Motorcycles in GT6?

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There's not really a huge variety out there. There are some but they are really specialized.

This is true. A separate game would be pointless for the reasons stated here. So it is more likely to be DLC, having car dealerships with the bikes in will entice customers more than an ad on the TV.
 
This is true. A separate game would be pointless for the reasons stated here. So it is more likely to be DLC, having car dealerships with the bikes in will entice customers more than an ad on the TV.

Ok, let me expand a little on my first comment. I don’t disagree that bikes would be a good feature to accommodate the masses and offer more options for the GT world, but I think that the car driving part of GT needs to be at a better level before PD switch focus to added more areas. That is unless GT 6 is what everyone is asking for. Then of course it would be feasible to add another string to their bow.
 
The problem with that is the definition of "right" will vary wildly, and bikes have already come from PD Towers with the cars far less right than they are now.

I still don't get the negativity towards hybriding, that actually sounds pretty fun (plus there actually is a V12 motorcycle, or two, or three). Gotta have someone to hate, I suppose...
 
Bring on the bikes I say. The TT bikes looked pretty good and I'd be happy with only a handful of new ones if they offered the lot in one DLC. I'd even be happy with some Bike vs Car racing
 
I think some bike Vs car racing would be a lot of fun, I currently do it with cars Vs karts and it's a blast 👍

Not only could PD potentially please both car and bike enthiusiasts alike, but I imagine the online drag racing scene would love this possibility. I'm not into tunnel runs on SSR7, but even I would love to give it go.

From a business point of view though, having two seperate games is likely to generate more profit.
 
I don't think we'll see bikes in GT6, even as DLC, but it would be nice if GT7 had a slice of TT in it. 👍
 
I don't think we'll see bikes in GT6, even as DLC, but it would be nice if GT7 had a slice of TT in it. 👍

That's true. And hopefully they'll look a little more realistic, with higher FPS.
 
Simple fact of the matter is for PD to do this it needs to be financially viable and looking at sales of motorbike games it just won't be. Bike games just don't sell in big numbers. The Moto GP games have never been big sellers and PDs own game barely made a dent.

Now you can come up with many reasons for that and some of them are probably very valid but PD and the bean counters have to go by the numbers and based on the above taking time to add bikes to GT6 from the start wouldn't be worth their time. Sure some of the 10 million car enthusiasts might also enjoy bikes but that doesn't get them any extra money for their work, they were buying the game anyway. What they need from bike content are new buyers, people that wouldn't buy it otherwise and based on available figures the bike guys just aren't out there in big enough numbers.

DLC is possible because then all the 10m car guys might fancy a purchase but putting time and money into making GT a car and bike game? Doesn't seem worth it based on the market for bike games.
 
2 KTM's one with 2 wheels and 1 with 4.

Bikes is an easy and cheap implementation in GT. PD already have a stack of bikes modeled from TT, bikes which actually looked fantastic and would not look graphically out of place on as PS3 as some standard cars do. I would easily pay £20 for a bike pack, hell I would pay 5 times at the chance to compare my bike hot laps with my car.

You car guys need to stop thinking that bikes in GT will some how mean less stuff for you.

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Simple fact of the matter is for PD to do this it needs to be financially viable and looking at sales of motorbike games it just won't be. Bike games just don't sell in big numbers. The Moto GP games have never been big sellers and PDs own game barely made a dent.

Now you can come up with many reasons for that and some of them are probably very valid but PD and the bean counters have to go by the numbers and based on the above taking time to add bikes to GT6 from the start wouldn't be worth their time. Sure some of the 10 million car enthusiasts might also enjoy bikes but that doesn't get them any extra money for their work, they were buying the game anyway. What they need from bike content are new buyers, people that wouldn't buy it otherwise and based on available figures the bike guys just aren't out there in big enough numbers.

DLC is possible because then all the 10m car guys might fancy a purchase but putting time and money into making GT a car and bike game? Doesn't seem worth it based on the market for bike games.

Ofcourse this is true unfortunately, the original TT was more of a pet project by a team of dedicated bike mad PD employees given the go ahead by Kaz who himself admitted not being into bikes at all (so if they hadn't persisted, PD or Kaz most likely wouldn't have even considered it).
I guess they tried to do to bike games in general what the original GT did to the car racing genre, in the impact it caused and if the sales would've even approached that of a GT game I'm betting we'd already been able to play TT2 as it might've lead to an extension of the modelling team a long time ago, one part being constantly modelling bikes.

The bike racing genre in general is indeed (and will probably always remain) a niche not helped by the fact that a lot of real life bikers who do play games like GT simply don't think the bike riding experience can ever be convincingly replicated in any videogame (by the nature of the concept).
And I'd love to pick up another bike game if the physics were approaching those of TT (despite its flaws) which so far I haven't found, and even if they did, it wouldn't be a full replacement as TT is to games like MotoGP or SBK what GT is to F1 2013 for example, as it offered a whole spectrum of different bikes (the majority roadbikes, and a lot not being of the high-performance kind, it even included scooters for example).

It also centred mostly on the Japanese bikes (in this case perhaps more rightfully so than in GT as the Japanese really dominated the bike market for decades) which sort of makes me wonder if the addition of bikes could be considered worthwhile (financially) from a marketing/promo perspective despite being a niche, with brands like Honda, Suzuki and BMW (and now KTM which still is predominantly a bike manufacturer, nevermind the fact Ducati is now owned by Audi) perhaps more than willing to introduce their bike models as well to a new audience/generation they otherwise wouldn't be able to reach that easily.
And which is something those other bike games (mostly centred on a specific racing series) won't be able to do either.
 
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Simple fact of the matter is for PD to do this it needs to be financially viable and looking at sales of motorbike games it just won't be. Bike games just don't sell in big numbers. The Moto GP games have never been big sellers and PDs own game barely made a dent.

Now you can come up with many reasons for that and some of them are probably very valid but PD and the bean counters have to go by the numbers and based on the above taking time to add bikes to GT6 from the start wouldn't be worth their time. Sure some of the 10 million car enthusiasts might also enjoy bikes but that doesn't get them any extra money for their work, they were buying the game anyway. What they need from bike content are new buyers, people that wouldn't buy it otherwise and based on available figures the bike guys just aren't out there in big enough numbers.

DLC is possible because then all the 10m car guys might fancy a purchase but putting time and money into making GT a car and bike game? Doesn't seem worth it based on the market for bike games.

Car games used to be niche, too. At least, the ones with some kind of sim pretence did. Now, even casual racing games are lampooned for not being realistic enough, even by non-enthusiasts!

In my mind, the main problem is the car / bike people schism, always has been, and always will be. Plus, bikers are generally demonised by the general population more than car drivers are (rightly or wrongly, not the point), so there is no real positive image for bikes in the general casual-player market (if we're talking beans to be counted, this is where the lion's share is, not the enthusiasts at all).

TT might also have been foiled by being a bike game made by "car people" - instant turn-off to a "core" (to use the games industry's slang platitude) group of extremist bikers? Probably sounds silly, but who knows?

If money is the only issue, we'd be in a pretty good place, but I suspect it's these narrow-minded subsets of larger groups that are going to be very vocal should bikes actually appear in GT6, and if Percy Pursestrings has any fear for possible repercussions from that, then it's only ever going to be a tragic end to the idea.


It should be pretty obvious that I think they should include bikes. Screw the "established" zealots (who wants idiots for customers, anyway? :p), and cultivate an ecosystem of interdisciplinary gamers instead. Thankfully, it seems Kaz has a bit of sway when it comes to money matters, and he's only ever seemed keen on pursuing bikes further. A game like Gran Turismo is perfectly placed to start that transcension of the disciplinary schism, and finally bring peace to the world. Maybe.
 
Plus, bikers are generally demonised by the general population more than car drivers are (rightly or wrongly, not the point), so there is no real positive image for bikes in the general casual-player market

Although I get what you're trying to say I doubt that's the reason, people who randomly shoot in the streets aren't in general being regarded as offering a positive contribution to society either yet doing it in a videogame (GTA for example) is attracting a huge audience. ;)
 
Although I get what you're trying to say I doubt that's the reason, people who randomly shoot in the streets aren't in general being regarded as offering a positive contribution to society either yet doing it in a videogame (GTA for example) is attracting a huge audience. ;)

Hmm, I'm not sure I really meant it like that (although I've actually forgotten precisely what I did mean). It's something to do with biking games not being popular in and of themselves, and that bikers in general aren't "popular" either, so there's no incentive for ("serious") biking games to become popular.

On the other hand, shooters already are popular (via some mechanism that I was never really witness to), as are car games (ditto). In both of those genres, though, there is the sense of the "core" group (bickering over and failing to agree upon yet still) dictating the "necessary" features and tone of the game, with some portion of the "casual" group aspiring to that in some way - hence the current clamour for absolute realism in every racing game, whether it's relevant or not. Obviously, the more successful games are those that give the impression that you're hardcore without you having to invest much time or effort to actually "achieve" that (hence trophies / achievements etc. as "recognition"), because that experience is valuable to the vast majority of players. But that's a different matter...
Anyway, that "aspiration" is missing in the general gaming populace for motorbikes, for whatever reason - part of it might be that casual players just don't aspire to like bikes like bikers do. Maybe it's just not very cool, I don't know. But I fail to see how that should be an inherent function of the bikes themselves and not simply a reflection of the cultures at play, and cultures, of course, are far from fixed.


Then there's the matter of tone of the game; Road Rash was a resounding and popular success, and is probably to the likes of a bike sim what a Duke Nukem is to a military sim, or GTA is to one of those city driving almost-games. The fact that you have to take it seriously, to some extent, implies a kind of respect for the subject matter, rather than being "just" a setting for unique and interesting possibilities - although a playable parody like GTA blurs the lines there a bit (not that all players would necessarily notice that.)

I don't think Road Rash demanded respect for bikers or for road safety etc., and neither did Carmageddon for cars or pedestrian safety, because they were just silly, deliberately provocative fantasies, as is GTA (and I love them all dearly for it). To use the popularity of Carmageddon as a barometer for the general public's attitudes towards road safety might be less than wise, of course, so we are agreed on that.


However, this is where GT was so successful, in that it combined a respect for the subject matter with this kind of playful gameyness (that is possibly less apparent in recent iterations than it used to be) and kind of continued the birth of the semi-sim car driving game, and bridging the "coolness gap" to the sims which are so in demand now. Adding bikes to GT, as a separate add-on (with some actual visibility this time), could well do the same for bikes.

Additionally, whilst TT was no real commercial success (it was seemingly never really treated by PD as though it was expected, or even required to be), the fact that those who played it thought very much that it was something to be expanded upon must speak volumes. After all, it seems to me that it's those games that offer truly compelling gameplay that cause the "core" group to reform their expectations, which then filter down to other groups as above.
For instance, being a PC sim racer at the time, I didn't think much of GT when it came out; that is until I actually played it (and the lack of any real "sim" driving aspects weren't really that important in light of the overall concept of the game, which was so fresh - of course, I'd still prefer that "concept" in a sim framework.)
Arguably, in that sense, bikes deserve more attention than cars, since, if we're to believe GT's detractors, it has become stale in recent years. ;)
 
Almighty Griffith500. Praise him!

You're never ceasing to amaze me...



Thanks for that "Course Maker" response by the way. It was exactly what I was looking for. *fingers crossed*
 
Maybe it's just not very cool, I don't know. But I fail to see how that should be an inherent function of the bikes themselves and not simply a reflection of the cultures at play, and cultures, of course, are far from fixed.

Completely agree (as I did with almost everything you wrote by the way) although to some degree the same can be said of cars, as whilst it seems almost a requirement to be sniffy about those who are passionate about cars in some circles it's perfectly acceptable on the other hand to enjoy cars in videogames, preferably if it's just a pick up and play arcade one as a smartphone app (possibly to show off what that smartphone is capable of if nothing more ;)).

Additionally, whilst TT was no real commercial success (it was seemingly never really treated by PD as though it was expected, or even required to be), the fact that those who played it thought very much that it was something to be expanded upon must speak volumes.

I just thought about the lack of sales and what could've caused it other than for all the reasons you mentioned and then it hit me.
Tourist Trophy was released in 2006, guess what else was released in that year? Yep, the PS3.
So could it simply be a case of bad timing perhaps combined with no backward compatibility for PS2 games being the final nail in its coffin?
That isn't the same as the current GT6 situation ofcourse, but a new concept like a GT for bikes which TT was requires some time to grow and for people to become aware of.
Maybe if they'd released a bike game shortly after GT3 we'd perhaps be having a completely different discussion (and in another forum section).
 
Please No motorcycles.
Gran Turismo 5 already misses some focus with a bit of rally, a bit of Karting and at the end the time, money and energy spent by PD on those aspects of the game were missing from the core game.
Polyphony should better focus Gran Turismo on what it should be and if they want or have time, they can also produce rally, karting or motorcycles games in addition to that.
 
Please No motorcycles.
Gran Turismo 5 already misses some focus with a bit of rally, a bit of Karting and at the end the time, money and energy spent by PD on those aspects of the game were missing from the core game.
Polyphony should better focus Gran Turismo on what it should be and if they want or have time, they can also produce rally, karting or motorcycles games in addition to that.

The rally game would flop, as there is also a dedicated WRC series which more would choose. A separate karting game would be just as bad. A newer TT would be okay. Just not a huge profit maker. All in one is better. And how did WRC/Karting take away from the core game? That's like saying the Ferrari F1 cars did... Except the Karts and WRCs are more useful.
 
Good news is that there would be little issue with licensing agreements. GT5 already had Suzuki, Honda, BMW, Audi (currently owns Ducati), Triumph, and I see KTM is on board for GT6. That would be enough bike manufacturers for a great start.
 
Not a big bike fan but I loved TT.
I think they should test the waters again with some bike DLC. After the game comes out have a bike pack with 4-8 or so. If it's successful build on that.
Would love to see bikes and cars together on track but I know some would hate the idea so add a way to filter out their use if the host wants.
 
Don't see any reason other than compulsive purism why bikes shouldn't be in GT6. Variety in the vehicle lineup is always good.

This, and before anyone says again 'buy a bike game if you want to ride bikes', can they please show me a bike game that has this much variety in their bike list?
I'm also curious if a lot of those who oppose bikes are actually aware of that variety or just assume it only included fast superbikes (which is what's often only included in those arcade racers which both include cars and bikes).
 
It worked well in Project Gotham, Midnight Club, and Burnout. I don't see anything but added fun for bikes to be included in GT6 or future GT title.

Apart from few potential sales, another TT would simply be a copy and paste of GT with the same tracks and menu layout as TT was to GT4. People who thinks adding bikes to GT being a waste of resource needs to realize a dedicated TT game would even take more resource away from the main game. Selling it at a full retail price for those that already have the actual GT game is a also waste. DLC would be the better solution. Better yet, already included in the game, in my opinion.
 
I'm sure PD would never turn it into some Project Gotham nonsense, apart from perhaps a couple of Special Events bikes and cars would never feature on the same track in single player, and I approve of that.
Variety is the key word though. When you aren't the owner of a vehicle, when the vehicle does not exist, when it is a digital imitation of the real thing, having the actual real car is worth very little. What matters in sims is that you have a broad variety of configuration. All sorts of layouts with all sorts of engines, all sorts of sizes for all sorts of purposes and from all sorts of eras.

There are not many empty holes in the GT6 car line up. For me adding new cars that duplicate existing cars' specs is worthless. (I'd much rather have a 50s F1 car than a 2013 F1 car since the F10 is close enough).

So bikes are good :)
DLC bikes please!
 
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