World champions??

Discussion in 'Sports' started by Dennisch, Feb 6, 2011.

  1. Dennisch

    Dennisch Premium

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    You need to tell me why when, in an American League (NFL/MLB) an American team who wins either the Superbowl or the World Series, they become world champions?? The rest of the world doesn't compete in those leagues?

    Tell me!
     
  2. JohnBM01

    JohnBM01 Premium

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    Part of the mindset is usually that we're the best at our profession. So somehow, since there's no one even in the same league as us, we're somehow the "World" champions. I don't hear of the English Premier League or UEFA champs as World Champs, and America and Canada is NOT the world. I don't get it myself.

    By the way (and as a cheap plug), I mentioned this in my blog with this same title. Only I call it "WORLD Champions? (emphasis on the word 'World')".

    Congratulations to the winner of whatever sport where some people views or calls their DOMESTIC champs as WORLD champs. You rule your league, but you're not a legit WORLD champion.
     
  3. Northstar

    Northstar Premium

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    Not sure but I think it's a take on the "world of" phrase.
     
  4. Joel

    Joel Premium

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    To be fair, there's not a football team outside of the USA that could beat even the worst team in the NFL. An allstar team of CFL players would get destroyed.
     
  5. Kurumi

    Kurumi Premium

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    They are the World Champions because North America is really the only continent in the world that plays American Football well. :dunce:
     
  6. DKLion3s

    DKLion3s

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    What's also interesting is, when basketball and baseball were introduced in the olympics, the US thought they had it in the bag. They almost got beat by China & Cuba. And if I'm not mistaken, they did get beat by China in basketball.

    I do think that if the rest of the world adopted some US only sports, it would be a serious game changer, even given the USs' experience in the game.
     
  7. Prosthetic

    Prosthetic

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    The problem with the Olympics is that the US's team never has the best in the country on the team because its always taken place in the middle of the season. And that is a business so usually its minor leaguers that are playing in the Olympics. No country produces as many quality players at least for Baseball. While the players in Japan are good, a high quality percentage fail when coming to the states. Baseball or Football just aren't as big in other countries as it is here. Except for a few South American (Dominican Republic mostly.)

    Also most people come from other countries to play in the US as it is a bigger stage to play on.
     
  8. DKLion3s

    DKLion3s

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    As far as baseball goes, Cuba has the best players of any country. In the last Olympics the team that was sent for basketball, had top players from the major franchises, they were cocky and lost to China because of it.


    Edit: In their defense for losing though (basketball-wise), I will say, they weren't given much time to get acquainted and adjusted with each others playing styles, as a team. They were just coming off the NBA schedule.
     
    Last edited: Feb 7, 2011
  9. Omnis

    Omnis Staff Emeritus

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    We've been over this in the opinions forum but I can't find the thread.

    They're world champions in baseball and football because the players come from around the world. It's pretty obvious in baseball-- there are SO many international players. The NFL also has a monopoly on top-flight football, so it is fair to say that Superbowl champs are also World champs.

    I'm positive that even the worst NFL team would handily defeat any champion from any other organized league in the world. The sport simply doesn't have the competitive access that soccer has. The NFL is serious business.
     
  10. DKLion3s

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    I don't deny the lack of appeal. However, if (big if), the world were joined at the hip in the way soccer or say cricket, table tennis and the like, I think it would tell a different story.
     
  11. Omnis

    Omnis Staff Emeritus

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    I don't think it would. Not at all, actually. NPB might be able to give MLB a run for its money if their pitchers brought their best stuff every game and their hitting was really on.

    There is no competition for Football, however. That's just not the nature of the game. If the players are really good, they come play in the NFL. If not, they're just scrubs. Case in point is Cameron Wake.
     
  12. DKLion3s

    DKLion3s

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    I don't think you're grasping the big picture. Case in point, all the international stars (most valuable, skilled, etc) players of soccer play in a league or club in the UK. Yet, when the world cup comes around, England does not have domination of the sport.

    This in part is due to widespread acceptance of the game throughout the international community. The big "if" I was referrencing is basically the widespread acceptance of football. I honestly think it would pan-out quite similarly as soccer does presently.
     
  13. Omnis

    Omnis Staff Emeritus

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    What world are you living in? You're seeing a picture that isn't there. The NFL has a monopoly on top-level football. If you are the best in the NFL, you are the best in the world. That's it.
     
  14. DKLion3s

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    Similarly, doesn't FIFA hold the monopoly on the world cup?

    Yes, it is a fact that the NFL has the monopoly, agreed. That's where my conjecture of "if" comes into the debate. If football was widely accepted in other coutries, then these countries would be churning out more players than they currently do, that's all I'm bringing to the table.

    No big fuss. It would be similar to any other internationally accepted sport.
     
  15. Prosthetic

    Prosthetic

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    Cuba does NOT have the best players in Baseball. The US produces a high majority of baseball stars. Right now there are 5-6 active decent to good baseball players from Cuba and I can name them if you really want. My Giants have more very good players born in the US right now on there active roster. MUCH more.

    I'm not talking about Basketball, I'm talking about the NFL and the US. Right now in both of those sports the US produces the highest amount of top rated players and is the place where most athletes of those respected sports want to play. They have all right to call them selves World Champions.
     
  16. Omnis

    Omnis Staff Emeritus

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    The world cup is a tournament, not a sport. :dunce:

    Re: the 2nd paragraph: What's your point? Millions of people play organized football across America. There are only 1696 activated NFL players. Scrubs will be scrubs no matter where they're from. If there is NFL-quality talent in Nigeria, they come play in the NFL.
     
  17. DKLion3s

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    Are we talking quantity or quality? There is a difference.

    And the NFL is not a tournament? Okay, question. Is the percentage of countries of the world represented well in the NFL, as they are in other very well established international sports?
     
  18. Omnis

    Omnis Staff Emeritus

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    We're talking both. You really don't seem to get it.

    No, the NFL is a league. It's not just a tournament of a particular sport. It is the exclusive collection of players able to compete at the highest level. There is no parallel to the NFL in the entire world. Your question doesn't matter one bit because, as you should know, the NFL is not limited to just Americans. Access is only limited by ability and performance.

    You don't have to be playing under the banner of a country to be a world champion. If the NFL is a collection of the best the world has to offer, then it follows that to be NFL champion means you are world champion.

    Now please stop wasting time with useless hypotheticals and acknowledge that this is the reality. There is nothing more to discuss.
     
    Last edited: Feb 7, 2011
  19. Prosthetic

    Prosthetic

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    Could be either... There are only 24 active Cuban players in the MLB. More are somewhere in the minors but most of them are irrelevant anyways.

    Venezuela
    United States
    Puerto Rico
    Dominican Republic
    Canada
    Japan

    All have more active players in the MLB. If anyone could compete with the US its Venezuela.
     
  20. TwinturboCH

    TwinturboCH

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    Just because no-one else competes against you doesn't make you world champions. If I chose to jerk off while rubbing my nipples with sandpaper, the fact that no-one else does it doesn't make me world champion LOL
     
  21. DKLion3s

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    I already new and understood your point and the facts involved, the topic is open for discussion, hence the inducement of hypotheticals. From your point of view, hypotheticals should be eliminated from the academic field, hence the stunting of thought, creativity and innovation. With me that does not happen, it has become habitual.

    Just as the facts are right now that the US is still an infant in soccer, and since it's popularity has grown, in the US, so has their international team. The conclusion of this finding is based on the fact that with popularity, there was a larger pool to pull talent from.

    Edit: Aside from the natural Universe, nothing is carved in titanium. As far as I know.

    Understood! Discussion ended!



    I choose Cuba over Venezuela due to the population size and the success rate within the participating members of the country. Cuba has a very high talent rate, considering they have such smaller numbers to pool from.

    Most of this info I base on sports documentaries of Cuba, I've seen from publicly funded outlets, such as PBS.
     
    Last edited: Feb 7, 2011
  22. Omnis

    Omnis Staff Emeritus

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    What you're ignoring is the exclusivity of the NFL. The Premiership, La Liga, Serie A, they are all leagues filled with international players and there are all competitive with each other. That simply isn't the case with American football. There only exists the NFL. Everything else is a bunch of scrubs in comparison.
     
  23. Prosthetic

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    I'm a pretty hardcore baseball fan.. I grew up on it and have a very in-depth understanding of the game. Right now in baseball the best player from Cuba is Kendry Morales the starting 1st basemen for the Angels. Good player, not great but good. Top 15 first basemen in baseball potentially if he doesn't do have a another stupid injury this year. That said the only other players that stick out are Alexei Ramirez, Yunel Escobar and a unproven Aroldis Chapman. That's pretty good first basemen with one good year, two shortstops that have good potential and plenty of career left and a unproven pitcher who can throw hard but has been knocked around in the big league. A few other active but most of them have had very limited success in the big leagues. That isn't a very high percentage and I could very easily name more better players from above listed countries and maybe more.

    But this thread isn't the place to talk about these individual players, and this is all completely off subject.

    The matter of fact is that the US is where players come to test there skills. Look at Ichiro Suzuki who has become a great player. He dominated Japanese pitching and came to the US to put him self to the test. He succeeded, but how many Japanese players can say that? Not many. In fact this recent off season one of Japans better pitcher couldn't get a contract with the A's. While he could have, but the asking price was to high as US team owners know that the chances of him bringing that success here is unlikely.

    The USA, home of Baseball at this point in time is the ultimate stage that a high majority of global players want to make. It is the final stage that even local kids struggle to get too. What we here aren't talking about who has the most, we are talking about who is the best. And the honest to goodness truth is that most if not all MLB teams could beat the best teams from other countries. I'm not saying that the best players are American although we do produce the highest percentage of them but the not very arguably best active player is Dominican.

    I don't see much that can be argued on this matter... In Baseball and Football the final frontier is the USA. After all we did create the sports.
     
  24. DKLion3s

    DKLion3s

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    Hence the problem why most individuals outside of the US are puzzled at the "World Champions" title associated with such sports.

    World championships are generally associated with an all inclusive process, not exclusive process.


    Edit:

    England can probably lay claim to the origins of Soccer & Cricket, but because it has been widely accepted in many countries, they are no longer the masters of the sport.
     
    Last edited: Feb 7, 2011
  25. Famine

    Famine Administrator

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    Imagine, if you will, that American Football suddenly has an epiphany and, instead of holding an intra-national tournament, holds an inter-national tournament to determine which nation is the best at American Football.

    Who'd win?

    Yup. So it doesn't really make much sense to hold this kind of tournament really. It'd be a lot of hassle and expense for nothing. Given that it's a predetermined result, how does one determine who the best collection of players in the world really is? By holding an intra-national tournament.

    Now, baseball I agree with you. It's ridiculous to win the "World" Series and call yourself "World Champions". But American Football? Seems pretty well justifiable to me.


    As a side note, I reckon that, if it were possible, the FIFA World Cup winners - currently Spain - who call themselves "World Champions" would have a hard time agains the FIFA Club World Cup winners - currently Internazionale. So who are the "World Champions" of Association Football?
     
  26. TwinturboCH

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    And it's EXACTLY that reasoning and blatant arrogance that leads everyone else on the planet the believe americans are insular xenophobes ;)

    As above on the 'America is best' front. Seriously, you guys need to realise that just because you invented something doesn't mean you're the greatest. Henry Ford pretty much invented the car as we know it today (with the model T) and yet American cars nowadays are some of the WORST on sale.
     
  27. DKLion3s

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    It was this general thought process that caused most around the world to laugh at the US when they entered the World Cup three world cups ago. Look at them now. Everyone has to start somewhere, sometime.


    See what I mean. This process though is all inclusive.
     
  28. Omnis

    Omnis Staff Emeritus

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    :rolleyes: You're going back here again? American football is all inclusive. It does not discriminate on where you come from. It is open to the world as long as you can bring the talent to be competitive. Tamba Hali is one of the best and he's from Liberia. Osi Umenyiora is English-Nigerian. Vladimir Ducasse is Haitian. So, again, if the best team they could assemble has been selected from a (literally) WORLD of players, then they deserve to call themselves world champions.

    If you want to continue to go on about baseball, fine. The football discussion is over though.
     
  29. Famine

    Famine Administrator

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    Err... what?

    The thought process that means it's irrelevant for there to be an international American Football tournament because the US would win it meant that everyone laughed at the US for entering the FIFA World Cup "three world cups ago" (you know, ignoring the bit where they hosted the one before that, played in the one before that and, in fact, played in the very first one in 1930)?

    I have absolutely no idea how you get from one to the other there.


    What's not inclusive about the Superbowl? All of the world's professional American Football teams are included. That's more than you can say about the FIFA World Cup or the FIFA Club World Cup.
     
  30. DKLion3s

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    If the NFL is all inclusive, then why does it not generate the kind of audience that Soccer has?