Aggressive driving in Sport Mode.

[_ApexPredator]

I'll do more pictures, in crayon, just for you next time then.

So long as there's some substantive point to follow then I look forward to it, in the mean time I've done one for you, just for that comment

No, I'm not comparing myself to Ricciardo, but the principle of the manoeuvre is exactly the same no matter who is driving.

Well, you sort of were, and the principle actually isn't the same there anyway as T1 at Monza is a chicane, so the line(s) of Kimi & DRic you’re comparing in that overtake aren’t really applicable to your own example at Lagos – which wasn’t too bad btw - I can get into that a little more too if you’d like.

You’ll notice in the BTCC example, Tim Harvey even says in commentary: “Look, he stops the car on the apex, he didn’t overshoot the corner…” and that’s the crucial difference between Cook’s move and yours (well that and the weather, and the race licenses…); you don’t stop on the apex, and it looks like you would have overshot the corner had contact not been made.


It's hard to say but it doesn't look like you'd make that green line without the contact; you're still braking beyond the apex and look at the angle of your car. The purple is where it looks (and sounds) like you'd be understeering off towards.

The GT is still trying to make the apex but it doesn’t look like he turns in on you, you would have been on the inside kerb, and he would be closing you down forcing you off on the inside were that the case, you just forced your way through and he should have seen it coming and adjusted his line.

It’s not that bad a move, I think a few guys have already said that on the last lap they can see it fly.
It definitely is pretty aggressive though which is the only reason I was wondering what point you were making with it?
I know what a forum is.

And yes that move by DRic was very aggressive – it’s great watching aggressive racing when it’s done by the pros and there is a lot on the line – tell me again how that’s comparable to what you’re posting though?

 

[Sven Jurgens]

@ApexPredator is already adressing your other comments yet I'll add to this remark

Thats odd. Similar to what I've just mentioned, there has been plenty of times, when I've been inches off someones bumper, and they've unexpectedly lifted slightly for whatever reason and we've made contact: No penalty or SR drop. There's also been plenty of times when I've got someone on the undercut or been a bit slow out of a corner and ended up "trading paint" (with no malicious pushing or shoving, but still contact). Again, no penalty or SR drop. So obviously some contact is allowed which puts a rather large gaping hole in your no contact racing simulator theory.

Again see the etiquette videos. Penalties were super sensitive at some point so any contact resulted in 5 to 10 sec penalties. People kept complaining, sometimes right sometimes wrong. The point being, we're not racing in real time. There is (a lot of) lag involved. 160 ms lag is not uncommon and the game needs to forward predict about 10 frames to project cars in the spot it thinks they currently are. So yes, if you drive aggressively close on someone's bumper, there will be contact as your braking will arrive late on their console and theirs on yours. Which means you are a bit too far forward on their console until it corrects for your input and they suddenly slow more than expected when it corrects on your and their brake lights turn on late.

It's irresponsible to drive on someone's bumper in this online environment that spans 2 continents per region with vastly different internet services. Real life doesn't have to deal with that, nor does real life have to deal with vast differences in experience, limited situational awareness, ping pong physics, display lag next to input lag. Plus real life needs to put on a show for the spectators. Of course aggressive moves are applauded there and the audience loves nothing better than it resulting in someone crashing.

I haven't raced that much since the most recent changes, however before you still lost SR on almost any contact, the game simply did not tell you and you won't notice until you use up your 'budget' for a blue rating. I did get an SR Down arrow twice in my last 10 races since the update, from someone bump passing me. It didn't show that before. However not enough for a red rating or penalty.

Anyway I see you are on average an SR.B driver. Your argument that it's not a no contact racing simulator is rather flawed as you can't maintain SR.S with this driving style. Which gives me comfort the system is still working and this style of driving stays in SR.B. In SR.S I see people backing out for a faster exit all the the time. It works much better, much safer. It's a shame, I love the thrill of racing side by side, halfway over mount panorama 2 wide is pretty awesome. Of course that only works with another experienced drive you have raced before so you know their capabilities and preferred lines.

 

[dabz343]

The only real difference between the Ricciardo move and my move (beyond one going into a right>left chicane and the other going into a 90° left-hander) is the person Ricciardo was passing had the situational awareness and skill not to make contact

I agree with some of your comments but if the quote above represents the core of your thoughts, then some clarity is needed.

You are right. IRL, there are amazing moves from amazing drivers that late brake. But directly translating them to GTS may not be wise. Here's why. Situational awareness and the talent to improvise are indeed critical skills in motorsports, but real world environments offer far more stimuli than sim and that's why you have to be careful making assertions about what is fair. Here are two images from your posts that hopefully demonstrate why racecraft in sims should be less aggressive.

Look at the overlap between these aggressive drivers before the turn in. They saw each other entering the braking phase and have aggressively taken positions for a fight. Their situational awareness is commanding.

Look at your overlap before the turn in. Looks familiar to the F1 boys, but wait, there is a huge difference. In GTS, there is NO peripheral vision! In some views, not even a mirror. While you have full vision/awareness of other drivers in front of you, the drivers ahead are severely handicapped with visibility of what going on behind. I suppose checking the delta, radar, just before engaging the brakes can be done, but honestly, that's asking a lot as most will be focused on maintaing speed.

So the ability to gain adequate situational awareness is limited in GTS. This is why, late moves under braking causes so much carnage.

Aggression can be a friend or a foe. I say expand your horizons and give what doesn't come naturally a try,...then decide.

 

[kilesa4568]

@DJShadesUK

You gambled and it paid off. Reward overruled risk in your example and the point of the thread is eliminating as much of the risk as you can for the reward.

Like the old racing adage; 'to finish first, you first need to finish.' That one works much better than Senna's, 'if you're not going for a gap, you're not a racing driver' in sport mode. Gaps significantly vary in size between people in sport mode.

I wondered if being more aggressive in sport mode would help out and got a clear picture it didn't when I tried it. It might work sometimes (like your example) but you're just missing falling on your sword on those occasions. The peaks and troughs in your stats shows it usually doesn't work for you though.

I get why people race like that. It's edgy and exciting, but man, it's inconsistent from all the incidents. I'll stick with being the tortoise.

 

[DJShadesUK]

Okay, to clear a few things up...

the principle actually isn't the same there anyway as T1 at Monza is a chicane so the line(s) of Kimi & DRic you’re comparing in that overtake aren’t really applicable to your own example at Lagos – which wasn’t too bad btw - I can get into that a little more too if you’d like.

There is a reason I've said (or at least I'm sure I've said? I think?) the "first part of the chicane" at Monza, meaning the right-hander section. That section, in isolation, is quite similar to the last corner of Interlagos (almost a mirror image, but with slightly different corner radius).

While I'm not suggesting, for one second, that, using optimal racing lines, they can be taken similarly (because obviously at Monza the second half of the chicane has to be considered) but its interesting to note that under late brake manoeuvres, and depending on how defensive the person being challenged is, they do actually become oddly similar (bar the speed difference of course).

To illustrate my point here is a top-down approximation of me Vs the GT (left) and DR Vs KR (right - into the first part of the chicane only). Notice the very shallow entry angles and resulting extremely wide exit angles; different corner radii but very similar lines from me and DR.

So lets look at where I was in relation to the GT at the point of their extra turn in:

EDIT: This is supposed to by an animated GIF. I don't know why animated GIF is not being an animated GIF?!

Frame 1: Their front wheel is level with my rear wheel. I can easily be seen from their cockpit and they could have chosen to shadow my line.
Frame 2: Their front bumper is now behind my rear wheel (this is just before contact), Evidently they decided turning in further was the right thing to do.

At frame 1 what the GT should have done, or at least, if I was in the GT, what I would have done, accompanied by a little "Where the 🤬 did you come from you cheeky monkey?" (actually I would know exactly where he come from as I pay attention to my mirrors)) is this; opened up his steering slightly and shadowed my line:

You’ll notice in the BTCC example, Tim Harvey even says in commentary: “Look, he stops the car on the apex, he didn’t overshoot the corner…” and that’s the crucial difference between Cook’s move and yours (well that and the weather, and the race licenses…); you don’t stop on the apex, and it looks like you would have overshot the corner had contact not been made.

To be fair I didn't, and wasn't, comparing Cooks move to mine. That was just a general illustration to highlight the fallacy that some people think that just because they've decided on a course that they never have to yield if someone sends it up the inside of them.

It's hard to say but it doesn't look like you'd make that green line without the contact; you're still braking beyond the apex and look at the angle of your car. The purple is where it looks (and sounds) like you'd be understeering off towards.

You're right, I didn't make the green line... I was actually, believe it or not, tighter than the green line. (the green line was just a silly example of the line I would have taken if I really wanted to be an arsehole). I'm watching the replay as I type this and the contact has a negligible effect on my speed/de-acceleration; even without the contact, I can categorically state that I still would have comfortably made the corner without straying beyond the exit curbs. In fact, if anything, given that the GT hit me behind my rear wheel it actually hampered my turn by momentarily turning me back towards the right... and yet I still made the corner.

The GT is still trying to make the apex but it doesn’t look like he turns in on you, you would have been on the inside kerb, and he would be closing you down forcing you off on the inside were that the case, you just forced your way through and he should have seen it coming and adjusted his line.

I'm getting the distinct impression that you haven't scrolled/paged back and seen the replay I posted (not that I blame you, this thread has turned into bit of a slog, to put it politely . Its here anyway).

It definitely is pretty aggressive though which is the only reason I was wondering what point you were making with it?

You'll have no disagreement from me about that. But for me unless you're doing an endurance race or at the arse end of a championship nursing a points lead you're not really racing if you're not being aggressive.

The point being, we're not racing in real time. There is (a lot of) lag involved. 160 ms lag is not uncommon and the game needs to forward predict about 10 frames to project cars in the spot it thinks they currently are. So yes, if you drive aggressively close on someone's bumper, there will be contact as your braking will arrive late on their console and theirs on yours. Which means you are a bit too far forward on their console until it corrects for your input and they suddenly slow more than expected when it corrects on your and their brake lights turn on late.

I guess I'm lucky then that I've never had any real lag problems (I'm on a 100mb fibre connection with really low pings). I've spent lap after lap after lap sitting on bumpers, darting about in their mirrors, daring them to make a mistake, daring them to outbreak themselves. The only time there is contact is if someone loses it in front of them or if they put a wheel on the grass and momentarily lift, something like that. Even then, 99.99 times out of 100 it results in a barely audible bump and nothing in terms of unsettling their car.

It's irresponsible to drive on someone's bumper in this online environment

Yeah, because they may end having to pay millions of dollars to repair their PS4, then ship it to the other side of the world and wait two weeks before they can next race on it next.

Anyway I see you are on average an SR.B driver. Your argument that it's not a no contact racing simulator is rather flawed as you can't maintain SR.S with this driving style. Which gives me comfort the system is still working and this style of driving stays in SR.B.

See my reply to Kilesa's following post...

The peaks and troughs in your stats shows it usually doesn't work for you though

The peaks and troughs in my stats are - and this is absolutely no word of a lie - nothing to do with me. For some reason, only known to the racings "gods", every single time I reach DR/A or SR/S I end up getting smashed about by Spaniards or Italians. Not Germans. Not the French. Not the Swiss, Not Poles. Or anyone from any other nation in the EMEA region. Just Spaniards and Italians. I learnt, a while ago, to give them a wide berth and not be my usual exuberant self around them, but it makes no difference. I seem to attract them like flies around 🤬. Sometimes, even though I'm a 40 year old guy, I genuinely feel like crying, after slogging away getting my ratings up with some good races, only to find myself with 🤬 Spaniards or Italians behind me on the grid. I know whats coming. In the first corner. Every god-damn-🤬 time. No matter what I do. And I always end up getting the penalty and SR drop in those situations for some 🤬 reason. Thats why you see the big drops (even resets) in my ratings; some Spaniard or Italian will hit me a few times, managing to drop my SR from S to B, and the red mist well and truly decends. From that point on I just spend the rest of the race :censored:ing with them (to the further detriment of my own DR/SR). I know I shouldn't but sometimes there is no other way to relieve the blood boiling incandescent rage they induce.

Hopefully you can tell I'm not making that up by how many times I've 🤬 in that one paragraph!

 

[rono_thomas]

The peaks and troughs in my stats are - and this is absolutely no word of a lie - nothing to do with me.

Until this attitude is changed, nothing you say can be taken seriously.

Its highly possible to advance your SR and DR.

Thats mine.

 

[kilesa4568]

The peaks and troughs in my stats are - and this is absolutely no word of a lie - nothing to do with me.

the red mist well and truly decends. From that point on I just spend the rest of the race :censored:ing with them (to the further detriment of my own DR/SR). I know I shouldn't but sometimes there is no other way to relieve the blood boiling incandescent rage they induce.

Did you forget what you wrote at the start of the paragraph when you ended it?

Battling with a driver costs time. Battling hard costs more time. Battling a driver who's annoyed you for whatever reason, costs way more time. You'll probably set up a hot headed rivalry if you go for revenge too.

Look at the big picture and prioritise your best race pace instead?

 

[Sven Jurgens]

I guess I'm lucky then that I've never had any real lag problems (I'm on a 100mb fibre connection with really low pings). I've spent lap after lap after lap sitting on bumpers, darting about in their mirrors, daring them to make a mistake, daring them to outbreak themselves. The only time there is contact is if someone loses it in front of them or if they put a wheel on the grass and momentarily lift, something like that. Even then, 99.99 times out of 100 it results in a barely audible bump and nothing in terms of unsettling their car.

Yeah, because they may end having to pay millions of dollars to repair their PS4, then ship it to the other side of the world and wait two weeks before they can next race on it next.

See my reply to Kilesa's following post...

The peaks and troughs in my stats are - and this is absolutely no word of a lie - nothing to do with me. For some reason, only known to the racings "gods", every single time I reach DR/A or SR/S I end up getting smashed about by Spaniards or Italians. Not Germans. Not the French. Not the Swiss, Not Poles. Or anyone from any other nation in the EMEA region. Just Spaniards and Italians. I learnt, a while ago, to give them a wide berth and not be my usual exuberant self around them, but it makes no difference. I seem to attract them like flies around 🤬. Sometimes, even though I'm a 40 year old guy, I genuinely feel like crying, after slogging away getting my ratings up with some good races, only to find myself with 🤬 Spaniards or Italians behind me on the grid. I know whats coming. In the first corner. Every god-damn-🤬 time. No matter what I do. And I always end up getting the penalty and SR drop in those situations for some 🤬 reason. Thats why you see the big drops (even resets) in my ratings; some Spaniard or Italian will hit me a few times, managing to drop my SR from S to B, and the red mist well and truly decends. From that point on I just spend the rest of the race :censored:ing with them (to the further detriment of my own DR/SR). I know I shouldn't but sometimes there is no other way to relieve the blood boiling incandescent rage they induce.

Hopefully you can tell I'm not making that up by how many times I've 🤬 in that one paragraph!

Your internet is only half of the equation. You are probably oblivious to the effect you have on other drivers. Your car telemetry arrives late on their side, it doesn't matter you have 100 MB fiber. Ping times from the UK to Italy are simply limited by the laws of physics. That means your car is likely pushing them on their side when you drive right on their bumper. It will never show on your side as to you it simply appears they are braking a little later as the little bumps are not shown to you, as they do not happen on your side. That's what I mean by being irresponsible or rather inconsiderate.

You blame Spaniards and Italians, here we blame South Americans. What do they have in common, they are geographically far away. Your ping time only tells you you are close to the server. That doesn't matter one bit as collisions are solely handled on the console. If your car data takes 10 ms to reach the server in the UK, then 60ms to get to the other person, same result. They most likely think the same of you, and red mist never helps. South Americans call Canadians dirty, shocker the average ping time from Toronto to Argentina is 165 ms, server to server. That doesn't include mine or their ISP to reach our homes. That's an extreme example, yet 33 ms between London and Rome, plus your and their ping time to the server, add render and display lag, it's far from real time. Little bumps pushing people around happen all the time, hence the endless "penalty system still sucks" thread with why did I get 10 sec penalty for nothing until PD turned the penalties way down.

Yet if you keep your distance, avoid contact, you can have awesome races with anyone and stick to SR.S no problem. The only challenge is people driving recklessly and spinning out or hitting a wall right in front of you. The rest can all be avoided. T1 is always difficult on some tracks, yet you can brake early off the line and let the bombs take out the people in front of you instead. It works wonders!

As for you comparison, different corner radii, different speeds, different braking zone lengths, different experience level, completely the same!

 

[rono_thomas]

Even Max waits.

 

[DJShadesUK]

Did you forget what you wrote at the start of the paragraph when you ended it?

Yeah, sort of . I (think? hope?) you know what I meant though? If it wasn't for 🤬 Spaniards and Italians (and for reasons I am yet to fathom it really is just them) constantly battering my SR in first place, and 🤬 me off far beyond what I thought was humanly possible, then my average SR would be higher. I truly despair having them behind me on the grid. If I don't get a good jump on them, in the first 3 quarters of a lap, breaking their ability to slipstream me, I know, no matter what I do, I'm not leaving that race without a red letter waiting for me. Every. Single. 🤬. Time.

Every once in a while there will be a clown from some other nation but oddly they always seem to mess with other people! Its utterly, utterly, bizarre!

Battling with a driver costs time. Battling hard costs more time.

If I wanted to drive round and round in circles with no risk, just waiting for others to make massive mistakes to make up places, I'd do that. I like battling hard. I like filling mirrors. I like making those I'm following second guess themselves. Am I going to go for the undercut? Am I going for a late braking block pass? Am I baiting them into unnecessarily defending and compromising their own lines? If I'm not first on the grid at the start of the race I'm absolutely going for 1st by the end of the race.

Battling a driver who's annoyed you for whatever reason, costs way more time.

Please, if feels like you're trying to minimise this, like I'm some kind of petty arsehole exacting revenge upon people who have merely "annoyed" me. Taps happen. Bumps happen. Rubbing happens, A little miscalculation of how much room I'm being left with at the edge of a track happens (especially if someone is using bumper or cockpit view). Racing happens. I accept that. I'm not perfect, I make silly mistakes too (and I'm the first to apologise if it happens). It happens to all of us.

The people who manage to turn me into a flaming ball of rage are those that blatantly don't bother braking behind you going into corners and send you off the track like supercharged-nitro-v-tec-just-kicked-in-yo! Those that can't accept you managing to hang side-by-side round the outside of a corner and will take a few stabs at punting you out before you even exit the corner (never mind leave you room on exit). Those that take offence to defensive manoeuvres and will give 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 or more hits to get that exact bit of track they want. Those that specifically aim for the side of your car going into a corner using you as a brake/corner assist. Those that blatantly try to PIT manoeuvre you on a straight if you manage to drag past them (but, having thought about that last one, I've just realised it hasn't happened for a while. Perhaps its just no longer what the cool scumbags do any more? )

And I generally don't go on a kill mission unless I've raced the guy/girl a few times and they've proven themselves to be complete dirtbags (by repeatedly being a scumbag to me, or doing similar stuff to other people and me). I'm a big believer in giving the benefit of the doubt, but with some people it isn't long before you get a pretty good sense that they're doing things maliciously.

Yes, yes, yes. I know, I know, I know. I should resist the temptation to go postal on a scumbag, and I'm not proud of it, but sometimes its the only thing that will quench that supernova level rage.

Your internet is only half of the equation. You are probably oblivious to the effect you have on other drivers. Your car telemetry arrives late on their side, it doesn't matter you have 100 MB fiber. Ping times from the UK to Italy are simply limited by the laws of physics. That means your car is likely pushing them on their side when you drive right on their bumper.

You do realise when I say right on their bumper I'm not talking about inches away or constantly rubbing on their rear end (Boom! Phrasing!), right?

It will never show on your side as to you it simply appears they are braking a little later as the little bumps are not shown to you, as they do not happen on your side. That's what I mean by being irresponsible or rather inconsiderate.

In my experience I've found that that people in Sport Mode have never been backwards about coming forwards about just about any tiny contact that they feel is a world-ending personal slight. Having said that not once have I never had anyone complain about being shadowed too closely and being constantly (or even infrequently) bumped, but I have had plenty of complements and thanks for awesome close races.

You blame Spaniards and Italians, here we blame South Americans.

Funny you should say that. I don't go in open lobbies often any more but when I did frequent them I'd often back out of a room if there were Brazilians or Argentinians in there. Conversely some of the hardest, closest, cleanest racing I've ever had has been with Americans and Canadians. In fact, more often than not I'd rather race with Americans and Canadians than my fellow Brits, whom I (now realise naively) expected to have a British sense of fair play.

What do they have in common, they are geographically far away. [...] 33 ms between London and Rome, plus your and their ping time to the server, add render and display lag, it's far from real time.

I feel you are somewhat over emphasising the influence of lag. Although it does indeed play a part it doesn't explain why I can have far cleaner, closer, and harder racing with Americans and Canadians 3,000 to 5,000 miles away than I do with Spaniards and Italians 1,000 to 1,700 miles away.

Yet if you keep your distance, avoid contact

Yay for essentially, time trialling *yawn*

The only challenge is people driving recklessly and spinning out or hitting a wall right in front of you.

You're not being serious? One thing I think GTS does too enthusiastically, at least in Sport Mode, is ghosting (its a minor bug-bear of mine; real cars don't ghost. But thats a rant for another day! ). Driving through a ghost is hardly a challenge. Although I generally tend to avoid driving through ghosts thanks to a few inopportune un-ghostings right in front of me

As for you comparison, different corner radii, different speeds, different braking zone lengths, different experience level, completely the same!

Fairly certain I acknowledged most of that, but a shallow entry and wide exit into a 90° corner results in the pretty much the same (or very, very similar) line no matter the corner radii (within reason) its just really the speeds that vary. Why do you think I made the image comparing my line with Ricciardios? Despite one being 90° left and the other being 90° right and the speeds being different, all of which I acknowledged, it was to visualise the striking similarity of the lines.

Even Max waits.

So would I if 3 or 4 car lengths behind, in cars that are notoriously unstable in dirty air, on such a short section between two corners.

 

[rono_thomas]

So would I if 3 or 4 car lengths behind, in cars that are notoriously unstable in dirty air, on such a short section between two corners.

Max waits because Max realises in terms of total race time its quicker. Obviously the point was lost.

 

[kilesa4568]

@DJShadesUK

Totally up to you how you race. I just prefer keeping the emotions in check and taking my time on when to pass. Predictable and safe with my cocoa and slippers.

 

[Wannablackbee]

@kilesa4568 I have read your original post since last Tuesday and I feel exactly the same as you say. I am asking myself questions about making a difference being a little bit more agressive. I think us kind of drivers should be a bit (tad) more agressive and get out of our comfort zone. All of this by keeping our driver persona that respects the other drivers. Only a bit more and I think that we will get results. Going to extreme will not help.

I have a question left. What do you think of people flashing their headlights to break your concentration and consistency? Do you file it in an agressive kind of track behavior? I must admit I get bothered by that phenomenon but I try not to. Tonight, I just lost a position for that and I did from time to time since gtsport came out. Is flashing the lights a tactic to win a position in an agressive manner? It is a question I am asking. Maybe it has been discussed before here but I do not recall.

 

[kilesa4568]

I have read your original post since last Tuesday and I feel exactly the same as you say. I am asking myself questions about making a difference being a little bit more agressive. I think us kind of drivers should be a bit (tad) more agressive and get out of our comfort zone. All of this by keeping our driver persona that respects the other drivers. Only a bit more and I think that we will get results. Going to extreme will not help.

I intend to get a little more aggressive if I can find more consistency and speed as I'll be meeting a higher rank of driver. Hopefully they're more aware, safer to go wheel to wheel with and a bit more race craft savvy. Hopefully...

I have a question left. What do you think of people flashing their headlights to break your concentration and consistency? Do you file it in an agressive kind of track behavior? I must admit I get bothered by that phenomenon but I try not to. Tonight, I just lost a position for that and I did from time to time since gtsport came out. Is flashing the lights a tactic to win a position in an agressive manner? It is a question I am asking. Maybe it has been discussed before here but I do not recall.

It's just gamesmanship if the light flashes are deliberate or they're accidental L3 presses on a DS4 with flash lights still bound to it.

I notice it but it's usually just harmless gamesmanship.

I know full well they're there, don't need reminding and ignore them.

 

[Groundfish]

I am so glad I to be sr S. My one foray down to b was enough for me to realize one position isn’t worth the pain of climbing my way back to sr s.

 

[_ApexPredator]

To be fair I didn't, and wasn't, comparing Cooks move to mine. That was just a general illustration to highlight the fallacy that some people think that just because they've decided on a course that they never have to yield if someone sends it up the inside of them.

Fair enough. That would also fall under the category of aggressive driving in my book - not leaving enough racing room or squeezing - I can't stand it also.

People always online seem to be saying on the inside you late brake. For me I do the opposite. When I have overlap on the inside I brake earlier so that I am not threshold braking out of control cutting a guy off. In long hard brake zones I release the brake to get position a little and establish my right to the inside.

<3

I'm getting the distinct impression that you haven't scrolled/paged back and seen the replay I posted (not that I blame you, this thread has turned into bit of a slog, to put it politely . Its here anyway).

I actually did. TBH I'm getting the distinct impression that you're not totally sure where the apex of that corner at Lagos is - you missed it by a mile man! You made the corner yeah, which is why I've said on the last lap or something fair enough, but it's 100% an aggressive barge-pass and the replay speaks for itself really.

There is a reason I've said (or at least I'm sure I've said? I think?) the "first part of the chicane" at Monza, meaning the right-hander section. That section, in isolation, is quite similar to the last corner of Interlagos (almost a mirror image, but with slightly different corner radius).

It's not driven in isolation though is it ...

While I'm not suggesting, for one second, that, using optimal racing lines, they can be taken similarly (because obviously at Monza the second half of the chicane has to be considered) but its interesting to note that under late brake manoeuvres, and depending on how defensive the person being challenged is, they do actually become oddly similar (bar the speed difference of course).

They're not similar. They're as similar as a banana to a half-moon.

To illustrate my point here is a top-down approximation of me Vs the GT (left) and DR Vs KR (right - into the first part of the chicane only). Notice the very shallow entry angles and resulting extremely wide exit angles; different corner radii but very similar lines from me and DR.

I thought you weren't comparing yourself to Ricciardo?
Anyway I almost started to address why your lines aren't comparable again but I really don't think it can be put any clearer than the banana/moon picture tbh.

I take your point that you enjoy aggressive racing and for you that's what racing is all about, I understand that completely; I'm kind of the same tbh!
I just don't agree that your example at Lagos is an illustration of the car on the outside turning in and not leaving enough racing room for a car on his inside; it just looks like a totally standard aggro-lunge on a corner where most go in far too hot and lose drive up the hill where you both would have perhaps been better off (in terms of total race time - what's actually important in a race) leaving enough room for one another and making the apex (not just the corner).

Not trying to have an argument here.

 

[Alpha Cipher]

Fair enough. That would also fall under the category of aggressive driving in my book - not leaving enough racing room or squeezing - I can't stand it also.

<3

I actually did. TBH I'm getting the distinct impression that you're not totally sure where the apex of that corner at Lagos is - you missed it by a mile man! You made the corner yeah, which is why I've said on the last lap or something fair enough, but it's 100% an aggressive barge-pass and the replay speaks for itself really.

It's not driven in isolation though is it ...

They're not similar. They're as similar as a banana to a half-moon.




I thought you weren't comparing yourself to Ricciardo?
Anyway I almost started to address why your lines aren't comparable again but I really don't think it can be put any clearer than the banana/moon picture tbh.

I take your point that you enjoy aggressive racing and for you that's what racing is all about, I understand that completely; I'm kind of the same tbh!
I just don't agree that your example at Lagos is an illustration of the car on the outside turning in and not leaving enough racing room for a car on his inside; it just looks like a totally standard aggro-lunge on a corner where most go in far too hot and lose drive up the hill where you both would have perhaps been better off (in terms of total race time - what's actually important in a race) leaving enough room for one another and making the apex (not just the corner).

Not trying to have an argument here.

At this point I'm just glad that this type of driving stays on SR B

 

[WaikeCU]

Depends really. If I'm really that much faster than him and he's the leader, then I'll just stick behind him and let him tow me around lap for lap. Throw in a few dummy moves here and there, these are things that add pressure and he'll crack eventually. If he doesn't, then overtake him when least expected. If stay behind him lap for lap, then I'll become unpredictable where I will eventually overtake him.

If I know that cars are closing in and catching up and are faster than me, I try and not waste time. Sometimes contact will be inevitable with these kind of drivers

Other than that I live to fight another day if it doesn't work out.

I've recently had an exciting race at the Red Bull Ring and it shows exactly what I'm trying to say here. I was closing in on the leader and applying the pressure. The footage starts at the penultimate lap where I felt he's starting to feel the pressure, so I sometimes drive on the inside line on the run towards the next turn, just to make him think I'm going for the overtake on the inside, before moving back on the ideal line to have the perfect entry and exit.

So he fell for it and decided to protect the inside. So I gain in on him even more. I continued selling dummies on each turn and then I was really was on his rear bumper on the last lap. Right where I wanted him to be. I kinda knew already where I wanted to get by him and that was on the run towards turn 3 or into turn 3. Selling a dummy and getting a good exit out of turn 2 will make me get by him easily, but I couldn't because he placed his car well enough in front of me so I couldn't fully accelerate out of turn 2. So it had to be turn 3. One last dummy dive on the inside, before (again) moving back on the ideal line before braking. The pressure just got to him and he eventually lost out simply because he couldn't get clean drives out of turns and then simply outbrakes himself desperately protecting his lead.

 

[ROCKET JOE]

A bit late to the late-braking discussion, but after all these years there's still a bit of a doubt on my side regarding the line around the apex and the corner exit line after such a manoeuvre. The answer probably is in the posts above and in between the lines already, anyway, I'd like to have your opinions again, guys ( if you're not too tired by now ).

In general, I don't like late-braking for the high risk and the fact that it's really hard to execute in a good way, especially with our different skill levels and the limited spatial view in GT. I even don't like if Danny Ricciardo forces it, because the only reason it works for him is that the other driver ( most of the times I've seen it ) is backing out early being well aware of the overall pace and the risk of damage.
As soon as the late-breaker expects his opponent to stay behind it becomes unfair action to me.
The line Ricciardo takes in the Monza T1 example above ( the wide exit ) is possible because Räikkönen gives in and lets him go. If you've watched the Monza GP yesterday you for sure remember that for a couple of times two guys went two wide through the whole chicane because none of them would back out ( which was great to see btw ).

To say "Notice the very shallow entry angles and resulting extremely wide exit angles" ( cit. @DJShadesUK ) and taking a wide exit as an unavoidable result of a narrow entry is not legit imo. I always thought if you dive to the apex you gotta be slow enough there to be able to basically rotate your car on the inside curb ( like in that BTCC vid somehow ).

So what's your point of view guys :
Unless you haven't really really cleared the other car - what's a clean and fair line around the apex and out of the corner after a late-braking manouevre ?

 

[Alpha Cipher]

So what's your point of view guys :
Unless you haven't really really cleared the other car - what's a clean and fair line around the apex and out of the corner after a late-braking manouevre ?

Always, always always always, even when there's barely any overlap, give space for the opposing car. If you don't want to do it out of respect, at least do it out of distrust and faith that they will probably crash you out if you get too close

 

[dabz343]

I always thought if you dive to the apex you gotta be slow enough there to be able to basically rotate your car on the inside curb ( like in that BTCC vid somehow ).

If you can control your car to maintain side-by-side position without infringing on each other, then each driver is doing their part to have a respectable race.

You only open up on exit when there is a fair opportunity to do so.

 

[Lazybike]

I have a bad feeling about the Weekly A, there's something about Suzuka East that encourages contact!

 

[_ApexPredator]

So what's your point of view guys :
Unless you haven't really really cleared the other car - what's a clean and fair line around the apex and out of the corner after a late-braking manouevre ?

I'm pretty much with you:

... if you dive to the apex you gotta be slow enough there to be able to basically rotate your car on the inside curb ( like in that BTCC vid somehow ).

 

[Winnie847]

Shades' SR really tells the whole story. Looks like he's had several DR resets due to tanking SR. It's currently at 31, but not his fault!

I've had one, but I accept my part in most of those incidents, even if I mostly blame somebody else I always try to acknowledge how I could have prevented it and what could be done differently to avoid it in the future.

 

[kilesa4568]

If you can control your car to maintain side-by-side position without infringing on each other, then each driver is doing their part to have a respectable race.

You only open up on exit when there is a fair opportunity to do so.

That's what I tried the other night. Perfectly fair when you're racing properly with people you trust but even that's too aggressive for sport mode down in DRB. It's like being passed is a personal insult... Late defensive moves (especially in the braking zone) and driving over their limit was the usual reply in 9 out of 10 attempts.

It's a shame sport mode's a hope for the best, prepare for the worst, type of racing. I'll stick with the better safe than sorry until I know how you drive approach. There's not as many surprises.

Another thing I've thought of. When was the last time you saw someone redress a bad pass? Are we supposed to let the penalty system decide with its rubbing is racing type calculations? No penalty=borderline or fair pass? Outside of lobby racing, I can't remember seeing one...

I redress when I make a mistake, as I'm sure most of you do, but should you do it in sport mode? It's probably a dumb question but we're playing a game with a penalty system that's supposed to decide when we've been *baaad. Why do the right thing if game rules say you don't need to? You'd think something like that would be mentioned in the etiquette videos.

*I always grin at how that word from the videos is used. Don't be a naughty child, OK? OK dad.

 

[ROCKET JOE]

... It's probably a dumb question but we're playing a game with a penalty system that's supposed to decide when we've been *baaad. Why do the right thing if game rules say you don't need to? ...

Since the day I started to take this game more serious, I've had my own set of rules ( just like the most of you, I guess ) which was more strict than the native GT one. With all the crappy outcome of the current penalty system I don't see why I should change this ( the proud block-headed incompetitive idiot I am ).
If I think a bit further down the road, I even see PD and GT Sport creating some new and somehow scary kind of racing ... for the next 100 years ! NO NO NO !

 

[kilesa4568]

( the proud block-headed incompetitive idiot I am ).

Same mentality here. I figure redressing gets you an ally for a while and two against one often comes in handy.

Give me one person out of the whole grid to race against, I'm happy. Maybe the 15000ish previous races I've done have left me numb?

If I think a bit further down the road, I even see PD and GT Sport creating some new and somehow scary kind of racing ... for the next 100 years ! NO NO NO !

Death Race. Maybe we'll get pedestrians, pets and politicians to run over for bonus DR points?

 

[rono_thomas]

Interesting topic regarding conceding positions if they were “illegally” gained. In my few sport races (126) I’ve not experienced anyone conceding when I’ve been bashed off, and I’ve not witnessed it happen to others either.

I’ve only had to wait twice to give a place back when I’ve miss-judged extra speed from a tow into turn 1, even so, each time I’m thinking to myself why? Why? Why am I doing this, I guess we can call it good racing etiquette, but within the laws of the game I’m not required to do this, and I guess for this reason expecting it from other sport mode competitors is pointless.

So, yes if I judge I’m at fault for ruining some other’s race I will concede, in the dog eat dog world of sport I think those of us that do, well that makes us mugs.

 

[ROCKET JOE]

... I redress when I make a mistake, ...

I have done and will do so whenever that's appropriate ... of course I will 👍.
In about 300 races I've experienced one driver redressing for a truly minor contact which made us swap position. However, I was so happy having a great race with that guy that I let him pass again for the win right before the line ( and thus tanked my DR and did major damage to my stats ) .

... Death Race. Maybe we'll get pedestrians, pets and politicians to run over for bonus DR points?

Yeah, and if we stop to save a suicide from a St. Croix bridge pillar, we'll have to start from E/B again ...

 

[BallPtPenTheif]

So what's your point of view guys :
Unless you haven't really really cleared the other car - what's a clean and fair line around the apex and out of the corner after a late-braking manouevre ?

Late braking and running side by side, the fair line would be braking so heavily that you stay close to the apex, then a short exit line that leaves space at the outer edge of the track. Those two points of etiquette to avoid contact also diminish the speed of the maneuver which checks and balances the reward of the move.

That check and balance of etiquette is what makes passing on a shared corner such a tactical maneuver since the outside driver still has some adjustments they can make to defend the pass by taking a later apex, cutting the inside car's exit line shorter, and running a faster exit than the inside car.

Without any regard for a collision none of these tactical variables matter anymore and whoever rams their nose to the inside will wedge the outside car off of the line and win the corner. A higher level of driving etiquette will yield a higher level of tactical choices however without any etiquette people are just learning to pass in ways that are not sustainable or realistic, so it's just trash.