GT needs to unclude those kinds of features and content Forza has to make GT fun again. If not that then make the AI and Career more realistic bring back qualifying and proper race days, weeks and seasons and give players the realism and ability to race the amount of laps that would be done in real life.

    Of course Forza needs to work on these same things mentioned in above paragraph too. And weather is something for T10 to include that the Forza fans yearn for. So what i'm trying to say is that although these two very different Developer studios have a very different goal and priorities. Really at the end of the day they should both working to the same conclusion and taking feedback from the fans and the community and should be getting involved as has been said many times on GTplanet.

    This is why I'm buying an Xbox One very soon so i can experience the kinds of cars and content and features that GT does not have. It disappointing me that what Forza has GT or Kaz could have done if he'd had the idea pop in his head decades ago to do the kinds of things T10 have done. And all the things T10 have done have shown through all Forzas by people expressing their cars in many different ways and forms while still being able to race specific race cars and their corresponding career events aswell. Forza provides everything to an extent that forza fans want.

    But far be it from perfect its just that GT is a far cry from providing everything that GT fans would want. PD's problem is that they have had all the time to do all this and have focusses on the wrong types of features and content to put in the game and wasted time on other things. Like i hardly ever drive the VGT cars at all and all this work when that time could be delegated to making most of the cars premium. Sound as another and customization as another. Moon events although now added means you'll get people wanting it in the next game. Every move PD make in some peoples eyes and minds can be a complete waste of resources and time when choosing and implementing and adding them to a new game.

    Also i would like to say i think Moon racing is not part of a "Down to Earth" Racing simulators" job. But then some people would also say that wanting what forza has and including it in GT is not what should be in GT either as it isn't something that a Pure Racing Simulator needs to require or have included. Well i say a "Driving Simulator" should also cover these things because it will appeal in general to car enthusiasts. And car enthusiasts love speed, car enthusiasts love fast cars, car enthusiasts love modified cars and car enthusiasts love customizing their cars and making them unique.

    A game like this should include anything and everything that would appeal to any car lover or car enthusiast. I say this may or may not appeal to people who want purely what Pcars is which is Pure "Racing Simulator". But a game like Forza can and has shown that you can still make a game which can have all the racing classes that exist and all the matching racing events and carreers that exist while still including all the side stuff which will appeal to most gamers and it will draw sales to the game

    GT also needs Speed Test still for meee even if they don't add it. In every post i make Speed Test always is mentioned. Again not in a Developer studios "loyalty" or general interest to add said features to new games. But it will upset a lot of gamers and turn them away from the game. For me if GT caught upto T10 in premium only cars, customization, souund and A.I on the level that is in Forza and it included Speed Test that would catch my interest. But it's just too boring and all event and careers are too easy and have been completed. Seasonals is not enough.

    I'm even not finding myself interested in Drag racing that often any more. The only real decent thing that is keeping GT alive is the Internet and Online services, and multiplayer content. This I feel is the only thing GT has going for it. In my opinion VGT is nice but its a time waster and too much money on including the wrong things in the game. And i'll maybe drive the cars once and then forget about them. They are a gimmick and a concept and are not based on driving real cars that exist in the world that are not in the game. To me time could be better spent including real cars here and more of them.

    If you made it this far thanks for reading. These are my thoughts and i tried to convey and express them as best i can without causing BIAS. It is only my intention to give my personal opinion as i also see it reflected throughout the GTPlanet community aswell.
     
    Last edited: Feb 20, 2015
    JoaoSilva, Johnnypenso and F1jocker12 like this.
  13. Schmiggz

    Schmiggz

    Messages:
    3,290
    Location:
    Canada
    If it was in my powers, I would radicaly improve granturismo this way:
    1. Throw in the garbage some 500 useless cars that:
    a) Nobody in he's perfect sense would ever use to race, drag or drift like the Mazda Carol, Subaru 360, Daihatsu Midget or the VW
    Schwimmwagen.
    b) Cars that have 3 or 4 versions of the exact same model like the dozens of Miatas, S2000, RX7'S or Silvias.
    c) Old standard models without any history or charisma like the Eagle Talon, Ford Ka, Toyota Carina or the Volvo 240 GT Estate just to name a very, very few.

    2. Introduce more cars per racing class so if you want to gather a group of friends to do some V8 supercars you can choose some more than a freaking 2000 Ford Falcon. Adding the Mclaren MP4-12, the LamborghinI Gallardo and Ferrari 458 race cars to the super popular GT3 cathegory would also be a great idea.

    3. Get rid of some absolute data garbage like the moon crap, most of the Goodwood festival of speed, the Sierra Sunday drive by the ocean, the dirty racers paradise aka Quick match and the 10.000 color paint chips, racing suits and helmets.

    4. Greatly improve engine sounds particulary in most of the racing cars and game physics. It's an absurd when I can't get one second from the guy in front of me that exited the corner sideways or with two wheels in the sand!

    5. Create a true war against hackers making the 7 a way safer and fair game.

    6. Try my best to offer my costumers regular DLC's of the last models of existing brands in the game and some more real world tracks.

    7. Availability to tune AI to match everyone's skill levels.
     
    Last edited: Feb 20, 2015
    Fat Tyre and Johnnypenso like this.
  14. F1jocker12

    F1jocker12 (Banned)

    Messages:
    490
    Location:
    United States
    You got an endurance post and I love it. As long as it has a message in it, is great!

    In the business world things are a little different. You only see it from the user or player POV, but when they face direct competition on a segment and they realize they cannot keep up with it, they (the companies) will move away, focusing on something else, share the limited target (racing fans games players). At the end of the day, if they want to survive, they will be in different places, not at the same one. Would you have 2 employees work in different ways for the same projects when you have limited resources (real world - just to give u an example)? NO! You will have them go in different directions because that will give you different final options to go with and will stimulate creativity as well. What we see is how GT moved away from Kaz initial ideas (very good reminder) because the moment another team came up with great results in a final project, they killed any possibility for PD to do it. Money were already spent (consumers) and as long as you have a game that has that feature, why spending twice on the same thing (from customer POV)?

    That is how and why (in my opinion) Kaz went to develop the Moon absolutely useless part of the game. Why useless? Because once done, nobody will go back to do it again and PD knew it. How? By not working and adding monthly events for it. That shows us what was (and what was not) important for GT6 at the end of the day. "Exciting" moon mission part of the game is completely abandoned. DEAD.

    Racing events with those VGT cars will have a huge impact in promoting that project, more than anything else, because players will have the chance to try those cars again in racing conditions, not having them collected in the garage like useless trophies. Same with any boring car in the game. In order to show if that car is important for PD, PD needs to activate it thru those online events, make it available for racing, the core concept of any GT game. So they need a lot more events to let us choose from, or a lot less cars, focusing on quality rather than quantity.

    Do not forget the new agreement with FIA, something that no company has achieved yet, very important for the future shape of these GT games.

    Keep the coming Wraith... This criticism is actually the only way to make PD understand his customers and get better. By defending the product in his present shape we are not doing any good to PolyphonyDigital, to future customers, to us and to all those companies involved in this business, companies looking for constant improvement with better results.
     
    Last edited: Feb 20, 2015
  15. 05XR8

    05XR8

    Messages:
    30,345
    Location:
    Australia
    The One Make races for Offline should have had 16 cars with randomised tracks and had choices of stock and Race Models As wel as Single race and adjust number of races for Championsips. There's no replayability with the way things are.
     
  16. Johnnypenso

    Johnnypenso Premium

    Messages:
    28,425
    Location:
    Canada
    Agreed.:tup::tup: The biggest problem with both the moon and Goodwood is, you can't set up an online or offline race/event on it. Why go to the trouble of all that modeling and not let us use them offline and online for racing? When Goodwood was announced in 2013 I was absolutely certain that you would be able to use it online in some sort of specially designed event, where they game engine would automatically queue everyone up in 10 second intervals for the run up the hill, ghosting anyone who crashed out so they couldn't interfere with your run. Instead all we get are some special events. Same with the moon. You go to the trouble of modeling the environment and the vehicle, but we can't racing online or offline with it on a "track" of some sort. Why not? In terms of rendering it, it would have to be the easist on the PS3 to render. The track could just be some simple curbs or markers or rocks marked with stripes for that matter, that you must be either left or right of, like gates in slalom skiing.

    Both GT5 and GT6 are chock full of great ideas that were poorly implemented and not fleshed out very well at all. Many of them it seems, were included in the game just so they could put a tag line in an advert. "We have racing on the moon". Yay. Now what? I certainly hope that this changes on the PS4 and more attention is paid to exploiting the potential of these extra events and features in order to prolong the life and enjoyment of the game.
     
  17. 05XR8

    05XR8

    Messages:
    30,345
    Location:
    Australia
    It's the same for Sierra. Now that we know the pattern of how the cars move on track, why bother to press "Start"? All that rendering and we can't practice with all those 75+ cars to weave through traffic with.
     
  18. JoaoSilva

    JoaoSilva

    Messages:
    1,498
    Location:
    Portugal
    Well you can never fully please everybody .

    That's exactly what i'm saying , they should worry about the basics first , get the stuff we want like every car (and track) having the same level of detail , longer carrer mode (including B-Spec) , endurance races wich i really missed from GT4/5 , Livery editor (wich was promised for GT5) , etc... I don't mind if we only got like 450-600 cars in GT7 , as long as there's variety and no bias towards any car brand (there are more than 120 Nissans in GT6 ...) , same goes for tracks , i can go with less tracks but all i ask is variety and quality.

    Instead PD wasted precious time developing things like the GPS Data Visualizer and Sierra (i like Sierra but with the time it took to make , that said time could've gone to real-life course , maybe even 2 , since the track is so big) instead of focusing on what was promised in GT6 (course creator and B-Spec).

    But i still trust PD to do a great job with GT7 , and i think it will blow us away since it's already in development for a long time (probably) , and with no release date confirmed for 2016 , they will be working on it for years , wich IMO is a good thing , i just hope they don't make the same mistakes again.
     
  19. tankuroded

    tankuroded

    Messages:
    3,578
    Location:
    Indonesia
    By how? Also given the tone of your post you better post this in the "if you could take over Kaz' job" thread. :rolleyes:

    PD never promised a livery editor for GT5. Any mention to livery editor is in the GTHD roadmap thing, and GTHD != GT5.
     
    ClydeYellow likes this.
  20. Johnnypenso

    Johnnypenso Premium

    Messages:
    28,425
    Location:
    Canada
    They've had literally a decade of development time on the PS3 and the end result is what you have now. I'm not sure it's lots of time that PD needs to get it right.
     
  21. JoaoSilva

    JoaoSilva

    Messages:
    1,498
    Location:
    Portugal
    Well , they totally delivered on car physics and tracks but on the rest , i agree with you .

    But i'll give them a second chance to redeem themselves.
     
  22. Schmiggz

    Schmiggz

    Messages:
    3,290
    Location:
    Canada
    Ok, let me ask you something... In your family or friends circles you probably voiced out your personal opinions, about what you think has been done wrong and what you feel you would do if you had the chance for doing something, right? Maybe in the way your country has been politicaly runned, the way your football team has been managed or even how the the western world should deal with the Muslim radicals crisis and I bet that never one of your friends or family members answered you "well, why don't you go take Barack Obama's job as President of the USA?"
    This is a space for free, honest and of course, personal opinions about something that gathered us all together, Racing Games and specifically GranTurismo. Everybody that posted they're opinions here has absolute no will or desire to take Kaz's or anybody else's job. All we wish for, is what in our opinion could be an even better game that would make us love it even more.
    As a final note, I would like to quote you my own dad: "be nice. Being nice is good. If you don't have anything positive to say, don't say nothing at all".
     
    Fat Tyre likes this.
  23. Zuku

    Zuku

    Messages:
    1,063
    Location:
    United States
    @JoaoSilva

    If PD were to start over I'd just say wipe the slate completely clean. Do like T10 did completely revamp the series. I know we keep saying take all premium tracks/cars etc, but me personally. It would serve them far better in the long run.

    Sometimes you have to do that to understand the quality part about it. People start to shake if I say start with 100 cars I'd say poll the GT players to find out which 100 should be put in same thing with tracks, but I feel focusing on a set number is better. While putting more focus on core values like everything people have complained about.
     
    RESHIRAM5 and JoaoSilva like this.
  24. sems4arsenal

    sems4arsenal Premium

    Messages:
    15,377
    Location:
    Egypt
    What? throw away 6 month work to model a car, hell no.

    The premiums are already good enough (they''ll probably get some texture upgrades etc) plus the physics engine is again very adequate (the could do with a new tyre model).
     
  25. JoaoSilva

    JoaoSilva

    Messages:
    1,498
    Location:
    Portugal
    Yeah , maybe a fresh start is just what GT needs.
     
  26. Zuku

    Zuku

    Messages:
    1,063
    Location:
    United States
    Hey no one said they just throw them in the garbage, but as has been stated there are like 7 different types of cars in GT take the one's people truly want, and put those 100 in same with Tracks withhold certain ones to be worked on. I mean cause from what I've read even if it's from this thread or others it's the core of the game that's making people unhappy.

    Hel* do what Rockstar did withhold Online to work on the offline portion making it the best.

    Things like adding penalty system, grid starts, flag system etc. Would go a longer way to restoring GT.

    I'll finish this later.
     
  27. sems4arsenal

    sems4arsenal Premium

    Messages:
    15,377
    Location:
    Egypt
    Ditch the standards, keep the premiums.
     
  28. Pseudopod

    Pseudopod

    Messages:
    1,077
    but it hasn't been at dead 60 fps since... forever ago. None of the PS3 installments are, but I don't remember what it was on PS2 or PS1.
     
  29. Griffith500

    Griffith500

    Messages:
    8,574
    PS2 was 60 Hz. GT1 had the HiFi mode; 60Hz on a reduced-detail SSR5. Otherwise, it was 30Hz on PS1. (Significantly less in GT2 at times; but it rendered at constant rate, just truncated all the calculations, causing time to appear to slow down)
     
  30. Zuku

    Zuku

    Messages:
    1,063
    Location:
    United States
    Hey that's an opinion to each his own, but it's very telling when memebers have pointed out that not all Premiums are created equal

    Edit will finish this phone acting up.