Why is the AI so Terrible?

[Wiegert]

Limo?

A video showing the Cadillac XTS doing a simple acceleration/braking test leaked earlier this month along with the DS3 Racing and Caparo T1. All were removed from YT within a couple of days though.

Threading 24 of those through the first section at Long Beach sounds like the closest thing we'll get to absolute pandemonium in a racing game since this clusterfrack.

 

[TonyJZX]

Did Turn10 give any ETA on when this well be 'fixed'? I'm on the last 'volume'.

To be honest I dont rarely care if its fixed or not. I like the hard cheating AI. I found that if I try hard I can beat them. I just need the right car, right upgrades, tune and I need to know the track. Which is fair, bumbling to 1st isnt a huge victory.

I suppose it'd be ok if I hit the 'event list' with the old AI.

 

[MaximusBellus]

Almost every corner it's the same story, real ended, spun out or completely punted of the track by one of these artificial idiots! It's ridiculous and needs to be fixed because it is making a great game almost unplayable for me.

What difficulty are you playing on? I mostly play on Expert, there is Pro and Unbeatable above that and I don't see cars wiping out much on Expert. You are highly exaggerating, just increase the driveatar difficulty.

 

[SPhilli911]

What difficulty are you playing on? I mostly play on Expert, there is Pro and Unbeatable above that and I don't see cars wiping out much on Expert. You are highly exaggerating, just increase the driveatar difficulty.

That is no exaggeration. And a lot of people are having the same issues with the AI, including myself. I increased the difficulty, it does seem to solve the problem slightly, but the AI still is a pain to deal with. On any difficulty the AI seems to brake whenever they feel like it, making drafting the AI unpredictable and frustrating.

The AI is broken. It needs to be fixed.

 

[MaximusBellus]

That is no exaggeration. And a lot of people are having the same issues with the AI, including myself. I increased the difficulty, it does seem to solve the problem slightly, but the AI still is a pain to deal with. On any difficulty the AI seems to brake whenever they feel like it, making drafting the AI unpredictable and frustrating.

The AI is broken. It needs to be fixed.

The AI is great, better than any console car game before it including all Gran Turismo titles. The driveatar technology means each AI vehicle is going to behave differently and break at different times than other AI vehicles, this is realistic because in real world racing every driver would obviously behave differently on the track.

 

[fortbo]

The AI is great, better than any console car game before it including all Gran Turismo titles. The driveatar technology means each AI vehicle is going to behave differently and break at different times than other AI vehicles, this is realistic because in real world racing every driver would obviously behave differently on the track.

This doesn't mean trying to make a pass that won't work though. The AI needs to be fixed, I shouldn't have to be rear ended at every tight corner because they don't know how to brake.

 

[Speedster911]

Almost every corner it's the same story, real ended, spun out or completely punted of the track by one of these artificial idiots! It's ridiculous and needs to be fixed because it is making a great game almost unplayable for me.

I can somewhat relate to this: most annoying is when you're tailing them catching the perfect draft and they'll slow down or dab the brakes for no reason!

FM5's AI was pretty good. Don't know what went wrong.

 

[Ialyrn]

I can somewhat relate to this: most annoying is when you're tailing them catching the perfect draft and they'll slow down or dab the brakes for no reason!

FM5's AI was pretty good. Don't know what went wrong.

By the time you jumped into Forza Motorsport 5, people had already driven a lot in the game. And thus the drivatars had learnt from them in the process. Remember, the Drivatars are a learning AI.

In FM6, the drivatars are running on base data. That data does include some information from FM5 and FH2, but they still need time to learn in FM6. Things should improve on that front as the game matures. One thing that can help though, is by having a little more patience than you needed late into FM5. But that is a double edged sword, as some of the races are stupidly short again.

For me though, it is a none issue. As I am faster than the unbeatable AI, still, which is actually very annoying. More often than not, I am far ahead of them half way through the first lap. Even with the bigger grid size. In single player races, I just do not have a Challenge. That's why I end up hot lapping or drifting quite a bit, and racing online. As I just find the single player races boring and monotonous.

 

[Speedster911]

By the time you jumped into Forza Motorsport 5, people had already driven a lot in the game. And thus the drivatars had learnt from them in the process. Remember, the Drivatars are a learning AI.

In FM6, the drivatars are running on base data. That data does include some information from FM5 and FH2, but they still need time to learn in FM6. Things should improve on that front as the game matures. One thing that can help though, is by having a little more patience than you needed late into FM5. But that is a double edged sword, as some of the races are stupidly short again.

For me though, it is a none issue. As I am faster than the unbeatable AI, still, which is actually very annoying. More often than not, I am far ahead of them half way through the first lap. Even with the bigger grid size. In single player races, I just do not have a Challenge. That's why I end up hot lapping or drifting quite a bit, and racing online. As I just find the single player races boring and monotonous.

Excellent suggestion. The AI does evolve eventually. I should always play my game online right? To have the drivatars updated over time? Or can I also play offline, and the next time I get online.. all of that stuff gets accumulated and updated when there's a sync?

I can almost never seem to catch the no.1 AI car on unbeatable. Maybe I need to start using some serious mods + TCS.

 

[Ialyrn]

Excellent suggestion. The AI does evolve eventually. I should always play my game online right? To have the drivatars updated over time? Or can I also play offline, and the next time I get online.. all of that stuff gets accumulated and updated when there's a sync?

I can almost never seem to catch the no.1 AI car on unbeatable. Maybe I need to start using some serious mods + TCS.

If you drive offline (without an internet connection), I do not know if your own driveratar information gets updated. I will have to see if T10 have commented on that. As for other peoples drivatars, it should download the most recent data available when you hook you xbox to the internet again. Some have said though. That with no internet connection, FM6 reverts back to have the old AI that was in FM4 and the older Forza games. Regardless though, they was still running on the drivatar system. They just did not get updated information over the cloud. Drivatars (learning AI), have been in forza since the very first game. In FM1, you even had to train your own drivatar. You could race against it, and you could also have it race for you. With a reduced credit payout at the end of the race of course.

 

[RacerPaul]

This doesn't mean trying to make a pass that won't work though. The AI needs to be fixed, I shouldn't have to be rear ended at every tight corner because they don't know how to brake

Indeed. Then there's the silly braking when there's no need. The amount of times I've smacked an AI because they've braked when they shouldn't

 

[Speedster911]

Indeed. Then there's the silly braking when there's no need. The amount of times I've smacked an AI because they've braked when they shouldn't

I know.. the AI deserves a smacking for involuntary (or voluntarily??) smacking their brakes..

@Ialyrn Recently pointed out that the Drivaturd uh sorry.. "Drivatar" AI needs time to learn the driving patterns of their respective players.. and slowly everything starts to sync and they do get better.

But the question is.. if majority of Forza drivers are wreckless and drive dirty, are we stuck with bad AI in the game? Can we choose if we want to race against clean AI that practices good race craft vs dirty drivers? Prolly not.

Mmmm... give it time we must. *Master Yoda*

 

[Ialyrn]

I know.. the AI deserves a smacking for involuntary (or voluntarily??) smacking their brakes..

@Ialyrn Recently pointed out that the Drivaturd uh sorry.. "Drivatar" AI needs time to learn the driving patterns of their respective players.. and slowly everything starts to sync and they do get better.

But the question is.. if majority of Forza drivers are wreckless and drive dirty, are we stuck with bad AI in the game? Can we choose if we want to race against clean AI that practices good race craft vs dirty drivers? Prolly not.

Mmmm... give it time we must. *Master Yoda*

Actually, with regards to the drivatars braking during a corner. That appears to be a carry over from previous forza titles. The AI in FM4/FM3/FM2/FM1 would do exactly the same. But as I said, the AI on Forza have always been running on the drivatar system. It is just that T10 since FM5, have made it more advanced in some areas. And allowed people to download new drivatar data from the cloud in the process. Back in FM1, you was able to add a friends drivatar data into the game. But they needed to physically bring it over on an original xbox memory card. Though it could be sent over the internet, assuming both parties owned an action replay save game device.

http://research.microsoft.com/en-us/projects/drivatar/forza.aspx

This is a 10 year old Microsoft research article on drivatars, and as you will be able to see. Not much has changed at all in those 10 years, baring the game automatically downloading others drivatar data from the cloud. The Drivatars are not a new technology for the Forza Motorsport series at all. T10 used it as a selling point of FM5, and they also used it as a selling point for FM1 on the original Xbox back in 2005.

 

[RacerPaul]

Does anyone think that a scripted (programmed, coded, whatever the correct term might be) AI
would be better than having Drivatars?

I'm on the fence. Drivatars sound like a good idea in theory but they don't seem to be much cop

I'm interested in hearing from others who are more knowledgeable on the subject 👍

 

[Parcells2]

On the assumption the Drivatar technology truly does what it’s supposed to do, the AI has little choice but to be terrible drivers because of the way Turn10 set up the career races.


If you set the AI difficulty to near your skill level it is near impossible to drive a clean race and finish on the podium while starting mid-pack in such a short race. So under these circumstances you have to drive aggressively in order to advance your career and if the Drivatar technology does work your Drivatar will be aggressive on-line against other people because Turn10 forced you to drive aggressively in order to advance.


You could set the AI difficulty to a skill level way below yours to advance your career while still driving cleanly but racing against inferior opponents sucks too so what’s a Parcells to do?


What I did was send a personal apology to all the guys I regularly race with apologizing for the poor behavior of my Drivatar…don’t mind being labelled a slow driver but it hurts me when I’m labelled a dirty driver which is the only conclusion you could come to if you’re racing against my Drivatar and he drives as poorly as I’ve had to in order to advance my career.


Serenity now!

 

[Ialyrn]

Does anyone think that a scripted (programmed, coded, whatever the correct term might be) AI
would be better than having Drivatars?

I'm on the fence. Drivatars sound like a good idea in theory but they don't seem to be much cop

I'm interested in hearing from others who are more knowledgeable on the subject 👍

The AI in Forza has never been as simple as "scripted" though. If you read the link I posted in my last post in here, it will give you all the information regarding the drivatar system. Which, as I have stated, has been running the AI in Forza since the very beginning (10 years that is). And that you could even race against your friends Drivatars in FM1, assuming they psychically gave you their drivatar data from FM1. The only difference in terms of the drivatar system now, and back then. Is that the cloud has allowed us to get the drivatars from everyone who plays Forza, the world over.

 

[RacerPaul]

@Ialyrn

I get how they do it with the cloud I was just wondering if 'scripted' AI would be less flaky

 

[ImaRobot]

On the assumption the Drivatar technology truly does what it’s supposed to do, the AI has little choice but to be terrible drivers because of the way Turn10 set up the career races.


If you set the AI difficulty to near your skill level it is near impossible to drive a clean race and finish on the podium while starting mid-pack in such a short race. So under these circumstances you have to drive aggressively in order to advance your career and if the Drivatar technology does work your Drivatar will be aggressive on-line against other people because Turn10 forced you to drive aggressively in order to advance.

It would be half and half I would assume. You're drivatar can also collect data from you're hotlapping as well.

What I did was send a personal apology to all the guys I regularly race with apologizing for the poor behavior of my Drivatar…don’t mind being labelled a slow driver but it hurts me when I’m labelled a dirty driver which is the only conclusion you could come to if you’re racing against my Drivatar and he drives as poorly as I’ve had to in order to advance my career.


Serenity now!

This reminds me, one of my friends sent me a video of my drivatar smashing him like no other, it was hilarious but embarassing all at the same time

 

[Speedster911]

On the assumption the Drivatar technology truly does what it’s supposed to do, the AI has little choice but to be terrible drivers because of the way Turn10 set up the career races.


If you set the AI difficulty to near your skill level it is near impossible to drive a clean race and finish on the podium while starting mid-pack in such a short race. So under these circumstances you have to drive aggressively in order to advance your career and if the Drivatar technology does work your Drivatar will be aggressive on-line against other people because Turn10 forced you to drive aggressively in order to advance.


You could set the AI difficulty to a skill level way below yours to advance your career while still driving cleanly but racing against inferior opponents sucks too so what’s a Parcells to do?


What I did was send a personal apology to all the guys I regularly race with apologizing for the poor behavior of my Drivatar…don’t mind being labelled a slow driver but it hurts me when I’m labelled a dirty driver which is the only conclusion you could come to if you’re racing against my Drivatar and he drives as poorly as I’ve had to in order to advance my career.


Serenity now!

This makes a lot of sense. And explains to a great degree why the AI behaves the way it does.

Really wish we had qualifying in this game.

Wouldn't it have been interesting, if T10 consulted/hired real race drivers and got them to do a couple of laps on the game's tracks.. and translate their data? Drivers from all kinds of motorsports and skill levels.

Though I imagine it would send their budget through the roof.

The game really needs a qualifying session. And sadly, as long as the majority of players will be aggressive drivers not really practicing good, clean race craft.. we're going to have the AI behaving the way it does. I hope my drivatar doesn't give anyone a hard time; I'm a good, clean precision driver.

 

[killerjimbag]

This makes a lot of sense. And explains to a great degree why the AI behaves the way it does.

Really wish we had qualifying in this game.

Wouldn't it have been interesting, if T10 consulted/hired real race drivers and got them to do a couple of laps on the game's tracks.. and translate their data? Drivers from all kinds of motorsports and skill levels.

Though I imagine it would send their budget through the roof.

The game really needs a qualifying session. And sadly, as long as the majority of players will be aggressive drivers not really practicing good, clean race craft.. we're going to have the AI behaving the way it does. I hope my drivatar doesn't give anyone a hard time; I'm a good, clean precision driver.

This is one of my main reasons I haven't bought the game,tried it at my friends yesterday,terrible online drivers,which is norm with any game on next gen consoles. Can't qualify,have to wait for everyone to start a race.
Going over budget by getting test drivers? Uhmm PCars did it,I'm pretty sure T10's budget was ten times SMS's budget.

 

[Speedster911]

This is one of my main reasons I haven't bought the game,tried it at my friends yesterday,terrible online drivers,which is norm with any game on next gen consoles. Can't qualify,have to wait for everyone to start a race.
Going over budget by getting test drivers? Uhmm PCars did it,I'm pretty sure T10's budget was ten times SMS's budget.

Well, AI aside, it is a great product. Even when you're not racing, you can tune up cars and hot lap the heck out of them. That never gets old.

The AI will evolve eventually.. and if you and your friends mostly drive clean then that's how the AI behaves. However, we don't really know who drives clean and who doesn't. I guess the game just selects a random pool which includes good and bad drivers. I'm no Forza AI expert though.

Forza 5's AI was actually pretty good. Give 6 a little bit of time. Scroll up and check out some of @Ialyrn's explanations.

 

[killerjimbag]

Well, AI aside, it is a great product. Even when you're not racing, you can tune up cars and hot lap the heck out of them. That never gets old.

The AI will evolve eventually.. and if you and your friends mostly drive clean then that's how the AI behaves. However, we don't really know who drives clean and who doesn't. I guess the game just selects a random pool which includes good and bad drivers. I'm no Forza AI expert though.

Forza 5's AI was actually pretty good. Give 6 a little bit of time. Scroll up and check out some of @Ialyrn's explanations.

AI aside? It's brutal, I buy racing games to race,not hotlap. Like I said before,I think every new gen racing game/sim is terrible for online. Seems like every idiot in the world happens to be in my room. At least in PCars you can practice,qualify,warmup then race. Not happening in Forza. Don't get it,but oh well.

 

[Speedster911]

AI aside? It's brutal, I buy racing games to race,not hotlap. Like I said before,I think every new gen racing game/sim is terrible for online. Seems like every idiot in the world happens to be in my room. At least in PCars you can practice,qualify,warmup then race. Not happening in Forza. Don't get it,but oh well.

Yeah, well.. if you're really into online racing.. and a challenge.. then Forza isn't it.

 

[killerjimbag]

Yeah, well.. if you're really into online racing.. and a challenge.. then Forza isn't it.

Isn't that why they test games before release? Every new game is crap at release,Driveclub,PCars,Forza. I buy games for online,career is meh in Forza,at best. As for dumbing down the AI and having to hit a rewind button every race,not my cup of tea.

 

[PzR Slim]

Isn't that why they test games before release? Every new game is crap at release,Driveclub,PCars,Forza. I buy games for online,career is meh in Forza,at best. As for dumbing down the AI and having to hit a rewind button every race,not my cup of tea.

It's the hardly the games fault though is it? Retards litter every online game the world over. Only guaranteed way to get clean, fair racing is to meet a group of like minded people looking to do the same. There are plenty of them out there. I've been racing with several groups on all sorts of games since Forza 2. You really see the games as they were meant to be then.

 

[killerjimbag]

It's the hardly the games fault though is it? Retards litter every online game the world over. Only guaranteed way to get clean, fair racing is to meet a group of like minded people looking to do the same. There are plenty of them out there. I've been racing with several groups on all sorts of games since Forza 2. You really see the games as they were meant to be then.

If the Drivertards are based on the people playing Forza,well good luck. From what I saw yesterday, it will be about a year before it is remotely close. Don't get me wrong,PCars isn't much better. I race with the same guys daily since GT5. I only venture online waiting to race with them. Actually it is developers fault for not allowing to boot the idiots from the room. All our rooms are private online,only way to avoid it.

 

[PzR Slim]

If the Drivertards are based on the people playing Forza,well good luck. From what I saw yesterday, it will be about a year before it is remotely close. Don't get me wrong,PCars isn't much better. I race with the same guys daily since GT5. I only venture online waiting to race with them. Actually it is developers fault for not allowing to boot the idiots from the room. All our rooms are private online,only way to avoid it.

I can't believe anybody truly buys all this drivatar crap and that you are effectively playing against your friends in single player. It's a load of baloney, I've raced against my friends in multiplayer for years and not a single one of them display the tendencies their drivatars do in single player. It either does an incredibly bad job of replicating them or it's just standard but shoot AI

 

[HAL20XX]

I can't believe anybody truly buys all this drivatar crap and that you are effectively playing against your friends in single player. It's a load of baloney, I've raced against my friends in multiplayer for years and not a single one of them display the tendencies their drivatars do in single player. It either does an incredibly bad job of replicating them or it's just standard but shoot AI

Is it possible their single-player behavior is more aggressive than their multi-player behavior? I know mine is.

 

[UKMikey]

Is it possible their single behavior is more aggressive than their multi-player behavior? I know mine is.

What @Parcells2 said, basically.

 

[Parcells2]

Only guaranteed way to get clean, fair racing is to meet a group of like minded people looking to do the same.

Until you figure this truth out you're doomed to race against morons.

It's been like this for almost forever with zero reasons to believe it will change for the better any time soon.

Disclaimer: the last sentence and my entire point for that matter is based on second hand information...I've actually not raced in a public lobby for 6 years or more I'm guessing.