Should B-Spec be in GT5?

[msako]

This pretty much mirrors my feelings. B-spec apologists will argue that it is for more than just spectators. As stated here before I think it would have been better if there was clear separation between what you call racer mode and spectator mode.

I think your pointing out that there is a vast difference in the ways that stats are accumulated probably sums up the main argument against. The difference is vast, vast enough to warrant separation.

GT is for racers who want to race, the more you race the better you should be able to handle driving any car, any track, any time. The more seat time in the cars the better your runs should be. Any real race track in the world will sell you a ticket to be a spectator, none will let you drive the cars with out proper credentials. B-spec is for spectators. I have not and will not use this feature, however the save feature for longer races whould be handy.They could offer a version of the game with the b-spec feature for those that would prefer to play their game this way. Whatever the result i think it would be interesting to compare the level of car control between the drivers that have driven the entire game themselves and won vs those who have had the game win for them. I am by no means slaming anyone i just feel there is a vast difference in how the stats are acheived when mixing B-spec with A-spec drivers. There could be 2 separate classes.

 

[dylansan]

Closing your eyes? What? It's not the same at all. The thing that's silly about closing your eyes is that if you do, you can't win. If we continue the analogy, that means you believe that we avoid the option of having our eyes open as well? Silly argument to say the least. It is quite easy (as you seem to agree) to just not use B-Spec.
The only reason it should be removed is if you don't have the self control to avoid it yourself.

 

[msako]

OK, close one eye, look through the bottom of a coke bottle with the other and play it from the other side of the room. You can also try tying one hand behind your back for a real challenge. I guess you'll never get the point. We have to agree to disagree.

Closing your eyes? What? It's not the same at all. The thing that's silly about closing your eyes is that if you do, you can't win. If we continue the analogy, that means you believe that we avoid the option of having our eyes open as well? Silly argument to say the least. It is quite easy (as you seem to agree) to just not use B-Spec.
The only reason it should be removed is if you don't have the self control to avoid it yourself.

 

[dylansan]

What the hell are you talking about? WHY IS IT SO HARD FOR YOU TO JUST AVOID USING B-SPEC? That's the only answer I'm looking for at the moment.

 

[Hun200kmh]

I really fail to understand all this arguing. Ok, some like to have a game that has the ability to play itself. Some don't. Just leave it that way, if I were PD I would just think. "if there are players out there that like B-Spec, just put it in GT5".

My only concern is that the illusion of B-Spec doesn't make them (PD) think that it's less important to add a midrace save feature.

It is not. It's really of a much greater importance.

So, I don't have a problem with B-Spec. I DO have a problem if midrace saves aren't allowed in GT5.

If I had to choose one or the other, I think it would be obvious that I prefer midrace saves.

 

[nissan tuner]

.

 

[nissan tuner]

msako, i dont think u understand. B-spec's main use is for the endurance events, 1000 miles! or in some cases, extream events in GT4 sim mode. it would be useless in arcade mode.

i do agree with removing b-spec from one-make races, country events, beginner and pro events but why should anyone have hit the pause button and leave their brand new PS3 on for days racing only 1 enduro?

(im guilty of using b-spec to get money but thats better than buying a gameshark and doing the billion dollar cheat)

you're still going on with this msako? i cant belive u dont see the use b-spec has with enduro's. since there's no such thing as a 1 driver lemans team...come to think of it, 90% of the cars your racing with in GT4 has a 2/3 man driving squad

common sence would tell you that PD would never scrap B-spec anyways, only inprove on it

 

[Griffith500]

So, I don't have a problem with B-Spec. I DO have a problem if midrace saves aren't allowed in GT5.

Seconded! 👍

 

[msako]

It's not really arguing. It's discussion. I'm not going to change my mind and the B-spec fans are not going to change theirs. They try to tell me why my viewpoint sucks, making ad hominem attacks by name/handle here and I try to tell them why I think B-spec is lame without the ad hominem. When people resort to ad hominem it's an indication that they know they've lost the argument according to the debating class that I took years ago. That's about all I have to say about that. It's just a game and I don't know why they get so defensive about some silly assist that I happen find lame. I guess I'm not entitled to an opinion that they disagree with or something. I'm in the US and in Japan where free speech is mostly respected, although it's being challenged in both countries after 9/11.

You did say something significant here regarding the game having the ability to play itself. To me, that's not a game, it's more like a replay or movie. 8 or 24 hours with little or no user input can hardly be characterized as anything more than that.

In Tokyo, I actually went to PD a few times with a friend of mine who knows some of the development team, both when they were in Aoyama in one of the Sony Computer Entertainment buildings and now in the new building in Toyosu. It's a pretty loose operation, very unlike the rest of corporate Japan. I didn't really see much of the development area because that's all pretty secret and you probably need to sign some sort of NDA to get in there. You can go there and see some nice display stuff in the lobby but you're not going to get a peek at much and you certainly wouldn't be able to get into their head about something as lame as B-spec being included or not as that's a product marketing issue and will probably be decided just before FCS in Japan.

Regarding saves, I have no problems with that, although I'm not holding my breath. I would use a save feature if it were there because I don't consider that anything more than a checkpoint restart if you power your unit off. It's not really an assist and you're not gaining any advantage or ducking anything by using it. You still have to put the time in, which for most of us can be a good thing because it makes us better drivers.

I really fail to understand all this arguing. Ok, some like to have a game that has the ability to play itself. Some don't. Just leave it that way, if I were PD I would just think. "if there are players out there that like B-Spec, just put it in GT5".

My only concern is that the illusion of B-Spec doesn't make them (PD) think that it's less important to add a midrace save feature.

It is not. It's really of a much greater importance.

So, I don't have a problem with B-Spec. I DO have a problem if midrace saves aren't allowed in GT5.

If I had to choose one or the other, I think it would be obvious that I prefer midrace saves.

 

[dylansan]

We know you don't like B-Spec, but we disagree with you thinking it shouldn't be in the game. Apparently we can't have opinions either? Look at it this way:
If B-Spec is in the game, the people who want to use it can, and you don't have to.
If not, then they can't use it even if they find it fun, and you still can't use it.
Getting rid of it will not help you at all if you think logically. You seem to have gotten along fine in GT4, playing in your "hardcore" way, even though there was B-Spec.
What exactly would make the game better for you if B-Spec was removed.

 

[msako]

I really don't care about B-spec. I just think it's lame. I don't like it or hate it because I don't use it. I just don't like the contamination of sim mode the way it does in a very extreme manner. It provides an assist that dumbs down sim mode to where you basically need almost no user input to finish everything. I would prefer if sim mode were left pure and B-spec had its own mode.

I was at an autocross a few years ago and people were talking about GT4. The topic of the F1 car came up and one guy was bragging about being 97% complete or something like that. I was only about 60% complete at the time and then he confessed that he used B-spec for most of that. Then, people started asking about B-spec, etc. and I tried to explain that 97% using B-spec vs 60% using A-spec was apples and oranges but nobody seemed to understand. I just told them, "whatever, so what," and I wasn't about to waste anymore time trying to convince them that one was like doing all the hard work and the other was like mailing it in. At that point I became very annoyed. I guess stuff like that bothers me. That's my problem, not yours or any of your ilk who believe what you do so I don't need anyone telling me I shouldn't be that way because my mother did enough of that when I was growing up. I don't participate in this forum to be net-nanny'ed.

So what if I don't think it should be in the game? Why are you so defensive about it? I don't care what you think. You shouldn't care what I think. You can argue your viewpoints which you really haven't been able to do very well here, other than saying you like it and I don't. I told you why I don't like it and that's my personal thing. I said it dumbs down the game, puts in an assist that has the capability of turning a first person driving sim into a second person replay movie. I prefer that assist not be there. You aren't going to change my mind and I am not going to change yours. What's your problem? Get over it. We can agree to disagree.

We know you don't like B-Spec, but we disagree with you thinking it shouldn't be in the game. Apparently we can't have opinions either? Look at it this way:
If B-Spec is in the game, the people who want to use it can, and you don't have to.
If not, then they can't use it even if they find it fun, and you still can't use it.
Getting rid of it will not help you at all if you think logically. You seem to have gotten along fine in GT4, playing in your "hardcore" way, even though there was B-Spec.
What exactly would make the game better for you if B-Spec was removed.

 

[dylansan]

Oh my god, so many problems with that post:

I really don't care about B-spec. I just think it's lame. I don't like it or hate it because I don't use it.

Then why did you come here in the first place? If you don't care either way then it really isn't an opinion. You are here saying that it should not be in the game because you won't use it. You are not the only one who plays the game.

I just don't like the contamination of sim mode the way it does in a very extreme manner.

Contamination? Only if you use it.

It provides an assist that dumbs down sim mode to where you basically need almost no user input to finish everything.

Again, only if you use it.

I would prefer if sim mode were left pure and B-spec had its own mode.

If you don't use it, your game will remain pure. If you did complete the game with no B-Spec, would you still feel less accomplishment because it was available?

I was at an autocross a few years ago and people were talking about GT4. The topic of the F1 car came up and one guy was bragging about being 97% complete or something like that. I was only about 60% complete at the time and then he confessed that he used B-spec for most of that. Then, people started asking about B-spec, etc. and I tried to explain that 97% using B-spec vs 60% using A-spec was apples and oranges but nobody seemed to understand. I just told them, "whatever, so what," and I wasn't about to waste anymore time trying to convince them that one was like doing all the hard work and the other was like mailing it in. At that point I became very annoyed. I guess stuff like that bothers me.

It would bother me too, but then I don't care if other people don't understand. It's there loss, as you already seem to understand.

That's my problem, not yours or any of your ilk who believe what you do so I don't need anyone telling me I shouldn't be that way because my mother did enough of that when I was growing up. I don't participate in this forum to be net-nanny'ed.

Nanny'ed? So telling you why we think B-Spec should be included is more "nannying" than trying to take it away from everyone else? (Although you did say another mode, it shouldn't be necessary if people can just choose whether to use it or not. Instead of forcing people to chose a mode for what kind of racing they want to do, why not just allow both choices in one mode?)

So what if I don't think it should be in the game? Why are you so defensive about it?

Be sure you're not confusing me with others. You have been just as defensive about getting rid of it. This is what we call an argument, and there's nothing wrong with them if you do them properly. I've seen a few be a little rude towards you, and I thought I'd remind you that I wasn't involved.

I don't care what you think. You shouldn't care what I think. You can argue your viewpoints which you really haven't been able to do very well here, other than saying you like it and I don't. I told you why I don't like it and that's my personal thing.

Great. Why does it matter to you that we want B-Spec. Nobody specifically said you were wrong, but so far you've turned down every reason given why people want it in the game.

I said it dumbs down the game,

If you use it.

puts in an assist that has the capability of turning a first person driving sim into a second person replay movie.

If you use it.

I prefer that assist not be there.

Wouldn't it be easier to just not use it, then to try to give PD a reason to get rid of it (which will probably not happen)?

You aren't going to change my mind and I am not going to change yours. What's your problem? Get over it. We can agree to disagree.

Look, if you feel that strongly that B-Spec should be eliminated, you would be taking B-Spec not away from your game, but everyone's. If we keep it, nobody is forcing you to use the damn thing! Is it really that hard to just avoid it, and is it necessary to prevent everyone else from using it just to make the game more "pure"?



You continuously fail to answer any questions and simply complain that we are not letting you voice your opinion. We are not trying to change your opinions, just the ideas that you have that are false. For example, you obviously believe that the game will be easier if B-Spec is included. That is not true. You can easily challenge yourself by avoiding it.

the game is as hard as you make it. That's why GT is so great, you can make your own challenges to make the game more enjoyable. Some people won't get as much enjoyment without B-Spec, and by getting rid of it, you would spoil their fun, for what? Honestly, nothing that you couldn't have done yourself with a little self control.

Please, when you quote this, separate the parts you are replying to and answer under each part. That way you might actually answer some of the questions you have avoided answering.

Discussions like these are for sharing opinions. Don't get too into it.

 

[RACECAR]

"sigh" this has turned from an friendly discussion to a argumentive debate. Let me review this:

msako believes that B-spec should be seperated from sim mode and given its own mode as he explains here:

I would prefer if sim mode were left pure and B-spec had its own mode.

And MINICOOPER120 seems to thinks msako wants it removed from the game and disagrees heavily:

We know you don't like B-Spec, but we disagree with you thinking it shouldn't be in the game.

From what I see, Msako isn't saying it shouldn't be in the game but rather it should be seperated from sim mode and made its own mode and MINICOOPER120, I think you're taking it the wrong way. Technically with what he's saying, B-spec would still be in the game, just in a different place.

 

[msako]

Whatever.

Oh my god, so many problems with that post:

Then why did you come here in the first place? If you don't care either way then it really isn't an opinion. You are here saying that it should not be in the game because you won't use it. You are not the only one who plays the game.
Contamination? Only if you use it.
Again, only if you use it.
If you don't use it, your game will remain pure. If you did complete the game with no B-Spec, would you still feel less accomplishment because it was available?


It would bother me too, but then I don't care if other people don't understand. It's there loss, as you already seem to understand.
Nanny'ed? So telling you why we think B-Spec should be included is more "nannying" than trying to take it away from everyone else? (Although you did say another mode, it shouldn't be necessary if people can just choose whether to use it or not. Instead of forcing people to chose a mode for what kind of racing they want to do, why not just allow both choices in one mode?)


Be sure you're not confusing me with others. You have been just as defensive about getting rid of it. This is what we call an argument, and there's nothing wrong with them if you do them properly. I've seen a few be a little rude towards you, and I thought I'd remind you that I wasn't involved.
Great. Why does it matter to you that we want B-Spec. Nobody specifically said you were wrong, but so far you've turned down every reason given why people want it in the game.
If you use it.
If you use it.
Wouldn't it be easier to just not use it, then to try to give PD a reason to get rid of it (which will probably not happen)?
Look, if you feel that strongly that B-Spec should be eliminated, you would be taking B-Spec not away from your game, but everyone's. If we keep it, nobody is forcing you to use the damn thing! Is it really that hard to just avoid it, and is it necessary to prevent everyone else from using it just to make the game more "pure"?



You continuously fail to answer any questions and simply complain that we are not letting you voice your opinion. We are not trying to change your opinions, just the ideas that you have that are false. For example, you obviously believe that the game will be easier if B-Spec is included. That is not true. You can easily challenge yourself by avoiding it.

the game is as hard as you make it. That's why GT is so great, you can make your own challenges to make the game more enjoyable. Some people won't get as much enjoyment without B-Spec, and by getting rid of it, you would spoil their fun, for what? Honestly, nothing that you couldn't have done yourself with a little self control.

Please, when you quote this, separate the parts you are replying to and answer under each part. That way you might actually answer some of the questions you have avoided answering.

Discussions like these are for sharing opinions. Don't get too into it.

 

[dylansan]

Maybe, but why should it be separate? It would be exactly the same races right? Why should it make me choose which mode to use at the beginning of the game, when I can choose while playing the game. It's hard to explain my point, but the two are already "separated" in that you can run it entirely in A-Spec or B-Spec if you choose. There's no reason why PD should spend time coding the entire sim-mode twice just because you want the choice. The choice is already there.

And yes, there was a bit of a misunderstanding, but when I asked if it should be removed, msako did say "it should be removed from sim mode as we know it."
not to pick a fight with msako, but you really weren't totally clear about some things, especially because for some strange reason you refused to quote each portion of the posts separately and answer them. A few times you strayed completely off the topic I asked and I had to ask again.
No hard feelings, anyway. Even if it did get out of hand, I still considered it a friendly debate. No name calling or flaming occurred, and we're still on topic. Again, no hard feelings.

 

[Tenacious D]

Not only should B-Spec be in, I'd like to see an extensive training system rather like what Turn 10 implemented in Forza 1. That was actually a lot of fun, training a bot by driving yourself. Similarly, you could train the bot by having it drive, and giving it gas and brake instructions by controller or pedals. This is something I proposed back in 2005, and it seems like Turn 10 devs have been reading our posts, because a number of my suggestions have ended up in the Forza series.

 

[bucket of water]

i think b-spec should only be avaible in endurance racing and only the ones over 2 hours long. i have better things to do then play playstation non-stop for 24 hours

also you should have to pay mr/mrs b-spec maybe per lap or hour.

would be nice to train mr/mrs b-spec too. slow in fast out. genrally how you would like to over take. it could be very simple. train him on a coner. use cones/paint to repercent objects/racing line

 

[msako]

I agree with you that training a bot is a good paradigm. I wouldn't call it B-spec, though, because B-spec is too crude, too unfinished and too limited to be considered anything more than a hacked assist. I stand by my theory that it was an internal developer tool that somehow leaked to the production version, though.

I would be interested if there were a way to really setup and train your bot to mimic your driving based on what it learned from you, making the same mistakes, same braking patterns, same driving lines, etc. I don't have Forza, nor do I play on the xbox (personal feelings about M$ more than anything else) but it sounds like what you're talking about is more in line with something that's reasonable.

Not only should B-Spec be in, I'd like to see an extensive training system rather like what Turn 10 implemented in Forza 1. That was actually a lot of fun, training a bot by driving yourself. Similarly, you could train the bot by having it drive, and giving it gas and brake instructions by controller or pedals. This is something I proposed back in 2005, and it seems like Turn 10 devs have been reading our posts, because a number of my suggestions have ended up in the Forza series.

 

[greenlightning]

Not only should B-Spec be in, I'd like to see an extensive training system rather like what Turn 10 implemented in Forza 1. That was actually a lot of fun, training a bot by driving yourself. Similarly, you could train the bot by having it drive, and giving it gas and brake instructions by controller or pedals. This is something I proposed back in 2005, and it seems like Turn 10 devs have been reading our posts, because a number of my suggestions have ended up in the Forza series.

Agree with you. What if we could choose are "B"-spec codriver at the start of the game meaning the "B"-spec becomes more of a playable character. Pick from some choices or create your own. Then what if you could fire and hire b-spec drivers. Perhaps be even able to hire someone elses b-spec driver. It would be interesting to even be able to race against your "B"-spec driver in arcade mode or say family cup. I would even say allow users to use "B"-spec in online races even if it meant an option where the whole field had to be "B"-spec drivers only. Basically I am saying that "B-spec" is a rather novel concept and easily could be expanded with more controls and options. I would even go out on a limb and say that ability to have "B-spec" record laps recorded also would be nice, but would be seperate or flagged as B-spec. However if online mode is done at least 1/2 way decent meaning easy to find good quality races and have established racing leagues formed. Then I would be spending the majority of my GT time online only.

 

[Griffith500]

I would be interested if there were a way to really setup and train your bot to mimic your driving based on what it learned from you, making the same mistakes, same braking patterns, same driving lines, etc.

I'm pretty certain this occurs in Live for Speed; it certainly did in earlier versions, where I started to notice the AI opponents stealing my race-start style (floor the throttle!) in the XF (a small FF car,) whereas before they'd barely spin the wheels at all.
Therefore, such a feature may well be possible with limited overhead in-game, but the issue comes with storing what the AI has "learned" and how it should apply it in-race; e.g. mimicking overtaking styles (and, presumably, adapting and developing said style in real-time) is something that would be considered leading-edge AI design/implementation in any environment, let alone a game. In short, we may not see something fluid and lifelike from the AI's behaviour in this respect. Instead, I'd expect a more "pathfollower" type implementation where the AI memorises braking points and overtaking points relative to the "default" for a given circuit. This of course could easily be "pointed out" by the player whilst the AI is making a lap of the circuit.

On the subject of Net-Nannying:

nanny'ed

Eh? Surely it's nannied? lol...

 

[Nift]

B Spec is the one thing that has kept this game from becomming a chore. In the endurance races there is just no challenge to driving around with 5 other cars for hours on end.

I will never complete 100%. I'm not that good and don't play it that often, but B Spec has gotten me past the boring stuff and earned me credits to buy cars I would rather use.

I know some guys who loath B Spec use because it somehow isn't playing the game. It's still a game though. The mission halls are difficult enough. And the 5 sec penalties you get tagged with because the AI slammed you into a wall aren't close to realistic.

 

[MoreTorque]

B-Spec mode comes in very handy.

In Enduros say if it's a 90 lap race I'll do 60 laps, and "Bob" does 30 inbetween.

It's also great if you want to get the race done asap.

 

[ERacer]

I say keep B-spec. If you don't like B-spec, then don't use it. Nobody is forced to use B-spec for the endurance races. Most of us prefer to drive ourselves and A-spec as many races as possible. I like to improve upon my racing. But, let's face it, for most of us at least, the epic task of sitting down for 24 hrs straight - with a few pauses for the necessary breaks - is going to be difficult to accomplish in one session. For most of us, it would require some advance planning and some serious down-time afterwards.

Keep in mind, you may not win on your first attempt at la Sarthe 24 hrs.

So, keep B-spec, but be true to your racing self.

ERacer

 

[mflintjer]

The options:

• "Yes, keep it like GT4"
• "Yes, but add a save feature for the middle of a race."
• "NO!! The game is all about driving, not watching!"
• "No, but take out the long enduros in it."
• "Make us A-spec the lot, but let us save in the middle."

My reactions...

• "GT4 B-Spec -- a good idea, need to modify to not allow 3x "Time""
• "Yes, but add a save feature for the middle of a race -- Can Michael Schumacher save his spot in the middle of a race and wait till after he takes a nap??"
• "NO!! The game is all about driving, not watching! -- agreed -- but the B-Spec does have its place -- maybe a spin-off game to be made with more options for B-Spec"
• "No, but take out the long enduros in it. -- If you take it out of one part, you need to take it out of all of it"
• "Make us A-spec the lot, but let us save in the middle -- again I ask...Can Michael Schumacher save his spot in the middle of a race and wait till after he takes a nap??"

I went with number 3 as it is the closest to what I liked in GT4, I think that B-Spec should stay with the game...especially if they bring the 24 hour at LeMans and Nurb races -- I did run all 3 24 hour races in GT4, but I won't be doing it again -- that was completely insane, and I take my hats off to those that can continue to do them over and over again.

 

[deadlyz33]

I think saving mid game should ONLY be allowed in endurance races. I can imagine people beating any race with ease while saving/loading saving/loading on the tougher maps untill they win. I dont really like the idea of that, if you mess up on lap2 or lap 8 then you have to deal with it, not restart a couple laps back.

 

[bjb]

I'd like to see mid race saves for endurance races (with or with out B-Spec), because who in the real woud races a car for 24 hours strait. What does schumacher have to do with endurance races? The guy does 60 laps in a hour. The enduros I've seen once the driver does his or hers stint then they go and have a rest.

 

[msako]

Good point. Endurance races done in real time would have to be done with a team in place. That would be fine.

I'd like to see mid race saves for endurance races (with or with out B-Spec), because who in the real woud races a car for 24 hours strait. What does schumacher have to do with endurance races? The guy does 60 laps in a hour. The enduros I've seen once the driver does his or hers stint then they go and have a rest.

 

[RACECAR]

What does schumacher have to do with endurance races? The guy does 60 laps in a hour.

Actually, he's raced in the 24 Hour classic before, courtesy of the Silver Arrows.

 

[bjb]

Actually, he's raced in the 24 Hour classic before, courtesy of the Silver Arrows.

Not by his self there would have been other drives and when he wasn't driving he most likely would have been resting for his next stint. B-Spec was a good idea it just had some problems and Off course people are going to cheat by saving but your not racing them so what's the problem.

 

[JohnBM01]

I've discussed the possibility of returning B-Spec in this video:



I know this is an old thread, but I'd still love to see this return out of fairness and the best possible chances of beating the game and winning races. I still believe this should return for GT5 for the most of fairness as well as something for those who can't make the time to compete in these races.