So Kaz, How are you going to convince the masses to purchase GT7?

Discussion in 'Kazunori Yamauchi Q&A' started by John_Marsten, Oct 15, 2014.

  1. Johnnypenso

    Johnnypenso Premium

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    Saying that Kaz is not lying about an installment in his own franchise is also an opinion isn't it?
     
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  2. BrodieBoi94

    BrodieBoi94

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    The point I made clear was that my conclusion is supported by evidence.

    I'm not attacking Imari, I appreciate his standpoint and am simply comparing mine to his.

    I am enjoying discussing this with Imari.
     
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  3. Johnnypenso

    Johnnypenso Premium

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    You have no evidence beyond something Kaz said in passing, through a translator. And that evidence is indirect as well. "Rendering" could simply be looking at a static image of a car, hardly what one would call working on GT7 in any objective sense.
     
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  4. TRLWNC7396

    TRLWNC7396

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    But, in order to "look at a render in GT7" would mean that there is more than just a "by the way, what does THIS do?" to the program, wouldn't it? ;)
     
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  5. BrodieBoi94

    BrodieBoi94

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    Yet I still do indeed have evidence as Kaz is the Head of PD, and he himself has claimed the game is being developed.

    But Imari's standpoint that it isn't being developed is not supported by any evidence, not even word of mouth.

    It's as simple as this, nowhere in this forum or on the web, can you or Imari point out evidence that GT7 ISNT being developed whereas I CAN AND HAVE provided evidence of it's developement.

    Who do you think knows more about what's going on at PD? Imari, or Kazunori Ymauchi?
     
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  6. Johnnypenso

    Johnnypenso Premium

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    That's exactly what I said. You have no evidence beyond this. Nothing concrete, no visual proof, just words on a screen. If you believe everything Kaz says and believe it was translated correctly and not out of context, then all you can say is they have rendered an image. Most people do not consider that "game development". I can render images on my new computer next week, does that mean I'm making a game?

    It boils down to whether one has faith in what Kaz says, without seeing any visual confirmation of whatever statements he's making. You still do, many of us don't.

    Do you have this same faith in other Sony executives or just Kaz?
     
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  7. BrodieBoi94

    BrodieBoi94

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    As I said. I have the evidence of Kazunori's statement regarding GT7 being developed. PD isn't just wasting time doing renderings on next-gen hardware just to say that it looks better.

    -We know that they are doing renderings on the PS4.

    -We know that Kazunori said GT7 is in development.

    Is it so difficult to believe that PD is actually working on GT7?

    Even if my evidence is only by way of Kaz's words from an interview, I still have more to go off of than you. Whereas you can't provide any evidence AT ALL other than YOUR OPINION to disprove what KAZ SAID.

    All I did was restate what HE said.

    I was going to follow up with a discussion about what we may be able to expect from a GT game on PS4, but I'm being told that there is no GT being developed for PS4.
     
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  8. Imari

    Imari

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    Are you actually trying to claim that an anecdote is superior evidence to say, actually seeing a demo of GT7 running? Why else would you use the word "especially" there?

    He had nothing to lie about before GT6 was complete either, but it didn't seem to slow him down. Or GT5 for that matter. How did you enjoy the matchmaking in GT5?

    Apart from the objective instances in which he has done so. I'm not sure I would say lying because that implies an intent to mislead, but he has certainly said things which later turned out to be untrue.

    https://www.gtplanet.net/kazunori-yamauchi-on-gran-turismo-6-standardpremium-cars/
    First we’ll be releasing the PS3 version for the PS3, which has a huge audience already, and we’ll be providing updates every month and DLCs every month.
    February didn't have an update, and I'm fairly sure there were at least a few months that didn't receive DLC. I'm taking DLC here to be some actual content not just an update, so a car, track, championships, something like that.

    https://www.gtplanet.net/gran-turismo-6-engine-sounds/
    GTP: Regarding car damage, will that be roughly the same that we see currently inGT5?
    KY: “Yes.”
    He means no. There's no longer any physical deformation, it's purely textural.

    https://www.gtplanet.net/kazunori-yamauchi-tamir-moscovici-interview-jff-2013/
    In regards to the course maker, it is cutting it really close as to whether or not it will make it in time for day one or not for GT6. It’s definitely going to be there, but whether or not it will be available from day one I’m just not really sure right now.
    Obviously this wasn't true. I don't see any way a feature could be so close to ready that they thought they might be able to squeeze it into the release version and then still have it not ready a year later. At best, he's exaggerating.

    https://www.gtplanet.net/gran-turis...e-kazunori-yamauchis-2012-gtplanet-interview/
    My perspective is that the sounds in Gran Turismo are just too real. With the recording method we use, we use a dyno and put the load on, and the sound we produce is just too accurate.
    This is and was grade-A bollocks, and we all know it. The samples that they recorded may have been spectacularly accurate, but the way they sound in game is anything but. He's either exaggerating, lying, or spectactularly obtuse. He goes on to admit later on the Pitstop blog that the sounds aren't really very good.

    http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2013-11-29-kazunori-yamauchi-profile
    It's dreaming that can land him in some awkward predicaments. In recent years, Yamauchi's been big on promises he can't always deliver: witness the long, slow and sometimes confused introduction of car damage to the series, first posited as a downloadable add-on for Gran Turismo 5 Prologue before half-heartedly making its way into the full-fat game. See the PR handlers wince as he starts talking about Gran Turismo 7 before work on 6 is anywhere near complete - and marvel as he then says the first PS4 entry in the series could be released as soon as next year.
    It would seem I'm not the only one who thinks that the man talks before he thinks sometimes.

    https://www.gtplanet.net/kazunori-yamauchis-best-interview-ever/
    • Kazunori laughed at the notion of a 2010 release date for Gran Turismo 5, and said it will be released sooner than expected.
    GT5 released at the end of 2010. He thought that releasing in 2010 at all was laughable. I guess the infamous "we can release any time we want" quote goes here too, saves me digging that one up later.

    http://wot.motortrend.com/ces-2010-...date-from-creator-kazunori-yamauchi-7216.html
    Will users be able to set up car clubs and racing leagues?Yes, they will. But I'm sorry but I can't elaborate much at this point.
    With relation to GT5. Never happened, and presumably never will happen now that support has been dropped.


    ~13:30 And of course we will be providing new tracks every month by DLC.
    I speak Japanese well enough to know that Translator-san translated that accurately. Of course, it didn't happen.

    http://gamingbolt.com/gran-turismo-6-course-maker-allows-for-2500-square-mile-tracks
    I won't go into the Course Maker size debacle too much, where it went from 100x100km to 50x50km to 20x20km, partly because we still don't know how big it will actually be, and partly because it's not unusual for these sort of things to happen as a feature is being developed. It does demonstrate though how Kazunori is willing to put definite numbers on features before it's fully established that the feature will be capable of that.



    That's not how it works. I'm not claiming that it isn't in development, I'm merely pointing out the flaws in your claim that it is.

    See this:

    That's a factual claim.

    I'm well within the bounds of what is reasonable on asking for your proof for this, and when your proof is "because Dude X said so", and Dude X has been in my experience somewhat mixed in the accuracy of his statements, I don't think it's unreasonable that there is some skepticism about the validity of that particular statement.

    Again, I'm not saying that it's not under development. I'm saying that I don't think it's reasonable to state as a certainty that it is on that information alone.

    Be careful what you claim my stance is. I haven't said anything of the sort.

    Quote me where I have, if you can. I can see where I've said several times that GT7 may or may not be under development, but that I'm not willing to take Kazunori Yamauchi's word for it.

    There is more than two possible positions here. You think that just because I don't agree with your statement that GT7 is under development, the only possible position left for me to assume is that GT7 isn't under development.

    You're missing that I can adopt the position that I don't know whether GT7 is under development.

    Reading all the responses that you've made to @Johnnypenso makes it clear that you really don't understand this. Once you understand what my actual position is, then perhaps you'll be better able to debate it.


    ==========

    Omega Boost. I played it for a couple hours, it wasn't that fun.

    Why mention this if you don't think it excuses him from doing a crappy job?

    Pretty much everyone has to do stuff for work at some point or another that they'd rather not. It sucks. But a professional does the best job he can, takes the money and moves on. A child does the bare minimum and then moans about how hard it was.

    I don't really care whether GT6 was something forced on PD by Sony. Polyphony have a job to do, and they're getting paid to do it. If they do a bad job, it's not Sony's fault, it's Polyphony's.

    Whether it's Sony or Polyphony calling the shots (and remember that to a certain extent Kazunori Yamauchi is Sony as well, so he's hardly at their mercy), they have a certain obligation to provide their customers with a quality product.

    At least you're confident instead of certain. That I can agree with.

    I also think it's highly likely that it's under development, because if it isn't that's probably game over for Polyphony. But I reserve the right to take exception to people making concrete statements for which I deem there to be insufficient evidence.

    It's really hard to know. If you look at GT6 as the product of 3 years of work after GT5 1.01, then the lack of content seems about right. Or at least in the right ballpark.
     
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  9. BrodieBoi94

    BrodieBoi94

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    I understand your standpoint, I understand that your implications are based off of Kaz's record of inconsistencies regarding release dates and content relating to GT games.

    But the subject I am speaking of is the DEVELOPMENT. Not promises he's made about what will be in GT7. You guys are overthinking this as if I said something ridiculous such as, Porsche will DEFINITELY BE IN GT7.

    When has Kaz ever lied about a game being DEVELOPED?

    Development has a multitude of stages it can be as simple as rendering pictures, or even typing up or discussing ideas. Kaz has shared with us some plans that He and PD have for GT7. Plans are part of development.

    Like I have stated a million times he also SAID that GT7 is in development. My standpoint does not relate to any promises that have been made for GT7.

    The fact is GT7 is being developed.
     
    Last edited: Oct 27, 2014
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  10. Imari

    Imari

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    Talk about your moving goalposts.

    He's probably never lied about a game being developed. Then again, there's not exactly a lot of opportunities either so maybe he's just never had the chance.

    Kazunori Yamauchi makes statements about the Gran Turismo franchise that sometimes turn out to be untrue. There is precedent for this, and I've outlined some of them for you above so I take it that you don't disagree with that.

    I'm going to take exception to the use of "lie" as the default verb, too. I'm not sold that he lies, in the sense that he's intentionally speaking misinformation. But he does say things that later turn out to be inaccurate, so at the very least he shows poor judgement in saying things before they are fully decided. Eg. The course maker area thing.

    I don't think "well he's never lied about this specific thing before, so he must be telling the truth" is sound logic. He's human, he lie if he wants. Or he can have been misled by other people. Or whatever.

    If it was a person who you otherwise knew nothing about, you'd assume that they were telling the truth, because on the whole people do tend to tell the truth unless they have reason not to.

    Kazunori Yamauchi, on the other hand, we do have prior information on. We do know that sometimes what he says ends up not being correct. For whatever reason, some of which may not actually be his fault, but he's the one saying them. His word on the Gran Turismo series cannot be trusted without reference to some external evidence. As you can see in the Eurogamer quote I dug up, he's prone to make big promises that he can't always deliver. I don't think it's much of a stretch to extend that to making big statements that aren't entirely true yet.

    Have you never fibbed to someone that you'd started a project when actually you hadn't quite got round to it yet? It's fairly common for most people, you're pinched for time and you just tell a bit of a fib knowing that you're going to start soon and probably no one will be able to tell the difference.

    Again, and to be super clear, I'm not saying this is what has happened. I'm saying that it's a possibility, one that based on Kazunori Yamauchi's previous actions is somewhat more likely than if we were talking about your Average Joe.

    It may be the case that everything he has said regarding GT7's development is perfectly true. But I don't see how you can be sure of that. You're assuming that it is, and then demanding that everyone else make that same assumption also.

    You can make whatever assumptions you like, but you can't make other people assume what you assume.

    I've shared with you my definition of what actually counts as development.

    By your definition it would seem GT7 development was started sometime in 2000, possibly earlier, because that's when the assets were being created. Or possibly when they started GT2, and they realised that they had an ongoing series that might make it to 7 and they talked a bit about the cool things they might be able to do in 15 years or so. Or maybe just from 2005, when they started creating premium models that they had every intention of carrying over to the next generation anyway. Where do you draw the line?

    If you make it vague enough you can stretch it back as far as you like. That's why I prefer to make the definition actual code produced specifically for GT7 (ie. no standard cars, no brainstorming, no pencil sketches on the backs of envelopes). We haven't seen any of that.

    Detailed design documents would probably suffice, but "here's a list of stuff we thought it would be cool to have in GT7" doesn't count to me. If they haven't actually sat down and planned out what they're going to be able to fit onto the hardware and within their projected development times then they haven't really started in my opinion, they're still just dickering around at the starting gate.

    The fact is that you can't come up with any objective evidence for this other than the word of a man who is known for his inaccurate statements with regards to his game series.

    You are making a concrete statement. Compare and contrast to the statement that I have made:

    Simple, yes? It says almost exactly the same thing, but avoids the concrete assertion that GT7 is absolutely, no questions asked under development.

    You don't seem to be able to state a solid opinion without needing to turn it into a fact. Why is that?
     
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  11. PESCAROLOP902

    PESCAROLOP902

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    Well then your not loyal to GT and should go to forza because your ungrateful.
     
  12. Shirrako

    Shirrako

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    you're jumping from GT7 to GT6 updates, I don't think you know what you want to discuss at this point.
     
    Last edited: Oct 27, 2014
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  13. BrodieBoi94

    BrodieBoi94

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    I appreciate your example about how an individual can SAY that he's started a project when in fact he hasn't. I agree and it DOES DEPEND ON THE INDIVIDUAL.

    I also agree that technically GT7 could have been in development since PD began making premium models, since they could have had seven entries in mind, but that would just defend my statement further. It's the word of mouth from Kaz' that let's us know the fact that another game is being developed.

    I am not one to believe everything that Kaz says based on his record, but within the context of an installment being DEVELOPED, Kaz and PD have been truthful.

    But, the instances when Kaz has given "inaccuracies" regarding the GT series aren't related to new installments being developed. They're related to what the installments' features will beand when those installments would be released.

    I'll provide sources supporting that GT7 is in development...
    http://m.ign.com/articles/2014/06/27/gran-turismo-7-in-development-wont-release-in-2014

    http://www.hallels.com/articles/869...know-more-about-release-date-news-updates.htm

    Now to back up PD being truthful in relation to new installments being developed there is also this, regarding GT6 being developed...
    http://m.ign.com/articles/2013/05/23/gran-turismo-6-everything-you-need-to-know

    I tried to find more articles related to the previous games (GT5, GT4, ETC) being in development, but I couldn't.

    My point is that PD doesn't lie about one of their games being in development. So we can believe it when Kaz says that "GT7 is in development."

    Now if he stated that GT7 would be available by December 2014, then I would be in the same boat as you because their record for stating release dates is bad.

    Or if Kaz said GT7 will have a livery editor, track creator, and all "standards would be made into premiums via free monthly dlc, then once again I'm in the same boat as you.

    And just to clear things up I didn't intend to force anything that I believed to be factual on anyone who believed otherwise (that it was an opinion instead of a fact). I see that I really must be careful what I post since everything is so critical.

    Everyone on gtplanet are individuals who can make their own decisions, and conclusions, and I don't jump on other individuals' opinions, decisions, or said facts unless there is actually evidence whether visual, verbal, or tangible that they are SURELY wrong.
     
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  14. Imari

    Imari

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    Taku is the most famous around here for some reason, but Kaz said it at the Siverstone GT6 announce event as well. Which was before Taku said it, even.

    Source.

    Or is this more "factual" information, like the rest of the "factual" information that's floating around in this thread.

    Do we even know that there's going to be a 2.0 release, or are you assuming based on GT5?

    I'm using GT6 updates (among other things) as evidence that not everything that Kazunori Yamauchi says is necessarily true.

    Don't tell me you're going to be like @BrodieBoi94 and demand that I find instances of him falsifying information about GT7 before we can move on with this.

    Kazunori Yamauchi sometimes lets his mouth get ahead of him and says stuff that isn't necessarily true. I don't think that's particularly debatable, but if you want to then there's a whole list of incidents up there that you can have a go at.

    So having established that in some cases he's known to make statements that turn out not to be accurate, I don't see why there's a problem applying this to his statements about the development of GT7.

    Yes, it's probably in development. No, it's not a fact. Neither you nor @BrodieBoi94 quite seem to get the difference between a fact and an opinion.

    ===========

    Cherry picking.

    Oh wow. Articles that cite Kazunori Yamauchi as their source.

    Are you even trying?

    Your point is that Polyphony has not to date lied about one of their games being in development.

    My point is that their spokesman is known for making inaccurate statements.

    One of these things makes it more likely that a statement is accurate. One of them makes it less likely that a statement is accurate.

    Does either of them guarantee that the statement is accurate?

    Yes, I'm being pedantic, because you insist upon formulating your opinion as a fact.

    Good for you.

    Choose your words more carefully next time.
     
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  15. BrodieBoi94

    BrodieBoi94

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    I guess you failed to acknowledge the difference between which of kaz's past statements have been inaccurate, and which ones have been accurate, making a decision that since some of his statements are false then ALL of them are MOST LIKELY FALSE.
     
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  16. Shirrako

    Shirrako

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    A full GT game and GT updates are 2 completely different things, I don't remember GT6 being delayed, it was announced rather late and released on time, sure the DLC is a mess but it's free, you would pay a good extra £30 for a season pass with other games to get the DLC (maybe that would speed up the DLC development, just maybe).
    Never said you were wrong about the GT6 updates, you're right when it comes down to the monthy DLC promises, however that was not what i was discussing.

    GT updates are a mess, but we were discussing GT7 development, you jumped completely off topic, you failed to prove your point, you were asking for proof that GT7 is in development, Kaz never did give out false information regarding development of previous GT games.

    Don't jump to updates, I'm talking about full game releases, if you can't prove your point then don't reply with statements that have no connection to what I'm talking about.

    Kauznori: We're working on GT7

    Imari

    : [​IMG]
     
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  17. TokoTurismo

    TokoTurismo

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    Nvm, it's not worth it.
     
    Last edited: Oct 27, 2014
  18. TRLWNC7396

    TRLWNC7396

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    Yeah, this whole thing has gone thoroughly over the top.

    What were we talking about again? ;)
     
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  19. BrodieBoi94

    BrodieBoi94

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    I think that GT7 will be an amazing looking game of course, but I don't think PD can convince me they'll bring anything revolutionary to the series.

    I have enjoyed the whole series, despite the mistakes they have made. But since we have a more powerful, and "user friendly" game system now, perhaps PD will utilize this to at least improve A.I, Physics, Online Match Making, and a more adjustable arcade mode, and maybe add more customization features.

    They are moving in the right direction as far as customizing cars also which is a big problem for many.
     
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  20. Tornado

    Tornado

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    [​IMG]

    Probably a pretty safe conclusion to draw that they never actually did much of anything with that; despite reaffirming for two years that they were totally working on it, honest.
     
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  21. Imari

    Imari

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    I haven't said that either. I've said that he's made false statements in the past, so the possibility exists that any given states that he makes could be false as well.

    How is this so hard for you to understand?



    I see you're going the same way as @BrodieBoi94.


    I'm not jumping to anything. And my point is not to be proved, I'm refuting your statement, not proving my own.

    I have provided evidence that Kazunori has made inaccurate statements about Gran Turismo in the past.
    You think that somehow statements about development are in a separate category to statements about features and updates.
    I think that they are all the same big category, that category being "about Gran Turismo".

    And to be honest, I don't think it even matters. A person who tells falsehoods is a person who tells falsehoods, regardless of topic. It's about being willing to make false statements, not about what he has or hasn't decided to make false statements about yet.

    Again, the thing that both you and Brodie seem to miss is that I'm not claiming that GT7 isn't in development. To the contrary, I've said that it probably is. I've said that your assertion that it's definitely in development is unfounded, based as it is on the word of a man known to make false statements.

    If you two want to cherry pick examples of Kazunori not making false statements, I can't stop you.
    If it turned out that he had made false statements about game development, you could always claim that he's never made false statements about GT7. Or that he's never made false statements about a game on PS4. Or whatever.

    You're quite happy to pick the data to fit the conclusion that you want, which is that GT7 is under development. It's not good enough for you to say "Yeah, it's probably under development and has been for some time, but we're yet to see any proof of that".

    You both somehow have this need to make it a concrete statement. I don't understand why.
     
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  22. Shirrako

    Shirrako

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    Never heard of this. however, since it's a PSP game then it's safe to assume that this was renamed to GT PSP so they did do something with it.

    From Wikipedia GT PSP Page: Gran Turismo (グランツーリスモ Guran Tsūrisumo?, also previously known as Gran Turismo 4 Mobile.

    When a GT7 trailer gets released Imari will be like "They made it yesterday". :lol:
     
    Last edited: Oct 28, 2014
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  23. Shirrako

    Shirrako

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    Double post, delete.
     
  24. Imari

    Imari

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    You're displaying the fact that you still don't understand the concept. Or my position.

    I'll put this in big letters in the hope that size will aid comprehension:
    I do not claim that GT7 is not under development.

    I believe that they are developing it, but I don't claim that there's actual proof. If they release a GT7 trailer in the near future then that would be acceptable, and I would happily admit that those particular statements by Kazunori Yamauchi were probably not false.

    There are three statements that can be made about the development of GT7:
    1. It's happening.
    2. It's not happening.
    3. I don't know. <=(This is me!)

    Why is it so hard for you to comprehend that someone might admit to not having enough information to form a factually accurate interpretation of a situation? I believe that they're developing GT7, but I don't know.

    You and Brodie claim to know. You claim that it is a fact that GT7 is being developed as we speak. A claim which is feel is not well founded given the evidence you have presented so far.

    But I think first we need to get around the problem that you simply appear to be unable to read and understand the words that I write. Then perhaps a rational discussion can appear, once you stop flinging straw men at me.


    P.S.

    Feel free to back this statement up at any time, as well.
     
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  25. RacerPaul

    RacerPaul

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    Aaah, hahahahaaaa! :lol:

    Loyal to GT?

    That is a weird outlook you have there
     
  26. TRLWNC7396

    TRLWNC7396

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    Okay, Okay, you've made your point. So, the entire last two pages were aboutsomeone saying "Probably" and "Should" instead of "here is some evidence". Man, you are stuck on details.

    I don't disagree with you. You have made an excellent point.

    But....

    Can we give up on the "I have to have concrete evidence first" idea?

    No, I have never said I have concrete evidence. But, even you admit that there is a "probably" and "should" here.

    Can we move on now?

    I, too, will believe it when I see it.

    But I'm not going to scream "Show me the results!" before I say "probably"..... ;)
     
  27. Tornado

    Tornado

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    Nope. GT PSP was a dramatically different game from GT4 Mobile, nothing at all like what was announced in 2004; and didn't even come out until 5 and a half years later.
     
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  28. TRLWNC7396

    TRLWNC7396

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    It doesn't mean they DID NOT work on it. It just means that they changed focus.

    Again.... :(
     
    Last edited: Oct 28, 2014
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  29. Shirrako

    Shirrako

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    Then stop asking people for evidence.

    BrodieBoi: The fact is GT7 is being developed.
    Imari: you can't come up with any objective evidence for this

    Waste of time, have a good day.
     
    Last edited: Oct 28, 2014
    Tenacious D likes this.
  30. Shirrako

    Shirrako

    Messages:
    1,391
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    What @TRLWNC7396 said, the game went through changes, that's what happens to certain games, they worked on GT4 Mobile and upgraded that title to GT PSP.
     
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