The GT6 Epic Whining and Crying Thread

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Earth
"With the right handling model, the only entertainment you need is a circuit, a vehicle and the stopwatch."

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2013-07-04-gran-turismo-6-preview

Its this type of attitude which will ruin Gran Turismo, and I feel GT Academy contributed to it greatly.

Now that I think about it, the Madden NFL franchise started to go downhill once online was introduced in 2004, when people started buying the game to solely play online. At that point improvements to AI and other offline components started to become smaller and smaller, even tot he point where they did not patch offline bugs in franchise mode.

So I guess now Gran Turismo is a hot lap simulator. Such a shame. If hot lapping was so great, then after F1 qualifies they should give the trophy to pole position and send everyone home. Its all about the racing...
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CorvetteConquer
I love how the author of the article called called GT's A.I. an "irrelevance" because the physics are so good...

Sure, if the the A.I. is an irrelevance, then so must GT5's A-Spec mode. And therein lies the problem. GT has become just a simulator of driving physics and that's about it.

GT Academy is the clearest example of Kaz's dream; MY video game is so "realistic" that everyday gamers can become a professional driver! Woo hoo! And then the actual remaining gameplay, because after all, it's a damn game we're playing, lags so far behind; customization is lost in an eccentric developer's mind. The carlist has been stuffed with JDM cars and few supercars. Koenigsegg not in GT? The most recent RUF is a 2000 standard model? There wasn't any rally events in A-spec... Weather/time change was rarely utilized, as well.

It's all a bit sad to see, especially coming from a gamer who first experienced GT1 as a young boy. And GT6 has a long hill to climb (for me, at least). From the interviews, it seems PD want to make up for it with tons of DLC and updates. Tons of DLC is a double-edged sword and I think we'll be seeing the sharpest side of the blade.
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👍 You both took the words out of my mouth.

Altough the hotlapping is fun (which the demo proves), it's only one small part of the deal and certainly not an excuse to totally ignore every other aspect of the game.
 
napalmhardcore
When I replied to those comments I was talking about games in general. However whether or not it is because the amount of time spent developing the online (which I have not played) there are elements of the game which require attention.

The A.I. as mentioned is still poor and (this is a personal gripe) there is very little in the way of options to customise a race to your liking. I for one think the arcade mode could be improved dramatically by giving us the option to hand pick opponents. The ability to set up some kind of custom championship would be a nice feature also.
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True enough - however that was GT5 and there has been talk from PD as well as those at Sony responsible for the game, stating that more options are in the mix. I suppose we'll just have to wait and see.

MuoNiuLa
You guys pretty much nailed it. The second paragraph of that article is sickening. If the future of GT is to become a time trial simulator that tries to make real race car drivers in the process while putting half-baked features on side, then I think the series will be in trouble sooner or later.
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Ah, now I get what was being said. That would indeed be something to fear.

I do hold out hope that it isn't the raison d'etre for the series, after all Kazunori san has mentioned quite recently that having fun is all a part of the game (GT6) and that the 'edge feature' is a part of that.
 
MeanElf
True enough - however that was GT5 and there has been talk from PD as well as those at Sony responsible for the game, stating that more options are in the mix. I suppose we'll just have to wait and see.

I do hold out hope that it isn't the raison d'etre for the series, after all Kazunori san has mentioned quite recently that having fun is all a part of the game (GT6) and that the 'edge feature' is a part of that.
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I'll keep my fingers crossed for GT6, though I have this sneaking feeling I'll be back on this or another similar thread in the future.

I only moan about these things because I like the series and want to see it improve.
 
napalmhardcore
When I replied to those comments I was talking about games in general. However whether or not it is because the amount of time spent developing the online (which I have not played) there are elements of the game which require attention.

The A.I. as mentioned is still poor and (this is a personal gripe) there is very little in the way of options to customise a race to your liking. I for one think the arcade mode could be improved dramatically by giving us the option to hand pick opponents. The ability to set up some kind of custom championship would be a nice feature also.
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Trust me when I say, the online portion of the game is just as underdeveloped as the AI.
 
Johnnypenso
Trust me when I say, the online portion of the game is just as underdeveloped as the AI.
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While I've not tried the online in GT5, I did try a few online races in prologue and hated it. People had learned to exploit the collision detection so that they could ram you just hard enough to send you off track without getting a penalty (restricted engine performance) or ride the barrier to get extra speed on High Speed Ring. Every time I was in a race where I was going to win the host would quit.
 
We need a whole new list of tracks. Its like playing call of duty for the last ten years on the same maps. Playing that demo and I could have done it with my eyes closed. Freshen things up.
 
Johnnypenso
Trust me when I say, the online portion of the game is just as underdeveloped as the AI.
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Oh yes, Gran Turismo 5 is a terrible example of an online focused game. It is literally nothing of the sort.

I do agree with the line that when the physics are sorted out, you've got most of the work out of the way. But when you reach that point, it only makes sense to start focusing on other things, not just quit developing the game.
 
About the A.I.......... People are saying GT's A.I. is SOOOOO horrible, and while I agree it's nothing special and doesn't race "hard" at all........it's not as bad as people say, the problem is that it just doesn't put up a fight and is slow, but they're actually smart believe it or not. There's a video on youtube I watched a year ago or maybe even more, comparing side by side GT5 and Forza 4's A.I. They used the same track, got WAY ahead of the A.I. and just stopped sideways in the middle of some tight S curves and just waited for the A.I. to catch up. Long story short......he didn't even get touched in GT5 aside from maybe a door panel rubbing the corner of his front bumper as it was avoiding him, in Forza not only did 2nd place just plow right into his door without even trying to avoid him, he proceeded to get parlayed by just about every other car on the track as well.

(after I post this I'll go see if I can find the video and I'll put the link here if I do)

ANd also, in some of the more recent Seasonals, the GT5 A.I. does seem much improved over the A-Spec events and older seasonals. They seem more progressive now where they get better as you work your way up through the field. SOmetimes it's even hard to catch the leader if you're using a little lower than suggested PP which it never was before, and passing is a bit harder sometimes. I've noticed a bit of blocking and even some rubbing after you pass instead of just backing off like they used to. They will also deviate a bit from the "best line", which they never did before unless avoiding you. I can't be the only person who noticed this in the new seasonals in the last like 4 months. Go back to the old ones or A-spec though and it's the old easy A.I.

Someone said tons of games have had better A.I. since the 90s. Well, I havn't seen any of it on consoles. It's always just rediculous or easy aside from a rare few examples. Project Cars is the very first racing game I've ever seen with actually good A.I., and you know what?.......that shows why most racing games DON'T use actually good racer A.I., because it will make you cry.

Evolution Studios put strong A.I. in Motorstorm Pacific Rift and had them on a tight rubber band.........it was indeed really good at points but the problem was not only was the A.I. on a rubber band and good........but it was also homicidal. It was literally trying to kill you as far as I could tell. I loved it but on the hardest races it got incredibly frustrating......not me, but alot of other gamers got on their case for that and complained about how hard it was and it was toned down for Apocalypse. And if PCars releases to the public with that super hard A.I. they'll get torn up by gamers too.

What I'd like to see for A.I. in GT is something challenging but beatable for the "campaign". For real racing, real people is the only answer imo, but against the computer I'd like A.I. with the logic of GT's typical A.I......yeah they're slow....but they're actually smart and good drivers. Blend that with the tight rubber band and aggressiveness of Motorstorm Pacific Rift.......just you know.....without the homicidal tendencies.

I know most racing gamers downtalk rubber band A.I., and I get it, most of the time it's just stupid and I used to have the same exact feelings, but Motorstorm Pacific Rift changed my view on rubber band. If the rest of the A.I.'s logic is right (like GT's), it can be great because no matter your skill level/speed you'll always have a good, challenging race with the A.I.

My point is GT5's A.I. isn't dumb, it's just slow. And that there has to be some kind of happy medium between the slow A.I of GT5 or the complete idiot A.I. of Forza, and the robot Sebastian Vettels and Jimmie Johnsons in Project Cars that are powered by your tears of frustration. I think the answer is a good, smart driver A.I. base, assisted by a rubber band and a couple drops of aggression for flavor.
 
Oh and just one other point about GT6's A.I.

Don't at all judge GT6's A.I. from this GT Academy demo. Because messing around with the demo doing tracks backwards and what-not, I've noticed the demo doesn't even have A.I. at all as such. They are set to stick to the driving line and nothing else unless you actually hit them and move them off it. Going backwards towards them on the wide straight of Grand Valley they don't even move. They just all plow straight on until they hit something. It's pretty funny.....they're like meteors or something.

But yeah......there really is no A.I. in the demo. Just figured I'd point that out since I noticed some people mentioning the A.I. in the demo...........even though I know it's falling on the deaf ears of the internet and people will continue to talk as though they should judge GT6's A.I. from the demo.
 
LarryL
I've noticed a bit of blocking and even some rubbing after you pass instead of just backing off like they used to.

Project Cars is the very first racing game I've ever seen with actually good A.I., and you know what?.......that shows why most racing games DON'T use actually good racer A.I., because it will make you cry.

I'd like A.I. with the logic of GT's typical A.I......yeah they're slow....but they're actually smart and good drivers. Blend that with the tight rubber band and aggressiveness of Motorstorm Pacific Rift.......just you know.....without the homicidal tendencies.

I know most racing gamers downtalk rubber band A.I., and I get it, most of the time it's just stupid and I used to have the same exact feelings, but Motorstorm Pacific Rift changed my view on rubber band. If the rest of the A.I.'s logic is right (like GT's), it can be great because no matter your skill level/speed you'll always have a good, challenging race with the A.I.

My point is GT5's A.I. isn't dumb, it's just slow. And that there has to be some kind of happy medium between the slow A.I of GT5 or the complete idiot A.I. of Forza, and the robot Sebastian Vettels and Jimmie Johnsons in Project Cars that are powered by your tears of frustration. I think the answer is a good, smart driver A.I. base, assisted by a rubber band and a couple drops of aggression for flavor.
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If they reintroduce rubber band A.I. they may as well abandon the entire pursuit of being a sim. Also in a sanctioned race event, drivers are not supposed to try and block you.

The rubber band effect was designed to create the illusion of a competitive race but doesn't reward consistency or punish failures. If they bring back the rubber band system to Gran Turismo the facepalm made by me will be so loud it will be heard worldwide.

The speed of the opponents is another topic entirely from how good they are. Good A.I doesn't equal fast A.I. Good A.I is intelligent A.I which should be scalable in both speed and aggressiveness.
 
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LarryL
Oh and just one other point about GT6's A.I.

Don't at all judge GT6's A.I. from this GT Academy demo. Because messing around with the demo doing tracks backwards and what-not, I've noticed the demo doesn't even have A.I. at all as such. They are set to stick to the driving line and nothing else unless you actually hit them and move them off it. Going backwards towards them on the wide straight of Grand Valley they don't even move. They just all plow straight on until they hit something. It's pretty funny.....they're like meteors or something.

But yeah......there really is no A.I. in the demo. Just figured I'd point that out since I noticed some people mentioning the A.I. in the demo...........even though I know it's falling on the deaf ears of the internet and people will continue to talk as though they should judge GT6's A.I. from the demo.
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Last I knew demo is the short word for demonstration. I know people shouldnt judge by a demostration of a product, but going by pd's track record i'm willing to wager that what you see is what you get. I know totally crazy thinking on my part.
 
Demo usually comes with written warning " do not represent final product " or " work in progress ". Judging a product from a demo that is a work in progress or not representative of final product = pointless. Demo will give use rough idea of how the game will play, how it looks like, how it sound like, how it perform, and game modes available + many others. It's still a sneak peek, anything can change in the final release.
Almost like movies, watch the trailer, if it's enticing enough, watch the movie, then make the judgment :)

The GT Academy 2013 is built for the competition purpose in mind, while we get to taste some of GT6 core components ( mainly physics ), it's not an exclusive demo of GT6 as we don't even get to see the full game menu and modes at the very least, hence the "powered by GT6".
 
While it's true that the demo is not representative of the final product, it was an opportunity for them to show off improvements. If they have improved the A.I. they didn't embrace the opportunity to show it off.
 
LarryL
...I've noticed the demo doesn't even have A.I. at all as such. They are set to stick to the driving line and nothing else unless you actually hit them and move them off it...
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I know I've said this before, but I found that they did move away in the demo, were more aware of me when I moved to pass them. Nor am I talking about them slowing right down. In GT5 I'd regularly get an AI cutting into my rear, this didn't happen once in the GT6 demo.

So whilst not fast, or complete (witness the collision vid posted on the first day) there are aspects where improvements can be seen. I'd really like for them to be faster though, like in GT5:P - even if that was painful occasionally.

Regarding the comparison vid you mentioned - I wouldn't put too much stock in the veracity of that test. There were two of them, if I remember it properly. The person who made the vids actually chose spots that would give the GT5 cars a chance to react - something they didn't do with the Forza 4 location. - so it was a tad biased.

I've not played any Forza, but I do recall the discussion here that followed after the vids were posted.
 
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One thing I want reverted to the GT5 version is the map. I do not like the isometric style in GT6 as it makes it difficult to judge the distance to a ghost car.
 
Scuderia Paul
One thing I want reverted to the GT5 version is the map. I do not like the isometric style in GT6 as it makes it difficult to judge the distance to a ghost car.
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I'm perhaps one of the few that is fine with the map, or so it seems :) It's almost identical to GT5:P's - also in the full game, I can imagine more options regarding size being available like they were in GT5. This demo does after all come with quite a few options missing, which in combination, I'm assuming was to keep the download size reasonable.
 
Looking at the track list so far...looks like they've given up on the American fanbase and are focusing on their biggest market, Europe. Sebring, Road Atlanta, Road America, Circuit of the Americas, Long Beach, etc etc are still missing. And no word on NASCAR returning
 
Earth
Looking at the track list so far...looks like they've given up on the American fanbase and are focusing on their biggest market, Europe. Sebring, Road Atlanta, Road America, Circuit of the Americas, Long Beach, etc etc are still missing. And no word on NASCAR returning
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While I can sympathise on the lack of US circuits currently confirmed, NASCAR is quite specialised. I think it would probably take quite a lot of time and effort to get right. I think it may be to the detriment of GT6 to spend too much time on what is globally a fairly niche interest.
 
Earth
Looking at the track list so far...looks like they've given up on the American fanbase and are focusing on their biggest market, Europe. Sebring, Road Atlanta, Road America, Circuit of the Americas, Long Beach, etc etc are still missing. And no word on NASCAR returning
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DLC. Don't forget the DLC. Also NASCAR is confirmed returning simply because PD said all tracks and cars from GT5 will be in GT6.
 
townnet
Will PD fix the flickering issue in final product? Especially at Silverstone side track fence are kill my eyes ball.
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Of course. The fences are just placeholders for the real fences that will be in the final game.

[/sarcasm]
 
Earth
Looking at the track list so far...looks like they've given up on the American fanbase and are focusing on their biggest market, Europe. Sebring, Road Atlanta, Road America, Circuit of the Americas, Long Beach, etc etc are still missing. And no word on NASCAR returning
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There are more US tracks in GT5 than any country apart from Japan, I wouldn't call that bad, especially with Willow Springs confirmed and no new Japanese tracks. UK, US and Japan are tied for first with four tracks each if you count Goodwood, London and Dunsfold for us... maybe not :lol:.

Actually, considering us and Italy are two of (possibly even overall) the biggest motorsport nations, with 2 real tracks confirmed between us, I'd say US fans have nothing to complain about with the track list as it currently stands. Especially when you consider that Silverstone (held the first ever F1 race and is the home base for many racing teams and competitions) is only just making an appearance in the 6th iteration, yet we've had Laguna Seca since the 3rd.

As Samus also stated, NASCAR should be returning, but we're also getting the new Corvette, the new Viper, the Deltawing and probably several other US cars. From what I've seen through the evolution of Gran Turismo, they don't feel the need to go after us because we already buy the game. They add more US focus in each game, not less, whereas we get crumbs like adding a track that should have been in years ago. :irked:

I'll still buy GT6 though, unless they really cock-up before release. :)
 
Placeholder Goodwood...placeholder Silverstone..Did you guys like the new Autum Ring? guess what, it's a placeholder too..
 

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