World champions??

Discussion in 'Sports' started by Dennisch, Feb 6, 2011.

  1. spiker

    spiker

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    My argument is based on my conclusion that you can not wholly refute the title of "World Champion". I start by crowning a champion as a "World Champion" and then ask the question "Is there anyone who is talented enough to challenge?" In the case of the NFL and American football, there is no one team outside of the NFL who is talented enough to challenge. The NFL is the premier professional American football league and anything is else #2 at best. Therefore, the NFL champion is the "World Champion".

    When you get into baseball or basketball, you need establish that MLB and the NBA are the premier professional leagues for their respective sports because there are high level professional leagues around the world. You would do this by asserting that the world's most talented baseball and basketball players come to MLB and NBA after they've reached the pinnacle of their own home country's league.

    The simple way for me to explain why the rest of the international community rejects the idea of an NFL champion being a "World Champ" is this:

    But that is just impossible to prove. Being an American who posts at this site, I've seen more than one occasion of blind American hate and I haven't even been here that long so I know it's there. People hate America and just assume we are arrogant for crowning our league champs as "World Champs".

    Edit: Famine beat me to the punch.
     
  2. F1 fan

    F1 fan Premium

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    Haha.

    It's a difficult one. The nfl has no real competition, so by default the "champions" or winners of the superbowl, have the right to call themselves world champions.

    FYI, I enjoy American Football and watch the superbowl, but I am no expert. I have a basic understanding of the game, so I'm not going to get involved in heavy debate. I did laugh when I heard the packers being called world champions at the end of the superbowl, but when you think of it if you are champions of a national league that has no real competition, you have the right to call yourself a world champion, although there is no real competition.

    You're still the best in the world, but in order to be the best, you have to win a national league, which is made up of players of the same nationality (and here's where I may be wrong, like I said, I'm no expert) and in order to compete you have to be american, either by birth, family or just plain naturalisation and immigration.

    Re the last paragraph, don't jump on me if it's wrong. I freely hold my hand up and say I'm no expert. The above paragraph is merely my assumptions. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
     
  3. DKLion3s

    DKLion3s

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    So from the supporters of the title "World Champions", I gather/conclude that it's inferred, that racism (figuratively) against a nationality, being the US, is the cause the title isn't widely accepted. Interesting.

    All I can say to that is, that's how it all started. It's just happening in reverse, doesn't make it rational either way.

    Thanks for endulging me in this debate.


    Regards
     
  4. Famine

    Famine Administrator

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    Largely the way of the world, I'm afraid. Much of the rest of the world sees the US as a population of fat, lazy, stupid oafs with the attention span of ... oooh, that puppy's red! American Football is derided as "rugby for poofs", baseball as rounders with impenetrable rules and basketball as netball without the nouse. Ice Hockey fares better, but is generally taken as fighting with the occasional bout of sport - and the stigma of being so lazy you need a low friction surface to glide on instead of running.

    You get the idea.

    The declaration of the Superbowl winners to be World Champions is often held as a symbol of American arrogance when, in fact, it's the most accurate of the US domestic sports with regards to the claim of world champions.
     
  5. DKLion3s

    DKLion3s

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    I tell you what I do know, if this debate had taken place anywhere else, that I'm aware of, other than on GTP, it wouldn't be winding down or unfolding nowhere near this type of quality, substance and civility.

    Now mark-you, I am very much aware of hostility towards the US, I'm guessing I didn't realise the extent. If what you're presenting is the case.

    Edit: It would be quite interesting, if there was a way to measure these findings, to gauge how widespread it is. I guess polls could come into play here.


    Yes, this is fact.


    Edit: Conclusion: Hatred begets hatred; Racism begets racism. The human condition in all it's imperfections.

    Sir Newton won again, it may seem. For every action, there's an opposite and equal reaction.


    Regards
     
    Last edited: Feb 11, 2011
  6. spiker

    spiker

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    That is not correct. Participants of American sports do not have to be US citizens at all. MLB and the NBA are full of individuals who come from all over the world to compete. There are not many NFL players from outside of the US because American football is not played all over the world. Still, there are some players from other countries who do compete in the NFL.
     
  7. DKLion3s

    DKLion3s

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    They are either naturalized citizens or resident aliens. Temporary visas may be an option, I'm not sure.



    Regards
     
  8. spiker

    spiker

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    From a logical standpoint, there is no way to explain why someone would not accept the NFL Champion as a "World Champion".

    Let me tell you a bit about myself - my profession is an auditor. Auditing is when Person A tells Person B a statement and they want to pass it off as a fact. An auditor comes in and examines the evidence of Person A's statement to verify whether it is true or not. You have to have a clear and solid starting point in order to audit something.

    Now, within the context of this debate, we're disputing a statement that is trying to be passed as fact: "The NFL Champions are World Champions." Person A has made a statement - let's try to verify it logically. That is what I did.

    DK, What you are doing is trying to prove a negative (or non-existant) exists. It is an incredibly difficult logical standpoint to take, as you can see. You are struggling to find a starting point and you're running around in circles trying to drum up support for a conclusion that you've already arrived at without actually proving it. You've brought in racism, origins of sport, world history to no logical avail. Yet you dismiss any logic presented as "my own perspective". Your position in the argument is weak and it is very frustrating for all of us because you won't admit you might even be slightly wrong, even when confronted with indisputable facts. :lol:
     
  9. spiker

    spiker

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    So you admit that people from all over the world compete in American sports? Not sure what difference it makes what their legal status is.
     
  10. DKLion3s

    DKLion3s

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    You need to read the OP again. Debating is just that, debating. Right or wrong doesn't come into context here. Both sides of the equation exists, hence the debate. Irrelevant which side I choose to debate from.


    I have not denied the existence of non-US-citizen/foreign nationals in US sports. Go back and read the entire thread.

    You both are drumming up something, that doesn't exist, from your own perception.


    This isn't a court of law, it's a debate. In order for a debate to take place, there has to be more than one side. That simple. Just because I choose the opposing side from the both of you, doesn't equate to right or wrong. They still both exist.



    Final answer.
     
    Last edited: Feb 11, 2011
  11. spiker

    spiker

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    I don't care which side you debate either. I'm saying you haven't proven anyone wrong because you aren't starting in the right spot. Someone made a statement that has not been logically proven wrong yet. Take the statement that "the NFL Champs are the world champs" and then logically refute it. Don't just tell me to look something up or re-read the thread or I'm stating a personal perspective because you're dodging the issue. Tell me exactly why I'm wrong.

    And nor Famine or I are drumming up anything. The only opinion I made was that people tend to hate the US. That may or may not be a fact but I can't prove it so I'd classify it as opinion. My whole, main argument is based on fact. It's all here for anyone to see right up above.
     
  12. spiker

    spiker

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    You forgot ugly. :sly:
     
  13. DKLion3s

    DKLion3s

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    The percentages/figures were debated in right & wrong terms, however the title "World Champions" was being debated as "why". I haven't tried to prove you wrong.


    It still so happens that Race/Hate/Prejudice/Nationalism, however you choose to term it, is the cause of the present situation surrounding the title.

    I was getting ready to get out the house, I didn't realise that I quoted you twice in the last post I made, that's how the word "both" ended up in that post.

    Regards.


    Edit: Famine & myself went about the debate along separate avenues, however as you can see for yourself, it came full circle to the same conclusion being racism/hate/nationalism/prejudice, pick your poison. It basically boils down to the same answer to the "Why" question.


    And just so you don't confuse this any further, I choose the head of the dragon as the cause, while Famine choose the tail. However it's still a dragon.
     
    Last edited: Feb 11, 2011
  14. spiker

    spiker

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    I've enjoyed re-reading this thread again. Almost all of your posts has some sort of misstated fact that could have easily been corrected with a quick google search or even worse, a nonsensical point. You've been trumped by almost everyone who challenges you, yet you persist through the debate as if you can't ever be wrong. It's a deadly combo - not taking the time to inform yourself of the simple facts and then never believing you are wrong.
     
  15. DKLion3s

    DKLion3s

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    The limited figures provided, to so call trump me, could not substantiate itself in this debate. A handful of players in the league here and there, an off moment of reprise to substantiate the vast differences between US sports & the rest of the international sporting community.

    If you want to operate on minimal samples that's your prerogative. I don't need to google much for my efforts, it is as vast as the world itself, meaning of greater percentages. International sports carry more weight than US sports period, has more internationally involved countries, and is by far more accepted.

    I don't need google for that. That's the facts.

    You and others need google to find the needles in the haysack, to back the claim of "World Champion".

    All I've done is expose it for what it is. They have every right to call themselves what they want, and the rest of the world has every right to refute it.
     
  16. spiker

    spiker

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    You haven't really exposed anything, though.
     
  17. DKLion3s

    DKLion3s

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    Maybe not to you, but to someone less aware.
     
  18. spiker

    spiker

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    And you keep dodging questions, too. You've been called on that by at least three people. Don't you think there's something to that?
     
  19. spiker

    spiker

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    If you're going to insult me, at least get that right.
     
  20. DKLion3s

    DKLion3s

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    It's called growing up in a different era, when people actually were left to do some thinking and didn't have all this technology to lean on.


    You really think this is about you, don't you?
     
  21. Dennisch

    Dennisch Premium

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    Awesome, the debate is still going strong, with no end in sight! Awesome.
     
  22. DKLion3s

    DKLion3s

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    Well end it, what's your conclusion? You started it and haven't chimed in yet?



    :idea:




    :D
     
  23. Dennisch

    Dennisch Premium

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    I've been reading along, but found no definitive answer.

    It's like an dupe/trade is cheating/part of the game-thread.
    I think it stays unresolved.

    Let's keep it like this : The Packers are the 2011 champions of the world of American Football. Read it how you like, and keep debating :tup:

    Awesome.
     
  24. DKLion3s

    DKLion3s

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    Looks as if you came to some compromise as the OP Originator, and is comfortable with it.


    Seeya round the Planet!


    :sly:
     
  25. spiker

    spiker

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    Wow. You actually dodged a question about... dodging questions. Are you a politician by chance? If you aren't, you should consider it running for office. The ignorance combined with arrogance thing will get you far in politics.

    Second off, critical thinking isn't exclusive to your generation, whatever generation that is. I don't know why you assume no one else is from your generation either. The fact of the matter is, you don't know exactly who you are debating on the internet.
     
  26. Pupik

    Pupik Staff Emeritus

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    I might add, a game with two not-so great teams.

    By the way, I'm sending an e-mail to Bernie Ecclestone and Jean Todt of the to stop calling the world's premier racing series the FIA Formula One World Championship, because there's no American drivers or race in America.

    Whoops...that would be foolhardy; many Americans (although there's any number of exclusions, see our F1 forum) do not care enough about the sport to field a team, make a real effort to lure a race (Austin, Texas is giving it a shot), nor can we find a driver who's willing to prepare and can complete with (some of) the best in the world. Many drivers wouldn't bother for the sake of taking home fame and fortune in the Unites States in NASCAR and IndyCar with a tenth of the pressure and nearly the same dough.

    Without a serious bid from a non-American, American Football team, there has been no attempt to pit an American-only NFL-style team against the rest-of-the-world/nation's-best. Not that I've heard of, at least. The best players from other nations join the NFL to play for our "premier" league and thus, our premier teams. If you are the best, you work for the best employers, plain and simple*.

    The best basketball players form around the world generally play in the National Basketball Association; the United States fields pretty good teams in the World Championships and the Olympics from time to time, and usually wins that. They are not always the best, but there's a little less focus and less chemistry at times...but witness our Dream Team of 1992, and there's little doubt USA Basketball could do it every time if there was a little more commitment.

    Any ice hockey arguments? Didn't think so.

    As for the World Cup, the United States puts up a decent fight, but even our best can't beat Ghana. I would imagine that if it were more of a priority (which isn't really likely for a long time), we'd probably be even better if our top athletes trained for generations for the ultimate apex of playing soccer (football, not American Football). I think since it's not a priority, it is going to be hard to field a team that can ultimately compete with the world's best players and teams.

    * = Okay, potentially upcoming labor strike might make this argument irrelevant.
     
  27. spiker

    spiker

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    Pupik's post made me ask myself a good question: Why does it seem the rest of the world gets upset when an American team considers itself a "World Champion" but Americans could care less if any league outside of the US considers itself a "World Champion"?

    Now, I know this is hypothetical and I'm sure there's exceptions to the rule but by and large, most Americans could care less if you want to crown yourself a world champion. Take soccer for example. The English Premier League arguably attracts the most talented soccer players from all over the world. If they are talented enought, America's most talented soccer players would play in the EPL instead of the MLS. We're not so arrogant to believe the best soccer in the world is played here nor would we be so delusional to think our MLS squads would have a chance to compete in any European league. If the EPL wants to crown their champion a "World Champion", let them. I'm sure Europeans would debate about which European soccer league is the best but that's more of a debate than the NFL Champions not being World Champions of American football.
     
  28. Famine

    Famine Administrator

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    There are club level international competitions too.

    All of the top teams in European footballing nations (that is members of UEFA) are put into a competition called the Champions' League. They play a couple of small league rounds and then there's a knockout competition at the end. This year's final will be at Wembley and the winners crowned the champions of Europe.

    Above even that is a competition called the FIFA Club World Cup. Into this go the winners of the above UEFA Champions League and five other teams that have won their continental equivalent: the South American Copa Libertadores; the North American CONCACAF Champions' League; the Asian AFC Champions League; the African CAF Champions League; the Oceania OFC Champions League. The final entrants are the winners of the host nation's top division - which for the last two years has been the United Arab Emirates (represented by Al-Ahli and Al-Wahda in 2009 and 2010 respectively) but which will be Japan in 2011. The winners of this competition are crowned the FIFA Club World Champions.
     
  29. spiker

    spiker

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    Thanks for explaining that. I thought there was some European club championship but I wasn't aware of a Club World Cup. All of the leagues and tournaments can be confusing if you aren't up on it.
     
  30. DKLion3s

    DKLion3s

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    Here's what's interesting. Nowhere threw this debate have I denied the US of "not being the best" at what they do in regards to the leagues in question, nor have I denied the openness of the leagues in accepting foreign (ones who can afford, finance, participate) nationals.

    The debate from my perspective is the title itself. Let's cut the debate into two sides now. There's the side in which yourself, Famine, Omnis, Prosthetics and many others stand on, "They are the best, so in turn makes them World Champions", very legitimate stance for this debate.

    Then there's the opposing side to the debate, "There isn't sufficient infiltration from other countries to facillitate the title of world Champions"

    So it is very obvious that if the world's population would accept the fact that if a team/individual is the best at something then the title World Champion applies, it would only stand that there would be no debating the matter, period. And this debate in particular would have never taken place, but this situation is only present in an ideal world. (by the way, this is my position personally)

    Hence, it's obvious I have a dilema in this debate. I cannot debate the issue from a solely Ideal or a solely Hypothetical. Going solely by the Statics would suggest ...... ??? (which is the variable used as the platform for both sides of this debate)


    I choose the proliferation factor as the base. You stated you read the entire thread, so where would you like me to debate you from then? Seeing you don't like the stance that I took. Fill me in please.