Possible new bug: blinking braking indicator

[Leggacy]

I have a feeling that this happened to me once, in the minis at Suzuka east, completely unintentionally. I couldn’t work out why I was so much faster than the rest, I think I was around 5 seconds clear of the pack by the end. I don’t usually use ABS but I use it sometimes depending on the car. I must have used the pad for something ( I have a t500, it doesn’t work in the PS menus or for typing text) and put it on the floor with just the right amount of trigger pull to activate the glitch. I hope they fix this.

 

[Sander 001]

I did a bunch of Sport mode races, checked replays and didn't find anybody using this glitch. At least it's not prevalent

 

[ARTAsean]

I did a bunch of Sport mode races, checked replays and didn't find anybody using this glitch. At least it's not prevalent

It never was that prevalent to begin with. Only wheel users could do it anyway, we are talking about a fraction of a subset of players.

 

[fastone371]

I can't see how anyone could think it won't help much in a race, I mean if anything it'll be an even bigger benefit in the race. One of the most important things if you are battling other cars is how fast you can go on any longish straight, this glitch gives anyone doing it a free boost in power, how can that not be a massive unfair advantage.

At least in qualifying you might be able to out drive someone doing this, although that depends on how good the cheater would be otherwise and how good you are but come race time this extra boost along with the slipstream is going to give them a great chance of sticking with you even if they are not quick enough to pass you, that's hardly fair for the real fast guy or for the other runners wondering how the guy in front keeps blasting away on the straights.

During a race there is traffic, you can lose that full 5 second advantage in just 1 lap if someone blocks you on the straight or if you get stuck behind 2 slower cars at corner entry or if heaven forbid someone bumps you into the kitty litter.

 

[ASH32]

During a race there is traffic, you can lose that full 5 second advantage in just 1 lap if someone blocks you on the straight or if you get stuck behind 2 slower cars at corner entry or if heaven forbid someone bumps you into the kitty litter.

That applies to everyone though and is not really relevant. The cheater always has a car that is potentially much faster on a straight and it's far easier for them to overtake cars, even ones trying to block, than it would be for the average guy because of this. It doesn't mean a cheater will definitely win but it doesn't mean they don't have an advantage either and the longer the race the bigger that gets.

Also if it's a lower rated driver doing this then it's likely they'll be the ones holding everyone up in the corners before driving away down the straights. Their pace advantage could be because they are slowing everyone else down unnaturally without much chance of being overtaken, as much as it could be because they've got a car that's capable of lapping faster than any non ABS exploit car which then sees them drive off into the distance.

 

[Leo Thorne]

I’m somewhat relieved to find out that this isn’t only happening to me.

I was about ready to take apart my pedals and clean the potentiometers.

 

[vvise]

I took my pedals apart on the weekend to fix a bad accelerator potentiometer, and yesterday in the Daily C I realized that now my brake is really sensitive and occasionally just the weight of my foot is enough to make the ABS flicker, sometimes...

Timing couldn't be worse, waiting for someone to accuse me of cheating

 

[ASH32]

I took my pedals apart on the weekend to fix a bad accelerator potentiometer, and yesterday in the Daily C I realized that now my brake is really sensitive and occasionally just the weight of my foot is enough to make the ABS flicker, sometimes...

Timing couldn't be worse, waiting for someone to accuse me of cheating

Well if they do they are not looking properly. When people do this the ABS light does not flicker occasionally, it's constant, basically the only time it's not flickering is when it's fully on. It's very obvious when someone is doing it, that's why most of them will hide their replays if they make it on to the leaderboard.

 

[Novalee]

Pd should look at making all replays stay up. Then if trends arise from exploits , the video evidence will be there to see .

 

[simsimsheree]

I think we better hunker down and accept this the way it is, for now. This, I think, is going to be a tough one for PD to fix, because it goes back to the core way that ABS is coded. I rather doubt a wider deadzone on brake input will easily fix this. The core idea that slightly dragging brakes makes you faster shows something fundamentally wrong with the code.

I hate to say it at this stage of the game, but with the emphasis on esports, with performance and fairness becoming more and more important to the game's players, spending all that time and effort on the lighting system and far too little on the physics, tires and input controls (that stupid non-linear throttle issue would have been fixed LONG ago if PD cared) is coming back to bite PD in the 🤬

 

[fastone371]

I think we better hunker down and accept this the way it is, for now. This, I think, is going to be a tough one for PD to fix, because it goes back to the core way that ABS is coded. I rather doubt a wider deadzone on brake input will easily fix this. The core idea that slightly dragging brakes makes you faster shows something fundamentally wrong with the code.

I hate to say it at this stage of the game, but with the emphasis on esports, with performance and fairness becoming more and more important to the game's players, spending all that time and effort on the lighting system and far too little on the physics, tires and input controls (that stupid non-linear throttle issue would have been fixed LONG ago if PD cared) is coming back to bite PD in the 🤬

BRAVO!!!!
Exactly, it would have been nice if PD's main focus had been on getting the racing part proper then worry about the pretty.

 

[LeGeNd-1]

What would everyone's theory be on why ABS makes you faster?

My thought is that instead of simulating ABS properly (quick series of on-off brakes), PD just applies full brakes and intermittently spins the driven wheels to avoid complete lockup. So when you use the glitch triggering ABS without any braking force, you're essentially gaining free intermittent acceleration!

 

[ARTAsean]

What would everyone's theory be on why ABS makes you faster?

My thought is that instead of simulating ABS properly (quick series of on-off brakes), PD just applies full brakes and intermittently spins the driven wheels to avoid complete lockup. So when you use the glitch triggering ABS without any braking force, you're essentially gaining free intermittent acceleration!

For the longest time I've been saying that the ABS system in gts is OP and gives far too much control under full braking. It makes sense now that the car is seemingly on a completely different handling model when ABS is activated. Also makes sense that ABS off is nowhere near as fast as ABS on, which shouldn't be the case.

At first I just assumed that ABS was programmed to activate at the extreme limit of grip and thus was unachievable by a human using ABS off. Now I know it's because the car is put under the effects of some mysterio magic carpet ride.

As for how the hell ABS gives you better acceleration and top speed? I cannot even speculate. Maybe there is a multiplier that PD uses to alter braking distances that isn't related to grip and braking force, but friction. Less friction to decrease braking distance also improves acceleration?

 

[O604]

My theory is it was supposed to be a secret cheat (like up,down.up,down,l,r,etc...) built by the developers so they could beat their friends.

 

[fastone371]

For the longest time I've been saying that the ABS system in gts is OP and gives far too much control under full braking. It makes sense now that the car is seemingly on a completely different handling model when ABS is activated. Also makes sense that ABS off is nowhere near as fast as ABS on, which shouldn't be the case.

At first I just assumed that ABS was programmed to activate at the extreme limit of grip and thus was unachievable by a human using ABS off. Now I know it's because the car is put under the effects of some mysterio magic carpet ride.

As for how the hell ABS gives you better acceleration and top speed? I cannot even speculate. Maybe there is a multiplier that PD uses to alter braking distances that isn't related to grip and braking force, but friction. Less friction to decrease braking distance also improves acceleration?

I was playing around in Race A this week in qualifying trying to improve my time without cheating, in very few laps I was running laps almost as fast with no ABS as I was with ABS on default. I think if you spend some time setting up proper brake pressure and balance you can be just as fast if not faster with no ABS but I am guessing you need an adjustable load cell pedal to do this. The other problem with not using ABS is that you would need to have settings for each different car, it would be a lot of work.

 

[Sander 001]

I think we better hunker down and accept this the way it is, for now. This, I think, is going to be a tough one for PD to fix, because it goes back to the core way that ABS is coded. I rather doubt a wider deadzone on brake input will easily fix this. The core idea that slightly dragging brakes makes you faster shows something fundamentally wrong with the code.

I hate to say it at this stage of the game, but with the emphasis on esports, with performance and fairness becoming more and more important to the game's players, spending all that time and effort on the lighting system and far too little on the physics, tires and input controls (that stupid non-linear throttle issue would have been fixed LONG ago if PD cared) is coming back to bite PD in the 🤬

Can’t they do something like have the ABS activate half way through braking input?

 

[ROCKET JOE]

I'm by no means an expert in car physics, so my explanation turned out to be simpler than those above. My idea was that ABS lifts the car to a certain level of grip and stability. That's why different cars benefit differently from the exploit. More grip is another factor to keep wheels rolling under braking, isn't it.
The ABS Minis on Suzuka were quicker basically everywhere, not only on the straight, and they could do things like quick moves that were impossible for others without a big loss of traction. Higher straightline speeds were due to better corner exits.
As for @praiano63 's test on Fuji, there might have been a bit more wheelspin without ABS when he started to accelerate.

... Less friction to decrease braking distance also improves acceleration?

I don't understand this ... would you mind to explain ?

 

[praiano63]

I'm by no means an expert in car physics, so my explanation turned out to be simpler than those above. My idea was that ABS lifts the car to a certain level of grip and stability. That's why different cars benefit differently from the exploit. More grip is another factor to keep wheels rolling under braking, isn't it.
The ABS Minis on Suzuka were quicker basically everywhere, not only on the straight, and they could do things like quick moves that were impossible for others without a big loss of traction. Higher straightline speeds were due to better corner exits.
As for @praiano63 's test on Fuji, there might have been a bit more wheelspin without ABS when he started to accelerate.



I don't understand this ... would you mind to explain ?

ABS is not traction control , there were no difference between the 2 test , i was hitting the limiter in first gear and when engage 2d gear at the exact same place, no spinning at all in both case.
Anyway , in my opinion you can't think about this considering how mechanics parts can interfere between each others in real life , this is just a numeric coding bug .
Just my two cents.

 

[ROCKET JOE]

ABS is not traction control , ...

True, of course. My thought was, if grip level gets artificially enhanced as soon as ABS is triggered, you will also have less wheelspin while accelerating. And even the least bit of a difference can make a gap of a couple of meters down Fuji straight.

 

[LeGeNd-1]

For the longest time I've been saying that the ABS system in gts is OP and gives far too much control under full braking. It makes sense now that the car is seemingly on a completely different handling model when ABS is activated. Also makes sense that ABS off is nowhere near as fast as ABS on, which shouldn't be the case.

At first I just assumed that ABS was programmed to activate at the extreme limit of grip and thus was unachievable by a human using ABS off. Now I know it's because the car is put under the effects of some mysterio magic carpet ride.

As for how the hell ABS gives you better acceleration and top speed? I cannot even speculate. Maybe there is a multiplier that PD uses to alter braking distances that isn't related to grip and braking force, but friction. Less friction to decrease braking distance also improves acceleration?

Yes ABS in GT land also includes a godlike EBD. The added stability could explain why the Mini at Suzuka was faster, but not the straightline testing with the Scirocco on the first page of the thread.

I was playing around in Race A this week in qualifying trying to improve my time without cheating, in very few laps I was running laps almost as fast with no ABS as I was with ABS on default. I think if you spend some time setting up proper brake pressure and balance you can be just as fast if not faster with no ABS but I am guessing you need an adjustable load cell pedal to do this. The other problem with not using ABS is that you would need to have settings for each different car, it would be a lot of work.

If you went faster with no ABS then you're probably still leaving time on the table with ABS. There's a reason none of the top leaderboard aliens use no ABS.

ABS off is so much better in GT6 than GTS. ABS off couple with the extremely limited brake balance adjustment in GTS is just a recipe for disaster unless you're driving at 10%.

I'm by no means an expert in car physics, so my explanation turned out to be simpler than those above. My idea was that ABS lifts the car to a certain level of grip and stability. That's why different cars benefit differently from the exploit. More grip is another factor to keep wheels rolling under braking, isn't it.
The ABS Minis on Suzuka were quicker basically everywhere, not only on the straight, and they could do things like quick moves that were impossible for others without a big loss of traction. Higher straightline speeds were due to better corner exits.
As for @praiano63 's test on Fuji, there might have been a bit more wheelspin without ABS when he started to accelerate.

Again, higher grip and stability would explain how the Mini at Suzuka were faster, but not the straightline speed boost. Acceleration at high speeds where traction is no longer a factor is no dependent on grip, just power + aero. Unless PD physics is even wonkier than I imagine possible :S

 

[fastone371]

If you went faster with no ABS then you're probably still leaving time on the table with ABS. There's a reason none of the top leaderboard aliens use no ABS.

ABS off is so much better in GT6 than GTS. ABS off couple with the extremely limited brake balance adjustment in GTS is just a recipe for disaster unless you're driving at 10%:S

There is no doubt I am leaving time on the table, I am not an alien. On the other hand I highly doubt that I am losing all of my time in the braking zones, when you work it out I am about a tenth off the top of the leader in each corner in race A qualifying. Especially considering the way the Z drives in race A with SH I am sure there is plenty to make up in apex and corner exit speed besides just braking zones. It also stands to reason if I lose time with ABS on that I would also be losing time with ABS off in braking zones. That still does not mean my point about ABS off being just as fast or maybe even faster than ABS default when set up properly is not valid.

 

[LeGeNd-1]

There is no doubt I am leaving time on the table, I am not an alien. On the other hand I highly doubt that I am losing all of my time in the braking zones, when you work it out I am about a tenth off the top of the leader in each corner in race A qualifying. Especially considering the way the Z drives in race A with SH I am sure there is plenty to make up in apex and corner exit speed besides just braking zones. It also stands to reason if I lose time with ABS on that I would also be losing time with ABS off in braking zones. That still does not mean my point about ABS off being just as fast or maybe even faster than ABS default when set up properly is not valid.

If you're not opposed to it, CSA can help with the stability and on throttle issues with the Z.

I'm not saying that ABS off when setup properly can't be as fast as ABS on. In other sims and in GT6 I drive with ABS off all the time and not feel disadvantaged. But in GT Sport specifically, the threshold for ABS off lockup is just too soon and unpredictable. Coupled with the non linear pedals and limited brake balance adjustment (single axis as opposed to previous GT where you can adjust front/rear separately), means you're always going to be driving with a larger margin of error with ABS off than on. And in close online races, the added unpredictability is always going to be a disadvantage. The Fugu Z might be mitigated in this respect because it has quite weak brakes anyway, so not using full braking power with ABS off might be equal to full power ABS on.

If you can drive the Z equally with ABS on/off, then more power to you. I respect your skill. But for 99.99% players and situations in GTS, the benefits of ABS is just too overwhelming because of how poorly simulated brake lockup is in this game.


Anyway, back on topic. I've changed my welcome message to each race as "PD pls fix ABS glitch" for the past week now, but no one seems to take notice. Could be the Oceania region is too small a sample, or people just never read these messages. I was hoping that the problem will become more widespread so it forces PD to take notice, but if it isn't working I might just remove the message entirely and leave the glitch to those select few who knows and not perpetuate it.

 

[fastone371]

If you're not opposed to it, CSA can help with the stability and on throttle issues with the Z.

I'm not saying that ABS off when setup properly can't be as fast as ABS on. In other sims and in GT6 I drive with ABS off all the time and not feel disadvantaged. But in GT Sport specifically, the threshold for ABS off lockup is just too soon and unpredictable. Coupled with the non linear pedals and limited brake balance adjustment (single axis as opposed to previous GT where you can adjust front/rear separately), means you're always going to be driving with a larger margin of error with ABS off than on. And in close online races, the added unpredictability is always going to be a disadvantage. The Fugu Z might be mitigated in this respect because it has quite weak brakes anyway, so not using full braking power with ABS off might be equal to full power ABS on.

If you can drive the Z equally with ABS on/off, then more power to you. I respect your skill. But for 99.99% players and situations in GTS, the benefits of ABS is just too overwhelming because of how poorly simulated brake lockup is in this game.


Anyway, back on topic. I've changed my welcome message to each race as "PD pls fix ABS glitch" for the past week now, but no one seems to take notice. Could be the Oceania region is too small a sample, or people just never read these messages. I was hoping that the problem will become more widespread so it forces PD to take notice, but if it isn't working I might just remove the message entirely and leave the glitch to those select few who knows and not perpetuate it.

I appreciate the compliment but it is not my skill that allows me to drive without ABS but rather the Fanatec V3 load cell pedals. You explained the reason perfectly with this "single axis as opposed to previous GT where you can adjust front/rear separately" which explains why I am able to do it. There is front/rear balance in game and on the wheel menu total brake pressure is adjustable in percentage from 100% (little pedal effort) to 10% (great pedal effort) Thank you for the explanation and have a good one!

 

[Hoopzah]

How is that even a sensible theory? That wouldn't happen because of basic energy principles, with kinetic energy slowing the car.

It's actually thermal energy slowing the car. The brakes abosorb the kinetic energy transmuting it into thermal energy then releasing it.

But... I aggree. He's arguing semantics. It's a bug/ exploit and above all- CHEAT.

 

[LeGeNd-1]

I appreciate the compliment but it is not my skill that allows me to drive without ABS but rather the Fanatec V3 load cell pedals. You explained the reason perfectly with this "single axis as opposed to previous GT where you can adjust front/rear separately" which explains why I am able to do it. There is front/rear balance in game and on the wheel menu total brake pressure is adjustable in percentage from 100% (little pedal effort) to 10% (great pedal effort) Thank you for the explanation and have a good one!

Well that explains everything Load cell sure does change the game significantly. I can only hope to modulate that accurately with my G25 pedals. Still it takes considerably more skill though so my original assessment still stands 👍

 

[TT92]

It's a bug/ exploit and above all- CHEAT.

NO! it is bad coding and a PD problem.

 

[ARTAsean]

NO! it is bad coding and a PD problem.

Well, one could argue a bad coding and a PD problem becomes a cheat once people start using it to their advantage.

 

[Novalee]

Which for fixing these type of things PD is one of slowest devs i have seen yet.

They could disable abs for now until a better fix is found .

 

[TT92]

Well, one could argue a bad coding and a PD problem becomes a cheat once people start using it to their advantage.

I will repeat myself, the game is full of "cheats" and examples of bad coding. What about all the corner cutters that abuse the track limits? They are exploiting bad coding and poor track limit detection to gain an advantage? Or tapping other cars so that they cop the penalty in the "flawed" penalty system? Don't even start me a "wall riders"!

You cannot point out one piece of bad coding in this game and only label those people using it "cheats" while turning a blind eye to all the other exploits (cheats!).

BTW Since I personally do not "cheat" I have stopped racing in sport mode.

 

[Woodybobs]

I will repeat myself, the game is full of "cheats" and examples of bad coding. What about all the corner cutters that abuse the track limits? They are exploiting bad coding and poor track limit detection to gain an advantage? Or tapping other cars so that they cop the penalty in the "flawed" penalty system? Don't even start me a "wall riders"!

You cannot point out one piece of bad coding in this game and only label those people using it "cheats" while turning a blind eye to all the other exploits (cheats!).

BTW Since I personally do not "cheat" I have stopped racing in sport mode.

Those exploits have been highlighted in numerous threads and many have been addressed. Exploiters are regularly labelled as cheats. People who deliberately cause contact to gain an advantage are cheating. I don't think wall riding can be exploited to gain an advantage anymore. Abusing track limits is somewhat tolerated (Nurb GP T2 & T4, RBR T1, etc.), but not always. The concept that some people deem some infringements to be worse than others is hardly new, or exclusive to GTS.