Has GTS with a wheel setup made you a better driver in the real world

[Junkman55]

You base your argument on catching one bit of opposite lock as empirical proof that the game saved you. I base my argument on experiencing some of the worst drivers (me at one time) on the road and coming out of it unscathed. I've got to be doing something right, surely?

I've already conceded that some novice (real life) drivers could benefit from GTS as the theory (like learning to ride a bike) is the same as real driving.

You can get concentration, awareness and reaction improvements from other sources though. You could even argue that honing them with GTS makes them unsuitable for the road as you might react too quickly to maintain control. Something you can get away with in GTS but rare in the real world.

You argue that GTS is a Game not a simulator, can you point to a game in your library other than a racing simulator That can help you in real life To Make decisions to keep you safe In driving a real car ?

 

[Junkman55]

LOL. You clearly misunderstand the point I am making.

LOL. You clearly misunderstand the point I am making.

Do you except that a FFB wheel and pedal upgrade from a DS4 controller changes The online racing experience

 

[wtrain77]

Do you except that a FFB wheel and pedal upgrade from a DS4 controller changes The online racing experience

Yes it does. I started on the original Playstation playing Gran Turismo 2 with controllers. I became competent with controllers. The switch to the G29 on GTS was not easy and is certainly an improvement in creating a sim experience over DS4 controllers. I was merely making the point that the Fanatec wheel improved on the simulated realism over the G29. Since this is a discussion if a wheel with GTS helps you be a better driver, anything that better simulates real life will be of assistance.

Do you have any experience with a G29 or did you jump straight into the T-GT?

 

[Fennario]

This is getting silly...

1. GTS can teach you certain driving skills.
2. FFB wheels are not accurate simulations - they are designed to provide added feedback to make up for lack of actual feedback from tires/chassis/road texture/etc.
3. You can learn the same skills much more quickly and at a higher level by driving/hooning around an empty parking lot.
4. The application of skills learned in GTS on public roads is by and large non existent. If you think that .00001% incident where you caught a slide is due to playing GTS then great; however, don't discount the possibilities that (i) the ESC helped you catch it, and/or (ii) you would have caught it regardless.

 

[wtrain77]

You are certainly entitled to your opinion but an 04 Mazdaspeed Miata does not have ESC or Traction Control.

What is really silly is throwing out random numbers as if it is real data.

Would I have caught it anyways? Maybe. But what I will say is as a young driver, I spun out in my brother's 240sx. I lost control and did a complete 180 from a left turn. Luckily I didn't collide with anything. At the time, I knew nothing about oversteer, understeer, rwd vs fwd, counter-steer, etc. This second time around, I had this knowledge and understanding.

 

[Fennario]

You are certainly entitled to your opinion but an 04 Mazdaspeed Miata does not have ESC or Traction Control.

What is really silly is throwing out random numbers as if it is real data.

Would I have caught it anyways? Maybe. But what I will say is as a young driver, I spun out in my brothers 240sx. I lost control and did a complete 180 from a left turn. Luckily I didn't collide with anything. At the time, I knew nothing about oversteer, understeer, rwd vs fwd, counter-steer, etc. This second time around, I had this knowledge and understanding.

1. ESC has been mandated since 2012 and ABS since 2013. The vast majority of cars people drive are newer than 7 years old. If you are driving one older than that/tuned/etc. then you have a responsibility to know how it handles and reacts under less than ideal circumstances.
2. Re: either of your spins - per point #3 above, some time in a parking lot would have taught you more than GTS... go after a rain if you really want to slide about. If you want to take things further then a performance driving course at your local track would be a good place to start.

 

[wtrain77]

What does modern regulations have to do with this discussion? You said ESC might have saved me. I was merely correcting you this was not the case.

No one is claiming real life experience is not useful. Given the two, of course real life trumps sim each and every single time. The discussion is if GTS with a wheel helps. I don't drive like a maniac on public roads nor do I act like a hooligan in parking lots. The only aggressive on the limit driving I do are on GTS, Project Cars, and Assetto Corsa.

 

[Junkman55]

This is getting silly...

1. GTS can teach you certain driving skills.
2. FFB wheels are not accurate simulations - they are designed to provide added feedback to make up for lack of actual feedback from tires/chassis/road texture/etc.
3. You can learn the same skills much more quickly and at a higher level by driving/hooning around an empty parking lot.
4. The application of skills learned in GTS on public roads is by and large non existent. If you think that .00001% incident where you caught a slide is due to playing GTS then great; however, don't discount the possibilities that (i) the ESC helped you catch it, and/or (ii) you would have caught it regardless.

Reality is always the best teacher. Without it a simulator could not make sense. But the simulator can improve your reaction time to a given set of circumstances that can happen In reality to make you a better driver. Let’s get something straight you play GTS , I Drive GTS you call it a game, I call it a online racing simulator.

 

[kilesa4568]

You argue that GTS is a Game not a simulator, can you point to a game in your library other than a racing simulator That can help you in real life To Make decisions to keep you safe In driving a real car ?

Playing any game, reading a book, even having a good conversation will exercise the same cognitive skills (attention, memory, awareness, learning and reasoning) that you (should) use when you're driving.

 

[Junkman55]

Yes it does. I started on the original Playstation playing Gran Turismo 2 with controllers. I became competent with controllers. The switch to the G29 on GTS was not easy and is certainly an improvement in creating a sim experience over DS4 controllers. I was merely making the point that the Fanatec wheel improved on the simulated realism over the G29. Since this is a discussion if a wheel with GTS helps you be a better driver, anything that better simulates real life will be of assistance.

Do you have any experience with a G29 or did you jump straight into the T-GT?

No experience on a g29 except at a Microsoft store just to try it. My budget and research put me on to thrushmaster started with a T-300RS Add a T3PA-PRO and now a T-GT on a SIMETI’K wheel stand rig. Every thing I did improve my experience with online racing and sharpen my skills in real world driving that is my opinion and what I believe to be true.

 

[Junkman55]

Playing any game, reading a book, even having a good conversation will exercise the same cognitive skills (attention, memory, awareness, learning and reasoning) that you (should) use when you're driving.

What ever you think the poll is 50/50 on the the question so I will give You a half right.

 

[killerjimbag]

No experience on a g29 except at a Microsoft store just to try it. My budget and research put me on to thrushmaster started with a T-300RS Add a T3PA-PRO and now a T-GT on a SIMETI’K wheel stand rig. Every thing I did improve my experience with online racing and sharpen my skills in real world driving that is my opinion and what I believe to be true.

Please. No racing sim/game is the same as a real car. I've been on a wheel since 2003. Played all kinds of sim's.There is no chasis movement,suspension movement, tire flex,etc,etc. Driving a car in real life is not even remotely close to what happens in a video game. Do you think they can replicate my 65 Impala in this or any game? Drum brakes,standard steering and 3 speed on the column? I think not. I would have you screaming like a little girl doing 70 mph out of corner.View media item 11826

 

[kilesa4568]

What ever you think the poll is 50/50 on the the question so I will give You a half right.

That's more than I usually get. I'll take it.

@wtrain77 Now that I've seen you're a young driver, what you've said makes more sense and I might even have said the same things if I had the same amount of experience as you.

Sorry for jumping down your throat but saying you're an A+ driver after mentioning your over steer moment implied you had more experience. Someone with more experience will always question the proof you offered.

Get used to people disagreeing with you and try and keep an open mind about them. I've had my stubborn mind changed many times on this forum. It won't be happening in this thread though.

Note to self: You're 52, not the 51 you said earlier. A good thing you have your DOB in your forum username to remind you.

 

[wtrain77]

That's more than I usually get. I'll take it.

@wtrain77 Now that I've seen you're a young driver, what you've said makes more sense and I might even have said the same things if I had the same amount of experience as you.

Sorry for jumping down your throat but saying you're an A+ driver after mentioning your over steer moment implied you had more experience. Someone with more experience will always question the proof you offered.

Get used to people disagreeing with you and try and keep an open mind about them. I've had my stubborn mind changed many times on this forum. It won't be happening in this thread though.

Note to self: You're 52, not the 51 you said earlier. A good thing you have your DOB in your forum username to remind you.

Against my better judgement to continue ignoring you, I'll bite and respond. I don't care what your opinion is nor do I care about people disagreeing with me. What I do have a problem with are people who debate emotionally and illogically.

Re-read the flow of comments. I was content to share my opinion, the reason why I have it, and move on. Rather than accepting my experience for what it was, you insinuated it wasn't the sim and suggested inertia. Fair enough, like I said earlier, I like to debate.

It was only at this point that I brought up my driver rating because you made it relevant. Being in a GTS forum discussing how it can affect real life driving, GTS is the common thread that unites us. Generally speaking, higher rated drivers have more developed skills and mastery of the GTS physics engine than lower rated drivers. As a result, higher rated drivers may be more likely to have accumulated skills that can potentially make them a better real life driver. You and likely others obviously took it as grandstanding and being boastful. This reflects more on you than it does on me.

If there is a better metric in GTS that gives a quick and easy snapshot of a driver's skill and knowledge within GTS, I am all ears. I say this because your story of putting bags of cement in the back of your jalopies doesn't tell me a damn thing. However, the difference between you and I is I am not arrogant enough to tell you what you learned from that experience. I am not arrogant enough to tell you what you know, don't know, and what you learned from where. You would do well to learn some humility in this regard.

 

[Fennario]

Not trying to get a rise out of you... trying to impart the benefit of real world experience to potentially save you some grief down the road (literally). This comes from over 35 years of real world driving experience and thousands of hours behind the wheel of a variety of performance cars. What those hours and a number of incidents has taught me is that nothing is a substitute for experience and situational awareness is critical.

Where GTS will bite you is with a false sense of security... you've spun twice IRL and recovered once after playing a lot of GTS. From your posts, you give the impression that you have the skills to handle a real car at or near the limit. If there is one thing to take away from this thread is that no-one does by virtue of this game - period. Any belief to the contrary is Kreguer-Dunning at work.

If you think driving around a parking lot is silly...
You will learn more about understeer/oversteer from driving around a parking lot in a circle than from any game
You will learn 1000x more about weight transfer driving around cones in a parking lot
You can learn threshold and trail braking in a parking lot
You can learn how/if/when lift-off oversteer happens.
You can sign up for an autocross course and have more fun/learn more in a parking lot than you realize.

EDIT: The relevance of mandated ESC and ABS is that (i) very few people have any experience at all driving without electronic nannies; (ii) ESC and ABS provide an inflated sense of driving skill and are behind most "saves" - without them our accident/fatality rates would be much much higher; (iii) driving an older performance car or turning the nannies off on a modern car without a strong real-world driving foundation can easily result in tragedy (eg. lift-off oversteer). In short, ESC and ABS : Driving Skill is similar to GTS : real world driving; and if they should ever fail 99.9% of people will have no idea how to save regardless of GTS experience.

 

[wtrain77]

When did I ever claim I can handle a car at the limit in real life? I made no such suggestion. I am not naive enough to believe this. The claim was sim racing made me a better driver because it better prepared me for an unexpected oversteer moment.

 

[Fennario]

Countering unexpected oversteer is handling a car at/beyond the limit.

 

[wtrain77]

Yes, I understand what handling a car beyond the limit means. But don't put words into my mouth. Saying I caught an oversteer moment in my Miata is not the same as claiming I can consistently handle a real life car at its limits. They are not the same claims. You guys tire me out and are making me reconsider how much I like to debate. Gnite.

BTW, you never answered my question about the relevance of modern day regulations with regard to ESC and how it relates to this discussion.

 

[The_Tullster]

While I've earlier stated that this game did little for my real world driving either as a controller user or as a wheel user, that doesn't negate the possibility that it has been of some benefit to some people. There are some arguing that because it's not a faithful replication of every detail of real world driving it's of no benefit at all. If this were true, there wouldn't have been thousands of these made during WW2 for pilot training:

What is true is that going out to drive in the real world with no experience beyond playing in a simulator/game would most likely result in disaster.

This game can help give a basic understanding of some aspects of real world car control, but it is not complete. This game can also help drivers develop an awareness of how important it is to keep track of what's behind and beside as much as it is to keep track of what's in front. It is not a replacement for real world experience, but can enhance some aspects of real world driving skills. It must be remembered that real world skills include much more than just car controls. There's traffic awareness, road rules, driving culture, mechanical awareness (being able to spot when your car is behaving in a way that may indicate an unsafe condition, e.g. flat tyre) and so on. Just because this game is not a 100% faithful representation of real world conditions does not totally preclude it being of some real world benefit to some drivers.

For me there was little real world benefit, but I had many years experience in many different types of vehicle over a wide range of road conditions before coming to race and driving sims. For someone with more limited experience the benefit may be much greater - provided they're aware of the limitations of a simulation of this type.

 

[Trone_Colby]

Actually my real world driving made me better at GT Sport. My wife doesn’t like the way I pull off from red lights in the Jeep. She be like “this aint Gran Turismo!” Lol

 

[Junkman55]

Please. No racing sim/game is the same as a real car. I've been on a wheel since 2003. Played all kinds of sim's.There is no chasis movement,suspension movement, tire flex,etc,etc. Driving a car in real life is not even remotely close to what happens in a video game. Do you think they can replicate my 65 Impala in this or any game? Drum brakes,standard steering and 3 speed on the column? I think not. I would have you screaming like a little girl doing 70 mph out of corner.View media item 11826

Nice car, With you behind the wheel yes I would be screaming like a little girl Over 70 mph with drum brakes. I bet you get a bit of brake fade until you drop your speed down to around 50 mph , be carful my friend a 65 impala Like yours is only a race car on the quarter mile.

 

[killerjimbag]

Nice car, With you behind the wheel yes I would be screaming like a little girl Over 70 mph with drum brakes. I bet you get a bit of brake fade until you drop your speed down to around 50 mph , be carful my friend a 65 impala Like yours is only a race car on the quarter mile.

Dropping it down to 50 mph? You have no idea how a car like that handles. It turns and brakes just fine. It's called "real world driving experience" something a video game will not teach you. It's not a quarter mile car.

 

[kilesa4568]

Against my better judgement to continue ignoring you, I'll bite and respond. I don't care what your opinion is nor do I care about people disagreeing with me. What I do have a problem with are people who debate emotionally and illogically.

Emotionally and illogically? Really? I'd say you've got a much bigger problem with people disagreeing with you than you're admitting.

It was only at this point that I brought up my driver rating because you made it relevant.

GTS and real world driving are in the thread title and I didn't ask what your rating in the game was as it makes no difference on the road. You offered that little tidbit in your second reply as a means of justifying your point all on your own.

Generally speaking, higher rated drivers have more developed skills and mastery of the GTS physics engine than lower rated drivers. As a result, higher rated drivers may be more likely to have accumulated skills that can potentially make them a better real life driver.

You've no idea how bad that sounds.

You and likely others obviously took it as grandstanding and being boastful. This reflects more on you than it does on me.

I (possibly we) didn't take that as boastful. I (we) took it as a stonking great hint that you genuinely don't know what you're talking about. There's a big difference.

If there is a better metric in GTS that gives a quick and easy snapshot of a driver's skill and knowledge within GTS, I am all ears. I say this because your story of putting bags of cement in the back of your jalopies doesn't tell me a damn thing.

For the record, the cement went in the back of (3) 2.8 liter Ford Granada's, Volvo estates (2 of) and 3 (two 2 liters and one 2.8) Ford Capri's. All of them had an uneven weight distribution to the front and were very tail happy in wet and greasy conditions.

However, the difference between you and I is I am not arrogant enough to tell you what you learned from that experience. I am not arrogant enough to tell you what you know, don't know, and what you learned from where. You would do well to learn some humility in this regard.

Wind your neck in before you trip over it?

Passing your driving test allows you to legally drive on the road but the learning doesn't stop there. It's not arrogance saying that, it's experience. Something you're woefully short of, otherwise you wouldn't have backed your proof so strenuously.

I honestly wish you well with your driving but please take the rose coloured GTS specs off when you do it. They don't apply to real driving.

There are some arguing that because it's not a faithful replication of every detail of real world driving it's of no benefit at all. If this were true, there wouldn't have been thousands of these made during WW2 for pilot training:

...and how many flew back after that tragically limited amount of artificial training? I believe it was 6 flying hours in WW I and just 4 weeks in Spitfires. Not a good record.

 

[wtrain77]

LOL. Nice try. Just because you balanced the weight distribution tells no one anything about how well you managed it on the road. If anything, a strong and convincing argument can be made that you didn't learn much because you couldn't handle the rear slipping prior to weighing down the rear.

In addition to the Miata, I also own a BRZ. Both cars come well balanced from the factory. Does this mean I am a better driver just because I drive a balanced car? Of course not. But like I said, I am not going to tell you what you learned from it because I honestly don't know. I am done, I can't keep debating with people who continue to make illogical, unintelligent, and irrelevant points. Have a good day everyone and stay safe.

 

[O604]

💡

 

[Junkman55]

Dropping it down to 50 mph? You have no idea how a car like that handles. It turns and brakes just fine. It's called "real world driving experience" something a video game will not teach you. It's not a quarter mile car.

I guess you have not experienced brake fade it is a common problem with drum brakes on older cars . It can happen when you are Traveling 70 mph and a deer step out in front of you Hit the brakes hard and the car will not slow down the cars feels like no brakes Until your speed drops below 55 mph and your brakes feel normal again. It’s one of the reasons Car company’s are using disc brakes .

 

[kilesa4568]

LOL. Nice try. Just because you balanced the weight distribution tells no one anything about how well you managed it on the road. If anything, a strong and convincing argument can be made that you didn't learn much because you couldn't handle the rear slipping prior to weighing down the rear.

Ask your parents about how older car's handled. You might (if you allow it) learn something.

I can't keep debating with people who continue to make illogical, unintelligent, and irrelevant points.

Ever consider that they're only illogical, unintelligent and irrelevant points when your inexperience makes you ignorant to their meaning?

Don't bother answering. It will only reinforce how little you really know.

 

[wtrain77]

LOL. Sounds like you are arguing emotionally again. Sorry I triggered you for the second time. Don't feel bad or embarrassed, it is a natural reaction to be hyper defensive and emotional when someone points out flaws in your reasoning.

 

[kilesa4568]

 

[Atwork]

You might find out that I'm not alone in saying that.

Have a read of this and tell me if the simcade part reminds you a lot of GTS: https://virtualracingschool.com/aca...-get-started/arcade-vs-simcade-vs-simulators/

Good for you thinking it's a true simulator but you're in for a rude awakening when you try a real one.

Any experience is helpful, while yes, a sim is different than real life, there is still plenty to transfer to rl. Granted my actual car in rl feels nothing like my car in game, but that does not mean you do no learn something from even simcade type games. You can learn the ins and outs of driving. Breaking before the turn, not while you you are turning is a simple thing that many average drivers just don't do. Many teams use something like rfactor 2 as a base for their sim, they feel there is some transfer to rl If one has never thrown there car sideways in rl, I would think after handling those types of situations in game it will better prepare you for rl. I say 100 percent that you learn something from the game. What you get from the game will vary, you may learn bad habits as well. How useful the information is all depends on your temperment, what gear you have and other factors. Here in the states the driving test is so basic. A country like Finland, well you get to experience all conditions and many types of situations, so perhaps there you have more rl experiences to draw from. If I am going around a sharp bend and there is a kid in front of me about to lose control, ill take the kid who put hours in to the sim over a kid who has not.