The 2017 F1 driver transfer discussion/speculation threadFormula 1

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

I think Williams are probably too established, too independent - and let's call a spade a spade, too proud (not that it's a bad thing) - to be relegated to the role of stepping stone for Mercedes' best and brightest.

I agree with the pride part, I mean when your history is more or less a customer team and as such you won 9* WCC, it's hard to ever want to be a stepping stone. They still think they're a premier team, but they haven't been such since probably early 00s at best.

That, I think, is the real tragedy of Williams' situation. Ten years ago, they had a really distinct culture about them - British fortitude without the stiff upper lip - which I think has been diluted. There were drivers like Juan Pablo Montoya who were Williams drivers (and Montoya was arguably the last of them), but then they hit that rocky patch that started with Toyota, and haven't really been exciting since. There was a time when they would have run Räikkönen and Kobayashi, but those days are sadly gone.

Yeah Toyota was a bad move, cause Toyota was never going to give Williams the time of day that the works team or anyone other team (Jordan, Midland). I'd even say that Toyota's lack of care was far greater than the supposed one going on between them and Mercedes. The only teams fall down the hill that is more sad is Sauber, they just lack the prestige of once being world winners.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

The only teams fall down the hill that is more sad is Sauber, they just lack the prestige of once being world winners.

I think Sauber's problem has been constant mismanagement. Williams aren't doing anything particularly wrong, but they're not doing anything particularly right, either.

They still think they're a premier team, but they haven't been such since probably early 00s at best.

I agree, but would add that I think they have a lack of direction or identity. They know where they want to be, but no idea how to get there. Look at their choices for replacing Massa: giving a swansong to an ageing driver (Button), taking an under-developed rookie with a patchy history (Stroll), stealing away a well-rounded driver from their main rivals (Pérez), relying on their engine supplier for a hand-out (Wehrlein), going for the money (Nasr), or taking a rookie who top teams passed on early and who is only getting a look-in because of his nationality (Lynn).

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

@prisonermonkeys I feel that they have a decent engineering squad, but the marketing side is where they fail. Unlike the 80s and 90s where groups were willing to give money to race groups, they instead do themselves these day (Renault, Mercedes). I feel it's hard to sway a manufacture (which is what they really need) to join an expensive sport, but more so lack the people to actually get such an effort done, I don't think Claire is capable.

 

[mustafur]

Yeah Toyota was a bad move, cause Toyota was never going to give Williams the time of day that the works team or anyone other team (Jordan, Midland). I'd even say that Toyota's lack of care was far greater than the supposed one going on between them and Mercedes. The only teams fall down the hill that is more sad is Sauber, they just lack the prestige of once being world winners.

I can't compare Sauber to BMW Sauber because the team is significantly different, for one it isn't like a independent team with factory backing it was BMW buying the whole team out and keeping the Sauber name in the team name.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

I can't compare Sauber to BMW Sauber because the team is significantly different, for one it isn't like a independent team with factory backing it was BMW buying the whole team out and keeping the Sauber name in the team name.

No one is, but the fact remains that before they were bought and then sold back to the same person who it was bought from, they had a much better standing and a potential to win. After however, it was pick and choose the years you want to do decent with the remainder being a complete mess, and then using the advent of price as the main reason for said issue. When in reality price was just as bad if at times worse before BMW bought them and they lived for how long?

 

[mustafur]

Not really, I mean now it's bad yes, but I would argue 2012 was a pretty good year and probably their best shot at winning, Perez almost did at Malaysia, and Monza.

The car has died this ear due to a lack of development however now that they have some money to develop again there is still a shot at getting some results in the future.

The biggest thing that hurt the team post BMW was them losing their Title sponsor since the late 90s in Petronas.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

Not really, I mean now it's bad yes, but I would argue 2012 was a pretty good year and probably their best shot at winning, Perez almost did at Malaysia, and Monza.

The car has died this ear due to a lack of development however now that they have some money to develop again there is still a shot at getting some results in the future.

The biggest thing that hurt the team post BMW was them losing their Title sponsor since the late 90s in Petronas.

Which is why I said they basically got to pick a couple of decent years, but I mean I wouldn't really use 2012 as a beacon of hope or good considering a lot of first time things or near first time things happened in that year. Maldonado got his first win, Rosberg and Mercedes got their first win, Sauber got a handful of podiums, FI almost won their first race had Hulk not crashed. To me it spells what that year mainly spelled out for most of the crowd, that the rules and cars were so similar and copied from one to the other that you just had to get the weekend right to win.

They did start developing again, they brought updates in before the Summer break and after, car is still quite questionable. It seems now they're planning to shift to 2017 while they have the funding.

The loss in Petronas was big, but so was AT&T from Williams and yet from the two one is still considered a top mid level team that can pose a challenge to the top teams, the other is fodder for back markers. Point is like Williams, but worse you see excuses and a lack of market side understanding of F1 to help toward the side that creates wins. And thus we end up here having conversations about third rate junior drivers having a crack at the premier league, or old has beens that should have left after Ferrari said goodbye.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

I don't think Claire is capable.

If she isn't, nobody is. She's the daughter of Sir Frank - so she was practically raised to run the team. And that's not me being politically-correct, either; I think Monisha Kaltenborn has totally mismanaged Sauber.

I just think Williams have been slow to react to the changing face of the sport - as you outlined above - but at the same time, I don't think that you can really fault them, since no-one saw it coming. The once-prominent privateer teams have gradually slipped away as manufacturers and teams that are an extension of a corporate juggernaut have risen to prominence and neatly closed the void.

 

[Carbonox]

If she isn't, nobody is. She's the daughter of Sir Frank - so she was practically raised to run the team.

That doesn't automatically mean anything.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

If she isn't, nobody is. She's the daughter of Sir Frank - so she was practically raised to run the team. And that's not me being politically-correct, either; I think Monisha Kaltenborn has totally mismanaged Sauber.

I just think Williams have been slow to react to the changing face of the sport - as you outlined above - but at the same time, I don't think that you can really fault them, since no-one saw it coming. The once-prominent privateer teams have gradually slipped away as manufacturers and teams that are an extension of a corporate juggernaut have risen to prominence and neatly closed the void.

I think Claire due to the last 10 or so more years, has been more busy being groomed to take over for her aging father, and seems to have a better idea of how to keep the ship afloat. Rather than keeping it afloat and investing in expansion or even others. Bottas is arguably the only decent move they've made in that past few years. And if the young Russia actually makes the F1 ranks with them that will be another. However, good drivers can only do so much in a straight line rocket with no low speed benefits.

I don't know if no one saw it coming, I'd argue and say once the tobacco companies were axed due to laws, everyone should have been ready for a major shift in money and marketing difficulties. The the global economy crash that saw many of the manufactures exit the sport as well didn't help matters.

As for Monisha, I just want to be clear to some who may get huffed, but I see Claire in a far better light and don't actually compare the two, just the teams of similar age falling from grace.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

Sky are reporting that Sergio Pérez has been re-confirmed at Force India for 2017.

 

[mustafur]

Wonder if Perez is trying to get the Ferrari seat by doing that.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

I don't think that he can really afford to be making decisions based on what might get him into a Ferrari.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

Jenson Button has reportedly announced his retirement from Formula One. Confirmation expected soon. Curiously, the Tweets reporting it all say the same thing: that he has a two-year contract, first to represent McLaren as an ambassador in 2017, but with an option to return in 2018 if Alonso leaves.

 

[BrainsBush]

Stoffel Vandoorne also a great addition to the F1 2017 drivers line up.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

Unlike Massa, I'm more gutted to see him leave, but time isn't kind and thus he wasn't going to be in F1 forever. Realistically him and Alonso were just counting down the days.

 

[BrainsBush]

True. And al tough Sen(i)or Raikkonen already secured his Ferrari seat for 2017 I will not be surprised if he also has an announcement to make within a couple of races (depends on the Ferrari achievements). He recently got married and has other things to do And in about 18 years Senior Max Verstappen will complain about a too agressive racing Raikkonen Jr.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

That weird ululating sound that you can hear is Ted Kravitz panicking at the prospect of only one British driver on the grid.

 

[Akmuq]

I'd say Williams have a great chance of getting Wehrlein now...

 

[FutureF1]

Apparently the deal is Button will stick around if Alonso gets fed up with F1 and leaves. If that's the case, he'll partner Vandoorne. But as of now, it's Alonso and Vandoorne in the car for 2017. McHonda WDC and WCC please!

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

Apparently the deal is Button will stick around if Alonso gets fed up with F1 and leaves. If that's the case, he'll partner Vandoorne. But as of now, it's Alonso and Vandoorne in the car for 2017. McHonda WDC and WCC please!

Don't count on it, maybe if certain regs from next year were in place now, they may have a better chance but since that isn't the case...

 

[prisonermonkeys]

I'd say Williams have a great chance of getting Wehrlein now...

Possibly, but Mercedes have suggested that they could invest more into Manor, styling them along the same lines as Haas.

 

[JockeP22]

Jenson Button has reportedly announced his retirement from Formula One. Confirmation expected soon. Curiously, the Tweets reporting it all say the same thing: that he has a two-year contract, first to represent McLaren as an ambassador in 2017, but with an option to return in 2018 if Alonso leaves.

F1 sabbaticals rarely work out. Hakkinen never returned from his
and I doubt Button will either, no matter what his contract says.

 

[Samus]

It's a bit weird, in 2018 there are surely going to be better options for your seat than a 38 year old Jenson Button with a bit of race rust.

I mean as they say it's certainly innovative to sign someone like Jenson to an advisory driver role but there is obviously a benefit they see to it. If I had to speculate, it's purely a Honda requirement for marketing purposes.

 

[Bram Turismo]

Stoffel Vandoorne also a great addition to the F1 2017 drivers line up.

And the most logical choice for Mclaren.
I'd be so thrilled if he gets a full-time driving seat, and then I shall pray that he will not become a failure like D'Ambrosio was. But this I highly doubt.

 

[Tired Tyres]

I would much prefer to see Button in the WEC to be honest.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

I would much prefer to see Button in the WEC to be honest.

I think most of us would to be fair.

 

[BrainsBush]

Off topic or not? Bernie & Co will sell probably this Tuesday F1 to Liberty Media. What will be the consequences? F1 to NYSE? Kiss cam after every 10 laps during the race

 

[Famine]

Off topic or not?

Have a look at the thread title. If it's about that, no it's not off-topic. If it isn't about that, yes it's off-topic.

Also, if it's a notable event...

Notable events merit their own thread

 

[Robin]

Will be interesting to see who gets the seat at Williams then.

Knowing Jenson's luck 2017 will be the year McHonda pull it together and under new reg's dominate