2011 Formula 1 British Grand Prix

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Maybe this kind of talk will change when Vettel goes to Ferrari, surprising Horner and Red Bull.
I think it must happen, like how Alonso made it happen for him. It's in no small way the Schumacher effect.Vettel wants another 7 championship wins, but doing it in a Red Bull is 99% satisfying, doing it in a Ferrari would be 100% mission complete.
 

Let them race. If Webber would have overtaken Vettel then oh 🤬 well. If Vettel would have defended second and kept Mark behind him, then again, oh 🤬 well. The point being the results shouldn't be "adjusted" when it doesn't really favor you, considering Vettel, again, has a huge points lead.

I was thinking about the same,I guess that Hornet didn't want to take any risks,But I will agree that the battle should have take place,the problem is that the "backing" occur in a very late stage,when the race was almost over(in the last lap,after the first sector),so there was no way to know if Vettel would have given away his position,or indeed Webber would pass Vettel(and most importantly) cleanly,this is the sort of thing that they probably consider.
 
I don't need to do anything to be honest with you. Anything else?

And let's see if you'd be saying the same thing if it were you being told to slow down.

But it's not. I'll never be an F1 driver, or a racing driver for that matter. I'll never truly know what it feels like.
 
Vettel, go to Ferrari? I loled :P

As long as Vettel keeps his form up, and RBR keep churning out storming cars, I see no reason for him to jump ship. In any case, Alonso is pretty much the pefect driver for Ferrari. I actually can't think of anyone else, past or present who suits Ferrari more than that man, regardless of my personal feelings towards him.
 
I remember well the 7up livery of the F1 cars when I was a younger. I didn't know much about F1, or maybe even understand how a championship even works, but the colours were cool, and I new what 7up was, I think it made me more aware of the drink and I probably enjoyed it more and got an attachment to it in the subconscious. Would I be right in thinking the 7up cars were not championship leaders or winners?
You reminded me of the Jag's, whom were sponsored by Beck's...

03drivers.jpg

irvine1lg.jpg



A relatively young Mark Webber up top, Eddie Irvine down below. British Racing Green no less!
 
One interesting thought, I haven't really noticed anyone say anything about Ricciardo. I know it was his first Grand Prix, but on paper, he performed terribly today. Any news on why he was over a minute behind Liuzzi? I would like to see the reaction of those who talked up his chances before the race. For those watching on OneHd, what was their attitude towards his performance?
It may be just down to the fact that he never got a chance to drive this car, which he has never driven before this weekend, in a completely dry session. Accompanied by the fact that it was his very first Grand Prix. I've been following Ricciardo's career on-and-off up to this point, so I'm hoping he can put in a much better performance in the coming rounds. 👍


As for the rest of the race, I thoroughly enjoyed it, easily one of my favourite races this year. A few great drives up the field, in particular, Schumacher although he shouldn't have been in that position in the first place. There were some great battles throughout the field, Vettel vs. Hamilton and later on Webber had me on the edge of my seat. I loved the last lap fightback from Hamilton but perhaps McLaren left it a little late to tell Hamilton he could push. I'd also like to mention a nice consistent drive from Perez, he kept himself out of trouble and got himself in the points for the second time this year and first time since his Monaco crash. I'm not a big Ferrari fan but I was glad to see them rake in their first win of the season, Alonso drove a very nice race there.
 
Don't get me wrong, he can still fight, but I think if Red Bull are starting to favour Vettel, it's justified as he's bringing the lions' share of results. Put it this way, if you were in charge of a struggling midfield team and there was as big a performance deficit as there is at Red Bull, what would you do? Christian's job is to run a racing team. Currently, they're the best team in the highest category of the sport. Today, the best Red Bull could have achieved was a 1-2. They did that and their top performing driver extended his lead in the drivers championship. Win-Win.

What annoys me is people have such short memories.

Red Bull took a MASSIVE risk last season by not letting Webber take the title in Brazil, which they could have engineered. But no they let Vettel take the win and lucked in a little and Vettel took the championship. I'm cool with that their risk.

When what happened with Ferrari in Germany happened, who rolled in front of the cameras to criticize them? Mr Horner and his 'We let our drivers race' attitude and that Ferrari robbed the fans of a great race.

During the off-season he declared the rule change would not change this philosophy and that Red Bull would still let their drivers race.

Middle of the season with Vettel 80 points in the lead they ask a driver to hold off? Don't make me laugh.

It was fun to see him squirm when being interviewed by Ted after the race, very similar to what Stefano was doing a year ago.

F1 Fan you might as well change that name to Vettel Fan. Put it this way F1 Fan if it was the other way around you'd probably cry blue murder about how unfair it was. And you could bet your LIFE if it was the other way around position wise there would be no 'orders'. If you think anyone that has spoken out against Red Bull doesn't get why they did it you are wrong. But you can't trott out the 'We make F1 fun' and take the moral high ground when others do this, only to do it yourself.
 
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You miss a lot when you have to go to bed... why am I not surprised this has grown several pages in the interim?

One quick note about team orders... what happened, happened. Even after the radio transmission, Mark didn't seem to back off. In fact, he made one or two attempts after, then seemed to fall back and consider it an undue risk to try to overtake Vettel... I'm not surprised that Mark said he disregarded it.

"Team orders" like that, I'm fine with. You're telling the drivers not to do anything stupid. Like with Button and Hamilton last time out... fair enough... give the second driver a little bit of time to work something out (which Red Bull did), but if he can't make anything stick, make them calm down, because it's too risky... infinitely preferable to telling the lead driver to basically roll over and play dead...


Because he is an arrogant selfish git who whines a lot.

:lol: Too true... but boy is he a fantastic driver. Maybe you should refrain from predicting an Alonso win every single race... then he might win WDC. :D

I don't understand all this 'Alonso stole the show' talk going on in here.

I really don't, because from what I saw, it was rather RB pit error and Hamilton blocking (All legal, mind) that built a 12s gap BEFORE Vettel forced to pit for track position & new tyres, but nevermind.

Alonso had the pace. Even without Hamiltonian intervention or wheel nuts, Ferrari had the pace and ability to overtake Vettel in the pits.

Remember... Vettel had to go into fuel saving strategy at the end of the race... Alonso was still sitting pretty. It took all Vettel had just to stay ahead of Webber.


I'm actually surprised that there's no investigation into Hamilton's contact with Massa on the last corner. I'm not Hamilton bashing here - but he clearly gained an advantage after contact & Schumacher was unfairly given an 10s penalty for the exact same offense.

Schumacher plowed into the back of Kamui Kobayashi from a million miles away. Massa had overtaken Hamilton just at the corner. Hamilton was never obliged to give him more than one car width of room on the corner exit, yet Hamilton gave him half the track. In F1, the overtaking driver has to make the move stick, yet Massa turned in on Hamilton. This is why other people were saying that they hoped the incident would not result in a penalty for Massa. But I'm happy the stewards found no fault with Massa's overtake attempt.

And mind you... Lewis came off worse in that one... he lost an endplate... Massa didn't get a puncture. On the last corner, Massa went far wide and lost the race by 0.002 seconds. Can't get any more honest and exciting than that.

The only bit of really questionable driving from Hamilton today was some of his defense on Vettel... He almost seemed to make a double move in some instances, but in those, Vettel was not close enough and Hamilton was apparently aiming to get back on the racing line. If Vettel doesn't complain, I won't.

----

EDIT: I'm surprised nobody's complained about the extra practice and development laps Alonso got of the new circuit in the guise of nostalgic running of what is clearly an F150 disguised as a classic race car. When you're driving the wheels off of the damn thing, that's not a parade lap. :lol:
 
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What annoys me is people have such short memories.

Red Bull took a MASSIVE risk last season by not letting Webber take the title in Brazil, which they could have engineered. But no they let Vettel take the win and lucked in a little and Vettel took the championship. I'm cool with that their risk.

When what happened with Ferrari in Germany happened, who rolled in front of the cameras to criticize them? Mr Horner and his 'We let our drivers race' attitude and that Ferrari robbed the fans of a great race.

During the off-season he declared the rule change would not change this philosophy and that Red Bull would still let their drivers race.

Middle of the season with Vettel 80 points in the lead they ask a driver to hold off? Don't make me laugh.

You don't think I remember all that? The difference last year was that the two drivers were a lot closer, so both had a chance of winning the championship. Webber has shown so far this year that he is not performing to a high enough level. And as has been said before, another difference is that team orders were infact illegal last season, but they aren't now. Christian's trying to do the best for his team. In that instance, the order was correct. It was too late in the race to take a risk like that.

Only_in_f1
F1 Fan you might as well change that name to Vettel Fan. Put it this way F1 Fan if it was the other way around you'd probably cry blue murder about how unfair it was. And you could bet your LIFE if it was the other way around position wise there would be no 'orders'. If you think anyone that has spoken out against Red Bull doesn't get why they did it you are wrong. But you can't trott out the 'We make F1 fun' and take the moral high ground when others do this, only to do it yourself.

Today, I got involved in a huge arguement which included two moderators. One of whom revealed that I apparently get reported quite a lot. May I remind you that whilst I may have been reported before, I have had not so much as a warning from a moderator, so I clearly haven't done anything wrong. As a matter of fact, I am considering raising this issue with another moderator, as I don't think it's appropriate for a mod to be washing dirty laundry in public. Especially when you consider the fact that I haven't done anything wrong. If I had, then surely one of the mods who read the reports about me would have taken some sort of action. As for you, stop making assumptions about me. They're unfounded and immature.
 
You don't think I remember all that? The difference last year was that the two drivers were a lot closer, so both had a chance of winning the championship. Webber has shown so far this year that he is not performing to a high enough level. And as has been said before, another difference is that team orders were infact illegal last season, but they aren't now. Christian's trying to do the best for his team. In that instance, the order was correct. It was too late in the race to take a risk like that.

That has nothing to do with the point I'm trying to make. Fact is Red Bull could have lost that title last season, hardly good for the team is it? But they took a risk and it paid off.

I'm only against they hypocrisy, not the idea.

Today, I got involved in a huge arguement which included two moderators. One of whom revealed that I apparently get reported quite a lot. May I remind you that whilst I may have been reported before, I have had not so much as a warning from a moderator, so I clearly haven't done anything wrong. As a matter of fact, I am considering raising this issue with another moderator, as I don't think it's appropriate for a mod to be washing dirty laundry in public. Especially when you consider the fact that I haven't done anything wrong. If I had, then surely one of the mods who read the reports about me would have taken some sort of action. As for you, stop making assumptions about me. They're unfounded and immature.

...What the hell does this have to do with anything?
 
F1 Fan, Only_in_F1, let's cool it and just agree to disagree for the meantime?

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@Grayfox: Stewards did not see fit to investigate. Both Massa and Hamilton passed the whole thing off as just being a racing incident and were giddy as schoolgirls about the thrill of the fight. No complaints filed either side.

Okay... maybe not giddy as schoolgirls, but they weren't grumpy about the whole thing. And Lewis Hamilton didn't have to use his Platinum Card to get to the Steward's Table this race.
 
I'm actually surprised that there's no investigation into Hamilton's contact with Massa on the last corner. I'm not Hamilton bashing here - but he clearly gained an advantage after contact & Schumacher was unfairly given an 10s penalty for the exact same offense.

They went over this post race. Schumacher was essentially out of control, Massa and Hamilton were not. They were both turning into the corner and came together. Simple as that.

The stewards had no problem with it, neither driver had a problem with it and Domenicali had no problem with it.

There was no problem with the incident.

Its a little disturbing that Horner was effectively suggesting that letting Webber and Vettel race would always lead to crashing. Kind of suggests he can convince himself rather easily to impose team orders in any situation....

That, combined with Horner being a massive hypocrite for being so vehemently against team orders when other teams do them, is my problem with what happened. If team orders are legal then so be it, but it's ridiculous to slate the concept and then give your own orders so blatantly, whilst showing zero confidence that your drivers can't race cleanly.

Hang on, "Deprived a battle"? :lol: Webber disobeyed the orders and tried to fight anyway! No one was deprived this weekend.
Perhaps in future weekends, yes, or perhaps in previous races we have been. But clearly Webber is having none of it.

Did I watch a different race to everyone else? Webber was clearly fighting Vettel all the way to the flag and now people are saying we were deprived a battle and they should be allowed to race? Red Bull were clearly trying to make it otherwise but we did see Webber and Vettel fight...are you people blind or mad?

Webber did appear to back off from around Copse on the last lap - he certainly wasn't as close as he'd been for the previous few laps. Leads me to believe the last transmission between Horner and Webber wasn't the one we heard on TV and there might have been a bit more of an ultimatum. I'd be interested to see the timing from the last few laps to see whether Webber really did back off.

Well according to Webber himself, he didn't obey the order, so we found out what happened anyway.

Which program were you watching? Webber was quoted as saying he had four or five calls to back off and he ignored them. Sounds like disobeying orders to me!
 
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I wonder what would happen if a driver disobeys team orders? Like if Webber won this race then later in the season someone else wins the drivers championship (unlikely) because of it, would he get fired?

From what I saw he really didn't look like he was listening and was going at it as hard as he could!
 

Maybe you should refrain from predicting an Alonso win every single race... then he might win WDC. :D

This has not escaped me. My predictions for Germany is that Alonso will break a drive shaft on the installation lap. :dopey:
 
Can you predict the lottery? I'd love some number choices, and if I win, I'll cut you in.

$20 Dollars. Yes, I know, it's redundant.
 
Isn't it apparent that my race prediction skills are not very good? :)


Here is something that I found mildly interesting.

WDC standings after 9 races 2010:

1. Lewis Hamilton 127
2. Jenson Button 121
3. Sebastian Vettel 115
4. Mark Webber 103
5. Fernando Alonso 98

WDC standings after 9 races 2011:

1. Sebastian Vettel 204
2. Mark Webber 124
3. Fernando Alonso 112
4. Lewis Hamilton 109
5. Jenson Button 109

Alonso actually have more points this season even though the Ferrari has been so uncompetitive. Maybe it hasn't really, it's just that the Red Bull of this years is so much better than last years (well it is, at least from a realiability POV) OTOH Alonso has been better this year, he made a lot of uncharacteristic mistakes in the early part of last season. Anyway, if Ferrari can make a second half of the season similar to last year then we will at least have interesting races even though the championship is already decided.
 
Today, I got involved in a huge arguement which included two moderators.

And here's the issue. We were discussing. You were arguing. It's always verbal combat to you, never a conversation. Anyone who's not with you, 100%, is against you and must be battled.

Notice how few members of staff actually post in the F1 threads? It's not because many of them are American either*, but because they can't be bothered with the hassle of having you - and others - starting up yet another F1 thread rant which will inevitably result in someone having to give out an Infraction, which will inevitably result in a massive, unceasing PM rant about conflict of interest and bias and abusing power because they were wrong. It's simply not worth it - and it makes F1 threads almost exactly as enticing as the GT5 forum is, and we don't like that because we are posting members first (that's why we're here) and staff second. Posting here or in the GT5 forum turns from a ten minute browse of GTPlanet into two hours of moderation.


And, for clarity, the "we" wasn't two moderators - only one of us (me) is actually a member of staff at all, and I'm an administrator.


One of whom revealed that I apparently get reported quite a lot. May I remind you that whilst I may have been reported before, I have had not so much as a warning from a moderator, so I clearly haven't done anything wrong.

That's not entirely true any more.

My post-before-last contained some instructions directed at you and, overall, constituted a warning (lower case) that attitudes in these threads will change. And, let's be clear, had you directed those rhetorically-phrased insults at another member and I'd received the report, we'd currently be having this conversation in private messages titled "You have received an Infraction at GTP Forums". Instead we're having it here.

Attitudes are turning these threads into pitched battles of team/driver fans vs. other team/driver fans, into quasi-racist warzones and into no-go areas for people on this site who just like to talk about the F1 this week - and moderators, who cannot be bothered to waste their time hearing the same complaints in their inboxes.

That's done as of yesterday. Anyone who cannot discuss a topic on GTPlanet without referring to the personal characteristics of people who don't agree with them has no place here.


As a matter of fact, I am considering raising this issue with another moderator, as I don't think it's appropriate for a mod to be washing dirty laundry in public.

You're most welcome to. However there is only one other "moderator" to whom I answer and there is only one person to whom any moderator on GTPlanet needs to justify their actions. That'll be Jordan.

Especially when you consider the fact that I haven't done anything wrong. If I had, then surely one of the mods who read the reports about me would have taken some sort of action.

That's what's happening right now - only it's not limited to just you, rather everyone who behaves in the manner described above.

Incidentally, the reason you may have heard the Maldonado story before is because I posted it in May (and March). It was genuinely related to me by an acquaintance of mine (we both moderate another site) who has some interesting hobbies and motoring connections - we can also count a Renault F1 engineer amongst our mutual acquaintances - just as I said it was.


*Satire
 
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Shame we didn't have a thread like this during the valencia gp, it would have gone a lot faster and been more enjoyable (not sure enjoyable is the correct term, but it would be said while putting it in ditto's, a bit like 'enjoyable' followed by a winky thing, like this :sly:).

Anyway, good race, lots of action and the best driver/team combo won on the day. Which is always happens. Whether its Vettel, Alonso , Hamilton etc.
 
Great race, like the new layout of Silverstone, I think the placement of the start/finish straight has helped create a great final section for a last lap battle, as shown in the Massa/Hamilton battle.

Great to see Webber not giving a damn either. :lol: Hilarious to see that coming from Red Bull. He's probably going to get the boot at the end of the season anyways, might as well do it in style.

Looking forward to the races ahead. 👍
 
Drinks are sold on spur of the moment basis (or addiction), this will happen from immediate consequences of a real time event or from short term memory. You don't buy a drink based on remembering who won a championship a year or 2 years ago. It's more likely because you have recently watched a race and perhaps later or the next day discuss it in a pub or something, and you might get a red bull, or you might get one at lunch time or something. Not related to championships. It's about what stays in the brain for what reason, but I accept that it is short term brain activity. But the "coolness" and "style" of the product does become embedded long term into the brain, perhaps even more so than championship status.

I remember well the 7up livery of the F1 cars when I was a younger. I didn't know much about F1, or maybe even understand how a championship even works, but the colours were cool, and I new what 7up was, I think it made me more aware of the drink and I probably enjoyed it more and got an attachment to it in the subconscious. Would I be right in thinking the 7up cars were not championship leaders or winners?
7upJordan1.jpg

191.jpg

A reminder for me. It kind of shows that for a retail company, it' not all about winning, in this case it was just about their colours and logo that appealed, they didn't even have an ethos like Red Bull racing.

I have never bought anything because I saw it on an F1 car or involved with F1. I have never bought anything immediately through seeing an advert or sponsorship.
I have, however, recognised and sometimes bought certain brands because I recognise them, either conciously or not from F1 or otherwise. Thats of course if I already needed/wanted whatever product they sell. I never took up smoking just because of Rothmans, B&H, Marlboro, West or whoever, but as you can see, I recognise and know all of the brands. Perhaps if I ever did take up smoking, I would try one of those brands because I already know of them.
Maybe I will try new products because of F1 sponsorship because I don't know any better but otherwise I won't buy an inferior product. I will still try and get the best possible deal for me. So it really makes no difference if these brands are involved in "cool battles", but it does make a difference if they win championships and races because I'm much more likely to remember the brand name.

The key point in this quote is "it made me more aware". Advertising, branding, sponsorship...is not about immediate sales. Its about creating "brand awareness". First of all, Red Bull can pump out thousands of various adverts with the tagline "F1 World Champions" which certanly sounds more special. Secondly, all the major news papers and press generally report who wins the title and who wins the races. Constantly being told Red Bull have won another race quite obviously makes people remember the brand name, even if they don't know what Red Bull is.

A great overtake or battle at a Grand Prix certainly does go down in history as quite memorable, however, there is a risk it wouldn't. If they let them race and they crashed or Webber got past easily without much of a battle, they've potentially lost the championship (I'm not saying the team orders were correct before anyone jumps on me) and not gained any bonus publicity from a "cool battle". Also it would only ever be mentioned as an aside to whoever won the race by the press. It would never be mentioned much again except by F1 fans.

You were (and other people) asking why Red Bull felt they needed to secure the championship as opposed to the possible publicity of a "cool battle". The answer is very simple, winning the championship is 100% assured publicity and brand exposure. Letting two drivers have at it is not 100% assured publicity and brand exposure.
 
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I take on board that point of view, but my other point stands, a most important thing is the colour/logo of the car and if it represents a product that is already known in the marketplace.
7up got etched into my brain but they didn't win any championships. Could be down to age and profile of viewer also.
If Ferrari had been sponsored by coca-cola in big letters for a long time it might have had a big effect on revenue, even in a time of poor results. But then if you were used to seeing Ferrari in red before it would be less of an impact and the effect not so great.
Advertising is about impact that might not always be about winning. Unusual changes can work, like the tie in with Star Wars in the pit lane, this would have instantly created a strong attachment to a lot of young boys watching, and it might make them like the team more than before, whether or not they won or lost.
 
Of course its not just about winning otherwise why would anyone sponsor Virgin or even Force India and Sauber?!
But winning is a much more valuable piece of brand awareness than a "cool battle" and especially as in this scenario we are referring to, one option is a higher risk than the other.

I don't really see what your new point has to do with the original point you were making. You asked why Red Bull did not want the "cool battle" exposure, the answer is that they would like to win the championship because it gives them much better exposure, because they are also a team, not just a sponsor and because the risk of letting their drivers battle is that they don't gain any publicity at all from it (though its not really a consideration for Horner, it was entirely because he thought Webber would crash into Vettel).

Also, the biggest audience that an F1 sponsor would like to achieve is those that don't watch F1 much or only casually. For this audience, winning the championship is pretty much the only way to get your name out. The average person on the street probably will have heard of Vettel and Red Bull...they probably won't know who Adrian Sutil is or that Kingfisher sponsors an F1 team.
 
If Kingfisher was bright pink metallic all over the car. It would be the most recognised current sponsor in F1.
Or no?
There needs to be a woman in F1, to have a new looking car, with sponsors for nail varnish and underwear.
 
Well, Sauber and Williams have to "entertain" a raft of sponsors, so the overall color scheme has to be somewhat muted so see each one of them. If they all had their ways with corporate branding policies around the entire car, it would be a mess, I presume.

Did anyone else think the new pit lane is just a little too narrow? All this money spent on something with a quasi-Frank Gehery roof and a canyon at the end of the strip of boxes...seems a little absurd.

As one of lone American-F1-&-moderators here, the battles over the trivial and mundane in this forum is boring. Why is that?
 
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The pit lane seems to be a huge blunder of this new layout. Its too narrow, like you said, its sunken down at the end so that the people watching cant see what is going on in the pitlane, its shorter than the actual track and the commentators pointed out various other problems to do with setting up the stands on the pit wall and retrieving broken down cars from the grid.

Did anyone watch any of the support races?
 
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