Should B-Spec be in GT5?

[msako]

I am not double posting as far as I can tell. I don't snip here because I don't want to be misconstrued.

Out.

Dude, msako, could you try to just put all your replys in one post instead of double-posting or even triple-posting like you just did and maybe not copy the entire quote of the other person?

 

[buickgnx88]

Double posting....posting 2 seperate times in a row....whatever. Point is it gets annoying not to mention quoting the entire post (especially similar to the length of johnbm01's) causes the pages to be longer than they should be.

 

[RACECAR]

It would be good if B-spec was improved upon 👍

• Having a roster of drivers with differing abilities to choose between and swap over at pitstops.

• The ability to plan and execute pitstops in advance if you are using the 'speed up time' facility so you don't need to keep having to change viewing speeds again after a pit stop.

• Be able to change some of the settings during a pit stop ie wing settings, damper settings, ride height as you can IRL.

• The ability to 'manage' two, or more cars as a team. You could then use a second car as a wingman for your main championship contender and have team tactics come into play.

Agreed 👍

 

[msako]

Like you said, "whatever." I'm here to share opinions. Your opinion of my online style obviously doesn't comply with your preferences. I respect your opinion however I would rather spend time here writing about the game instead of my posting style. In the old days of dial-up BBSs the excessive quoting complaints from netcops were valid. In these days of broadband and GUI interfaces, that doesn't hold anymore.

If you don't like my opinions about the game and you disagree with them, provide counterpoint. Criticizing my online behavior (which I believe is not out of line, by the way) is wasting everyone's time. If I'm wrong on this then so be it. I happen to feel very strongly about this topic (Should B-spec be in GT5) so I feel a need to discuss it, learn others' opinions about it and then try to rationalize my opinions. So far, nobody has really done much except vehemently disagree with my opinion. But that's what forums, discussion boards and talk radio is all about. If everyone is just a mind-numbed robot then the forum becomes very boring.

Double posting....posting 2 seperate times in a row....whatever. Point is it gets annoying not to mention quoting the entire post (especially similar to the length of johnbm01's) causes the pages to be longer than they should be.

 

[Hun200kmh]

I'm not a B-Spec hater, but, unless B-Spec becomes a true "team management and strategy" option, I don't find it of much use.

What made most of us use B-Spec in GT4 was the lack of the ability to save races at a given point. The old Le Mans game allowed us to save in the pits, and that was fine by me (made several 24 hour races in that game, and I'm proud of them all).

I hope PD fix this for GT5. If they do, I'll probably run all races in A-Spec. If they don't ... I'll again use B-Spec just to make the PS3 win a few prize cars for me. It spoils the pleasure of winning them personally, but I'm just not crazy enough to drive consecutively for 12 or 24 hours, and I really want those prize cars.

 

[msako]

I pretty much am in full agreement with you. It's my strong opinion that the whole team management facade is phony and never made any sense to me, given the fact that this game is the gold standard by which all other games are measured in terms of design and execution. If they really wanted a nice team management mode, they could have designed it in. It's still my contention that B-spec is an internal hook for debugging, testing and was probably never meant for consumption except via a cheat or something like that. It's just too limited and hokey to be a real feature in a game of this quality level.

I agree that a save in the pit might be workable. By the way, are you averse to pause and leaving your machine powered on?

I'm not a B-Spec hater, but, unless B-Spec becomes a true "team management and strategy" option, I don't find it of much use.

What made most of us use B-Spec in GT4 was the lack of the ability to save races at a given point. The old Le Mans game allowed us to save in the pits, and that was fine by me (made several 24 hour races in that game, and I'm proud of them all).

I hope PD fix this for GT5. If they do, I'll probably run all races in A-Spec. If they don't ... I'll again use B-Spec just to make the PS3 win a few prize cars for me. It spoils the pleasure of winning them personally, but I'm just not crazy enough to drive consecutively for 12 or 24 hours, and I really want those prize cars.

 

[Hun200kmh]

....
By the way, are you averse to pause and leaving your machine powered on?

....

I have kids, you know, and I really can't keep the PS2 reserved to "my game" one full week.

It would be "bad strategy and team management"

 

[msako]

Me too, but they also have PSP, Xbox360 and Wii so it's not that difficult anymore. Way back when I solved it by buying a second PS2 (kept the older one for myself and gave them the new, thin one).

I have kids, you know, and I really can't keep the PS2 reserved to "my game" one full week.

It would be "bad strategy and team management"

 

[greenlightning]

Grantursimo is a game that is designed with a start and finish. In reality there is so much in between that there are those who may never finish the game but experience more of the game then those that finish. What I am saying is there are those that may "B-spec" for cash and cars in order to be able to experience more of the game then if there was no "B-spec". As it has been said many times before "B" spec has much more to offer to more people then what it could ever take away.

 

[JohnBM01]

I'm actually working on something for my personal web page in regards to a team setup. I just haven't put the deal all together. Still, though. Keep B-Spec. Give the not-very-talented and not-very-good the tools they need to win races if they can't hone their skills just enough to where there would be no need for trying to race endlessly. Most of you look at it (the B-Spec haters) as a lack of hardcore skill. I look at this from a realistically advantageous standpoint. People have lives. Not all of us can be dedicated gamers or dedicated racers. I am a veteran of Gran Turismo. I've won and lost races on my own even before B-Spec was conceptualized. I still recall losing the Special Stage Route 11 endurance (Normal direction) in Gran Turismo 1 with my high-powered 3000GT (GTO). I remember being down huge doing Tahiti Maze (Normal, Hard) until I made a valiant comeback in my Toyota RSC(?) Rally Raid Car to beat a Lancia Delta Rally Car (or S4? Can't remember). I'm not severely dedicated. Okay, think of me like this as an analogy: I'm more likely to do a 30-minute Deathmatch against 13 other opponents in Unreal Tournament 2004 at Osiris than an all-night deal playing multiple Assault (I personally prefer kicking other peoples' asses than a drawn-out Assault mission) levels in one night. I'm dedicated, just not hardcore.

Let's go back to what msako mentioned. Would you want two sim modes? And do you actually think there would be two sim modes?

 

[msako]

I think the answer to this question says more about what a person is looking for than anything else. Like I said before, it's my opinion that if you make it so easy to achieve something via an assist then doesn't that lessen the value to someone who didn't use that assist? Do you remember the controversy Casey Martin caused when he sued the PGA so he could use a cart because of his medical condition? There were people on both sides of the argument and guess what? Yes, the political correctness police won in the court of public opinion, Mr. Martin won in court but was not successful on the PGA Tour. He eventually left and got on with his life and is now coaching golf in college. I feel like those golfers who criticized him for wanting to use the cart. I used to play golf and I know what a huge advantage using a cart is. Golf is a game where your leg strength is very important in order to maintain your swing. Being able to ride a cart in 100-degree/100%-humidity weather is just too much of an advantage for any player, bad leg or not. Something just isn't right about it.

I really feel this way about B-spec. It just doesn't feel right. I don't give a hoot about these forums so much. It's when I talk to my group of friends who are GT enthusiasts. Most of us are against B-spec. One friend who has no chance to get an F1 car copied my card and now he has one. He won't contaminate his card with B-spec, either, but he really wanted to try out the card so I loaned him one. He uses my card only when he wants to use the F1 car but still uses his to accumulate golds and other cars.

Another mode would make it feel right for me. Personally, a B-spec mode (where A-spec is permitted) would satisfy me.

Let's go back to what msako mentioned. Would you want two sim modes? And do you actually think there would be two sim modes?

 

[sxy rider 39]

He won't contaminate his card with B-spec, either.

yeah, cuz copying someone's memmory to get a car is better than "contaminating" your file by using B-Spec and getting the car by yourself. your arguments against b-spec sound a lot like the arguments of people who don't want a paintshop in GT so that other people won't be able to offend them with how they customize their cars. I don't really get your reasoning for being so against b-spec mode. You think of it as a crutch, or whatever, so you don't use it. so, why does it bother you so much that it's there? Do you have some sort of internal struggle where B-spec constantly tempts you to use it, but because of your pride you can't use it... so you wish they'd get rid of it, and all your temptations to use it? I just don't get your reasoning at all.

 

[msako]

I was never tempted to use it after I read about it here. I'm not against B-spec as a function. I am against it being mixed together in sim mode with A-spec. If it were in arcade mode I could care less. I've never played arcade mode, either, by the way. It is an assist (a crutch as you refer to it) and I don't use it but that's irrelevant.

It sounds like you don't get my reasoning because you are a big fan of it, but I'm not in your head so I can't be sure. You are quite entitled to your opinion and I respect your right to your opinion. I just happen to probably disagree with it if you fall into the B-spec apologist category.

One thing that I am sure even someone like you would agree with is that it completely removes any significant challenge to finishes the races, other than perhaps paying your electricity bill for 8 hours worth of PS2 time.

I just prefer to have a gaming environment where an achievement is done in a compartmentalized mode where assists are not available. You are probably fortunate that you don't know my opinion on aftermarket steering wheels because you would probably not like that opinion, either.

yeah, cuz copying someone's memmory to get a car is better than "contaminating" your file by using B-Spec and getting the car by yourself. your arguments against b-spec sound a lot like the arguments of people who don't want a paintshop in GT so that other people won't be able to offend them with how they customize their cars. I don't really get your reasoning for being so against b-spec mode. You think of it as a crutch, or whatever, so you don't use it. so, why does it bother you so much that it's there? Do you have some sort of internal struggle where B-spec constantly tempts you to use it, but because of your pride you can't use it... so you wish they'd get rid of it, and all your temptations to use it? I just don't get your reasoning at all.

 

[msako]

I went back and gave this some thought. I may be hardcore in some people's eyes but I consider myself more of a purist fan than hardcore. Years ago (GT3 vintage) I walked and photographed Route 246 in Tokyo. See: http://sotobori.com/route246b/image001.htm

People thought I was crazy (it takes about 3 hours walking leisurely and staging shots, about 1.5 hours if you walk brisk and don't stop). It went over so well that a few years later when GT4 came out I did it again. See: http://sotobori.com/2006r246/index.html

Shortly after I posted the 2006 GT4 photo essay here, someone called Interceptor went through the game and screen captured my scenes from the game and posted them here. See: http://sotobori.com/interceptor/

The work that Interceptor did is what I call hardcore. There was some serious hours put into doing all of that work. Hardcore is probably not a strong enough term for this.

But back to my point. As a fan of this game (actually, I have never played any other game on my PS2 or PSOne), I find it rather disappointing that they would award an F1 car for virtually no effort ('ring 24 hours in B-spec). If they would have left it out and required S-gold licenses or something like that I would feel better about this. I went back and looked at my posts. What really upsets me is they basically give away a free F1 car. It's not B-spec that I'm that upset about. It's the free F1 car. Enough said.

The second kind of person is the one who is absolutely hardcore in what they do, usually disallowing themselves to take any sort of aids or assists.

 

[dylansan]

B-Spec will only make the game easier if you use it. The only way you will end up with less of a sense of achievement is if you lacked the self control to avoid using that. That's not PD's problem. If you do complete the game in A-Spec, there is no reason you should feel guilty just because B-Spec is in the game.

Edit: Who cares about a free F1 car? If you get it by working hard, then good for you. Nobody's parading around bragging about an F1 car that they won in a video game. If they win it with B-Spec, they won't feel the same sense of accomplishment, and they'll either go again without a "crutch", or just live with the fact that they didn't really earn it. What do you care what someone else does on their video game?

 

[msako]

I don't like having to preface my achievement with the fact I earned it without the assist. OK, got it?

What do you care what someone else does on their video game?

 

[dylansan]

Well sorry then. Now that I think about it that's a great reason.

 

[Griffith500]

Well, I voted the bottom option: this was my personal opinion, and I didn't for one second think about anybody else's game experience!

However, having just read through the entirety of this thread in one go, I think my actual opinion (in terms of the final game) would be more sympathetic towards the B-Spec mode. I think it should be available for those that want to use it; I did want to at one point, but it was so rubbish (and time-consuming to remedy) that I gave up and revelled in the challenge of completing stuff in A-Spec only, especially with the maximum possible points I could achieve (sadly saying goodbye to the 100% win record of old.)

With the sudden and mysterious disappearance of my GT4 save memory card, I've had to start again and it's all A-Spec so far, but I'm still submitting to the quick'n'easy-cash schemes!

Regarding the enduros themselves, I've had issues completing them for about four years now, simply due to a lack of time and facility to leave the PS2 on pause without it being hijacked or switched off in my absence. I've not completed an enduro since the Roadster one on Apricot Valley in GT3! This is essentially because I didn't want to use B-Spec (initially because it sucked and later for the sheer challenge factor.)
That said, I would gladly welcome an unlimited save feature that automatically saved at each pitstop (no backtracking from a mistake; now that's hardcore.)

The C-Spec team management concept sounds great, but that should be a separate "sim-mode" in my opinion; the choice between A-Spec and B-Spec should still be available for most races in the standard sim-mode. Another option should be "full-sim" or "semi-sim" handling/physics/damage to be chosen at the start of the "sim" mode (in its current form,) just to up the challenge for the hardcore whilst still catering for the casual racers.

In essence, I believe you should be able to make the game as hard or as easy as you want to play it. I personally don't really care about completing games these days, it's all about the experiences along the way.
I have a lot more to propose about how the sim-mode could evolve, but I'll save that for another thread, perhaps.

[/essay]

 

[RACECAR]

I think some of you guys are taking msako's opinion way too seriously. He doesn't prefer B-spec, so what? Bashing his opinion won't make things different or better. He stating what he believes just as we are yet some of you feel like he is horribly wrong for what he is saying. While my opinion differs from his, I at the same time can understand what he's saying and respect his opinion threfore don't feel the need to argue with it. If its not hurting people or causing any serious damage, Then I don't see whats wrong with it.

Also, I think for the interest of differing preferences, How about the option of enabling it off or on in either mode via options? This way, players like msako can have a simulation mode without it and other players can use it when they need it.

 

[dylansan]

I have no problem with his opinion, but that doesn't mean I can't disagree, or even point out some flaws in it. I'm not trying to change opinions, just correct some false facts and assumptions. In fact, you make a good point. Why not allow you to disable it? Because it's exactly the same as not using it in the first place.

 

[buickgnx88]

Yah I'm a bit confused as to why it matters that B-spec is available in sim mode if they aren't forcing you to use it. Is it you just feel guilty that other players have the option to use it to get ahead whereas you have to work harder? Well if PD integrated midrace saves for the endurances then maybe people would actually want to play A-spec because they could complete it in increments. I have no problem with B-spec, I actually used it for the longer races due to the fact that my dad didn't like us leaving the PS2 on when we weren't playing it.

 

[msako]

I'm not sure if you play games like Half Life, Quake and all of the other shooters that allow for mods, cheats and even code changes. There are all sorts of assists and cheats you can do when you play the game. But, you know what? When you go online and compete against others you suddenly don't have access to those anymore. They only assist you have over your competition is a faster graphics card, faster CPU and faster Internet connection and the playing field is leveled at that point. That's the purist factor (as opposed to the aforementioned hardcore factor) from my standpoint. I just prefer a level playing field. B-spec is not a trivial assist. It's an almost total autopilot assist requiring virtually nothing in terms of investment from the player and the game becomes a second-person sim at that point. That's just too whack for me. Anyone is welcome to take shots at my opinions but the last time I checked, it's OK to state opinions here and to disagree with others.

Yah I'm a bit confused as to why it matters that B-spec is available in sim mode if they aren't forcing you to use it. Is it you just feel guilty that other players have the option to use it to get ahead whereas you have to work harder? Well if PD integrated midrace saves for the endurances then maybe people would actually want to play A-spec because they could complete it in increments. I have no problem with B-spec, I actually used it for the longer races due to the fact that my dad didn't like us leaving the PS2 on when we weren't playing it.

 

[nissan tuner]

msako, i dont think u understand. B-spec's main use is for the endurance events, 1000 miles! or in some cases, extream events in GT4 sim mode. it would be useless in arcade mode.

i do agree with removing b-spec from one-make races, country events, beginner and pro events but why should anyone have hit the pause button and leave their brand new PS3 on for days racing only 1 enduro?

(im guilty of using b-spec to get money but thats better than buying a gameshark and doing the billion dollar cheat)

 

[dylansan]

msako, you compare this game to games that are focused on online, but when you go through sim mode, you are not against anyone. B-Spec only acts as a "total autopilot" if you choose to use it, and nobody is going to come into your living room and kick your butt with B-Spec. It's pretty obvious that multiplayer will probably not allow B-Spec, but it wouldn't be too bad if it only allowed both players to use B-Spec, or neither.

 

[Griffith500]

Just to clarify: in terms of how I play GT4, I'm in msako's camp 100% - I like it to be a real challenge, though the AI often makes that a somewhat unfair experience...

B-Spec online sounds boring to me; "C-Spec" online (i.e. 5-8 players in director's mode with teams of 2-3 cars each,) now that sounds more fun, since there'd be so much more concentration needed from moment to moment and hence more potential for skills to develop.

As I (nearly) mentioned in my previous post, it all comes down to what you want from a game; personally I despise those people that play a game solely to "beat" it (a phrase I also despise: there is no "beating" a game, it plays out exactly how it was designed to, so if anything, it beats you!! haha...)

Part of the alluring nature of a game like GT (in all its incarnations) is that you can play it again and again, with certain rules imposed on yourself: e.g. in GT2 I tried to avoid quick money making schemes (Red Rock Valley -> TVR Speed 12 prize-car, anyone?) or simply starting with a different car! In GT4, the challenge might be to avoid using B-Spec for all but the enduros, or even including the enduros; maybe using N-tyres instead of Ss?
This should obviously be decided by the player, with as many different possibilities provided by the developers. In GT5, for example, would it benefit a wider cross-section of racers to have options allocated to various levels of realism/hardcoredness/"purism" for certain aspects of the gameplay? I'd say "yes, the more the better!" That way the B-Spec option could be removed by choice; damage could be nerfed or removed, by choice; the physics could be toned down or sharpened up to full-sim status for the first time in the series, too - again, according to the player's preference.
One option I'd personally like to see is a realistic representation of the driver's aids available on a car, e.g. TCS on cars that are sold with some form of traction control; anything that was not available on the original car would have to be fitted at a cost. Of course, this would be one more choice that could be made.

All this would help to attract far more gamers, and keep them playing for longer, too. Of course, there'll still be those that try to find the shortest and quickest route to that golden 100%...

 

[msako]

Read what I wrote carefully: "That's the purist factor (as opposed to the aforementioned hardcore factor) from my standpoint." I was only referring to my purist bent, nothing more. While there is no online mode with GT4, I was trying to be very clear as to what being a purist means. I am sorry if you don't understand.

msako, you compare this game to games that are focused on online, but when you go through sim mode, you are not against anyone. B-Spec only acts as a "total autopilot" if you choose to use it, and nobody is going to come into your living room and kick your butt with B-Spec. It's pretty obvious that multiplayer will probably not allow B-Spec, but it wouldn't be too bad if it only allowed both players to use B-Spec, or neither.

 

[dylansan]

You quite clearly pointed out that you don't want B-Spec in GT5. I wasn't referring to just that one post, but your entire opinion.
Let me ask you a question. Do you think that B-Spec should be removed from GT5's sim mode? If so, then we've given plenty of reasons why it shouldn't be.

 

[TunerFocus]

Well, I voted the bottom option: this was my personal opinion, and I didn't for one second think about anybody else's game experience!

I would gladly welcome an unlimited save feature that automatically saved at each pitstop[/b] (no backtracking from a mistake; now that's hardcore.)

This I totally agree with...100%. :tup:

 

[ardynkyle]

GT is for racers who want to race, the more you race the better you should be able to handle driving any car, any track, any time. The more seat time in the cars the better your runs should be. Any real race track in the world will sell you a ticket to be a spectator, none will let you drive the cars with out proper credentials. B-spec is for spectators. I have not and will not use this feature, however the save feature for longer races whould be handy.They could offer a version of the game with the b-spec feature for those that would prefer to play their game this way. Whatever the result i think it would be interesting to compare the level of car control between the drivers that have driven the entire game themselves and won vs those who have had the game win for them. I am by no means slaming anyone i just feel there is a vast difference in how the stats are acheived when mixing B-spec with A-spec drivers. There could be 2 separate classes.

 

[msako]

Yes, it should be removed from sim mode as we know it. I feel this way about any assists but especially this one because it's so excessive to the point of requiring almost no skills whatsoever to use. To me, that's called autopilot. In my opinion it turns a very entertaining first person sim into a totally unchallenged, boring second person sim.

And all of those silly arguments about just not using it are about as logical as telling someone they should close their eyes when they play if they want a real challenge to be proud of. To me those arguments are just plain silly.

You quite clearly pointed out that you don't want B-Spec in GT5. I wasn't referring to just that one post, but your entire opinion.
Let me ask you a question. Do you think that B-Spec should be removed from GT5's sim mode? If so, then we've given plenty of reasons why it shouldn't be.