Anyone planning to drop GT5?

[Vaxxtx]

@CSLACR

Well obviously, but it's apparent that some of those cars make no adjustments what so ever. And they are slow vehicles aswell. They just continue on there way into the car.

Watch it. I've seen GT5 videos where they make a conscious effort to move out of the way for stopped vehicles while racing.

You guys know thats a game mode right? Kind of like the bowling on the TGTT. There is another one with the cars going the other way as well. They are not suppose to "move".

 

[Samus]

I honestly have no idea why AI quality is judged on their ability to get out of the way of parked cars or cars moving in the wrong direction. I don't give a damn how the AI do in those areas because it's pretty much irrelevent when playing the game properly. The only AI quality I care about is how well they race me, properly.

 

[MoGoSpeed]

You guys know thats a game mode right? Kind of like the bowling on the TGTT. There is another one with the cars going the other way as well. They are not suppose to "move".

I was unaware. What game mode is it? What's he getting for it? All I see is the lap timer moving, and the little "wrong way" sign on the bottom left. Is that part of it?


@Simonk

It's not determining the full spectrum of the AI, but simply showing the consciousness of the AI adjusting to a physical entity in front, and adjusting their line to that. Just an observation.

 

[Vaxxtx]

I was unaware. What game mode is it? What's he getting for it? All I see is the lap timer moving, and the little "wrong way" sign on the bottom left. Is that part of it?


@Simonk

It's not determining the full spectrum of the AI, but simply showing the consciousness of the AI adjusting to a physical entity in front, and adjusting their line to that. Just an observation.

Its part of the rivals mode, where you compete with your a "ghost" of your friends time. While weaving around a constant stream of slow cars.

 

[MoGoSpeed]

^
Gotcha.

I'll continue to reserve judgement till release.

 

[CSLACR]

I honestly have no idea why AI quality is judged on their ability to get out of the way of parked cars or cars moving in the wrong direction. I don't give a damn how the AI do in those areas because it's pretty much irrelevent when playing the game properly. The only AI quality I care about is how well they race me, properly.

This.

I fully understand the intended purpose of parking in front of the AI, however, I disagree with these types of "tests" in any and every case.

Until someone does it in real life, (in a race) we can only speculate what the AI should or shouldn't do to simulate a real driver.
Speculation is something any good test avoids like the plague, so I'll be determining AI quality by how they race me, as always.

 

[MoGoSpeed]

^
I think I just explained the purpose. I don't understand what you're disagreeing with of these "tests".

It's not to replicate the idea of to do it in real life, but more so how AI in a game reacts to a physical object in front, have it be an accident, an early break or parked whatever. Showing that an AI will change it's line according to the circumstance.

 

[CSLACR]

^
I think I just explained the purpose. I don't understand what you're disagreeing with of these "tests".

It's not to replicate the idea of to do it in real life, but more so how AI in a game reacts to a physical object in front, have it be an accident, an early break or parked whatever. Showing that an AI will change it's line according to the circumstance.

They already do in both games though, at least to a point.
"How well should they?" is the question we don't have an answer for, and as long as people are laying "traps" that don't exist IRL to test AI intelligence, these "tests" will have little or no meaning.

If you want to test a racing simulation, you have to race, simple as that.

 

[GTOne2Three]

I think everyone who wants to drop GT5 for Forza4 should atleast wait for Spec2. Just to see what happens. I know it's a month more, but Forza4 isn't going anywhere. It will still be at the store..

 

[Tenacious D]

Strange, Google's cached version of that site never mentions a budget either.

Actually, googling "Forza 4 budget 100 million" (or 120), the only links I see are you saying it... though maybe it's just far, far deeper in the results page, right?

Well, I tried all my "Forza 4 development costs" or "budget" links that were purpled from being clicked on, and the two articles that mentioned the figures weren't among them. I guess they were scrubbed.

One thing that isn't a secret though is that the budget for Forza has always been top secret, which is why I never found one before. However, just about anyone should be able to fathom that the budget for Forza 4 is likely through the roof. They contracted a cinema graphic studio to design the lighting engine for the game, which is yet more cost to the five studios doing content building for T10 amar212 dug up, as well as their own team of over 200 people. And I sincerely doubt that very many people gave a company as rich as MS a discount on anything.

Do the math. There were likely two or three times Polyphony's team size - 150 plus - working on this game, along with the movie graphics bunch. They had to contract time with Pirelli as well as test a few tons of cars. They rebuilt the game engine. They couldn't pay EA enough for the Porsche license this time, so I'm still thinking a budget bigger than GT5's.

Yet again, this isn't the thread to debate (rationally) the merits of FM vs GT; we have a thread for that. Keep it over there.

OH NO! I'll take the nutbars in this section over the you-know-whats in that one.

Anyway, looks like there's really not much to discuss. Most of the people here have resolved at a 3 to 1 margin to at least be playing GT5 as well as "something else." Maybe's bump it up to around 9 to 1.

As for CSLACKR, since he just wants to brush off all my points, I'm going to whittle down his post to this.

What could FM do to not be a copy in your book?

I don't think they could do a darn thing. Forza is already so established that it squashed Project Gotham right off the gaming map. They would have to scrap the series entirely and do something other than the GT format.

And I'll ask you this since you're so good at addressing discussions point to point. Since Gran Turismo is like so many games, which other game besides Forza is a cyclopedia of the automotive world, offering hundreds and hundreds of real world compact cars, sports cars, muscle cars, super cars, and race cars of various performance levels in one game, and pit them against each other on race courses from around the globe as well as fantasy tracks?

 

[CSLACR]

As for CSLACR, since he just wants to brush off all my points, I'm going to whittle down his post to this.

You haven't made an accurate point regarding FM being a "copy", nothing to brush off.

It's actually been sad, you were first in dismissing my points, the first to throw insults, and continue on trying to claim this is what I've been doing?

I don't think they could do a darn thing.

Exactly, because you predetermined this and refuse to question it, let alone read how I destroyed your "list" that so eloquently "proved FM is a copy".

Forza is already so established that it squashed Project Gotham right off the gaming map. They would have to scrap the series entirely and do something other than the GT format.

Why would they scrap the realism portions of their game, which is a simulator?
Oh that's right, you don't believe it's ok for two racing simulators to share realistic aspects.

And I'll ask you this since you're so good at addressing discussions point to point. Since Gran Turismo is like so many games, which other game besides Forza is a cyclopedia of the automotive world, offering hundreds and hundreds of real world compact cars, sports cars, muscle cars, super cars, and race cars of various performance levels in one game, and pit them against each other on race courses from around the globe as well as fantasy tracks?

And we come to the center of the problem.
You believe that if anyone dares make a game with a huge pile of varying cars and tracks in an attempt at a simulator it's automatically a copy of GT.

Guess what? You're wrong.
Of course if you use the term copy so loosely as to determine anything similar in nature, as I said before, then yes. And every game made today, including GT is a copy in one way or another.

 

[MoGoSpeed]

They already do in both games though, at least to a point.
"How well should they?" is the question we don't have an answer for, and as long as people are laying "traps" that don't exist IRL to test AI intelligence, these "tests" will have little or no meaning.

If you want to test a racing simulation, you have to race, simple as that.

I disagree with you, as it provides example of AI conscious in a game, simple as that, regardless of how much to exact racing it imposes. It provides a basis to understand the AI's conscious before adding much more complex variables and situation unto the coding, but still gives an underlying perspective. Again simple as that.

Example:

 

[TB]

Look, another FM vs GT thread, how interesting.

Actually I'm pretty sure this has gone out of the AUP, funny enough no one seems to address the issue:

*You will not post advertisements or solicitations outside of designated areas or without proper authorization.

The thread is about dropping GT5 and the reasons after that, but is not about posting promotional content about FM4, I believe there is a section for that, but is quite funny to see how this kind of thing goes under the radar.

Besides, FM is not the only racing game besides of GT, there is also GTR-2 evolution, Dirt3 and of course Shift 2 and of course the more "hardcore" ones on PC.

But what do I know.

Until somone from T10, Codemasters, SimBim, EA, etc. show up peddling their wares, there's nothing to address. We're just dudes and dudettes discussing games.

 

[CSLACR]

I disagree with you, as it provides example of AI conscious in a game, simple as that, regardless of how much to exact racing it imposes. It provides a basis to understand the AI's conscious before adding much more complex variables and situation unto the coding, but still gives an underlying perspective. Again simple as that.

I'll bite.
How "conscious" should they be?

They should simulate what a race car driver might actually do, yes?

What does a race car driver do when a car drives backwards at them, or parks on their racing line?

BTW, you can't answer the first without having an answer for the third.

Edit: And remember, like I said, both games show visible conscious efforts to avoid these situations. And then we go into detail about "equal" comparisons, etc. Point is they both already do, nothing further to verify.

 

[another_jakhole]

And we come to the center of the problem.
You believe that if anyone dares make a game with a huge pile of varying cars and tracks in an attempt at a simulator it's automatically a copy of GT.

Guess what? You're wrong.
Of course if you use the term copy so loosely as to determine anything similar in nature, as I said before, then yes. And every game made today, including GT is a copy in one way or another.

GT was the first on a game console and no other racer (besides NFS which isn't exclusive to game consoles) has been around longer than GT. Tenacious D is right about the encyclopedia of cars. Nothing matches GT in that area and no one (especially for the first GT) expected a number greater than a "measly" 50 cars.

 

[bass264]

I'm not dropping GT5 until GT6 because of the fun I have when I race with friends and the funny things we talk about over our microphones.

 

[MoGoSpeed]

I'll bite.
How "conscious" should they be?

They should simulate what a race car driver might actually do, yes?

What does a race car driver do when a car drives backwards at them, or parks on their racing line?

BTW, you can't answer the first without having an answer for the third.

They should be as conscious, as anticipation. That's the exact thought in Race Car Drivers mind while racing.


But that adds on to what I then said, the AI would have to calculate anticipation through understanding the multiple variables while within a race of other cars(Speed/turn approach/distance/type of vehicle/power/etc), and that's where we are in the coded world. But showing that the AI does respond in the most primitive of examples does provide potential for what the AI can do as more variable and calculations are brought into the mix.

AT your EDIT: Well that's when I came in, because in that other video a few pages back of FM4... the AI was horrible in responding, but then again that guy said it was part of a game mode. So will have to wait and see till release.

 

[Tenacious D]

Guess what? You're wrong.

Whatever you say, perfesser, though I haven't seen you destroy anything. You sure didn't have an answer to a simpel question, I see. "Oh, they're really not that much alike at all. You're just wrong is all. I say so, and that makes it true." Sure.

Anyhow, amar is pretty impressed with Forza 4, but then he was with Forza 3. It was neat, but I really just enjoyed it for the livery editor - until the file handling became too much of an exercise in frustration to do anything but race. It looks great, but if you need a Fanatec wheel to really enjoy it, I guess I won't be. And I sure as heck won't be dropping GT5 for any serious length of time.

 

[MoGoSpeed]

^ and hopefully this doesn't ruin the driving gameplay. Even with a Fanatic.

 

[CSLACR]

GT was the first on a game console and no other racer (besides NFS which isn't exclusive to game consoles) has been around longer than GT. Tenacious D is right about the encyclopedia of cars. Nothing matches GT in that area and no one (especially for the first GT) expected a number greater than a "measly" 50 cars.

So once again we're dismissing NFS over yet another pathetic reason?
It doesn't count because it's not console specific?

Anyway, what are you trying to say? (I assume that FM4 is proven a copy because it has "lots of cars" and other stuff GT has)
Which as I've shown, are all realism aspects.

I'm not dropping GT5 until GT6 because of the fun I have when I race with friends and the funny things we talk about over our microphones.

A very good point, I'll have a hard time "dropping" GT5 at any point unless the people I know also do.

They should be as conscious, as anticipation. That's the exact thought in Race Car Drivers mind while racing.


But that adds on to what I then said, the AI would have to calculate anticipation through understanding the multiple variables while within a race of other cars(Speed/turn approach/distance/type of vehicle/power/etc), and that's where we are in the coded world. But showing that the AI does respond in the most primitive of examples does provide potential for what the AI can do as more variable and calculations are brought into the mix.

You're missing the point again.
All you can prove by parking a car and seeing if they dodge, is that they'll dodge a parked car.
That's it.
It's called "parameters", and the AI is likely not programmed to respond to all parameters.
Just because a game doesn't respond to a simple test like this, does not mean they can't respond to a more likely scenario. Vice versa, if they do respond to a parked car, it doesn't mean they'll respond to a racing car alongside them.

You've shown video that they do make an attempt to dodge.
Care to see a video where they don't acknowledge a car racing beside them, or do you understand my point now?

Whatever you say, perfesser, though I haven't seen you destroy anything. You sure didn't have an answer to a simpel question, I see. "Oh, they're really not that much alike at all. You're just wrong is all. I say so, and that makes it true." Sure.

I don't need to answer your obvious questions, we know FM is the only other game to offer close to the "stock" of GT.
But you're being to thick headed to understand that doesn't make it a copy.
And learn how to spell professor, oh, you're probably throwing out yet another insult, aren't you?

Congratulations, you're the second person to make my ignore list. You fail on all levels today.

 

[another_jakhole]

So once again we're dismissing NFS over yet another pathetic reason?
It doesn't count because it's not console specific?

It's far from being a Sim anymore so stop being so close-minded. How many console games are Sims? It's just that simple. GT has been around for too long to say that it COPIED NFS. Even though NFS was a big one, Kaz came up with the idea of GT when he was 15. So a teenager has a revolutionary idea that he makes come true copied NFS? He's the one that fully committed to it. Is NFS still making true Sims?

 

[MoGoSpeed]

@CSLACR

Yes it does. You don't understand my point. It gives you a foundation of the AI and how they will adjust themselves accordingly. You don't get that. If you also watch the video I showed you It also shows different AI responding randomly to the different AI that's Responding to the parked car. Thus examples of Anticipation. In the coded world you don't go from multiple variable backwards especially with AI.

They have to learn how to move a pawn before checkmating the king.

 

[another_jakhole]

@CSLACR

Yes it does. You don't understand my point. It gives you a foundation of the AI and how they will adjust themselves accordingly. You don't get that. If you also watch the video I showed you It also shows different AI responding randomly to the different AI that's Responding to the parked car. Thus examples of Anticipation. In the coded world you don't go from multiple variable backwards especially with AI.

They have to learn how to move a pawn before checkmating the king.

Anticipation - That's why if you race and not try to overtake at any chance possible, AI should be fine, just not all the time in every circumstance. I can't understand how people say GT4 and GT5 AI are "Same". Even if it's an exaggeration, it's a too far fetched thing to say.

 

[MoGoSpeed]

^Truth.

I do hope they can implement some badassery mode where AI drivers are extremely aggressive, and make us lose more times than not (Although I do know that does increase calculations while increase processing power, but hopefully PD can continue to find more ways to be efficient with the PS3).

 

[paracefan2002]

numbers don't lie.... gt5 is a great game, despite the flaws.

 

[Tornado]

GT4's AI was basically the most brain dead, terrible pieces of garbage ever committed to a racing game. That's an opinion based on having played serious racing games that span nearly two decades, starting with Super Monaco GP II. Never seen AI worse than what was in GT4.

For PD to to put together a fairly competent, realistically-flawed AI system when their previous effort was that is quite commendable at the very least. That isn't to say it can't be improved, and I can think of one major way to do it (make AI act the same way it does in B-Spec in both modes), but they have a damn good base to build off of.

 

[MoGoSpeed]

^I don't doubt it!

Curiousity.
Are you aware if the GT5 AI was built from the Ground up as was the physics?

 

[another_jakhole]

^I don't doubt it!

Curiousity.
Are you aware if the GT5 AI was built from the Ground up as was the physics?

http://videogamesrepublic.com/?p=12459

Tells you your answer I hope. There's nothing else that I know of that can tell us the answer. The GT4 typo should be remembered by the people who've come across these statements elsewhere. Actually, no. It's not.

5 years for GT4? Nevermind, that "GT4" was a typo.

“It’s been five years from GT4, and that’s the same amount of time it took to develop the first GT4. To create a game from scratch, that’s the amount of time it takes to get it right.”

the first? GT4, not from scratch. GT1 was. Although there were only 14-15 people who worked on GT1, one car used to take one day to make. Incredible amount of detail is required now.

 

[MoGoSpeed]

^

Nice! Thanks doode. Heres to great hope that GT5 will be a great stepping stone to what GT can continue to offer in the future, and a great learning experience for the guys at PD! 👍

 

[CSLACR]

It's far from being a Sim anymore so stop being so close-minded. How many console games are Sims? It's just that simple. GT has been around for too long to say that it COPIED NFS. Even though NFS was a big one, Kaz came up with the idea of GT when he was 15. So a teenager has a revolutionary idea that he makes come true copied NFS? He's the one that fully committed to it. Is NFS still making true Sims?

Did I call it a sim in any way relevant to this? Close minded my ass, you're just not getting it.
Since you are another expert on Kaz's vision, tell me about it.
How old is Kaz, what exactly was his vision, etc.

Secondly, if you re-read the posts, I never actually said GT is actually a copy of NFS in any way whatsoever. I said if FM is a copy of GT, then GT is a copy of NFS.
So go back and try again.

Furthermore, NFS has arguably attempted 2 sims in the past few years, called SHIFT, they may not be great, but they're still "sims" by definition.

And lastly, what are you getting at, isn't there supposed to be an underlying point? It would seem you just want to argue semantics.

@CSLACR

Yes it does. You don't understand my point. It gives you a foundation of the AI and how they will adjust themselves accordingly. You don't get that. If you also watch the video I showed you It also shows different AI responding randomly to the different AI that's Responding to the parked car. Thus examples of Anticipation. In the coded world you don't go from multiple variable backwards especially with AI.

They have to learn how to move a pawn before checkmating the king.

You're still misunderstanding. The AI has a "zone" of sorts around it of which it is aware of what is happening, and what surrounds it.
So just because it doesn't recognize the obstruction fast enough to get around it still doesn't mean it can't drive properly around you.

Anticipation - That's why if you race and not try to overtake at any chance possible, AI should be fine, just not all the time in every circumstance. I can't understand how people say GT4 and GT5 AI are "Same". Even if it's an exaggeration, it's a too far fetched thing to say.

They're not even close to the same, I actually made a thread about it in a way.