Dynamic weather and light conditions not in Gran Turismo Sport

[djm99]

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2...sport-ditches-one-of-the-series-best-features

Not good!

Discuss

 

[Eunos_Cosmo]

My absolute favorite thing to do in GT5 was to start a lapping session at the Nurburgring before dawn and drive around the circuit while the sun was rising. I guess that's off the table now. What exactly is next-gen about this title anyways? Seems like a step backward in several key areas.

 

[Fat Tyre]

All good. Steady, locked frame rate should be the number one priority, if this is what's needed to cut down (for the moment) in order to achieve this then so be it. I applaud PD for having the courage to make the decision to take this necessary step in order to ensure great performance which I'm guessing they knew wouldn't be as popular with their fans.

 

[Rjo]

At one point i get the logic behind removing the weather options for the sake of framerate,but compared to the competition i have to say still it looks underwhelming and if i were a betting man i'd say they re-tooled their gt6 ps3 engine and put it on the ps4 for gt sport cause it doesn't look like an improvement considering they worked on this for the past three years o.O????? looking at this and many other comparisons and the trailer it looks like an upscaled gt6,that was just not what i expected looking at forza 6 on the xb1 and now they announced forza 7,god knows what they are going to show off considering the jumps they made from forza 5 to 6 i have a feeling that 7 is gonna surprise,a gut feeling tells me they'll pull of the impossible on xb1 turn10.

 

[GTPorsche]

My absolute favorite thing to do in GT5 was to start a lapping session at the Nurburgring before dawn and drive around the circuit while the sun was rising. I guess that's off the table now. What exactly is next-gen about this title anyways? Seems like a step backward in several key areas.

Actual 1920x1080p resolution, steady 60fps. Proper AA being utilized. A lighting system that isn't pre-rendered. Environments that aren't lined with tree paper.

Many steps backwards.

 

[ColouredBadger]

I personally can't see how time change affects frame rate. The only thing that changes is the light point and shadows.
Making a track have slowly increasing puddles, and spray as well as all other dynamic weather changes would hinder frame-rate a lot because the track is loading new textures, light levels as well as particle changes in rain drops and spray.
I just can't see how just a time change would affect anything to a noticeable degree.

It's a shame they're not including at least time change because I used to race with my casual group and have dynamic time on all races, even if it was just a 2 hour change. It made the immersion better, for me personally.

I think THE problem with all of this is Virtual Reality. VR is going to ruin games because of the need for 60fps locks. A very small percentage of people will bother with VR but they're catering for the extreme minority and taking out massive 'immersion' aspects like time change to make them happy.

I want to see Kaz race the 24h of Nurburgring on the North Pole so that it doesn't get dark, so he can experience what we will have to deal with in GT Sport.

Though, through it all, it's disappointing but not game breaking.

 

[djm99]

With the PS 4.5 on it's way maybe dynamic weather and lighting should be possible??

 

[gtracedriver1]

At one point i get the logic behind removing the weather options for the sake of framerate,but compared to the competition i have to say still it looks underwhelming and if i were a betting man i'd say they re-tooled their gt6 ps3 engine and put it on the ps4 for gt sport cause it doesn't look like an improvement considering they worked on this for the past three years o.O????? looking at this and many other comparisons and the trailer it looks like an upscaled gt6,that was just not what i expected looking at forza 6 on the xb1 and now they announced forza 7,god knows what they are going to show off considering the jumps they made from forza 5 to 6 i have a feeling that 7 is gonna surprise,a gut feeling tells me they'll pull of the impossible on xb1 turn10.

Are you sure you do not able to see noticeable difference between GTS and GT6 videos

No TOD is a huge disappointment. Pcars has done a great job with it. I guess Polyphony are playing safe with GTS

 

[queleuleu]

I personally can't see how time change affects frame rate. The only thing that changes is the light point and shadows.
Making a track have slowly increasing puddles, and spray as well as all other dynamic weather changes would hinder frame-rate a lot because the track is loading new textures, light levels as well as particle changes in rain drops and spray.
I just can't see how just a time change would affect anything to a noticeable degree.

It's a shame they're not including at least time change because I used to race with my casual group and have dynamic time on all races, even if it was just a 2 hour change. It made the immersion better, for me personally.

I think THE problem with all of this is Virtual Reality. VR is going to ruin games because of the need for 60fps locks. A very small percentage of people will bother with VR but they're catering for the extreme minority and taking out massive 'immersion' aspects like time change to make them happy.

I want to see Kaz race the 24h of Nurburgring on the North Pole so that it doesn't get dark, so he can experience what we will have to deal with in GT Sport.

Though, through it all, it's disappointing but not game breaking.

Dynamic TOD is very demanding. If it wasn't the case Forza 6 would have it.

 

[GTPorsche]

I personally can't see how time change affects frame rate. The only thing that changes is the light point and shadows.
Making a track have slowly increasing puddles, and spray as well as all other dynamic weather changes would hinder frame-rate a lot because the track is loading new textures, light levels as well as particle changes in rain drops and spray.
I just can't see how just a time change would affect anything to a noticeable degree.

That all takes a ton of processing power, which would kill framerate. With my experience on PC games with just dynamic time, my computer has always taken a massive hit during day/night transitioning.

When GT7 comes around and they still don't have a dynamic time/weather system, then it's time to be concerned by the lack of it. Right now they need to optimize the best they can for the PS4 and VR support. After that they can see if they can push the PS4 further.

 

[SlipZtrEm]

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2...sport-ditches-one-of-the-series-best-features

Not good!

Discuss

You used an article from another site that directly links to our article on the front page as the source?

I personally can't see how time change affects frame rate. The only thing that changes is the light point and shadows.
Making a track have slowly increasing puddles, and spray as well as all other dynamic weather changes would hinder frame-rate a lot because the track is loading new textures, light levels as well as particle changes in rain drops and spray.
I just can't see how just a time change would affect anything to a noticeable degree.

I imagine the calculations required for the shadows is the big hog. Think of a tree-lined track like the 'Ring. With pre-baked shadows, they're simply a part of the track, and how a car interacts with them will be the same no matter what. But with the sun moving across the sky, there are now thousands of variables at play as the shadows change and stretch.

I agree that weather would probably affect FPS more than time, but I can see why the latter still would at some level.

I think THE problem with all of this is Virtual Reality. VR is going to ruin games because of the need for 60fps locks. A very small percentage of people will bother with VR but they're catering for the extreme minority and taking out massive 'immersion' aspects like time change to make them happy.

One could argue that VR provides immersion on a level few other features can. As someone that's tried it, I totally see the benefit, but the big issue is cost of entry.

 

[queleuleu]

That all takes a ton of processing power, which would kill framerate. With my experience on PC games with just dynamic time, my computer has always taken a massive hit during day/night transitioning.

When GT7 comes around and they still don't have a dynamic time/weather system, then it's time to be concerned by the lack of it. Right now they need to optimize the best they can for the PS4 and VR support. After that they can see if they can push the PS4 further.

Don't you think that GT6 was already a good base? Thanks to the additional power, all the technical flaws could be fixed.

 

[djm99]

Sod the VR Support !!

 

[GTPorsche]

Don't you think that GT6 was already a good base? Thanks to the additional power, all the technical flaws could be fixed.

The effects in GT6 were pre-rendered, so no. It all needs to be completely redone to fit in with the changes they have made since.

 

[Eunos_Cosmo]

Actual 1920x1080p resolution, steady 60fps. Proper AA being utilized. A lighting system that isn't pre-rendered. Environments that aren't lined with tree paper.

Many steps backwards.

1080p and 60fps should be utterly standard baseline by now. Even 'proper' AA. GT5 had 1080p and (mostly) 60fps and it had dynamic time & weather. That was SIX years ago on considerably inferior hardware. Also too, GT6 already featured real time lighting.

 

[SlipZtrEm]

The effects in GT6 were pre-rendered, so no. It all needs to be completely redone to fit in with the changes they have made since.

How could dynamic features be pre-rendered?

 

[GTPorsche]

1080p and 60fps should be utterly standard baseline by now. Even 'proper' AA. GT5 had 1080p and (mostly) 60fps and it had dynamic time & weather. That was SIX years ago on considerably inferior hardware. Also too, GT6 already featured real time lighting.

GT5 was 1440x1080, which isn't actual 1080.

How could dynamic features be pre-rendered?

When they aren't real-time. GT6 had it just for lighting on the dynamic tracks. The rain/snow was not so good on 5/6, and it was the same every single time it occurred on every single track it was on.

 

[SlipZtrEm]

When they aren't real-time. GT6 had it just for lighting on the dynamic tracks. The rain/snow was not so good on 5/6, and it was the same every single time it occurred on every single track it was on.

Alright, so we're on the same page that the lighting wasn't pre-rendered on the tracks that had TOD adjustments available. Which brings me to the next question: how are we sure GTS' lighting isn't pre-baked?

 

[ColouredBadger]

Dynamic TOD is very demanding. If it wasn't the case Forza 6 would have it.

Forza Horizon 2 had it. Though, if I remember correctly, Forza 6 doesn't run at 1080p and at 60FPS. Even Assetto Corsa has to limit it's specs to 900p to make it run at 60FPS on the Xbox. The problem with Forza is not Forza itself, but the console it is running on. Which is a shame for that game.

That all takes a ton of processing power, which would kill framerate. With my experience on PC games with just dynamic time, my computer has always taken a massive hit during day/night transitioning.

When GT7 comes around and they still don't have a dynamic time/weather system, then it's time to be concerned by the lack of it. Right now they need to optimize the best they can for the PS4 and VR support. After that they can see if they can push the PS4 further.

It wouldn't take as much to render shadows as changing weather, lighting to reflect that, as well as particle creation and rendering from spray and rain drops. You'd get a much harsher FPS drop with dynamic rain than with time change.
Plus, why don't PD aim to make the game 75FPS and then lock it at 60? Some PC Gamers I know of run games at 100+FPS through more powerful systems than the PS4, so surely building slightly above the cap at 75FPS and then locking at 60 would be better?

Shadows aren't too demanding if using more simple shadows. The problem is however, Polyphony are going for 100% quality this time, and because of that, they can't use the best aesthetic system in the game. They're going to pre-render the stuff to make everything crisp and to lock out FPS for the VR machine so players don't become quite so 'sick' playing.

You used an article from another site that directly links to our article on the front page as the source?



I imagine the calculations required for the shadows is the big hog. Think of a tree-lined track like the 'Ring. With pre-baked shadows, they're simply a part of the track, and how a car interacts with them will be the same no matter what. But with the sun moving across the sky, there are now thousands of variables at play as the shadows change and stretch.

I agree that weather would probably affect FPS more than time, but I can see why the latter still would at some level.



One could argue that VR provides immersion on a level few other features can. As someone that's tried it, I totally see the benefit, but the big issue is cost of entry.

I completely get the immersion of VR, I myself would love to experience it, but it is the price tag, and in some cases, motion sickness problems, that will make the VR very niche. 95% of people probably won't be able to afford VR as well as a good wheel to play GT Sport on, so it's aiming at a very small area of the market and affecting the average players experience in the process. Which is a shame.

Of course. This is based on my opinions of it all.

 

[Johnnypenso]

GT5 was 1440x1080, which isn't actual 1080.

When they aren't real-time. GT6 had it just for lighting on the dynamic tracks. The rain/snow was not so good on 5/6, and it was the same every single time it occurred on every single track it was on.

You mean 1280x1080. GT6 was 1440x1080.

 

[ColouredBadger]

Alright, so we're on the same page that the lighting wasn't pre-rendered on the tracks that had TOD adjustments available. Which brings me to the next question: how are we sure GTS' lighting isn't pre-baked?

Come to think of it. Isn't GT Sport's Time Of Day and Weather adjustable, but locked for racing? I remember reading that you can pre-select Time Of Day and Weather before the race. So surely they have some form of dynamic systems in place, but are pre-locked for the actual gameplay? I'm not 100% sure on this though.

 

[SlipZtrEm]

Forza Horizon 2 had it. Though, if I remember correctly, Forza 6 doesn't run at 1080p and at 60FPS. Even Assetto Corsa has to limit it's specs to 900p to make it run at 60FPS on the Xbox. The problem with Forza is not Forza itself, but the console it is running on. Which is a shame for that game.

Every Forza title on XB1 is full 1080p. FH2 is locked to 30fps though, while FM5 and FM6 are locked to 60.

I completely get the immersion of VR, I myself would love to experience it, but it is the price tag, and in some cases, motion sickness problems, that will make the VR very niche. 95% of people probably won't be able to afford VR as well as a good wheel to play GT Sport on, so it's aiming at a very small area of the market and affecting the average players experience in the process. Which is a shame.

Of course. This is based on my opinions of it all.

Oh, agreed on most fronts. But on the other hand, I feel like the racing genre is ripe for early adopters and/or expensive accessories, more so than just about any other genre, so I completely understand why GTS would be considered as an ambassador for VR.

Come to think of it. Isn't GT Sport's Time Of Day and Weather adjustable, but locked for racing? I remember reading that you can pre-select Time Of Day and Weather before the race. So surely they have some form of dynamic systems in place, but are pre-locked for the actual gameplay? I'm not 100% sure on this though.

I've understood it to be the same as FM6: there will be pre-selected situations, but the user won't be able to set exact levels on their own (say, 4:45PM with a light drizzle).

 

[djm99]

You mean 1280x1080. GT6 was 1440x1080.

GT5 runs a lot better in my opinion

 

[GTPorsche]

Alright, so we're on the same page that the lighting wasn't pre-rendered on the tracks that had TOD adjustments available. Which brings me to the next question: how are we sure GTS' lighting isn't pre-baked?

Guess I made an assumption on that one as it would take less effort for real-time lighting on a static track than it would on a dynamic one. My mistake.

It wouldn't take as much to render shadows as changing weather, lighting to reflect that, as well as particle creation and rendering from spray and rain drops. You'd get a much harsher FPS drop with dynamic rain than with time change.
Plus, why don't PD aim to make the game 75FPS and then lock it at 60? Some PC Gamers I know of run games at 100+FPS through more powerful systems than the PS4, so surely building slightly above the cap at 75FPS and then locking at 60 would be better?

75FPS isn't an option because it doesn't go into 30 evenly. They'd have to aim for 120 as VR needs something divisible by 60 to work right, and that's not possible on the current hardware.

Shadows aren't too demanding if using more simple shadows. The problem is however, Polyphony are going for 100% quality this time, and because of that, they can't use the best aesthetic system in the game. They're going to pre-render the stuff to make everything crisp and to lock out FPS for the VR machine so players don't become quite so 'sick' playing.

Shadows are the most demanding on processing power, which is why the transition to and from night is more demanding than just daytime changes.

GT5 runs a lot better in my opinion

Elaborate, please.

 

[Eunos_Cosmo]

GT5 was 1440x1080, which isn't actual 1080.

When they aren't real-time. GT6 had it just for lighting on the dynamic tracks. The rain/snow was not so good on 5/6, and it was the same every single time it occurred on every single track it was on.

Like anyone could tell the difference.

 

[djm99]

You used an article from another site that directly links to our article on the front page as the source?

HaHa, so i did. I never look on the front page

 

[ColouredBadger]

Every Forza title on XB1 is full 1080p. FH2 is locked to 30fps though, while FM5 and FM6 are locked to 60.

Oh right, okay. I take that statement back. I thought FM5 and FM6 ran at 30FPS.

Oh, agreed on most fronts. But on the other hand, I feel like the racing genre is ripe for early adopters and/or expensive accessories, more so than just about any other genre, so I completely understand why GTS would be considered as an ambassador for VR.

Agreed. If I could afford it, then I'd use VR for racing games. It's the most promising genre for it. That and First Person Shooters for me personally. Battelfield's gameplay would be awesome in VR.

But, until the technology becomes more affordable (which it will, in time) it's a minority expense that only a few will have. If Sony decide to do a £500 package (whatever that is in Dollars) for a PS4 as well as the VR system then they'd sell a few more as a bundle instead of separately.

I've understood it to be the same as FM6: there will be pre-selected situations, but the user won't be able to set exact levels on their own (say, 4:45PM with a light drizzle).

I understood it more as a wheel selection. Like there's an adjustable time scale in-game, but locked on that time point once selected.
However, it might be a blending of the two of our ideas/understandings to create many selections of time, i.e. 6am, 8am, 10am, 12pm, 2pm, 4pm, 6pm, 8pm, 10pm, 12am, 2am, 4am. With selections of 25%, 50%, 75% or 100% Weather. But who knows. We'll have to see further to the time of release, or at least what they show at major game events throughout the year.

 

[GTPorsche]

Like anyone could tell the difference.

It's a difference of 583,200 pixels. Most people would notice a difference in that.

 

[djm99]

@GTPorsche GT6 has a tremendous amount of screen tearing, and on certain tracks a lot of flickering shadows. The whole effect causes me nausea. The trackside trees are poorly detailed compared to GT5 too

It's a difference of 583,200 pixels. Most people would notice a difference in that.

I couldn't, but maybe on a huge TV you would?

 

[ColouredBadger]

75FPS isn't an option because it doesn't go into 30 evenly. They'd have to aim for 120 as VR needs something divisible by 60 to work right, and that's not possible on the current hardware.

FPS scales go in 30, 51, 60, 75, 90, 120 to my understanding. It has nothing to so with multiples of 30. It's multiple of 3 because of old fashioned film and when FPS was first established in the movie industry.
Project Morpheus can reportedly cope with 120 FPS, so a higher level of frames a then locked down to 60 FPS is more than feasible for these games. So basically, my argument is right? Thanks.

Shadows are the most demanding on processing power, which is why the transition to and from night is more demanding than just daytime changes.

I beg to differ. Try rendering movable particles in the same level of processing power that it takes to move a shadows progressively over a period of time. I can run high level, dynamic shadows far better than particle mists/sprays on my simple little laptop. If my simple little laptop can run dynamic shadows with minimal anti-aliasing then I'm sure a PS4 can cope. It's probably a cop-out on PD's half to avoid more work and reaching the release deadline before Sony have them bent over the executives table with metre sticks swinging towards their backsides.