Camber

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How is this thread still popular? Why are you guys feeding the trolls? We figured out camber a long time ago. I guess if you have nothing better to do then carry on, but I bet playing GT6 is more fun than troll feeding sessions. Maybe I'm wrong?
In my opinion, this thread is beyond trolling stage, in a good sense, I guess if you have nothing better to say, then, play to GT6.

Conflicts, crises and misfortunes attract attention and they stimulate debate, discussion promotes reflection, and reflection is the engine of changes, I see nothing wrong here in order PD fix the damn thing.
 
When GT car settings made any sense? :D

What you say makes sense, but this car in game has more grip when you exit the curve with full ballast and as much power as possible, top speed is higher too.

Then simply move the ballast forwards slightly to get the balance back ;)
 
As a reader of thread, I can bet at 0.0 camber defenders are running with DS3, and guys standing behind camber are going on Wheel.
 
As a reader of thread, I can bet at 0.0 camber defenders are running with DS3, and guys standing behind camber are going on Wheel.

Would you like to make a wager on that? Hope you have a good bank account. :) (Or whatever you wish to bet with.)
 
@GTP_CargoRatt, @Zenmervolt, okey maybe some are using wheel too :)
IMO zero camber grips fine on, but when it breaks traction then its so much more bye bye track and hi to wall if comparing to modest camber.
Running on modest camber you can bend more on corners (speaking GT6, even people are saying broken camber etc), but you have to have suspension what allows body to bend on sides, on stiff suspension camber is not helping 'coz game doesn't include rubber/tire bend on "physics" model(or is pretty small).
 
@GTP_CargoRatt, @Zenmervolt, okey maybe some are using wheel too :)
IMO zero camber grips fine on, but when it breaks traction then its so much more bye bye track and hi to wall if comparing to modest camber.
Running on modest camber you can bend more on corners (speaking GT6, even people are saying broken camber etc), but you have to have suspension what allows body to bend on sides, on stiff suspension camber is not helping 'coz game doesn't include rubber/tire bend on "physics" model(or is pretty small).


Sounds like you have "Jack Syndrome" :lol::lol:
 
Jack's MO seems to be opening a tuning garage first then post on this thread, now we have 2 abandoned tuning garage.
 
@GTP_CargoRatt, @Zenmervolt, okey maybe some are using wheel too :)

Try "most" instead of "some" and you'll be right.

IMO zero camber grips fine on, but when it breaks traction then its so much more bye bye track and hi to wall if comparing to modest camber.

That's break-away behavior and camber settings should not have much affect on that. Camber, in real life, does not change how suddenly a tire loses grip. Real-life negative camber improves steady-state cornering grip (the sort of cornering grip that is tested properly on a skidpad), not at-the-limit stability.

Most of the people claiming camber "works" talk, as you have, about the ability to catch the car when it starts to lose grip or about it making the car more predictable. This is largely because camber setups always run more front camber than rear camber and the result is that cars with camber understeer. Understeer is much more easily controlled than oversteer and, as a result, many are mistaking this easier handling for being faster when the reality is that it's not.

Running on modest camber you can bend more on corners (speaking GT6, even people are saying broken camber etc), but you have to have suspension what allows body to bend on sides, on stiff suspension camber is not helping 'coz game doesn't include rubber/tire bend on "physics" model(or is pretty small).

As (most) suspension compresses, it gains camber on its own (in the real world). So the more the car rolls in a corner, the more dynamic camber is added by the suspension. A car that is not rolling (and therefore not compressing the outside suspension as much in corners) because of very stiff suspension does not benefit from that increase in dynamic camber and should actually need slightly more static camber than a car with softer springs.

For that reason, I do not buy the argument that the issue is having too stiff of springs; even with very stiff springs 2 to 3 degrees of static negative camber should increase steady-state cornering grip. Repeated independent testing has shown that, in GT6, that amount of camber reduces grip.

The bottom line is this: Unless and until an update comes along to change the physics engine, camber in GT6 is not accurately reflecting the real world.
 
@Zenmervolt, you missed one crucial part: "speaking GT6".
I know how camber work on real life, like I said you still can use it on GT6 with good benefits, if going on loose suspension.

Camber on real world and stone hard tires under car (pressure+ compound not flexible) you go close to GT6 physics.
Get point? I know how wrong GT6 is going, but if you think at you are running really high pressured tires and make settings on them you'll manage to do decent car on GT6 with camber.

Camber is working on GT6, but it's not so useful until tire flexibility is modeled to physics too.
 
OdeFinn
IMO zero camber grips fine on, but when it breaks traction then its so much more bye bye track and hi to wall if comparing to modest camber.
I agree here.

OdeFinn
Running on modest camber you can bend more on corners (speaking GT6, even people are saying broken camber etc), but you have to have suspension what allows body to bend on sides, on stiff suspension camber is not helping 'coz game doesn't include rubber/tire bend on "physics" model(or is pretty small).
I don't agree here, if you look at my car settings of the LCC Rocket you'll see it's pretty stiff regarding dampers and ARB, and camber at 0.5 worked somehow, anyway camber so far is a mess, they changed something in the 1.04 patch because before this patch the loss of grip was bigger than the current one.
 
@eclipsee, will test those settings soon, probably that MR car bends rear just nicely on corners to that 0.5 camber and grip is good that for.
 
@Zenmervolt, you missed one crucial part: "speaking GT6".
I know how camber work on real life, like I said you still can use it on GT6 with good benefits, if going on loose suspension.

Camber on real world and stone hard tires under car (pressure+ compound not flexible) you go close to GT6 physics.
Get point? I know how wrong GT6 is going, but if you think at you are running really high pressured tires and make settings on them you'll manage to do decent car on GT6 with camber.

Camber is working on GT6, but it's not so useful until tire flexibility is modeled to physics too.

No, I've not missed your point.

Even with hard tires, the compression of the suspension induces significant negative dynamic camber. To the point that cars do not compress the suspension as much require more negative static camber than cars which are sprung more softly and can roll to a greater degree. Your argument was that the stiff springs weren't allowing enough body roll for camber in GT6 to work right. And that's simply nonsensical given that we're seeking something that works similarly to reality. Real cars don't need soft springs in order for negative static camber to add grip. Even assuming that GT6 camber did add grip with soft springs (which has not been the case in any of my testing), that would still not make camber in GT6 an accurate representation of real life.

When I take my car to the track, the first thing I do is increase the tire pressure. This reduces sidewall flex and improves the car's responsiveness. What it most certainly does not do is require me to reduce my static camber settings or soften my spring rates.

Camber is definitely not working properly in GT6 and the arguments you've made to suggest that it is simply don't reflect an understanding of what happens in reality.
 
@Zenmervolt, I didn't said loose suspension makes camber work right, or stiff make it work wrong, camber itself is working on GT6, and you can use it to gain some good benefits with "loose" suspension.
Problem is that camber is nonsense on real life also if there is bricks rolling as tires, tires need to bend on sideways and up/down to get any benefits from camber.
GT6 tire model can be described like bricks covered with few centimeter rubber over it, so more camber and more on edge of tire you'll go, more edge is less contact to road. Real life tires are pressed against road and they bend to get more area on ground, and cornering G-forces are pushing more to ground and to side and tires are bend down to road more, what is not happening on GT6, GT6 tires are just bricks what you can manipulate to take more touching on ground during cornering only by loosening suspension.

Want to see you on track with 10bar tires.(and still it's too soft to compare to GT6 tire structure)

Still, GT6 Camber itself works, tires not.
 
@Zenmervolt, I didn't said loose suspension makes camber work right, or stiff make it work wrong,

I never said you did say that. Please kindly keep to the points I'm actually making and try to avoid inventing new arguments with every post.

What I said was that softer springs cause more negative dynamic camber. As suspension compresses, the compression induces additional negative camber, beyond the amount that is set when the car is at rest. If camber were modeled correctly, cars with softer springs would do worse with more negative static camber than cars with stiff springs because the stiffer springs would prevent the suspension from compressing and thereby prevent the increased negative dynamic camber while cornering.

You are saying that softer springs allow the overall car to "roll over" on the inflexible tires and thereby benefit from static camber. What you are neglecting is the fact that, as the suspension compresses, that adds its own amount of negative camber (which cannot be adjusted in the car's settings). When under cornering load, a car with soft springs has more negative dynamic camber than a car with stiff springs, because the car with softer springs is compressing its suspension more.

Let's play with some hypotheticals here. Say a car with soft springs compresses the suspension in a particular corner enough to increase negative camber by 1.0 degrees, while a car with stiff springs only compresses the suspension enough to increase negative camber by 0.5 degrees.

Even with static camber set to 0.0 degrees, the actual dynamic camber experienced by the outside wheels on the above cars will be -1.0 degrees for the softly sprung car and -0.5 degrees for the stiffly sprung car.

If having -1.0 degrees of camber in the corner is optimal, then the softly sprung car will need a static camber of 0.0 degrees, while the stiffly sprung car will need a static camber of -0.5 degrees in order to achieve the proper total camber (dynamic plus static) in the corner.

You can see clearly here that in real life, a softly sprung car needs less static camber than a stiffly sprung car.

This is the opposite of what you are claiming is happening in GT6.

Even if we accept the "brick tire" hypothesis as true, the result should still be that soft springs make the negative effects of camber worse, not better, because of the increase in negative dynamic camber induced by suspension compression. You yourself admit that this is not happening. Your own observations are inconsistent with your conclusion.

Want to see you on track with 10bar tires.(and still it's too soft to compare to GT6 tire structure)

Oh look, we're back to strawman arguments.

Still, GT6 Camber itself works, tires not.

For the reasons outlined above, plus repeated testing, I have to disagree.
 
Still, GT6 Camber itself works ****

I disagree as well.

Currently, the camber settings in GT6 "affect" a car's suspension, but they do not "work".

Right now there is a Seasonal Time Trial which uses the High End Performance G37 (a nice stable car):

at Willow Springs International Raceway: Streets of Willow Springs 2.675m
ranking 13/02 until 27/02
560 PP Sports Soft Tyres No Nitrous
Gift: GT FLUORESCENCE 001-C
Gold: 55.000Cr. 1:14.000
Silver: 25.000Cr. 1:17.000
Bronze: 19,000Cr. 1:22.000
Tunes will be posted Here:
Betty Blue
Exeter GT Tuning
Silver Dragon Racing
Doodlemonoply
Boone
Narrie82
Fly-me-to-the moon-tuning-garage
JujiroMatsuda
GTP_CargoRatt

^^^^^Some very fast drivers have given us some very fast tunes for the G37:👍

Lets take a look at the camber settings for these tunes:

Betty Blue has the camber at 0/0
Exeter GT Tuning has the camber at 0/0
Silver Dragon Racing has the camber at 0/0
Doodlemonoply has the camber at 0/0
Boone has the camber at 0/0
Narrie82 has the camber at 0/0
Fly-me-to-the moon-tuning-garage has the camber at 0/0
JujiroMatsuda has the camber at 0/0
GTP_CargoRatt has the camber at 0/0

Do you notice the trend?

They all have the camber at 0/0 because they have found that if you want a fast car for the Streets of Willow Springs, you should set the camber at 0/0 since it will give you the most grip for the corners at Willow Springs.

GT6 camber shouldn't work this way if it correctly modeled "real life camber", but at the moment, this is how GT6 works.

GTsail
 
@Zenmervolt,

Cornering real life; sstatic -1.5, real life tires, and hard racing suspension.
Effects, first reaction on tires, they compressed against road, flexed sideways, almost zero changes to camber, then suspension starts to work and if roll bars dampers and springs are stiff there were some changes to camber, not huge, and definitely not as first reaction on cornering, more like last reaction.

Then same on GT6,
Tires are static, no changes at all to them, body rolls, static -1.5 changes along suspension goes in, hard arb/susp/springs, all force is delivered to small part of wheel what starts to slip sideways.. yeah.
same with "loose" suspension, loose arb, loose, springs, loose dampers (My definition loose is close to default "custom" suspension on GT6), body rolls starts to lift inner side and same time when inner side is rising over arb protected lift, outer side camber starts to decrease, and this point your "modest" value on camber starts to get more grip and helps on traction.

Playing with inner side lift (bodyroll what is not stopped by ARB or any other part of suspension) you can tune GT6 car to gain some benefits from camber.






Heavily stopped body roll setup get huge advantage from 0.0 camber on GT6, and only because game has tires modeled as BRICKS.

@GTsail290, "Currently, the camber settings in GT6 "affect" a car's suspension, but they do not "work"."
Camber along without proper modelling of tire grip area/flex/bend will never "work" as it should, and still we are speaking it on wrong way, because problem isn't camber, it is tire modeling.
 
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Eurgh.

@OdeFinn

Mate. It seems your main argument is the lack of tyre flex.

In your opinion, does gt5 simulate tyre flex properly, and is this the reason camber works 'as expected' on gt5?

I ask, because I don't believe tyre flex is modeled in gt5, yet camber gives the expected results.

On a side note, @Zenmervolt , you increase tyre pressure in real life for track work?

I tend to drop mine by about 3-6 psi, depending on ambient temp, due to increased pressure when the tyre(air) is hot.

I find this gives me what im looking for, in regards to keeping the pressures in check. They also heat up faster due to the increased flex when cold.

If I run road pressures, I end up overheating the tyres and getting that horrible high speed floaty sensation after a few hot laps.

I'm interested in your reasoning, aside from decreased sidewall flex (I run michelins with a medium - soft sidewall, so it can be an issue), as I agree with alot of what you have posted on this site.
 
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I agree here.


I don't agree here, if you look at my car settings of the LCC Rocket you'll see it's pretty stiff regarding dampers and ARB, and camber at 0.5 worked somehow, anyway camber so far is a mess, they changed something in the 1.04 patch because before this patch the loss of grip was bigger than the current one.
I believe that small amount of camber worked for you, I have no doubt, your reputation precedes you:bowdown::cheers:. But it's entirely possible that you have a somewhat unique or at least unusual situation. It's a TT, it's a very light car, and it's handling is a bit wonky, with natural entry understeer and then power on oversteer. And SRF is on. I'd like to see what you come up with if you tune the car online, without SRF with the same power/weight/pp etc. And it begs the question, are you using camber on any other tunes successfully?
 
I don't believe tyre flex is modeled in gt5, yet camber gives the expected results.
Same thoughts here. 👍

I believe that small amount of camber worked for you, I have no doubt, your reputation precedes you:bowdown::cheers:. But it's entirely possible that you have a somewhat unique or at least unusual situation. It's a TT, it's a very light car, and it's handling is a bit wonky, with natural entry understeer and then power on oversteer. And SRF is on. I'd like to see what you come up with if you tune the car online, without SRF with the same power/weight/pp etc. And it begs the question, are you using camber on any other tunes successfully?

Sure, sure, this is an unusual situation, I'm still in the 0.0 wagon, but I swear - 0.5 camber at the rear works with the car settings I'm using, as I said people who can check what settings I'm using in the replay will see I'm not lying.

Maybe the use of SRF is masking the camber values, I think SRF is nothing more than upgraded tires but maybe there are more things involved (likely), at least is not as arcadish as in GT5, I've pending yet to try the same combo with more sticky tires without SRF, but that's another story.

I didn't succeed with camber on any other tunes of the past GT6 seasonal TT combos, in all of them I was using SRF.
 
@FussyFez, @eclipsee, GT5 probably was just counting camber as part of grip multiplier what consist grip on forward/backward and sideways calculated "physics engine" G-force counter.
GT6 probably is counting on new physics from "new tire model" and they have forget to count tire flex in it, and that for camber won't give combined values to grip. (urf, hard to get any sense this, trying to explain on language what is not my native one)

GT6 tires have value for grip, changed by temperature, all ways g-forces, suspensions moves, but tires have static formation and it counts them as they were bricks, touching ground only geometrically as brick, and if you put negative camber it cants those bricks and after it only corner of that brick touches to ground, and new suspension physics model counts that small corner part of tire for your "grip area" and uses it to calculate your overall grip. (back to that rubber covered brick, there might be some calculated rubber surface on those bricks, and physics engine can add that few centimeter rubber cover as "bending" rubber to increase grip area, but not enough to be even close to real bend of tire rubber)
(please understand what I'm trying to say)
 
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@FussyFez, @eclipsee, GT5 probably was just counting camber as part of grip multiplier what consist grip on forward/backward and sideways calculated "physics engine" G-force counter.
GT6 probably is counting on new physics from "new tire model" and they have forget to count tire flex in it, and that for camber won't give combined values to grip. (urf, hard to get any sense this, trying to explain on language what is not my native one)

GT6 tires have value for grip, changed by temperature, all ways g-forces, suspensions moves, but tires have static formation and it counts them as they were bricks, touching ground only geometrically as brick, and is you put negative camber it cants those bricks and after it only corner of that brick touches to ground, and new suspension physics model counts that small corner part of tire for your "grip area" and uses it to calculate your overall grip.
(please understand what I'm trying to say)
Thankyou for trying to explain. I appreciate it, as I would not be able to speak (or type) in your language (whatever that might be)


I do understand what you are saying. But I still don't see any gain from camber.

I think you agree with what is being said by others though.

Camber is doing something. No doubt about that. It's just not working correctly. We agree on that I think?

I agree with your theory about tyre flex (lack of) being the culprit. Very probable, in my opinion, given all the testing and results posted. :cheers::gtpflag:
 
I was just having a little chuckle to myself thinking with the next update imminent (well hopefully) wouldn't it be funny if they fixed the camber issues and the people who run 0.0 now wrote posts tomorrow praising it & the people who are running camber now wrote posts to say how broken it is . We would be back to square one in this thread.
 
I was just having a little chuckle to myself thinking with the next update imminent (well hopefully) wouldn't it be funny if they fixed the camber issues and the people who run 0.0 now wrote posts tomorrow praising it & the people who are running camber now wrote posts to say how broken it is . We would be back to square one in this thread.
We can only pray!
 
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