SRF on seasonals

[KimiHR]

"Guys, did the licenses have the srf always on (locked)? Ive been alway frow gt5, and today started to try to gold them... but i dont remember the srf being on..."

The answer is, yes

 

[Lewis_Hamilton_]

Yes, exactly, SRF/off is like driving on marbles at 60mph.

And I have absolutely floored it, past an apex, at 60, in a FR pony car, and I'm telling you that it's not all that easy to break traction.

SRF/off is NOT realistic, even at 200-300 hp.

I've been driving for almost 30 years, you?

How the heck you haven't killed anyone on the road is beyond me 👎

From someone who has actual track experience, I can tell you, like everyone else has, that you are wrong, and that SRF is a load of baloney.

Surely you must wonder why you are a one man Army in this argument. There are numerous members on this site who race for real, and I cannot think of a single one who has ever agreed that SRF is realistic.

Give up.

 

[nowcontrol]

Ha, I don't even drive for real, but have been a passenger at 1XXmph speeds, also have driven a few cars in lessons years ago and even i know that SRF off is far more realistic than on.

 

[Ills1999]

How the heck you haven't killed anyone on the road is beyond me 👎

From someone who has actual track experience, I can tell you, like everyone else has, that you are wrong, and that SRF is a load of baloney.

Surely you must wonder why you are a one man Army in this argument. There are numerous members on this site who race for real, and I cannot think of a single one who has ever agreed that SRF is realistic.

Give up.

This forum is full of people who think that GT is 'realistic', never mind that the only sensations that a person processes in GT are visual and aural, unlike in the real world.

Tires grip, they don't break loose at the slightest application of throttle.

And again, PD doesn't seem to agree with all the self-proclaimed pro racers.

And further, decades of experience driving actual cars, with the same type of tires and power, at the same speeds, performing the same maneuvers informs me that the traction modeling in GT is suspect, to say the least.

I'm not saying that a person won't lose control if they try to take a flat, tight 90 degree turn at triple digits, or floor a 700hp beast on exit of same. I'm saying that soft street tires, installed on mildly tuned cars, in dry weather, stick like glue. It's not so easy to break traction. I could not care less about your "actual track-day experience".

The game acts like you're driving on moss, in the shade, in the rain, with bald tires.

Until SRF is on, then suddenly it almost performs the same way it would in real life.

No, I don't wonder why I'm a one man army. Everyone knows that forums are full of people who like to imagine that they are better in some way than others. It seems to be a point of pride to be able to cut quick lap times in this game with unrealistically low levels of traction, and it's to that pride/boastfulness which I attribute the group-think that I see on display here.

Give up? Are you kidding? Why? Because I hold a contrary opinion?

Ha, I don't even drive for real, but have been a passenger at 1XXmph speeds, also have driven a few cars in lessons years ago and even i know that SRF off is far more realistic than on.

I suspect there is a LOT of this, as well.

 

[Giulietta73]

I guess your cars all had steel wheels, or maybe you have an insensitive bottom. 👍

The only Steel Wheels on my car is the Stones' cd in the cd player.

Been racing with all aids off for too long to notice whether my bottom is insensitive or not - though I do end up racing by the seat of my pants in every race.

 

[Ills1999]

 

[Lewis_Hamilton_]

Give up? Are you kidding? Why? Because I hold a contrary opinion?

Not because of that, because you've ignored factul evidence that has already been presented. Everyone is entitled to an opinion, but when the game maker himself, who races professionally and driven more cars than we could dream of, and other professional race drivers, and car magazine reviewers, all match Comfort Mediums/Softs as being along the lines of real life high grade sports tires, shows that GT5 generally offers too much grip in all other circumstances (so that would be Sports tyres, or SRF).

I remember the telementary readings from when I took a Lamborghini Gallardo around a tight race circuit, about the same size as Tsukuba is. The most the G force meter was peaking was 1.1G's. A stock Gallardo on stock tires with all aids off in GT5 can easily peak at 1.5G's and more. That's too much grip, SRF only makes that worse.

 

[Crozzlow]

In the spirit of this lively debate...and, not trying to grandstand. I must say that I think that comparing GT to actual race car driving is barking up the wrong tree.

 

[Exorcet]

I remember the telementary readings from when I took a Lamborghini Gallardo around a tight race circuit, about the same size as Tsukuba is. The most the G force meter was peaking was 1.1G's.

Sounds like you may have been getting averaged or low frequency measurements

http://www.motortrend.com/features/...best_handling_car_track_testing/photo_14.html

Remember the one in game is perfect and will update as fast as the physics do. The real life g meter might not.

And while you're right that SRF and sports tires have too much grip, part of Ills' argument is about the feel of the tires, and on the risk of interpreting that incorrectly, I'd say he's right. GT5 has a terrible tire model. Simple grip multipliers that sometimes have their on/off switches flicked once the limit is reached. Sports tires, while creating too much sustained g, actually behave better than comfort tires do in some cases.

I have no idea where the idea that driving with SRF off is like driving on marbles come from, unless he happened to pick one of the poorly modeled cars in game, but GT doesn't really have any option that will give you real grip levels and real limit handling.

 

[watermelon punch]

 

[Ills1999]

Not because of that, because you've ignored factul evidence that has already been presented. Everyone is entitled to an opinion, but when the game maker himself, who races professionally and driven more cars than we could dream of, and other professional race drivers, and car magazine reviewers, all match Comfort Mediums/Softs as being along the lines of real life high grade sports tires, shows that GT5 generally offers too much grip in all other circumstances (so that would be Sports tyres, or SRF).

I remember the telementary readings from when I took a Lamborghini Gallardo around a tight race circuit, about the same size as Tsukuba is. The most the G force meter was peaking was 1.1G's. A stock Gallardo on stock tires with all aids off in GT5 can easily peak at 1.5G's and more. That's too much grip, SRF only makes that worse.

Yes, why would the developer tell a falsehood about the capabilities of his creation? It's not like he stands to profit from it or anything.

Now you're telling us that the little G-meter on the screen is accurate.

 

[NCRthree]

Just wanted to address the purist snob elitist attitude that was touched on.

Personally I love to read this forum and get ideas to liven up my GT life. So I've gotten some great ideas to make GT5 seem and feel more sim like. I only share my experiences of using no aids, cockpit view or no tuning because someone else did and it got my attention. Not in some elitist manner that belittles someone who uses aids or whatever but from an attitude of "Hey this is really cool, you should try it!"

 

[Ills1999]

Sounds like you may have been getting averaged or low frequency measurements

http://www.motortrend.com/features/...best_handling_car_track_testing/photo_14.html

Remember the one in game is perfect and will update as fast as the physics do. The real life g meter might not.

And while you're right that SRF and sports tires have too much grip, part of Ills' argument is about the feel of the tires, and on the risk of interpreting that incorrectly, I'd say he's right. GT5 has a terrible tire model. Simple grip multipliers that sometimes have their on/off switches flicked once the limit is reached. Sports tires, while creating too much sustained g, actually behave better than comfort tires do in some cases.

I have no idea where the idea that driving with SRF off is like driving on marbles come from, unless he happened to pick one of the poorly modeled cars in game, but GT doesn't really have any option that will give you real grip levels and real limit handling.

That's the core of the argument. My experience is a LOT more feedback and forgiveness with tires. I find street tires on street cars to be really sticky and flexible. While in GT, Comfort Softs (which SHOULD be grippier than 'average' street tires) are completely unforgiving. Which isn't realistic.

Many people describe SRF as a force which grabs the vehicle, just as it's ready to slide, and point it back in the right direction. To me, SRF feels like sidewall deflection. Maybe it does give a bit more than a realistic level of grip, but it's far less over on that side of the line than SRF/off is on the other side of it.

Does it take more skill to tiptoe around on tires which provide very little feedback? Surely. But it doesn't explain why PD is choosing to stick with the forced SRF/on settings in either the licensing or the seasonals, in the face of an onslaught of criticism from the "hardcore" fans of the series.

Until shown otherwise, I tend to view it as evidence that their private thoughts don't quite mesh with their stated PR.

 

[DiersZee1]

@ Ills1999, what cars have you driving for 28+yrs IRL?

Also what tire wear were they?

As for SRF being forced on or not, IRL this technology was not in productions cars like they are today. Even then, SRF ON is not going to get you around a track quicker as it handicaps entry into corners and exit speeds if the system is not sophisticated.

Back in 1999 to 2004 Mustangs, the *EDIT: Traction Control in mustangs were dangerous IRL! Many cases where drivers reported the car felt as if it had stalled when initiating a left turn at an intersection. Even today's technology is not equal for all and I turn it off every time I start the car.

So to put SRF on every seasonal lately is bogus as it really does not reflect older cars correctly. Please dont be like our resident spabber Exorcet.

We have the OPTION/RIGHTS IRL to turn off such features as SRF.

 

[ShiftingGears]

I think its a bit of a joke, to be honest. PD had no good reason to force drivers aids on during the NASCAR races (ASM) which served no purpose besides crippling the speed of the car. Bit of a shame.

 

[sparkytooth]

I think its a bit of a joke, to be honest. PD had no good reason to force drivers aids on during the NASCAR races (ASM) which served no purpose besides crippling the speed of the car. Bit of a shame.

That's why I never golded that Nascar Special Event (the one where you exit the pits).

 

[watermelon punch]

I thought it was Traction Control (TC) that was available in real life, not SRF (Skid Recovery Force)...

 

[DiersZee1]

I thought it was Traction Control (TC) that was available in real life, not SRF (Skid Recovery Force)...

Today? You have Nannies for everything in some cars.

*Edit earlier post to name the correct nammy. TC for Traction Control.

 

[playnthru]

Um no, you're wrong. In the real world, your car doesn't feel like you're driving on marbles all the time. You can punch it, toss the car sideways etc, and it will stick for quite some time before it breaks loose, if ever.

Out of curiosity, how long have you been driving?

About as long as you have been alive honestly...Legally? Since I was 16, which is now over 25 years!
Illegally, longer than that, wanna compare experience... I have millions of real OTR (that's over the road) miles under my belt, in, rain, snow, sleet, hail... I have been a Class A truck driver, tow operator, delivery driver as well done some amateur racing!

Now about SRF and how wrong I am? Seems nobody here agrees with you, why you ask...Well it's because you're wrong.

Hell, I have been playing GT games for more than half your life.

My real car has has TC, it's the first thing I turn off every time I drive...Hell I can roast the tires with it on anyways??

 

[Ills1999]

About as long as you have been alive honestly...Legally? Since I was 16, which is now over 25 years!
Illegally, longer than that, wanna compare experience... I have millions of real OTR (that's over the road) miles under my belt, in, rain, snow, sleet, hail... I have been a Class A truck driver, tow operator, delivery driver as well done some amateur racing!

Now about SRF and how wrong I am? Seems nobody here agrees with you, why you ask...Well it's because you're wrong.

Hell, I have been playing GT games for more than half your life.

My real car has has TC, it's the first thing I turn off every time I drive...Hell I can roast the tires with it on anyways??

Quick math shows that I'm older than you (1999 doesn't refer to my birth year, or my graduation year)

As far as following the herd mentality, you're more than welcome to find solace in that.

I think you're confusing my argument about the lousy grip modeling with an advocacy for real life SRF.

I simply find SRF/on to be closer to 'real' than SRF/off.

@ Ills1999, what cars have you driving for 28+yrs IRL? Plenty. I've owned about 30 cars so far, I'd estimate.

Also what tire wear were they? Street tires, not even necessarily 'soft' grippy street tires.

As for SRF being forced on or not, IRL this technology was not in productions cars like they are today. Even then, SRF ON is not going to get you around a track quicker as it handicaps entry into corners and exit speeds if the system is not sophisticated.

Back in 1999 to 2004 Mustangs, the *EDIT: Traction Control in mustangs were dangerous IRL! Many cases where drivers reported the car felt as if it had stalled when initiating a left turn at an intersection. Even today's technology is not equal for all and I turn it off every time I start the car. I just think SRF/on feels more like a real car, that the care reacts as expected with that setting on.

So to put SRF on every seasonal lately is bogus as it really does not reflect older cars correctly. Please dont be like our resident spabber Exorcet. Why is it on the license tests?

We have the OPTION/RIGHTS IRL to turn off such features as SRF. TT's are ALL forced SRF/off.

 

[DiersZee1]

Plenty. I've owned about 30 cars so far, I'd estimate.

Street tires, not even necessarily 'soft' grippy street tires.

I just think SRF/on feels more like a real car, that the care reacts as expected with that setting on.

Why is it on the license tests?

TT's are ALL forced SRF/off.

Out of the 30 or so estimated cars owned, you not once ever had 1 car that get sideways on you when having a spirited drive or smoking the rear tires in 4th gear? ...if so, then may I conclude that they have all been FWD cars or RWD cars with under 150HP at the motor?

SRF makes it difficult to get a car to step out and tuning a car for seasonals with SRF will not work. SRF lets you get away with almost anything. A real car will NOT let you get away with anything unless it was already a forgiving car from the manufacture. Plus remember, not all cars have ECU's that correct for going over limit in grip. That is in the drivers real hands IRL.

Because they had it during the license test does not define PD believes their formula is in error. That is an presumption.

Yes T/T currently allows us to have it off, so does this not defeat your point of why PD you believe is using it for seasonals? I mean why would they run two different philosophy? Two managers fighting it out at PD? ... come on.

Grip and ET's in Seasonals should be based on player's ability to learn the edge of grip, braking points and weight transfers. Not a computer aided simulation which teaching nothing in those values. If you feel it is an invisable wall and we are all just bouncing off it for just plain ol madning pleasure this is not correct. We should be able to learn what the tires will give us and not give us on said tracks.

Sorry but idea is a bit backwards from Real Life. TC, ESP, SRF, or what ever = Nannies....not everyone keeps them on IRL. I personally have the pleasure of smoking the tires at the cost of good bucks.

 

[Ills1999]

Out of the 30 or so estimated cars owned, you not once ever had 1 car that get sideways on you when having a spirited drive or smoking the rear tires in 4th gear? Of course I have, when I'VE wanted it to do so. I've had some cars which have been considered notoriously tail-happy, 93 5.0 that didn't get as loose in the rain as the Miatas in that 380 pp seasonal. I've had a Jeep wrangler on 2 wheels on more than one occasion ...if so, then may I conclude that they have all been FWD cars or RWD cars with under 150HP at the motor?

SRF makes it difficult to get a car to step outnot really and tuning a car for seasonals with SRF will not work.which brings us to the point of the ridiculous lengths 'tuners' go to in order to get the cars to go in the direction they want, I've been perusing the tuning forum for quite some time and the tuning solutions are unreal and wouldn't work in the real world. Some tuners admit as much. SRF lets you get away with almost anything. Not really.A real car will NOT let you get away with anything unless it was already a forgiving car from the manufacture. Every car I've ever driven must have been more forgiving than every car I've used in GT5... hmmmPlus remember, not all cars have ECU's that correct for going over limit in grip. That is in the drivers real hands IRL.

Because they had it during the license test does not define PD believes their formula is in error. That is an presumption.

Yes T/T currently allows us to have it off, so does this not defeat your point of why PD you believe is using it for seasonals? I mean why would they run two different philosophy? Two managers fighting it out at PD? ... come on. Completely different group of users for TT's and Seasonals, with TT's, it kinda makes sense to have the most unforgiving setups mandated and measure everyone by that standard, with seasonals, it kinda makes sense that PD would want people to jump in and feel that the cars behave in a manner close to real.

Grip and ET's in Seasonals should be based on player's ability to learn the edge of grip, braking points and weight transfers. Not a computer aided simulation which teaching nothing in those values. If you feel it is an invisable wall and we are all just bouncing off it for just plain ol madning pleasure this is not correct. We should be able to learn what the tires will give us and not give us on said tracks.

Sorry but idea is a bit backwards from Real Life. TC, ESP, SRF, or what ever = Nannies....not everyone keeps them on IRL. I personally have the pleasure of smoking the tires at the cost of good bucks.

I think you're missing the point entirely.

SRF/on = realistic

SRF/off = unrealistic

 

[watermelon punch]

I think we're well aware of a certain lone party's opinion on the matter. It should be quite clear nobody else is going to be convinced of this.

It's been pointed out a few times... This really has little to do with having a choice.

 

[JoRdY105]

I think you're missing the point entirely.

SRF/on = realistic

SRF/off = unrealistic

Everyone has their own opinion. And in my opinion having pushed a car to the limits in real life, and playing gt5 since it came out, that I think they feel more realistic with it off

Stop trying to force your opinion like its fact!

 

[citycar]

Seems like PD wants to shoo away the racing sim crowd and just keep the dumb crowd because they are easier to please (and don't understand simple concepts like SRF even though it is described in the help tabs in game...). Am very disappointed in PD's approach. It is now highly unlikely that I'll out lay for gt6 and may not even bother with PS4 as its a gimped release of PS anyway.

 

[Exorcet]

Seems like PD wants to shoo away the racing sim crowd and just keep the dumb crowd because they are easier to please (and don't understand simple concepts like SRF even though it is described in the help tabs in game...). Am very disappointed in PD's approach. It is now highly unlikely that I'll out lay for gt6 and may not even bother with PS4 as its a gimped release of PS anyway.

There's honestly no way of justifying it. Keeping SRF as optional would be enough to entice less hardcore drivers. It literally makes no sense, and I agree that issues like this make me worry for the next game.

GT6 (on PS4) is probably the last chance I'll give PD. If that is not truly a simulator, then I guess GT is not a series for me.

 

[DiersZee1]

I think you're missing the point entirely.

SRF/on = realistic

SRF/off = unrealistic

Not at all.

Have you even attempted the British Lightweight Seasonal? You dont need an Elise with Aero package. It all boils down to throttle, brake and steering control. You learn more about control then you will ever with the current Seasonals.

As for it being realistic?

You are not far from Laguna or Infinion...go out there when they do track rentals to see how many people do 180's or 360' or venture into the dirt as they search the limits of the threshold of the rubber compound have to offer them. That is real.

I find you contradict yourself alot on this thread. One minute you say you cant spin tires or slide a car and the next you say you can. BTW in 1993, those tires you had were rubbish on the 5.0. My '12 5.0 comes stock with 220 tread wear and I can still slide it when exiting a corner in 3rd gear via drift.

Going to simply say that you must drive like a saint. Which is not a bad thing mind you. But, with all the folks ive raced with IRL, there were always a few that never got it or they never pushed it and were always slower. Never asked if it was a fear thing or a maturity thing, but what ever.

Realistic is not SRF on...lets be real.

 

[playnthru]

I think you're missing the point entirely.

SRF/on = realistic

SRF/off = unrealistic

Tooth fairy= real

Easter bunny= real

Santa Claus= real

No we get your point....

Now get ours!!!! Nobody agrees with you conclusions...YOU can yell it LOUD and PROUD... You're still wrong, and full of B.S..

Enjoy the re-troll

Oh, as to age and maturity? If you're so old and mature? Why are you trolling here about a topic you know darn well is FAKE??? Why not listen to all the other people trying to explain things to you? Seems that would be mature, no??

Or you're just to busy trolling, eh??

 

[Ills1999]

Everyone has their own opinion. And in my opinion having pushed a car to the limits in real life, and playing gt5 since it came out, that I think they feel more realistic with it off

Stop trying to force your opinion like its fact!

Sure, when everyone else does the same.

Why not listen to all the other people trying to explain things to you? Seems that would be mature, no??

I have listened, I've merely rejected the conventional wisdom as on display here.

Grown-ups draw their own conclusions, you should give it a go sometime.

Not at all.

Have you even attempted the British Lightweight Seasonal? You dont need an Elise with Aero package. It all boils down to throttle, brake and steering control. You learn more about control then you will ever with the current Seasonals.

As for it being realistic?

You are not far from Laguna or Infinion...go out there when they do track rentals to see how many people do 180's or 360' or venture into the dirt as they search the limits of the threshold of the rubber compound have to offer them. That is real.

I find you contradict yourself alot on this thread. One minute you say you cant spin tires or slide a car and the next you say you can. BTW in 1993, those tires you had were rubbish on the 5.0.Yep, they were rubbish AND they provided MORE grip and FEEDBACK than 'comfort softs' do in GT Thanks for making my point for me. My '12 5.0 comes stock with 220 tread wear and I can still slide it when exiting a corner in 3rd gear via drift.

Going to simply say that you must drive like a saint. Far from it.Which is not a bad thing mind you. But, with all the folks ive raced with IRL, there were always a few that never got it or they never pushed it and were always slower. Never asked if it was a fear thing or a maturity thing, but what ever.

Realistic is not SRF on...lets be real.

SRF/on is closer to realistic than SRF/off. A person can push a car far harder IRL, on garbage tires, than that person can in the game on 'comfort soft' tires with SRF/off.

When you turn SRF/on, the game comes closer to replicating the sensation of the car near the edge of traction.

 

[FormulaKimball]

There's honestly no way of justifying it. Keeping SRF as optional would be enough to entice less hardcore drivers. It literally makes no sense, and I agree that issues like this make me worry for the next game.

Me too. Keep it optional (default to SRF on if you must PD but LET US TURN IT OFF) and everyone is happy. Force it on, guaranteed to alienate some players. I'm already playing another game instead, and I still hope PD will come to their senses but after what, 5 in a row with forced SRF? ... not looking too good. I can see adding it to the comfort tire events (or at least, I am indifferent about skipping them) but NOT with racing tires on race cars... that is ridiculous.

Another great seasonal I would have enjoyed (NASCAR) ... but no way am I dignifying this forced SRF BS.