Do you believe in God?

[Joey D]

Actually, the more I ask why, the less I can fathom the existence of a supernatural being/power.

===
Semi-O/T aside:

Your response throws me back to high school a bit. I went to a cultural/religious/racial tolerance retreat and the number one rule of that place was to always speak in "I" statements.

This is not an "I" statement: "As stated I think when you ask "why?" enough you eventually reach an area where the supernatural starts to make sense."

Reworded into an "I" statement: "As stated I think when I ask 'why?" enough I eventually reach an area where the supernatural starts to make sense"

Dialogue in a forum like such as this is much more productive if everyone sticks to "I" statements for reasons I think you're smart enough to realize without having me spell them out for you.
===

Getting back on topic, are you saying that you believe in a supernatural being because you asked yourself "why?" and could not come up with any other answer better than "well, there must be something superpowerful controlling everything"?

I've ended up with there must be something more powerful out of our realm of existence. When I get down to questions like "why did the Big Bang occur?" or "Where the matter present in the singularity come from? If it came from another universe then where is the beginning?" I don't believe things can exist in this realm without being created at some point. There has to be a starting point.

The concept of God also makes it difficult for me to comprehend too since there had to have been a beginning for it. But if the concept of God is out of this realm and thus supernatural, it might play by different rules.

 

[Villain]

So then the answer is yes, you asked yourself "why" and could not come up with anything better than the idea that there must be a supernatural being/power/God.

 

[Joey D]

So then the answer is yes, you asked yourself "why" and could not come up with anything better than the idea that there must be a supernatural being/power/God.

You make it sound as I didn't think it through and just said "what the hell, God did it." I've thrown many answers around and nothing provided me with something I could accept. I didn't pick God because I couldn't come up with anything better, but rather I couldn't come up with anything that was logical to me.

I know many will disagree and that's ok, I know there are all sorts of thoughts on these questions.

 

[Hun200kmh]

Atheists are interesting in the sense that they know theists can't prove the existence of God. Yet they ask for that proof over, and over, and over, and over. Win-win kind of debate for them, or so they think.


The debate, however, remains unsolved, and stalls. Because atheists cannot also tell theists how it all begun.

Not believing in any "uncaused cause" (one of the ways to refer to God) they must believe that "whatever is in this Universe, or in several Universes" exists in eternal mutation, with no begining and no end ... problem is that this eternal circle (if circle it is) defies their own logical cause&effect science. They need to numbly accept that the Universe(s) simply ... exists? Curiously, to this I see no logical answer, but also no problems due to the lack of it from the atheist camp. We (and all we know exists or has existed in the past, down to the big bang and before it) .... just happen to ... happen.

 

[Villain]

Your answer to my question also remains unsolved...

Only Joey gave an honest answer.

 

[DogFightKingz]

God is fake

 

[Sam48]

This is automatically false because billions of people already believe in God without any evidence.

I was referring to atheists like yourself *only*. But just look at Jesus as an example. About 12 people (Well 11 you might say) truly believed in him out of a entire community filled with Jews. Of course that's not nearly as stellar as God himself coming to earth, but you get the gist.

When I get down to questions like "why did the Big Bang occur?" or "Where the matter present in the singularity come from? If it came from another universe then where is the beginning?" I don't believe things can exist in this realm without being created at some point. There has to be a starting point.

Actually, they don't have to have a starting point. Something without a starting point is simply incomprehendable to us. The whole idea of start and finish is simply a concept we've come to accept due to the fact that everything we know follows this rule.

 

[Tic Tach]

The debate, however, remains unsolved, and stalls. Because atheists cannot also tell theists how it all begun.

Oh my, that ain't right. Imagine a courtroom where you are dragged in, accused of being guilty of murder with absolutely no evidence, and the prosecution says: "Your honor, if you can't prove that it wasn't him, we ask that he be deemed guilty and sent to life in prison."

 

[Dan_]

Dangerous analogy, since belief is an option and a trial is not.

 

[Tic Tach]

Dangerous analogy, since belief is an option and a trial is not.

The analogous part (which I was hoping would be obvious) is how a baseless presupposition is claimed as somehow valid unless an alternative explanation is provided.

 

[Dan_]

It was.

The flaw within your analogy is that a trial has two possible outcomes: Yes or no.

The question on the OP has many:

Yes, no or define "God".

You're also wording your thoughts in a way that assumes that atheism is the default situation and theism is the one to be proven. That's just another way to be fanatic.

Both theories are still effectively unproven.

 

[Villain]

I was referring to atheists like yourself *only*. But just look at Jesus as an example. About 12 people (Well 11 you might say) truly believed in him out of a entire community filled with Jews. Of course that's not nearly as stellar as God himself coming to earth, but you get the gist.

Actually, they don't have to have a starting point. Something without a starting point is simply incomprehendable to us. The whole idea of start and finish is simply a concept we've come to accept due to the fact that everything we know follows this rule.

So what is the basis for your belief in God?

 

[huskeR32]

It was.

The flaw within your analogy is that a trial has two possible outcomes: Yes or no.

The question on the OP has many:

Yes, no or define "God".

You're also wording your thoughts in a way that assumes that atheism is the default situation and theism is the one to be proven. That's just another way to be fanatic.

Both theories are still effectively unproven.

For the last time, atheism is NOT a 🤬 theory (or belief)!

Just stop beating that dead horse already. Enough!

Yes, atheism is the default situation, because it's the state of not believing ANY of the unproven religions. Atheism doesn't require a person to take anything on faith, it just requires rejecting anything that does require that. Until one religion is proven, it makes sense that the default would be not believing any of them. Which by definition is atheism.

I apologize for the all-caps, but for the last 🤬 time:

ATHEISM IS NOT A THEORY. It doesn't make any verifiable or unverifiable claim whatsoever. End of story!

 

[Tic Tach]

You're also wording your thoughts in a way that assumes that atheism is the default situation and theism is the one to be proven. That's just another way to be fanatic.

Atheism is the defaut position. Everyone is born an atheist. It isn't until such beliefs are inculated, indoctrinated, brainwashed, or lovingly introduced into the defenceless, unformed mind of the child; a mind that is evolutionary predisposed to believe - without question - what it's parents tell it.


There is no absurdity, however palpable, which cannot be firmly implanted in the minds of all, if only one begins to inculcate it before the early age of six by constantly repeating it to them with an air of great solemnity. For the training of man, like that of animals, is completely successful only at an early age. (Arthur Schopenhaur)



All children are atheists, they have no idea of god. (Baron d’Holebach)


The Bible. That is what fools have written, what imbeciles command, what rogues teach, and young children are made to learn by heart. (Voltaire)


I am convinced now that children should not be subjected to the frightful mess of the Christian religion. If the concept of a father who plots to have his own son put to death is presented to children as beautiful and as worthy of societies admiration, what types of human behavior can be presented to them as reprehensible? (Ruth Hurmence Green)


Just think of the tragedy of teaching children not to doubt. (Clarence Darrow)


The danger of religious faith is that it allows otherwise normal human beings to reap the fruits of madness and consider them holy. Because each new generation of children is taught that religious propositions need not be justified in the way that all others must, civilization is still besieged by the armies of the preposterous. We are, even now, killing ourselves over ancient literature. Who could have thought something so tragically absurd could be possible? (Sam Harris)


The belief in eternal torment, still subscribed to by fundamentalist Christian denominations, undoubtedly ranks as the most vicious and reprehensible doctrine of classical Christianity. It has resulted in an incalculable amount of psychological torture, especially among children where it is employed as a terror tactic to prompt obedience. (George H. Smith)

 

[Dan_]

So, what I was saying about fanatism...

Yes, atheism is the default situation, because it's the state of not believing ANY of the unproven religions. Atheism doesn't require a person to take anything on faith, it just requires rejecting anything that does require that.

And for that it uses scientific theories to base it's assumptions... so, it's a theory in the very same way.

ATHEISM IS NOT A THEORY. It doesn't make any verifiable or unverifiable claim whatsoever. End of story!

It does, that all religions are wrong. But yet, there is no irrefutable proof against all beliefs, because that would be impossible to do. See how it is still an unproven theory?

Much like having a belief.

The scientific evidence we have so far, strongly suggests that there is no God as defined by any religion, it doesn't suggests in any way that there is no factor responsible for creating (eg. a creator) the universe since little is known about that.

I'll rest my case.

 

[huskeR32]

So, what I was saying about fanatism...

Because I get tired of people twisting what atheism truly is, I'm a fanatic? If I claimed over and over again that Christians believe in a god who demands child sacrifice, and continued to assert that despite many Christians saying it wasn't true, then any Christian who got angry with me would also be suffering from "fanatism?" Gotcha...

And for that it uses scientific theories to base it's assumptions... so, it's a theory in the very same way.

Atheism doesn't have any view one way or the other about how the universe started, it just doesn't accept any unproven religious explanation. Now, individual atheists have their own views on what the think started it all (yes, based on theories), but those views lay outside of atheistic thought. Detach the two in your mind.

It does, that all religions are wrong. But yet, there is no irrefutable proof against all beliefs, because that would be impossible to do. See how it is still an unproven theory?

No, no, no, no. See above. Atheism is simply this (and ONLY this): Not believing in a god that's not proven to exist. Individual atheists may choose to consider some theories over others to be more plausible, but again, that's outside of what atheism is. It's just a person's thoughts. As a Christian, are all of your thoughts part of Christian doctrine? No, you have many thoughts about other, non-Christian things. Guess what, so do atheists.

If you want to argue against something, at least know what you're arguing against.

 

[Tic Tach]

It does, that all religions are wrong.

When will this end? Rejecting a baseless, evidence-free, supernatural claim is not making a claim!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!




Me: Do you collect stamps?

You: No.

Me: Ahhh, so not collecting stamps is a hobby of yours!

 

[huskeR32]

When will this end? Rejecting a baseless, evidence-free, supernatural claim is not making a claim!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!




Me: Do you collect stamps?

You: No.

Me: Ahhh, so not collecting stamps is a hobby of yours!

Just fell off my chair I laughed so hard! Thank you for that

 

[Tic Tach]

Good post huskR32, but I feel I should correct one detail:

Atheism is simply this (and ONLY this): Not believing anything that's not proven.

Not quite. An atheist is merely a person who doesn't have god belief. An atheist might believe a whole host of things which have no evidence, just not god(s).

An atheist might believe in an afterlife, tarot cards, astrology, or any other sort of thing (although I think you'd be hard pressed to find any), just not god(s).

In addition, any two atheists may have nothing else in common other than their disbelief in god(s).





So much for "atheism being another religion", as the tired old yarn goes.

 

[Sam48]

So what is the basis for your belief in God?

Personal evidence. I know it sounds quite bland, but for some it doesn't take much.

I'll be honest.... that's it. But like I said, "much" is broad and changes from person to person.

 

[huskeR32]

Good post huskR32, but I feel I should correct one detail:



Not quite. An atheist is merely a person who doesn't have god belief. An atheist might believe a whole host of things which have no evidence, just not god(s).

Which is exactly what I was trying to say, I'm just not very eloquent sometimes.

An atheist might believe in an afterlife, tarot cards, astrology, or any other sort of thing (although I think you'd be hard pressed to find any), just not god(s).

In addition, any two atheists may have nothing else in common other than their disbelief in god(s).





So much for "atheism being another religion", as the tired old yarn goes.

Quite true, I thought that it would follow from the rest of my post that by not believing in anything I meant not believing in any gods. Upon re-read, it didn't come across as such. Corrected.

In any event, not matter how I worded it, I'm just trying to get these people to see that unless they understand what atheism means, they can't really argue against it.

 

[boomee]

Because I get tired of people twisting what atheism truly is, I'm a fanatic? If I claimed over and over again that Christians believe in a god who demands child sacrifice, and continued to assert that despite many Christians saying it wasn't true, then any Christian who got angry with me would also be suffering from "fanatism?" Gotcha...

What do you mean by a God that demands child sacrifice I dont understand

 

[huskeR32]

What do you mean by a God that demands child sacrifice I dont understand

I was making an erroneous claim about the nature of Christianity to try and point out that many people here are attributing certain claims to atheism that aren't accurate.

 

[boomee]

hmm ok

 

[Tic Tach]

I was making an erroneous claim about the nature of Christianity to try and point out that many people here are attributing certain claims to atheism that aren't accurate.

Actually your claim wasn't all that erroneous. The Abrahamic god did demand & require the torture & (temporary) death of his own boy in order to forgive mankind.

 

[huskeR32]

Actually your claim wasn't all that erroneous. The Abrahamic god did demand & require the torture & (temporary) death of his own boy in order to forgive mankind.

True, but I meant that current Christianity doesn't believe that it is required of them. I obviously need to stop posting here, I can't get my points across correctly.

 

[Villain]

I'll be honest.... that's it.

But you will not speak of what your personal evidence actually entails? What exactly are you discussing in this thread? The thread asks if you believe in God. You say much the same as "yes, from personal evidence."

What is your personal evidence?

But like I said, "much" is broad and changes from person to person.

Stop doing that! I'm not asking you to tell me what others believe! I'm asking you to tell me what you believe.

If your belief in God or religion is a building, no matter how complex that building is, it must be built on a strong foundation. Please tell me about this foundation. Maybe by telling us your story and detailing your personal beliefs others who may be unsure of their own beliefs will be able to relate and find it in themselves to also believe in God.

Are you Christian? If yes, then as a Christian are you not called to spread the Word of God and do you best to convince others to be saved in much the same way as yourself? Maybe your Christian denomination doesn't require you to be outspoken and aggressive in your outreach to non-believers, but given the opportunity, isn't it in your belief-set to try and save others?

 

[Tic Tach]

Upcoming show that looks interesting.

Wow, that show was awesome. I can't wait for the next one in the series of four, next week.

 

[hampus_dh]

The concept of God also makes it difficult for me to comprehend too since there had to have been a beginning for it. But if the concept of God is out of this realm and thus supernatural, it might play by different rules.

So for God 1+1=3 ?

When will this end? Rejecting a baseless, evidence-free, supernatural claim is not making a claim!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!




Me: Do you collect stamps?

You: No.

Me: Ahhh, so not collecting stamps is a hobby of yours!

That´s a future classic, you have my respect Tic Tach

 

[Joey D]

So for God 1+1=3 ?

Nope. More like x+y=z. You have many ways of looking at the problem with many different answers.