Sebastian Vettel vs Lewis Hamilton

[niky]

You mean Kamui Kobayashi?

But seriously... this is a catfight thread. Let's stick to the two main cats.

 

[F1 fan]

You mean Kamui Kobayashi?

But seriously... this is a catfight thread. Let's stick to the two main cats.

Huh? I don't understand? I said Kobayashi... Unless that was your pick of the two.

 

[Peter.]

Are you trying to provoke the Webber fan in me?

Do you remember what happened last season at Silverstone (I think it was Silverstone, correct me if I'm wrong)? Vettel was favored over him outright and do you remember the outcome? It fueled him, it didn't dissuade his talent at all. Most of us here already know Red Bull has favored Vettel to some greater extent since day one and to be quite honest why wouldn't they? He was in their program and you could even argue he was 'bred' specifically for this team, Webber wasn't. He has tremendous pace, the only thing that's still of question is craft, but even that's improved almost twofold since last season. Webber may be "Mr. Second" but he can still take things right away from Vettel. Hell, he could have and most likely would have done it last year had it not been for his mistakes and injury (of which he refuses to attribute to his downhill performance at the end of the season).

Webber has the pace, and the ability to beat Vettel to wins, but he doesn't have no. 1 status, which puts him back in the ways I listed. Silverstone 2010, didn't Vettel have a puncture, while ahead of Mark? Yes Mark could've been closer or even ahead with a new front wing, but that's an example of how Mark's put back so Vettel can go forward, but Mark made the best of everything and won the race, which is good for him.

See 2 things can happen to you when you're put in you place as a #2 driver. Either you're motivated to succeed and crush your teammate to show that you're more than a #2, which is what Webber did, or do what Massa did and sit back and take the #2 spot and not really try to change it.

 

[F1 fan]

Webber has the pace, and the ability to beat Vettel to wins, but he doesn't have no. 1 status, which puts him back in the ways I listed. Silverstone 2010, didn't Vettel have a puncture, while ahead of Mark? Yes Mark could've been closer or even ahead with a new front wing, but that's an example of how Mark's put back so Vettel can go forward, but Mark made the best of everything and won the race, which is good for him.

See 2 things can happen to you when you're put in you place as a #2 driver. Either you're motivated to succeed and crush your teammate to show that you're more than a #2, which is what Webber did, or do what Massa did and sit back and take the #2 spot and not really try to change it.

No, you are mistaken. Webber got a better start, Hamilton's front wing made contact with Vettel's tire, hence the puncture and Vettel dropped back behind Webber. Once again, the reason RBR favoured Vettel was due to the fact that he was leading the championship. There were only 2 new wings and the one on Vettel's car failed. It wasn't Vettel's fault.

You seem incapable of grasping that all formula one teams will decide on one driver if they have to. At Ferrari, it is Alonso, at Mclaren, it is Hamilton etc. To be honest, you seem more intent on stirring up s*** than having proper conversations... Which brings up a question. Weren't you banned? I assume you're still banned seeing as how you had to create a new account.

 

[Terronium-12]

I'd forgotten about the puncture, but you can likely chalk that up to his proneness to buckling under pressure last season. I also have to ask why Rosberg isn't on the list. Hamilton himself has said he's somewhat of an unappreciated talent, or was that Kovalainen? I can't even remember.

He's already been 5th three consecutive times during the season which says he's either pushing the W02 near it's limits, the strategies need to be improved, or he, or rather the car, lacks the speed to go any further. The latter of which says it all. Of course there's always the possibility that putting him in a worthy car would "saturate" his talent.

 

[TenEightyOne]

Vettel or Hamilton? S'easy enough

 

[Ferrari_1996]

Why? The whole thread seems like it was created by someone new to F1. I know it's a bit late, but it seems stupid not to include Alonso and Button.

I'm not new to F1.

 

[Anghammarad]

I maintain that there currently are only two superstar drivers in F1 who have the talent and know how to hotlap, race and, most importantly, get the most out of a car regardless of it being a brick or a winner. Neither of them is named Vettel.

 

[Hun200kmh]

^^^^ Rosberg?

Now seriously, I do dislike a few things about Vettel (every time "the finger" pops up I wonder if he should stick it up his own ... nose). And I agree with the previous poster that he needs some pruning still to be an all-round complete "superstar driver" like the other two.

However, it's not the car only, he did amazingly well with the Toro Rosso.

For me, you have two drivers that are a class apart. Closely followed by Vettel, Kubica (pre-crash, I can only hope ... ) and Rosberg.

 

[Ardius]

Its intriguing watching people's opinions of Vettel develop. What does he have to do to prove himself as good as the best? As far as I'm concerned, he already has done it all bar race a consistent season (though he is in the process of doing that right now). He has shown speed, a cool head, doesn't say anything wrong in interviews, can seemingly lead a team and always finds that extra time even when he is at a disadvantage. He has also shaken off the doubts about his overtaking this season with several great passes for position.

What does Lewis or Fernando have that Seb doesn't? I think I know the answer - its nothing to do with Vettel. I think its purely a question of fandom, I expect in a year or two Vettel will have a similar standing and have his own fans to back him up. But at the moment it seems some people don't like the idea of admitting Vettel is as good as their favourite driver.

I'm always trying to view each driver from a neutral standpoint, I do have favourites and funnily enough I used to be a fan of Vettel in 2007/2008. But lately I've not really liked his personality and felt he was a little weak when it came to racecraft. But in the past few seasons, I honestly think Vettel has done everything required to be ranked among the greats.
Sure Vettel has weaknesses, but then they all do. Particularly Hamilton and Alonso - who have been prone to some very silly mistakes under pressure (Hamilton more than Alonso though, Alonso's strength is generally making no mistakes).

Its interesting that Hun brings up Kubica too, as he is also a driver who has done everything except win the championship - and I already consider him one of the greats even if he never wins the WDC. The day he does win the WDC, I can't really consider him anything less than great.

I'm not even going to bother with the whole "he only has the best car", "X driver could drag a dog of a car to the top", "lets see what he does in a terrible car" - if you really pay attention you can easily appreciate talent regardless of the car they are in. Kobayashi hasn't been in a top car yet, but he has clear talent, the only question is whether he can deal with the pressure of a top car. There is no question he could drag a bottom car upwards...same goes for Vettel, the only question was whether he could deal with the pressure. Its pretty obvious he has the speed to drive the wheels off any car you put him in!

 

[Hollidog]

Lets not forget about overtaking statistics. Clearly Lewis has the advantage here but the numbers only tell part of the story.

Vettel doesnt have to do much passing because he is usually at the front of the pack due to the fast nature of himself and the RB7 in qualifying. But being able to lead from the front and not bow to pressure (last ten laps of Spain, as the most recent example), is no mean feat.

Hamilton on the other hand usually finds himself trying to recover from his own mistake usually at the start or in qualifying. He puts himself on the back foot because he is impatient. Dont get me wrong, I like this about him, he is a real racer. Then again, using Spain as an example again, Vettel managed to pass both Alonso and Hamilton (was it these to who he was behind after his first pit stop where RBR put him and Webber out into traffic), in just one lap, where as Webber took nearly three? Also when you consider the fact that Hamilton had to drive in the pack most of the time in 09, so he has much more time to learn it than Vettel, who pretty much just goes from the front.

 

[Matti_Dude]

.
Then again, using Spain as an example again, Vettel managed to pass both Alonso and Hamilton (was it these to who he was behind after his first pit stop where RBR put him and Webber out into traffic), in just one lap, where as Webber took nearly three? Also when you consider the fact that Hamilton had to drive in the pack most of the time in 09, so he has much more time to learn it than Vettel, who pretty much just goes from the front.

Vettel came out behind the Massa, Button during his first stop. Although yes that was some pretty impressive stuff to overtake three cars in one lap, even with his tire advantage it shows very good race craft. But Vettel started his career at Toro Rosso where he was racing in the midfield? But I don't think using 09 as an excuse for Hamilton being better at overtaking is a valid point, especially seeing as drivers develop their race craft during all of their time spent in the junior series as well as formula one. There's a good clip of Hamilton and Vettel battling each other in F3.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rkLZBxHWRXA

 

[Saidur_Ali]

Lets not forget about overtaking statistics. Clearly Lewis has the advantage here but the numbers only tell part of the story.

Vettel doesnt have to do much passing because he is usually at the front of the pack due to the fast nature of himself and the RB7 in qualifying. But being able to lead from the front and not bow to pressure (last ten laps of Spain, as the most recent example), is no mean feat.

Hamilton on the other hand usually finds himself trying to recover from his own mistake usually at the start or in qualifying. He puts himself on the back foot because he is impatient. Dont get me wrong, I like this about him, he is a real racer. Then again, using Spain as an example again, Vettel managed to pass both Alonso and Hamilton (was it these to who he was behind after his first pit stop where RBR put him and Webber out into traffic), in just one lap, where as Webber took nearly three? Also when you consider the fact that Hamilton had to drive in the pack most of the time in 09, so he has much more time to learn it than Vettel, who pretty much just goes from the front.

I'm pretty sure Lewis was a good overtaker in 2007 and 2008 too and in the lower formulas, it is not like he was only starting to learn to overtake well in 2009.

Also Vettel has not always been at the front such as in 2008 and in lower formulas, also in 2009 the RB5 was on equal with the Brawn that year but Button did the better job, but if Vettel was maybe a better overtaker that year the result could have been different. I would have been more impressed with Vettel if he could pass Alonso in his first stint last race but he failed and had to undercut him through pit stops. Webber also failed to get past Alonso for most of the race due to being 2nd on strategy and Ferrari having knowledge of when Red Bull will pit him (Cough, cough). I was initially happy Alonso taking the lead of the race, then realised that Vettel was ahead of Webber which ended up destroying Webber's race by being stuck behind Alonso due to being 2nd on strategy. Better for a 1-2 Red Bull with Webber first as that means less points gained for Vettel over Hamilton, Button and Alonso.

Here is an interesting fact. Last race was the first race Vettel actually won without leading into the first corner apart from Abu Dhabi 2009 when Lewis retired due to brake failure I think. The car leading got lapped in the end so you might say it is a half-hearted victory on that front. However the actual way he won was impressive as he could not afford to make a mistake on the final sector, otherwise he would have got passed. I

I think the RB7 downforce must of given him good confidence to be consistent, but if you see the actual onboard of Lewis in the final stint it is mighty impressive of how hard and fast Lewis was driving and managed to set the fastest lap of the race on the tyres he called a 'disaster' initally but the impressive thing was Vettel was still able to pull out a gap not to be vulnerable from the straightline speed of the McLaren. Maybe the dirty air helped Vettel but that is still mighty impressive.

Back on topic and to the question, Sebasian Vettel agrees Lewis is better.

Q: McLaren’s Lewis Hamilton said that he took quite a lot of pleasure out of chasing you on track in Barcelona. He seems to think he would be faster in the Red Bull. What is your opinion?
SV: I guess Lewis said it all. If that is what he thinks, that’s fine with me.

Q: But how fast do you think he is?
SV: I think he is one of the best drivers. I definitely count him among the handful of drivers to set the tone in Formula One. He is one of our foremost challengers. I think that is all there can be said about this matter. In the end there can only be one winner - and we will always do everything we can so that it will be us.

Just joking of course but I think Lewis is better as I don't think he has been beaten by a team mate over the course of a season in his whole racing career. He has had tough team mates in his career such as Nico Rosberg, Adrian Sutil, Fernando Alonso, Hekki Kovalainen and Jenson Button who are all in F1 and have done reasonably well against all there other team mates. I think Vettel would think highly of Lewis after seeing what he did in the 2005 Formula 3 Euro Series and the above quote does prove he does in F1 as well.

 

[PeterJB]

This is a difficult one. Both are equally fast, perhaps Vettel more so in the long term. Lewis has a far more aggressive and entertaining driving style, but coupled with this is instability in his driving, as he has had a fair few more crashes in his time than Vettel has. Vettel seems far better at coping with pressure and can sustain incredible race paces for much longer periods of time, but while his attacking and overtaking ability is good, it falls short of Lewis' abilities.

I'd go for Vettel.

 

[Saidur_Ali]

This is a difficult one. Both are equally fast, perhaps Vettel more so in the long term. Lewis has a far more aggressive and entertaining driving style, but coupled with this is instability in his driving, as he has had a fair few more crashes in his time than Vettel has. Vettel seems far better at coping with pressure and can sustain incredible race paces for much longer periods of time, but while his attacking and overtaking ability is good, it falls short of Lewis' abilities.

I'd go for Vettel.

I doubt Lewis has had more crashes than Vettel (If you can prove it then fair play), as I know Lewis in fact has one of the best DNF ratios on the grid, and more of them are due to reliability as far as I know.

I have yet to see Lewis having any significant weakeness in sustaining fast race paces, I think he is very strong at that personally, more so than his qualifying speed and that also is impressive. Heikki Kovalainen is known as a fast qualifier but in races he couldn't keep up with Hamilton quite often which ended up with him being at Team Lotus (Subject to change tomorrow).

Even a solid performer in race like Button could not get the upper hand on Lewis in the championship table and any weaknesses Lewis has had was not been enough for any of his team mates to beat him (Fernando Alonso also found out how consistently good Lewis was in 2007 by Lewis setting a record 9 consecutive podiums on his debut season), but Vettel has been beaten by team mates in lower formulas. I think Vettel's status has grown hugely due to the car being a different class in 2010 and so far in 2011 and it will be interesting to see how he copes if he is given the equal fastest car like in 2009 again given that he is older and more experienced now.

 

[Hollidog]

The reason is used 2009 is an example is because that was the year we went to wide front wings. Granted Vettel didnt have the clear pace advantage as he does now, but he was still mostly at the front if not always the top five. Vetted would have won that WDC if it had not been for reliability. And as debatable as that is at least it is tangible and significant, not like saying because he couldn't pass driver X he missed out on Y. Button did save his own ass in Brazil when he passed seven cars.

So what I'm saying is Lewis has had more time in the midfield with the current generation of cars, which as I'm sure we can agree are vastly different to the junior formulas.

Correct me if I'm wrong but Hamilton also had KERS that season? Therefore he should know the theory better than Vettel. Also, RBRs KERS issues don't help him in the slightest.

 

[Saidur_Ali]

The reason is used 2009 is an example is because that was the year we went to wide front wings. Granted Vettel didnt have the clear pace advantage as he does now, but he was still mostly at the front if not always the top five. Vetted would have won that WDC if it had not been for reliability. And as debatable as that is at least it is tangible and significant, not like saying because he couldn't pass driver X he missed out on Y. Button did save his own ass in Brazil when he passed seven cars.

So what I'm saying is Lewis has had more time in the midfield with the current generation of cars, which as I'm sure we can agree are vastly different to the junior formulas.

Correct me if I'm wrong but Hamilton also had KERS that season? Therefore he should know the theory better than Vettel. Also, RBRs KERS issues don't help him in the slightest.

In 2008 Vettel was in the midield a lot more than Lewis was in 2009. I mean Lewis took 4 pole positions in 2009, the same as Button and Vettel and also won two races. He was only in the midfield for the first half of the season. I think overtaking at the front is usually more impressive than midfield overtaking and it can't be only top speed of the McLaren that helps him out a lot as he managed to overtake his team mate quite a few times on track. I think Vettel's car having reliance on downforce may not be the best for overtaking if you can't get close enough on straights due to drag and might lose more advantage in corners due to dirty air, however downforce is good for out braking people.

Anyway I disagree he lost it on reliability as if he finished in the positions he was in before retiring or even slightly higher, it would of not been enough in terms of points to win the championship. He lost far more through driver error and crashing out and that really made the championship come towards Button as his early wins were being amplified by Vettel failing to pick large amount of points when he had a car advantage, and when he did not sometimes failing to pick up any points like at beginning of the season at the first two races.

 

[BlacqueJacques]

Maybe best to compare once their careers in F1 are over?

 

[jimftr]

Don't forget Kobayashi, Stick him in a mclaren or one of the better cars and he'd be incredibly fast, i'm sure of it.

 

[Clark]

I think they're both very very close, but Hamilton would edge it for me as he is better fighter and can race better.

That said I do think Vettel would have the edge in outright speed in quali.

 

[MarkWebber]

Are you trying to provoke the Webber fan in me?

Do you remember what happened last season at Silverstone (I think it was Silverstone, correct me if I'm wrong)? Vettel was favored over him outright and do you remember the outcome? It fueled him, it didn't dissuade his talent at all. Most of us here already know Red Bull has favored Vettel to some greater extent since day one and to be quite honest why wouldn't they? He was in their program and you could even argue he was 'bred' specifically for this team, Webber wasn't. He has tremendous pace, the only thing that's still of question is craft, but even that's improved almost twofold since last season. Webber may be "Mr. Second" but he can still take things right away from Vettel. Hell, he could have and most likely would have done it last year had it not been for his mistakes and injury (of which he refuses to attribute to his downhill performance at the end of the season).

I don't think Webber is the no.2 driver for Red Bull, only the results this year would suggest it to be the case, Christian Horner has stressed in the past that both drivers are treated equally.

 

[Saidur_Ali]

I don't think Webber is the no.2 driver for Red Bull, only the results this year would suggest it to be the case, Christian Horner has stressed in the past that both drivers are treated equally.

You didn't use to think that though about the equal treatment. Anyway in Turkey Vettel got the new exhaust system but crashed it in Practice while Webber didn't which I think is true. If Webber had the new update, I wonder if they would have given that to Vettel to test and use. He also missed FP1 due to a cut wiring loom for the gearbox this week, I wonder how that happened and a damaged chassis for the first race of the season. All fits with your sabotage stance earlier. Anyway if that was the case I doubt Christian Horner or Newey know about it but it only takes one engineer to mess things up and maybe Helmut Marko is the person ordering as he seemed to know about the chassis problem before anyone else.

However , enough of the conspiracy theories, Vettel has been beating Webber handily and fairly in the public eye this season but so has Lewis in qualifying and race so that will fit with what Newey saying that Webber being slower than Vettel to adapt to the tyres which maybe will give him more confidence to use the DRS earlier if he gets on top of things. Anyway the gap is closing between them and it will be interesting to see how the battle goes as I can see Webber getting close to him like last season in due time, maybe in time to give other drivers a chance to fight with Sebastian.

 

[Peter.]

No, you are mistaken. Webber got a better start, Hamilton's front wing made contact with Vettel's tire, hence the puncture and Vettel dropped back behind Webber. Once again, the reason RBR favoured Vettel was due to the fact that he was leading the championship. There were only 2 new wings and the one on Vettel's car failed. It wasn't Vettel's fault.

You seem incapable of grasping that all formula one teams will decide on one driver if they have to. At Ferrari, it is Alonso, at Mclaren, it is Hamilton etc. To be honest, you seem more intent on stirring up s*** than having proper conversations... Which brings up a question. Weren't you banned? I assume you're still banned seeing as how you had to create a new account.

Didn't finish that post, made it in a hurry, so forgive me if it's rubbish and looks as if i'm intentionally stirring things up. And about me being banned, yes, I was banned. But I asked nicely to come back and got a yes. Let's not bring that up again, thanks.

 

[pstar]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rkLZBxHWRXA

seems like hamilton had the upper hand against vettel in the lower formulas....................i checked formula 3 2005 season looks like hamilton dominated it..........

im not familiar with f3 cars but im sure everyone uses very similar chassis.

 

[xX_F Alonso_Xx]

I would say Hamilton is faster than Vettel. If I owned a team I would rather have Alonso, great all round driver.
(I may be biased )

 

[Greycap]

seems like hamilton had the upper hand against vettel in the lower formulas....................i checked formula 3 2005 season looks like hamilton dominated it..........

Hamilton was 20 at the time and was driving his third season in F3, Vettel was 18 and driving his first season. That might just make a difference.

Also the spec series don't tell much about when comparing drivers directly, what suits one guy may not suit the other at all. How many would agree if I said Kovalainen is as good as Rosberg, after all they performed nearly identically in GP2? Not many.

 

[Akmuq]

He was in their program and you could even argue he was 'bred' specifically for this team, Webber wasn't.

That reminds me of the Stig farm on Top Gear.

You seem incapable of grasping that all formula one teams will decide on one driver if they have to. At Ferrari, it is Alonso, at Mclaren, it is Hamilton etc. To be honest, you seem more intent on stirring up s*** than having proper conversations... Which brings up a question. Weren't you banned? I assume you're still banned seeing as how you had to create a new account.

Ok, first of all, Peter wasn't banned for stirring up 🤬 (<Don't avoid the swear filter)
It was something different which I do not want to get into.
Secondly, in every race thread this season you seem to of got into an argument about something. Who does that make look bad?
I like how just after you said stirring up 🤬 you said he doesn't want proper conversations.
You were giving out in the Monaco thread that people were calling Lewis Hamilton 'Hammy' which contributed nothing to the discussion at all. Now that's a proper conversation.[/sarcasm]

 

[Ardius]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rkLZBxHWRXA

seems like hamilton had the upper hand against vettel in the lower formulas....................i checked formula 3 2005 season looks like hamilton dominated it..........

im not familiar with f3 cars but im sure everyone uses very similar chassis.

Hamilton was 20 at the time and was driving his third season in F3, Vettel was 18 and driving his first season. That might just make a difference.

Also the spec series don't tell much about when comparing drivers directly, what suits one guy may not suit the other at all. How many would agree if I said Kovalainen is as good as Rosberg, after all they performed nearly identically in GP2? Not many.

F3 isn't spec series by the way, teams can use any chassis that meets the regulations and any engine. Though they are all fairly close it does make a difference. In that season of Euroseries in particular nearly everyone was using Dallara chassis but they were all different specs and there were 4 different engine suppliers.
As Greycap says though, Hamilton was far more experienced than Vettel at the time - it actually speaks volumes about Vettel's talent that he was fighting near the top in his rookie season!

I also concur with Greycap that series that are "spec series" like GP2, GP3, Formula 2, FPA, Formula Renault, (current) Indycar, etc are not always true indicators of talent because one car can always favour one driver's style to another. You might make a case for the better drivers being able to adapt to cars that don't suit their style but at the end of the day its always a disadvantage to be having to adapt. People say Alonso is great at adapting to different cars (just as Schumacher once was) but I'm pretty sure he is much faster in cars he feels comfortable in as opposed to cars he doesn't, even if it isn't by much the point is its a factor to consider.

I think the perennial example will be Kobayashi, looked distinctly average to poor in GP2, look where he is now. A lot of people hadn't even known he existed till his debut at Toyota.

The reason spec series are great is that they keep costs down which allows more drivers to compete as its easier to find a budget. But even spec series suffer from "money over talent", even if the teams are not spending on cars, they can spend on the best mechanics, engineers, trainers, testing etc. You will regularly see a difference in quality between teams in spec series, just as you do in open-series like F3 and F1. So in theory the drivers with the most money tend to get the best results, but in practice its always pretty clear when someone has only got money going for them (e.g. Ricardo Teixeira) and when a driver does have genuine talent as well as a big wallet (Sergio Perez).

 

[Rich S]

There;s no doubt, Vettel is a bit better than Hamilton...The fact that he won his first race in a Torro Rosso proves it.

However, the drivers are all very similar. It swings back and forth like a pendulum.

Alonso beats both of them.....he's a true talent on GP circuits, along with Kubica. Maybe Kobayashi, Maldonado, Timo Glock, Rosberg, Petrov & Heidfeld could get up in there to with equal cars... Glock is probably the most wasted world class formula driver, LOL.

Webber hasn't performed this year for some reason....is his car any different than Vette'ls or is he off form? Dont know. He's not getting any younger that could be a factor.

 

[Ardius]

I don't see why you put Maldonado in that list, when has he proved he could "put it up there"? He has had one good qualifying in Spain and one good race in F1 so far, and it was at his favourite and best track. He needs to keep it up first and hasn't really been under much pressure yet as the Williams has been a lottery whether it will finish races or not.
Petrov, Heidfeld, Kobayashi, Glock and Rosberg have the potential, or had in Heidfeld's case but have yet to prove it. I think Heidfeld's ship has sailed judging by his season so far and we have yet to see the others under the pressure of a championship battle.