[WHAT HAPPENS?] - Let's face it, why is Polyphony Digital so slow in content production?

[Timlour]

No. I just anticipated the fallacy arguments that fas use to justify the delay of PD. But the point of the question is at the beginning and end of the text.

Is that not what you wanted people to do? You ask why PD is so slow with content production, but then you seem to shut down those who try to answer the question, calling their reasoning "fallacious." That doesn't make sense to me.

I don't think any of us can come up with a conclusive answer as to why these delays happen, but I do agree with @urmie 's reasoning...

To reply to the title of this thread, the normal response I've seen, and not sure if this is the case now, is that Turn 10 and the other companies outsource some functions, whereas Kaz keeps everything in-house, hence, slower content production.

But if 4+ years for GT Sport is any indication, perhaps Kaz needs to get with the times and expand his team.

...To add to that, I wouldn't like to think that it's mere incompetence that leads to PD's delays. I don't know much about business, but is it not possible that there's something going on at the office that we don't know about, and that that's playing a part in delays?

 

[Corsa]

I think the vast majority of time is in the detail.
I read a Aussie article wrote after they visited PD offices which said Kaz had one lady in which her sole job that week was to add bolts to a ferris wheel.
Good value for time? I think not but he does.

You get the idea.

GT Sport looks better but not enough to justify years over T10/SMS/Kunos and I'd rather see major improvements to the physics than bolts on ferris wheels.
They all look very good to me, still I love the simplicity of Assetto Corsa and it remains my favorite.

Forgive me the top photo is Forza 6.

 

[BrunusCL82]

Is that not what you wanted people to do? You ask why PD is so slow with content production, but then you seem to shut down those who try to answer the question, calling their reasoning "fallacious." That doesn't make sense to me.

I don't think any of us can come up with a conclusive answer as to why these delays happen, but I do agree with @urmie 's reasoning...

...To add to that, I wouldn't like to think that it's mere incompetence that leads to PD's delays. I don't know much about business, but is it not possible that there's something going on at the office that we don't know about, and that that's playing a part in delays?

No. In OP, I've listed the fans' repeated arguments. I quoted examples of their arguments, with no logic. It is sophistry. They run away from the point of the question.

I tired. I'm not going to draw. The user @Lukanyon cited the arguments of the fans, as they are evasive and run away from the question:


Isn't it funny that every GT or PD's flaws have an excuse?

Lack of content: "You're just being impatient! Everything that everybody wants will come in future updates. Yeah, we waited 4 years and other devs have made more games and content within that time… but you're being impatient!!!"

PD being slow: "But GT Sport has 'the graphics' and all other games don't look real! They're better in all other departments but they don't have 'the graphics', which are way more important than physics, weather and damage, you know?"


Fans do not face the real issue. Why is PD so slow in content production, even with a larger budget and working only for one platform (ps4)?

It's no use citing graphics only. The other games have other graphics advantages, such as damage and dynamic time. So they get balanced. So, the difference is about the content.

We do not understand why the other games deliver several cars and several race tracks. And GTS only eight real tracks. It's ridiculous.

F7 has more than 30 real racetracks. I do not count the variations.

PC2 has over 60 real race tracks. I do not count the variations.

GTS has 08 real race tracks. I do not count the variations. This is pathetic.

See.

 

[JacksHerer]

I don't recall t10/sums/kunos having to do the same level of detail on the interior that has to work at wherever the angle of my head is in VR, if anything, the level of detail inside the car makes the outside look a doddle.

While I like looking at the Ferris wheel in Suzuka in VR, my eyes aren't good enough to see its bolts! You must mean Ferrari wheel

 

[BrunusCL82]

I prefer more circuits than tire screw.

 

[Scaff]

What do you mean by a tactile setup?

As has been said it's a transducer, basically a big heavy magnet in a frame that gets driven by the low frequency audio.

When it's mounted to your rig it then moves and vibrates depending on the audio. So you get to feel engine rumble, drivetrain shunt, rumble strips, collisions, etc physically through your rig. It adds massively to the level of immersion.

This is a video I put together explains my one and how it works.

 

[Turbo Racer 48]

I agree the vast majority of time is in the detail and this is the PD way - they see themselves as craftsmen and this may also be related to Japanese culture.

For example you do know how Kaz signed off the GTS launch event in Modena - he called GTS a "gift" from his company to the players. To Western ears this sounds strange indeed but fits with the craftmanship ethos.

Personally I find it a refreshing counter to the yearly EA type full price minor 'refresh' or in my perception Forza's 2 year update cycle on recent MotorSports releases.

Couple of other comments if I may :

• Comparison to FM7 and to some extent PC2 from a system development platform perspective may be a little unfair as GTS represents a second generation re-launch whereas Forza is on its third update Forza 5 was criticised for lack of content too when it was the new generation platform. PC2 is an update though a more substantial one though with a lot of apparent launch bugs....
If we believe Kaz (ignoring PS3 misteps) then GTS will have 500 cars by end of its lifecycle of (assumed 3-4 years). Proof of course is in the eating of the pudding so delivery of the 50 cars by March is key.

• As attached post shows 50 cars is about in line with there staffing capability on a 6 month per person basis (the 50 number is a rounded number for the number of car modellers shown under credits in Options about the game tab......tracks is more diificult but using the same data source there are 38 location tracks modellers excluding senior staff. I've seen some suggestion that in GT6 it would take 4-6 modellers six months to do a track. Given GTS needs integration with Circuit Experience etc assume 6 months for 6 modellers and assuming not working on anything else that would indicate 6 additional tracks within 6 months. To my mind that sounds high so we will just need to wait and see.

Thanks I suspected that would be the case given this is an entire new generation GT.

So taking into account holidays, illness, meetings, review and rework etc and supervisory roles that would suggest all things considered a maximum throughput of around 50 models every 6 months.

Anyone have an idea how long each track takes as not aware its ever been mentioned by Kaz or PD ?

 

[BrunusCL82]

I agree the vast majority of time is in the detail and this is the PD way - they see themselves as craftsmen and this may also be related to Japanese culture.

For example you do know how Kaz signed off the GTS launch event in Modena - he called GTS a "gift" from his company to the players. To Western ears this sounds strange indeed but fits with the craftmanship ethos.

Personally I find it a refteshing counter to the yearly EA type full price minor 'refresh' or in my perception Forza's 2 year update cycle on recent MotorSports releases.

Couple of other comments if I may :

• Comparison to FM7 and to some extent PC2 from a system development platform perspective may be a little unfair as GTS represents a second generation re-launch whereas Forza is on its third update Forza 5 was criticised for lack of content too when it was the new generation platform. PC2 is an update though a more substantial one though with a lot of apparent launch bugs....
If we believe Kaz (ignoring PS3 misteps) then GTS will have 500 cars by end of its lifecycle of (assumed 3-4 years). Proof of course is in the eating of the pudding so delivery of the 50 cars by March is key.

• As attached post shows 50 cars is about in line with there staffing capability on a 6 month per person basis (the 50 number is a rounded number for the number of car modellers shown under credits in Options about the game tab......tracks is more diificult but using the same data source there are 38 location tracks modellers excluding senior staff. I've seen some suggestion that in GT6 it would take 4-6 modellers six months to do a track. Given GTS needs integration with Circuit Experience etc assume 6 months for 6 modellers and assuming not working on anything else that would indicate 6 additional tracks within 6 months. To my mind that sounds high so we will just need to wait and see.

Six months for each race track? Oh my God! The PD has to hire more employees urgently.

I can not believe this. Would it be my GTS dream to have the same number of F7 race tracks?

 

[Timlour]

No. In OP, I've listed the fans' repeated arguments. I quoted examples of their arguments, with no logic. It is sophistry. They run away from the point of the question.

Oh, are you refering to these arguments?

I read fans saying that GT cars are incredibly well crafted.

Right. But F7 or PC2 cars are not made with 16 bits. They are very well made cars.

I see fans talking about GT lighting.

Okay. But the F7 and PC2 lighting is very good. Not like GT, but it's good. But they have rain and dynamic weather.

If so, then I must have misunderstood. Yes, those statements do indeed avoid the point of the question, however I don't think those statements are illogical when looking at the big picture, I think they're calling it like it is. But yeah, in terms of why PD is struggling with content production, I agree that those arguments don't answer the question.

I thought you were referring to these statements as fallacies.

Does Kaz have difficulty delegating roles and tasks to others?

Does PD have tools and outdated technology?

The PD has few employees?

The PD is a softhouse with little money. T10 and SMS are richer and have more employees?

What really happens?

 

[Turbo Racer 48]

Six months for each race track? Oh my God! The PD has to hire more employees urgently.

I can not believe this. Would it be my GTS dream to have the same number of F7 race tracks?

Unlikely as its not there way.....and there may be other reasons at play here tbat we aren't aware of.

For further discussion on Japanese culture see post 24/25 on the closed Where is the DLC thread .... can't insert as closed.....

I suspect tracks will be longer but any added will be in place for April 2018 before the Championships starts. The tracks need to be bullet proof exploit wise for use in Sport Mode. Also need integration into Circuit Experience and all Modes. Perhaps thats why there is only Beginner and Intermediate Driving School at present....note there is one real track per geographic region at present - was that to avoid any region having an advantage knowledge wise ?

 

[Johnnypenso]

I don't recall t10/sums/kunos having to do the same level of detail on the interior that has to work at wherever the angle of my head is in VR, if anything, the level of detail inside the car makes the outside look a doddle.

While I like looking at the Ferris wheel in Suzuka in VR, my eyes aren't good enough to see its bolts! You must mean Ferrari wheel

How detailed are the engine bays in GTS? Can you open up the doors and hood/bonnet and take a peak inside?

 

[Lukanyon]

How detailed are the engine bays in GTS? Can you open up the doors and hood/bonnet and take a peak inside?

"If PD doesn't make them, they're not relevant."

 

[bonusbertie]

OP, you think PC2 does some things better than GTS. We get it. Honestly we do. It's fine. You know what? It probably does. Congratulations on your assertion.

You don't understand why something else is not exactly the way you like things. That's fine too. Things are different and people have preferences.

You then then ask a bunch of strangers why the thing you don't understand is like it is. Guess what? No one knows. Some have opinions though...

People have offered those opinions and been very polite. But that's not good enough to you. It feels like all of their opinions are WRONG and yours are RIGHT. I get that too. It can be frustrating when your beliefs are not validated by others.

We kind of like GTS in its current form. It's a shame you can't seem to accept that.

But, and this is important, another 452 posts telling us that we are wrong and you are right isn't going to make one iota of difference. To your opinions or ours.

However consistently stating peoples opinions are wrong is just inflammatory and you are factually in no position to dismiss them as such because your opinions are...well...just opinions too.

Has one person in this thread changed their stance to yours or vice versa?

No?

Go and play PC2 mate and enjoy yourself. Or come and play GTs with us.

I advise GTS. It's much MUCH better.

In my opinion.

You are entitled to think differently.

 

[BrunusCL82]

OP, you think PC2 does some things better than GTS. We get it. Honestly we do. It's fine. You know what? It probably does. Congratulations on your assertion.

You don't understand why something else is not exactly the way you like things. That's fine too. Things are different and people have preferences.

You then then ask a bunch of strangers why the thing you don't understand is like it is. Guess what? No one knows. Some have opinions though...

People have offered those opinions and been very polite. But that's not good enough to you. It feels like all of their opinions are WRONG and yours are RIGHT. I get that too. It can be frustrating when your beliefs are not validated by others.

We kind of like GTS in its current form. It's a shame you can't seem to accept that.

But, and this is important, another 452 posts telling us that we are wrong and you are right isn't going to make one iota of difference. To your opinions or ours.

However consistently stating peoples opinions are wrong is just inflammatory and you are factually in no position to dismiss them as such because your opinions are...well...just opinions too.

Has one person in this thread changed their stance to yours or vice versa?

No?

Go and play PC2 mate and enjoy yourself. Or come and play GTs with us.

I advise GTS. It's much MUCH better.

In my opinion.

You are entitled to think differently.

Wrong. I did not say that GTS was worse. I said the opposite. I said that GTS has a better gameplay.

I have never compared the quality of the games themselves. Essentialy. Because i know that GTS has unquestionable graphics advantages in some points.

But, i do not understand is why PD is so slow, when the softhouse enjoys many logistical and financial advantages in comparison to other softhouses. THIS IS POINT.

I understand that GTS has different priorities. Okay. But it does not justify the ridiculous amount of racetracks.It's very poor. It does not really justify it. PD is much more sophisticated and moneyed than the other producers. Apparently.

Funny that several users responded with peace of mind. They made notes and deductions. Others were angry, as the OP was offensive against their favorite game. Oh, my... Seriously?

I'll stop, then.

I see people get really angry when we talk about their favorite video game. I do not think to have enough maturity to understand this level of discussion.

 

[bonusbertie]

Wrong. I did not say that GTS was worse. I said the opposite. I said that GTS has a better gameplay.

I have never compared the quality of the games themselves. Properly. Lately because I know that GTS has unquestionable graphics advantages.

I do not understand is why PD is so slow, when the softhouse enjoys many logistical and financial advantages in comparison to other softhouses. But everything.

I see people get really angry when we talk about their favorite video game. I do not think I have enough maturity to understand this level of discussion.

Bye.

I'm glad we can agree on one thing. Maybe the law of averages is at work.

I'd pay a little bit of attention to you labelling everyone that doesn't share your opinion as "very angry" if you don't mind as that is a fairly well known and transparent attempt at portraying yourself as the opposite while, in fact, unveiling yourself to be the frustrated one.

Again, I'm happy you have an opinion on the game. You've aired it. Countless times. Others differ. Sorry about that but you need to learn to deal with that.

It's my last post as Ive said what I have to say on the matter. Have a good day.

 

[250Cal]

As has been said it's a transducer, basically a big heavy magnet in a frame that gets driven by the low frequency audio.

When it's mounted to your rig it then moves and vibrates depending on the audio. So you get to feel engine rumble, drivetrain shunt, rumble strips, collisions, etc physically through your rig. It adds massively to the level of immersion.

This is a video I put together explains my one and how it works.

The audio on this is so bad I struggle to understand it at some points. Can you re-record it?

 

[Scaff]

The audio on this is so bad I struggle to understand it at some points. Can you re-record it?

Will see what I can do, as I now used PC based editing tools rather than Shareplay, which make audio mixing a lot easier.

 

[RFSnake]

What i suspect with updates is that they mix in multiple things to make an update appear larger than it is. And at the same time they try to avoid adding in too many updates. New cars and tracks are most likely going to be released between seasons, so the next season they can be fully represented.

GT league came with multiple cars (which dont come out of random, and i suspect them mostly being upgraded models from the GT6 versions). And on its own, seems like a fine enough update. But the new track was only to be able to state 'a new track', since the track itself isnt new at all. Which already was a major dissapointment. But GT league itself is also massively lacking content (2 pro leagues and 2 endurances is nothing), and suffers from horrible AI issues. And that tells me the update itself wasnt realy that good.

For the next update i would at least expect the following to happen, or it again would be a dissapointment:
- An entirely new track
- A remake of a classic track
- A new version of an existing track (or additional versions of the new/reworked track)
- New cars (mainly higher end cars around the N700 and N1000 range, with a new N400-N600 with tuning capability to that higher end), and maybe a few GT3 and GT4 cars when adding a new brand.
- New GT pro leagues to let those N700-N1000 cars to be represented more often (and i hope this time they at least will start having fuel usage on this, even if there is no pitstop required during these races).
- New GT endurance representing GT3 or GT4.
- More missions to feature the new tracks and new supercars.
- An AI improvement that prevents them going haywire and drive of the track/into other cars all the time (currently its too easy to bait an AI to forcing him off the track by late braking. and cars seem to ignore you when you arent driving the ideal line, or when they went of the track themselve and want to recover, which causes them to just crash into you rather than taking the advantage of being able to drive outside of the track to allow a more smooth recover).

High standards? maybe, but thats what you get when you put out a rather poor update and wait a month without any indication of whats coming soon.

 

[Nuschel01]

@RFSnake I think the update lacks the usual refinement we know from PD since it has obvioulsy been rushed out to tame all the haters and whiners.
But I already said that earlier and I was told to be wrong and angry, so I guess I‘m just being wrong and angry?

 

[SestoScudo]

They're Japanese lol

What did you expect they demand perfection in whatever they do even if its slow.

 

[RFSnake]

@RFSnake I think the update lacks the usual refinement we know from PD since it has obvioulsy been rushed out to tame all the haters and whiners.
But I already said that earlier and I was told to be wrong and angry, so I guess I‘m just being wrong and angry?

TBH, the basic refinement was properly done, its a good interface, it has some decent starter leagues on that, its just that it was low content. But for adding a vs AI campaign, it was needed to be (somewhat) rushed.
But even for this rushed state, they could have done a bit more about the content they included. Its too limited (even the missions had more endurance variety).

Things i wouldnt have expected in the gt league update:
- more tracks, would be nice, but its not what was essential for gt league to work.
- long endurances (4h+)
- Time trial/Drift events similar to the GT5/GT6 ones (which are ideal for a competetive online mode which doesnt require PS+)
- More chalenges

But what i did at least expect:
- more brand/model specific races (and not a duplicate of an event with as only change having more laps).
- more races in which a pitstop was required. A pitstop in a 15min race is fine. Yet the pro races dont even have fuel/tire usage on. This should have been on in nearly all races to begin with even if it wasnt used. Currently you can always just dump on the optimal tires for a race without consequences. This is a bad thing, in some races i would at least expect soft tires to become the unrecommended choise due to being worn at the end.
- better AI quality. the AI should NEVER become a missile.
- An endurance race (or pro race) containing Gr4 and Gr3 cars with at least 1 pitstop as requirement (yes, thats 2 seperate races).

When you first see the menu, you see 6 events in the beginner and 6 events in the amateur league, but the moment you see pro, its only 2 (which feels being very low), and then when you unlock endurance, you see 2 again, and that is very dissapointing.

 

[Scaff]

They're Japanese lol

What did you expect they demand perfection in whatever they do even if its slow.

We've never had perfection from a GT title (or any game for that matter), this is a rather old argument for PD's delays and simply doesn't stack up.

I've worked with Japanese companies and they do not take longer to do things overall at all, the difference is in the speed of the decision making process (and certainly isn't true for all Japanese companies). Japanese companies can take long to come to a decision, but as a result make fewer mistakes in doing so, western companies can take less time to come to a decision, but as a result make more mistakes. The end result is that both end up taking the same amount of time to get an end product to market, its just one focuses on 'right first time' and the other via a series of adjustments along the way.

As such plenty of Japanese companies manage to release products and services on time, this constant assertions that they don't is not only inaccurate but also insulting to a large number of Japanese businesses and people.

 

[IngRobNy]

They're Japanese lol

What did you expect they demand perfection in whatever they do even if its slow.

And i will rather wait for new content and play a playable game than be waiting for a patch to make a game playable, the AI in PC 2 was not great when PC 2 was released and have to wait for patching in a brand new game is not fun.

 

[Javi Piqueras]

for me the fanaticism you show you doing as a reverend and telling people what they have to think and what they should like. I play all three, assetto, PC2 and GTS. Everyone has their points, and already! (pleasures).

 

[Lukanyon]

And i will rather wait for new content and play a playable game than be waiting for a patch to make a game playable, the AI in PC 2 was not great when PC 2 was released and have to wait for patching in a brand new game is not fun.

So how fast is the AI in GT Sport?

 

[TheGeologist]

The core engine may well be the same, but that doesn't mean that large parts of it have not been reworked, as they clearly have.

Keep in mind that you said "It's exactly as PC1 but with some tracks and cars added. They changed the lighting a little, but overall it's the same game."

Now the first part of that is demonstrably untrue (its not just had some cars and tracks added), and the second part is a massive understatement as overall its quite clearly not the same game at all.


They knew the specs of the PS4 at the time of GT6 and were still making these claims, hell they shouldn't have made them about the GT5 models (and they clearly said they were beyond the PS3 at that time) if they didn't know it to be correct! Not that its stopped them repeating the same sort of claims again.


Kaz did (and it was repeated by members here constantly as the reason for long Dev times and why the next GT would take less time to arrive).

For GT5
https://www.gtplanet.net/gt5s-premium-cars-go-beyond-ps3s-capabilities/

Oh and again for GTS
https://www.finder.com.au/gran-turismo-8k-playstation-5

That bottom article has an interesting quote...

"It takes six months to create a single car. It’s over-specced for PS4 Pro. So we are building for future versions of the console rather than the one we see today".

That is ludicrous. 6 months, really?

 

[IngRobNy]

So how fast is the AI in GT Sport?

What? Why? It isn't about how fast they are, it's about how they behave, but they are fast enough for me, i don't win all the time, i could if i had bouncing off the other cars, but with clean race i don't always win.

I know SMS have patched the AI after i stopped playing it, but when i played it, this is how the AI was behaving:

 

[Scaff]

What? Why? It isn't about how fast they are, it's about how they behave, but they are fast enough for me, i don't win all the time, i could if i had bouncing off the other cars, but with clean race i don't always win.

I know SMS have patched the AI after i stopped playing it, but when i played it, this is how the AI was behaving:

View attachment 704349

Only if you set the AI to 0 and aggression to 100, it was an extreme example at launch that was identified as such rather quickly. That issue was never widespread in PC2 even at launch, and improved significantly after the patches we have had to date.

While the AI did have some issues (mainly actually around wet, snow and ice) this kind of exaggeration really doesn't help present a reasoned argument.

The reality of PC2 AI on sensible settings at launch:


The AI in GT (particularly in GT League) leaves a hell a lot to be desired in comparison to just about every title on the PS4, while its an improvement on past GT titles, the rubber banding, situational awareness, pace and overall quality is still quite a way behind the field.

That bottom article has an interesting quote...

"It takes six months to create a single car. It’s over-specced for PS4 Pro. So we are building for future versions of the console rather than the one we see today".

That is ludicrous. 6 months, really?

The six months per car has been a time frame that was first mentioned back in the PS3 days I think, and to be honest I would be OK with it if the end result was assets that were actually future proofed.

 

[Lukanyon]

It isn't about how fast they are, it's about how they behave

pCARS 2's AI is fast and behaves well. GT Sport's AI is slow and behaves like robots.

 

[250Cal]

That bottom article has an interesting quote...

"It takes six months to create a single car. It’s over-specced for PS4 Pro. So we are building for future versions of the console rather than the one we see today".

That is ludicrous. 6 months, really?

6 months to make a car and you make a diesel Mazda sedan. Who made that amazing decision.