Do you believe in God?

[TankAss95]

Unfortunately there was no "Adam & Eve". So if your premise is flawed, so to will be your conclusions.

Why was there not?

 

[hampus_dh]

Because it would be incest.

 

[Tic Tach]

Why was there not?

For the same reason that all of the other "creation myths" of other cultures & religions are not true. They fly in the face of what we know of the origins of our species.

 

[High-Test]

Unfortunately there was no "Adam & Eve". So if your premise is flawed, so to will be your conclusions.

+1

I think a great many of us can agree that at least the first twenty-two chapters of Genesis are total myth. Some may choose to continue the myth label all the way to the back cover.


Science can quite handily prove that Adam and Eve were just an allegory.

 

[Akira AC]

Because it would be incest.

Apart from that, historically they are dated in 4000BC, mankind is older than that.

 

[High-Test]

For the same reason that all of the other "creation myths" of other cultures & religions are not true. They fly in the face of what we know of the origins of our species.

+2.

If I may:

Creation myths are just that: myths. A means for primitive societies to explain the unknowns of the world around them.

Which, 3300 years ago in the case of the Israelites, is a very large number of unknowns. Such as:

"Why does the world exist?"
"Where did it come from?"
"Why are we here?"
"Where did we come from?"
"Why do bad things happen?"

Now, we have answers to most of these. (and please correct me if I'm wrong)

1.) Because enough matter made from exploding stars was in the right place at the right time to coagulate into a very large mass.
2.) Most likely the remnants of long ago exploded stars.
3.) I'm not sure this is a question for science.
4.) The earth. We evolved from/alongside primates into what we are now; and we are nowhere near finished with the evolution process.
5.) Not a question for science.

 

[Tic Tach]

Out of curiosity, I just Googled (Images) for "Adam & Eve", and am perplexed by why they have belly buttons.

 

[High-Test]

Out of curiosity, I just Googled (Images) for "Adam & Eve", and am perplexed by why they have belly buttons.

LOL


Good sir (or madam) , that made my afternoon. Thank you.


Also, I do owe you an apology for singling you out. Underneath it all, you've made some spot-on comments. There were just several comments that seemed to me to be a little too bitter. I am definitely guilty of the same. Sometimes, we get carried away. Not that it makes it right.

After all - we're only human. Humans who, unlike Adam and Eve, are supposed to have belly buttons.

And the only GTP user I ever remotely hated was Young_Warrior, and he was banned at least six years ago if I recall correctly.

 

[Tic Tach]

Also, I do owe you an apology for singling you out. Underneath it all, you've made some spot-on comments. There were just several comments that seemed to me to be a little too bitter. I am definitely guilty of the same. Sometimes, we get carried away. Not that it makes it right.

Thanks for that. I suppose that what gets me riled is intellectual dishonesty. There's not a thing that I won't change my mind on provided with good evidence and reason; that's the beauty of being a free-thinker/rationalist/skeptic. I don't understand why religious positions/beliefs are so delicate, and why they are often held even tighter in the face of overwhelming evidence/reason that they're not true.

I would respect a person more if they were to say: "You know, I don't really believe any of it, but the sense of comfort & community I get from being a believer just feels too good to give up", rather than the person who believes the unbelievable, no matter what.



In science it often happens that scientists say, “You know that's a really good argument; my position is mistaken”, and then they actually change their minds and you never hear that old view from them again. They really do it, it happens every day. I cannot recall the last time something like that has happened in politics or religion. (Carl Sagan)

 

[TankAss95]

Out of curiosity, I just Googled (Images) for "Adam & Eve", and am perplexed by why they have belly buttons.

They are artist impressions, not evidence. If you think that the pictures are inaccurate then I would take it up with the artist/editor.

LOL

Good sir (or madam) , that made my afternoon. Thank you.

Also, I do owe you an apology for singling you out. Underneath it all, you've made some spot-on comments. There were just several comments that seemed to me to be a little too bitter. I am definitely guilty of the same. Sometimes, we get carried away. Not that it makes it right.

After all - we're only human. Humans who, unlike Adam and Eve, are supposed to have belly buttons.

And the only GTP user I ever remotely hated was Young_Warrior, and he was banned at least six years ago if I recall correctly.

Adam and eve could or could not have had belly buttons. Either way I think it is irrelevant when discussing the existence of Adam and Eve, or Christianity as a whole.

I am worried about your suggestive hate to another member of this site. Hate is a really strong word which should only be used in certain situations. If you are in fact Christian then I suggest you study the basis of the religion in more detail. Using the word dislike would be more fitting.

I know discussions of this type can get heated as people can be so passionate about their views, but try to control yourself.

 

[bonobo4]

Out of curiosity, I just Googled (Images) for "Adam & Eve", and am perplexed by why they have belly buttons.

They were created not born so technically according to Christianity one could argue hat hey were not brother and sister. However, they are still apparently the first humans making us all related very distantly to them. Which I believe is nonsense as disproved by the theory and not the fact of evolution.

 

[Hun200kmh]

High-Test has converted to Judaism I believe.

About Adam and Eve, I'll quote Famine on the chicken and the egg issue:

"The egg predates the chicken by several hundred million years. The chicken's egg, on the other hand, required a chicken to lay it and so first appeared after the first chickens reached sexual maturity." (read this with indigo color and bold lettering)

So, yes, I'd say both Adam and Eve had a belly button. Because ... you know ... evolution doesn't deny the existence of a primordial human, or a primordial couple. It just denies they were handmade by God, directly out of clay. LOL

 

[hampus_dh]

 

[Tic Tach]

They were created not born so technically according to Christianity one could argue hat hey were not brother and sister. However, they are still apparently the first humans making us all related very distantly to them.

Who did Adam & Eve's children have sex with?

 

[hampus_dh]

Who did Adam & Eve's children have sex with?

The talking snake obviously..

 

[High-Test]

They are artist impressions, not evidence. If you think that the pictures are inaccurate then I would take it up with the artist/editor.

Adam and eve could or could not have had belly buttons. Either way I think it is irrelevant when discussing the existence of Adam and Eve, or Christianity as a whole.

I am worried about your suggestive hate to another member of this site. Hate is a really strong word which should only be used in certain situations. If you are in fact Christian then I suggest you study the basis of the religion in more detail. Using the word dislike would be more fitting.

I know discussions of this type can get heated as people can be so passionate about their views, but try to control yourself.

They could have - If God exists, then anything is possible.

And I am happily not Christian in the slightest, save for my first name being Christopher.

Young_Warrior - 29 Nov 2005 - Consistent, all-pervasive idiocy.

Keep in mind I said "remotely hated". But you have a point - hate is an extremely strong word. And there is nobody on this site that I hate.

Thanks for that. I suppose that what gets me riled is intellectual dishonesty. There's not a thing that I won't change my mind on provided with good evidence and reason; that's the beauty of being a free-thinker/rationalist/skeptic. I don't understand why religious positions/beliefs are so delicate, and why they are often held even tighter in the face of overwhelming evidence/reason that they're not true.

I would respect a person more if they were to say: "You know, I don't really believe any of it, but the sense of comfort & community I get from being a believer just feels too good to give up", rather than the person who believes the unbelievable, no matter what.

That Carl Sagan quote is so true. 👍

Do I believe that Torah was divinely given? No. The idea that Moses received the whole of Torah on Sinai is preposterous just based on future plot elements. "Hey Moses, theres going to be a rebellion against you." I highly doubt that Moses would have gone along with the societal chaos that follows after revelation on Sinai.

Do I believe that evolution is a credible theory? Absolutely. There is no credible evidence stating otherwise.

Do I believe that the Universe is ~14.5 billion years old? Without a doubt.

I was a Christian for many years. (granted, I'm only 22, so the amount of time as a Christian while at the age of reason is open to debate) But the science loving logical side of me and the God-loving spiritual side of me were in constant tension at best. So a long winding road led me to the path of Reform Judaism, which to me seemed the best way out of everything I researched to give me the inner peace to reconcile my spiritual side and my logical side.

Taking the Torah, Tanakh, Bible, Quran, or what have we at face value is sheer and utter folly.

Maybe God did create the massive expansion of energy that triggered the Universe. Maybe not.

The question of this thread, "Do you believe in God" can be answered in one of two words: Yes or No.

And even though we have no scientific evidence to say that there is a God, my answer to the question will always be yes I do believe in God. The mathematical odds of my existence in an incomprehensibly vast universe are so fantastically improbable that I decided that the likelihood of my existence is about the same likelihood of God's existence. And thanks to Cartesian logic, I am fairly certain that I exist.

The rest of these 179 some pages are fluff. Maybe another thread would be appropriate to discuss the purpose of religion?

But even in the 21st century, surrounded by the astounding breakthroughs of science, I still find an inner peace from my religion that nothing else I've yet found has been able to replicate.

"God is in the details" - Ludwig Mies Van Der Rohe

 

[Tic Tach]

...And even though we have no scientific evidence to say that there is a God, my answer to the question will always be yes I do believe in God.

With all due respect, I'm hoping that you'll take a second look at that statement and see if you can identify one problem area.

 

[Tic Tach]

Upcoming show that looks interesting.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

Science and scientific knowledge isn't a product of atheism. In fact, I'll bet with a certainty of a win that the evolution of science in the last 5000 years happened MOSTLY by the intellectual work of believers in the existence of God.



I do believe in God, and for the record I am Christian and, among Christians, Catholic. But this thread isn't about Jesus Christ and christians, or about Jews and Judaism (although many try it to be so). This is about this fundamental question:

IS THERE A GOD?

About the existence of God (and believing God exists) I already wrote in this thread WHY I do believe in God. I've got nothing to add and I'm sorry if my reasoning sounds weak to you guys. The fact is ... I'm not trying to convert anyone. That's being a poor christian I know, but I really don't care much about others beliefs, as long as they act the same way towards me.

Here: https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?p=5653661#post5653661

Now, what can I say more. I found very interesting that Judaism defends that Christ ISN'T from the house of David. Again, I couldn't care less about such an issue, my belief is the house of David is irrelevant, it's the house of God that matters. But, from a purely intellectual point of view, I found it very curious that this "family-blood legitimacy" of Christ is still an issue in the jewish faith. We learn something everyday. Curiously, more from other believers (even if from a different religion) than from atheists.

I agree with you but then you have a certain group of atheist that think they're scientist even though they probably read wiki pages and don't take classes at the university and what not. Or just ramble cause they may have had a past with religion that rubbed them wrong and now they feel it is time to fight them to the very end.

You have these apathetic atheist which seem to be the extremist likes of the atheist thought, most of the atheist here are nice well spoken people and then you have a the few intollerant (we all know who they are). The point is there is some concept they have of people who believe in god, and they seem to think that if you believe in God you can't accept science. Why? Well that is something you should probably ask our local apathetic atheist.

 

[hampus_dh]

The mathematical odds of my existence in an incomprehensibly vast universe are so fantastically improbable

Are they really?

We have already found 1,235 extrasolar planets, Over 50 that might be "in the zone".

 

[Tic Tach]

I agree with you but then you have a certain group of atheist that think they're scientist even though they probably read wiki pages and don't take classes at the university and what not.

Oh my, I'm so offended by this post! Please, somebody help!

Nah.

So in order to be vocal against delusion, one must be employed in a field of science? That's messed up. You might consider the fact the smartest, most intelligent people on the planet are non-theistic. Something like 95% of the Academy of Science is atheistic. I'll listen to them over what my uneducated religious parents taught me any day. It takes a little courage though.

Or just ramble cause they may have had a past with religion that rubbed them wrong and now they feel it is time to fight them to the very end.

Actually, my experience with christianity and church was a good one; it was a great social outlet. It's just that I'm one of these odd individuals who care more about what's true.

You have these apathetic atheist.....

Apathtic means not caring. I suggest that vocal atheist cares deeply about the holding of false beliefs.


In some awful, strange, paradoxical way, atheists tend to take religion more seriously than the practitioners. (Jonathan Miller)

....which seem to be the extremist likes of the atheist thought

What on earth is an "extremist likes of atheist thought"? Atheism is nothing more than non-belief in a god or gods. There is no "atheist thought", any more than there is no a-astrology thought.

most of the atheist here are nice well spoken people and then you have a the few intollerant (we all know who they are).

Yes, I am intollerant of lies, false beliefs, and intellectual dishonesty. There are things which you are intollerant about....no?

The point is there is some concept they have of people who believe in god, and they seem to think that if you believe in God you can't accept science. Why?

No, the fact is that theists run to science whenever they need it, like medical attention, or DNA evidence in court (and list can go on), but they conveniently put science aside when it comes to faith (Faith: def: The effort to believe what you know isn't true).

Well that is something you should probably ask our local apathetic atheist.

Nice.

 

[TankAss95]

They could have - If God exists, then anything is possible.

And I am happily not Christian in the slightest, save for my first name being Christopher.

Keep in mind I said "remotely hated". But you have a point - hate is an extremely strong word. And there is nobody on this site that I hate.

That Carl Sagan quote is so true. 👍

Do I believe that Torah was divinely given? No. The idea that Moses received the whole of Torah on Sinai is preposterous just based on future plot elements. "Hey Moses, theres going to be a rebellion against you." I highly doubt that Moses would have gone along with the societal chaos that follows after revelation on Sinai.

Do I believe that evolution is a credible theory? Absolutely. There is no credible evidence stating otherwise.

Do I believe that the Universe is ~14.5 billion years old? Without a doubt.

I was a Christian for many years. (granted, I'm only 22, so the amount of time as a Christian while at the age of reason is open to debate) But the science loving logical side of me and the God-loving spiritual side of me were in constant tension at best. So a long winding road led me to the path of Reform Judaism, which to me seemed the best way out of everything I researched to give me the inner peace to reconcile my spiritual side and my logical side.

Taking the Torah, Tanakh, Bible, Quran, or what have we at face value is sheer and utter folly.

Maybe God did create the massive expansion of energy that triggered the Universe. Maybe not.

The question of this thread, "Do you believe in God" can be answered in one of two words: Yes or No.

And even though we have no scientific evidence to say that there is a God, my answer to the question will always be yes I do believe in God. The mathematical odds of my existence in an incomprehensibly vast universe are so fantastically improbable that I decided that the likelihood of my existence is about the same likelihood of God's existence. And thanks to Cartesian logic, I am fairly certain that I exist.

The rest of these 179 some pages are fluff. Maybe another thread would be appropriate to discuss the purpose of religion?

But even in the 21st century, surrounded by the astounding breakthroughs of science, I still find an inner peace from my religion that nothing else I've yet found has been able to replicate.

"God is in the details" - Ludwig Mies Van Der Rohe

Fantastic post. You have my respect. To be quite honest I don't have the relative knowledge to argue efficiently in this thread. My conclusion is that your opinion about the existence of a God is judged by your thoughts to how the universe became existent. Believing in the existence of a God does not automatically mean you follow a religion, remember.

It's all about your perceptions about what is possible, too. In my opinion, the world we live in is too complex to be created by chance. Of course you could say that with infinite chances you have infinite possibility, but part of the science explanation says that the universe was created through destruction. If we were made in a purely chaotic universe with no order, then I believe that if anything crucial in the development of our existence was created through the big bang, then it would simply fall back on itself, undoing any progress. Progress could be made, yet it would probably be constantly erased. The complexity of life itself needs constant order for it to properly exist.

I believe in God because it seems like the only logical reason. Plus I have felt the existence of God multiple times. It is an experience I cannot explain, yet it gave me so much hope and meaning I could not imagine my life without it now.

I am aware that religion isn't for everyone, but I have to admit that that fact makes me sad. I don't argue with athiests just to get a kick out of it, I want them to feel like I do. Life is fantastic knowing and following god, I encourage others to do so too. Saying that though I understand why people get could get so frustrated with me trying to achieve such things. This argument is pointless, and like my friend, High-Test has said, can only be judged by the individual through a simple yes or no answer.

For me, yes.

 

[Tic Tach]

In my opinion, the world we live in is too complex to be created by chance.

Face in hands.

some help

 

[High-Test]

With all due respect, I'm hoping that you'll take a second look at that statement and see if you can identify one problem area.

There is no scientific evidence supporting the existence of a God.

Yet I still believe, as there is no other explanation I have deemed sensible that explains why the universe exists.

Are they really? We have already found 1,235 extrasolar planets, Over 50 that might be "in the zone".

That's 1235 out of a number of planets so large that we cannot even comprehend it.

What are the odds of us existing right here and right now on a universal scale?

They might be better than we think, I would contend that they are.

All the matter in the universe comes from exploding stars, yes? And I am made from elements that were not present at the very beginning of the universe, elements that occur in a fantastically small percentage of all the matter in existence - and this matter had to coagulate just in the right way at the right place at the right time to even form planets, let alone the odds of them being within the habitable zone of a star, let alone the jump from non-living matter to living matter taking place at such a scale that living matter proliferates and differentiates itself, eventually becoming multicelled organisms. Break me down into my component elements, and there is no reason that any of them should equate as a whole to a living being - jokes of dismemberment and stitching me back together aside.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

Tic Tac, Apatheist or apathetic atheist is something Bill Maher came up with. That explained his atheist views and that of others that see it the way he does. Hence why I use it here. Even he sees it as an extreme way of atheist to look at religion.
(however he is a public figure so it could just be to create more drama)

You're intollerance as well as others isn't a stem from lies, if someone wants to find good in the bible or any other text that's fine. I don't agree with it, then again their life is their own and you, nor I have any say in what they want to believe or how they maintain a mental thought on the subject. End of story...you have attacked others and it's obvious that you should stay on subject. However, for the sake of intellectual integrity I must admit I have somewhat attacked you for your attacking, so it really doesn't make me any better. I must apologize for that.

I would like to know how, my defending of peoples ideas on here though makes me out to be religious? Or at least that's how it comes off, when I read what some of you write.

There is no atheist thought...it is one thing to simply not believe in a god that is fine, but when you go out and attack people and do name calling just because they believe in a god, that to you is okay? That isn't extreme in anyway...
Look you can pretend to be innocent but both sides from the past several pages agree that you are not debating but just outright flamming to prove a point.

 

[Famine]

The chance of life existing in this universe is 1:1. The chance of any other life existing anywhere else in the universe than on Earth is 1:→1

I'm probably an apathetic atheist. I don't really give a flying one what you believe, so long as you don't try and ram it down my throat or my family's throats. This includes alternative, obfuscating speculation on things we already know to be true (including the origins of this planet and our species) that don't tally with what you believe or trying to force us to live in a certain way according to your belief set (non-secular legislation).

You go believe whatever you want, whatever makes you feel better or justifies a certain set of behaviours, but please do it on your own time.

 

[hampus_dh]

The complexity of life itself needs constant order for it to properly exist.

Our Solar system is in order for life to exist.

From chaos comes order.

 

[High-Test]

The chance of life existing in this universe is 1:1. The chance of any other life existing anywhere else in the universe than on Earth is 1:→1

Whoops. I was wrong.

 

[Tic Tach]

And even though we have no scientific evidence to say that there is a God, my answer to the question will always be yes I do believe in God.

I guess I was hoping that you'd notice the untenable position (or statement) that you will always believe in god. Imagine using this in any other area of discourse:



"No matter what, I will always believe in ___________."


It should sound like nails on a chalkboard to any rational, thinking person, for there should be nothing that we create a special catagory for, for always holding that position or belief. For example, as much as I/we accept the fact of evolution as the explanation for the diversity of life on this planet, I/we would and should never say that I/we will always believe it no matter what; for if evidence arrises that shows that it is not true, I/we are in a position of folly.



It is wrong always, everywhere, and for anyone, to believe anything upon insufficient evidence. (W. K. Clifford)

 

[Owen.C93]

In my opinion, the world we live in is too complex to be created by chance. Of course you could say that with infinite chances you have infinite possibility, but part of the science explanation says that the universe was created through destruction. If we were made in a purely chaotic universe with no order, then I believe that if anything crucial in the development of our existence was created through the big bang, then it would simply fall back on itself, undoing any progress. Progress could be made, yet it would probably be constantly erased. The complexity of life itself needs constant order for it to properly exist.

On the whole it seems pretty simple after the first 1 second of existence or so. Lots of elements, heat and movement which combined to make matter, the matter then clumped up and via gravity and random collisions it pulled in more matter to create one big ball. You then orbit another larger body ie a star due to gravity and if you're lucky you will be at a decent distance for sustainable life. From there on it's just natural selection until we get to where we are now.

I believe in God because it seems like the only logical reason. Plus I have felt the existence of God multiple times. It is an experience I cannot explain, yet it gave me so much hope and meaning I could not imagine my life without it now.

I am aware that religion isn't for everyone, but I have to admit that that fact makes me sad. I don't argue with athiests just to get a kick out of it, I want them to feel like I do. Life is fantastic knowing and following god, I encourage others to do so too. Saying that though I understand why people get could get so frustrated with me trying to achieve such things. This argument is pointless, and like my friend, High-Test has said, can only be judged by the individual through a simple yes or no answer.

You act as if it's a feeling that only a religious person could feel? Atheists have that nice piece of mind that puts you in control of your life. I find that a pretty nice feeling.