SNAIL Sep 6, 2015 Labor Day Weekend Endurance Race - Last update Sep 4

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I was working on a series with FlipJ but he's got a lot of life stuff going on so he won't be ready for a few more weeks.

The idea was this in a nutshell: Spec Race Cars. 30 minute races. Racing Hard tires. Normal wear. No need for pitting. Basically a 30 minute sprint race. I'm thinking three races. Race 1 is a qualifying race for Race 2 and Race 3 is reverse grid.

I knew we already have a Race Car Series so I didn't want to be exactly like that. So the races are shorter and there's no pit strategy. It's like a mix of that series and Sunday night's sprint races.

I was inspired by Pirelli World Challenge in how they have long races with no pit stops. SNAIL already has a 40 minute and 50 minute race in GT6. The Project Cars races are 30-40 minutes and 90 minutes. What's a good mix? I've found under normal tire wear they last a really long time. 30 minutes is no problem to push hard and still have plenty of tire. It depends on the car so I didn't wanna go too high and then limit what's possible to use. First testing was done with the BRZ GT300 Base Model. I'd like to make it a monthly season like Sunday SNAIL.

Thoughts?

They already had a Touring Car Series that used the TC race cars and had a tire change rule. It was RH and RS, 25 minutes, and you had to switch compounds. Very interesting but I think the gap was too far between the compounds. Maybe RH/RM or RM/RS. Maybe we can recreate that series but with some modifications.
 
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DesertPenguin09
I like that you had fun. I had fun too. That's all.


Random unrelated note: My mustache is getting long enough to twirl. Does anyone do this and have some good suggestions for mustache wax?
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Don't be that guy. Twirly staches are too punchable
 
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The next Sunday off is for Christmas/New Year's Eve. After that it's Superbowl, then Memorial Day and Labor Day again. We can do any Tuesday night but I need two weeks notice to request the day off at work. Normally I work nights on Tuesdays.

What do you guys think about having two classes? We know we can get full rooms so there would be 8 racers per class. The corner speeds need to be very different though so as not to cause too many lap traffic problems. I'm thinking SuperGT. a GT300 and GT500 class would be great. If not two of those cars, the same concept is good. Something with around 300HP and another with 500 or more and probably more downforce as well.

I am really into the idea of the Peugeot 908 HDI FAP Base Model at 50% Engine Power. It's a lot easier to control and is essentially an LMP2 car. We could do LMP2 and LMP1 with it at 50% power and 100% power.

If we don't like two classes, how about something like this again where we go for an hour or so (to have two races). What's the general consensus on tire compounds? Keep it at two or just one?
 
Multiclass with different cornering speeds is not a good idea. You want cars that will have cornering speeds closer to each other, and the power is where the difference is. You want the faster class passing on the straights, not mid corners. Passing in corners causes more crashes.
 
Falango
Multiclass with different cornering speeds is not a good idea. You want cars that will have cornering speeds closer to each other, and the power is where the difference is. You want the faster class passing on the straights, not mid corners. Passing in corners causes more crashes.
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I think we're good enough at going side by side that when it happens with a faster class they'll make it out of the turn way ahead and out of the way if the slower class.

If we have two classes that are similar how would we make them different? Separate by 50HP and a tire compound or larger power delta?
 
The difference in cornering speeds between a wide range of race cars is much closer than their straight line speed. If you have a faster class having to back out of the throttle because there are slower cars in front, you start backing up the fast cars that are behind them. Yes, SNAIL drivers should be skilled enough to do it, but even the pros fluff it up sometimes (pretty often in some race series). My suggestion stands as keeping cornering speeds closer, but the different classes will have much different horsepower (as they typically do, far more than 50hp, that's the difference between the fastest and slowest within the same class in some cases). The straights is where you want the faster cars to pass, and that is of course where they would prefer to pass.
 
DesertPenguin09
I think we're good enough at going side by side that when it happens with a faster class they'll make it out of the turn way ahead and out of the way if the slower class.

If we have two classes that are similar how would we make them different? Separate by 50HP and a tire compound or larger power delta?
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Accidents can still happen...

...and the issue here is the slower cars being in the way of the faster ones. If they can't even pull away enough mid-corner, the faster ones are just slowed down the entire way through, which would get pretty tedious, pretty quickly.

Why multi class, anyway? There's only 16 of us (at most, and on a good day), not 26. There's no fun in 8 people being spread out along a 2:00 minute course with 8 other people also spread throughout running their own race entirely, making the chance for racing against somebody even slimmer. Traffic is part of racing, it's not something that should be avoided. I can understand the whole separation in power for the lower division people to have more of a chance, but it seems like even that would have the opposite effect considering less power to work with equals later braking which then equals quicker cornering speeds. I guess that would balance it out considering how fast the ones with more power are cornering but still...they have more power for a reason.
 
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Yeah, the problem with class racing on consoles is the limited number of competitors IMO. 8 per class is kinda meh... I mean I had a good time Sunday and there were only that many in the end, but if people don't show for one reason or another it throws things off significantly. I'm not against the concept, but I personally enjoy deep fields of similar competition (what SNAIL is known for). Now I could be sold if the specs seemed like they might lend to a more mixed bag of results. Unfortunately this last event didn't quite give us that although the intent was there. Results still heavily ranked divisionally.
 
From what I gather, there's discussion trying to promote closer racing on track. With six to eight divisions racing within sixteen (at most) slots, it's just not going to happen. (Especially when some racers are just going to drop out because they're bored.) I think @MajorBlixem and @Rednose58 are using the best model for what's technologically available. Endurance races are not meant to be side by side. That's what Monday nights are for. Endurance is all about mental stability and a good plan.

If anyone that organizes endurance races is interested in my opinion:

I would ask past participants if they prefer closer division matching. I (Div. 5) would've liked racing with Div.4-Div.7 racers. But that's my opinion, and don't know if there would be enough to fill a grid.

What I really wonder (because I'm not as fast) is how the Div.1-Div.3 racers feel about closer division matching? Do they enjoy working through traffic and lapping slower drivers, or would they rather battle it out with racers that are closer to their own skill?

Having raced the past two endurance races and watching the sign up procedure, I've realized something. Two rooms, with alternates on standby, seemed to work out great. We had two full rooms the first time, and almost everyone completed the race. This time there just didn't seem to be enough serious interest to fill three rooms. Last minute back-outs, no-shows, and quitters put a damper on the whole event - for everyone. I'd like to think that if someone is fortunate enough to get a slot, they'd respect it enough to take it seriously. My hope: it would help prevent no-shows and quitters.

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As for quitters. It's been a full day since we had to deal with that. I'm disgusted. I have a seven year old son and I'm raising him to understand that the world is not here to entertain him. Also, he's to think of how his actions will affect others around him. He plays baseball and soccer and I make sure to reinforce the point that he's part of a team, and part of a league that's counting on him to be present and competitive. It's not about winning, it's about showing up, doing your best, and letting others know they can count on you.

For someone to quit an endurance race two-thirds of the way through, because they didn't see how they could win, is deplorable. How anyone can continually quit in the middle of race nights, and then show up again like nothing happened, is baffling to me. Signing up for a league makes a commitment to be present, and compete until competition is over. If someone isn't willing to commit to the league, they should find another place race. SNAIL isn't a facet of GT6 to be clicked on and treated like a Quick Match Lobby. This is a social community where we rely on and trust each other.
 
quitters.jpg
 
jnmjeeper
From what I gather, there's discussion trying to promote closer racing on track. With six to eight divisions racing within sixteen (at most) slots, it's just not going to happen. (Especially when some racers are just going to drop out because they're bored.) I think @MajorBlixem and @Rednose58 are using the best model for what's technologically available. Endurance races are not meant to be side by side. That's what Monday nights are for. Endurance is all about mental stability and a good plan.

If anyone that organizes endurance races is interested in my opinion:

I would ask past participants if they prefer closer division matching. I (Div. 5) would've liked racing with Div.4-Div.7 racers. But that's my opinion, and don't know if there would be enough to fill a grid.

What I really wonder (because I'm not as fast) is how the Div.1-Div.3 racers feel about closer division matching? Do they enjoy working through traffic and lapping slower drivers, or would they rather battle it out with racers that are closer to their own skill?

Having raced the past two endurance races and watching the sign up procedure, I've realized something. Two rooms, with alternates on standby, seemed to work out great. We had two full rooms the first time, and almost everyone completed the race. This time there just didn't seem to be enough serious interest to fill three rooms. Last minute back-outs, no-shows, and quitters put a damper on the whole event - for everyone. I'd like to think that if someone is fortunate enough to get a slot, they'd respect it enough to take it seriously. My hope: it would help prevent no-shows and quitters.

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As for quitters. It's been a full day since we had to deal with that. I'm disgusted. I have a seven year old son and I'm raising him to understand that the world is not here to entertain him. Also, he's to think of how his actions will affect others around him. He plays baseball and soccer and I make sure to reinforce the point that he's part of a team, and part of a league that's counting on him to be present and competitive. It's not about winning, it's about showing up, doing your best, and letting others know they can count on you.

For someone to quit an endurance race two-thirds of the way through, because they didn't see how they could win, is deplorable. How anyone can continually quit in the middle of race nights, and then show up again like nothing happened, is baffling to me. Signing up for a league makes a commitment to be present, and compete until competition is over. If someone isn't willing to commit to the league, they should find another place race. SNAIL isn't a facet of GT6 to be clicked on and treated like a Quick Match Lobby. This is a social community where we rely on and trust each other.
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But...I don't use quick match?
 
jnmjeeper
For someone to quit an endurance race two-thirds of the way through, because they didn't see how they could win
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Okay, nobody ever listens to me. I said I had done my last pit stop while off my normal pit strategy and had nobody to race against. There was no battle for position, even last place. So I stopped. I was tired, exhausted, and I was certainly starting to sweat a lot. I had been sitting in the same position for 80 minutes and decided I had enough fun for one night. I certainly enjoyed myself and regretted quitting because of the damage it did to the room's connectivity, but I still stand by the fact that the whole night was just for fun and you guys are taking it too seriously.

I've stated many times that in a real race for points I would never EVER quit mid-race. These were two different types of races. That's not to say I would quit a holiday race in the middle of a good battle just because I wasn't gonna win. I wouldn't never do that either.


Can we all just move on with our lives? :cheers:
 
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I will close out this thread by the end of the week so that we can move on and focus on the our Seasonal Racing. Thanks to everybody who participated. We had our glitches here and there and we will learn from them if we plan to do another event. I understand last minute things coming up that upset plans and I have no issue with that - but it was quite surprizing how many no-shows we had. Thanks to those who made an effort to let us know that they could not make it anymore, thanks to those who apologized afterwards and thanks especially to @TomMang_68 who could not make the racing, but still signed in to fulfill his comminications coordinator duties before he had to go.

Next time:
1. We will plan for 30% no-shows and last minute emergency bail outs (If 40 people signed up we will plan for 28 people actually showing up to race). There will be a priority list and some people may not race.
2. The HP resticions are not working very well over D1-D7. The experienced drivers get their lap times from gaining time in corners and that is where the inexperienced guys typically lose time. So, HP doesn't help a lot in the corners and overall lap times over 7 divisions. We saw the other night a D1 guy forgetting to power down and he was running away from other D1's. So, maybe we should divide the two rooms up D1-D4 and D4-D7 and still use 3 sets of HP reductions in each room. e.g D1-D4 where D4 is full power, D3 is full power minus x, D2 is full power minus y and D1 is full power minus z. In the other room you have D7 on full power, D6 on full power minus x, D5 full power minus y and D4 full power minus z. (Power reductions goes with a reduction of 5-7 PP in each step). This means D1-D3 drivers will signup for Room 1 and D5-D7 will sign up for Room 2 with D4 having the option to go to either to fill the gaps. In one room they will be on full power and the other room they will be on minimum power.
3. I think our communication system worked well enough. However, we should have waited untill everybody was in turn one and confirmed they see everybody else before we started. That would have potentially helped one person to race.
4. Keep the race settings at 5 or 6 minutes Qually, 90 min racing, prime and option tires with mandatory change at least once, fast fuel use and tire wear. Standard SNAIL settings for the rest.

In the end the "racing model" I am are trying to imitate is to be similar to Formula 1, but with a few more pit stops to increase the fun factor and putting some handicap on the "top teams" to close the gap a bit. To prepare for the race you need to do long runs on both tires to determine your race pace, tire degradation and fuel consumptiom. Then you need to do short runs to determine first laps, fast laps, pit lane times, in-lap times and out lap times. All of these are needed to go into your pit strategy calculator. When we open a practice room we need to spend a lot of time to get the above information before you should run short races to test your strategy calculator. Some guys come in and run laps, pit when tires are worn or fuel is low and carry on - that is ok too.

We don't need 90 minutes of wheel to wheel racing. Pit stop strategies will differ and that will make for partial wheel to wheel in the beginning of the race and if everything is working well, you will have wheel to wheel with your closest opponents in the last 10-15 minutes again. Part of the fun is when you race alone on the track while trying to figure out what the other guy is doing, or trying to figure out if your strategy is better or worse, or do I need to change, or am I good. Usually when I start thinking about these things too much I forget or miss a breakpoint and lose time - so, staying focussed while figuring out other's plans and strategies is an additional challenge.

If there is enough interest we could do this once every two months on a Tuesday night?
 
DesertPenguin09
Okay, nobody ever listens to me. I said I had done my last pit stop while off my normal pit strategy and had nobody to race against. There was no battle for position, even last place. So I stopped. I was tired, exhausted, and I was certainly starting to sweat a lot. I had been sitting in the same position for 80 minutes and decided I had enough fun for one night. I certainly enjoyed myself and regretted quitting because of the damage it did to the room's connectivity, but I still stand by the fact that the whole night was just for fun and you guys are taking it too seriously.

I've stated many times that in a real race for points I would never EVER quit mid-race. These were two different types of races. That's not to say I would quit a holiday race in the middle of a good battle just because I wasn't gonna win. I wouldn't never do that either.


Can we all just move on with our lives? :cheers:
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People did listen to you, but no matter the circumstances, show some respect for your fellow racers, the organizers, and yourself, and finish what you started. No one here will want to race with you if you're a quitter. Who cares where you are on track, in the standings, etc, man up and fight through a little bit of water that's sitting on your forehead. I'm sure there are more uncomfortable things you'll have to experience. The night of racing was for fun, as they always should be, but where's the fun in quitting?
 
If you folks are brainstorming for a new endurance series, you may find some ideas in the old Snail hardcore enduro Stamina Series, found here. Some of the drivers here may recall the series. If there are any specifics that you would like to know that aren't detailed in the thread(I recall some updates being sparse as the series came to a close) feel free to contact me.
 
I'm just upset that he thought I thought I was fighting for the lead when that was clearly not the case. That's all that bugged me.

About the HP, Rednose is right. Let's discuss this in the new thread that I made.
 
DesertPenguin09
But that's an open tuning series. I don't like that and I think for holiday races we should keep it spec.
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Nothing is mentioned about putting tuning in holiday races. Nor is it a "open tune" there are HP and weight settings for individuals. Also, I suck at tuning but this series is an insane amount of fun. I ran it for the first time last week and every Friday I'm not busy on I will run it again. Every thing that is posted on these forums isn't necessarily directed towards you.

You're starting to burn a lot of bridges in our small community and I highly suggest you take a step or two back before you end up stuck in public lobbies 6 nights a week.

Edit note: This is neither a direct attack or a prediction of the future. Just ease up a bit bro. I like you on the track and you're a good racer. But, I'm getting a little sick of defending you in private chats about removals from certain nights of racing. And will turn to the public eye to get my point across.
 
-So just because I respond right away that means you think that I think it was directed at me? Okay...

-What bridges did I burn today?

-If I'm "that annoying" in forums then just ignore my posts. There's a way to ignore users. Just do that and then race with me on track.

This is really started to piss me off though. People dislike me and want me completely gone for no reason other than I speak my mind more often than others. That's some messed up thinking. What am I, a witch in Salem? I was just about to apologize but no, I stand up for myself. I did nothing wrong. I just stir the pot. A lot. That's allowed to a degree. I don't insult anyone or anything in any way so there's really no reason to be upset with me. I just may have a differing opinion of something than others. No big deal. People are different. And again, I'm not a jerk, just very opinionated.
 
We're opinionated too, but a lot of your posts are very directed to what you want. People here are annoyed because you just want attention.

DesertPenguin09
.This is really started to piss me off though. People dislike me and want me completely gone for no reason other than I speak my mind more often than others.
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Sorry, don't agree with you here. You decided to announce someone else's prize pick, you constantly try to persuade people into making picks you want, you try to change SNAIL events you do not direct, you disrespect organizers and the rest of SNAIL by leaving tons of races, blame your fellow drivers when you were DQ'd from a prize, and that's just a start. You step on a lot of toes. Wake up.

In no way am I saying that being opinionated is bad. This is a forum, it's meant for opinions, but think about what you're posting before you do. You say you like to stir the pot, but when someone else speaks up about your controversial approach, you can't handle it.
 
I'm sure other people have opinions they would like to post but don't. I do and it gets perceived as wanting attention. False. I'm just one of the only people to actually have the balls to post my opinion regardless if how agreeable it is or isn't. Its mostly not agreeable but so what? Respond in a civilized manner instead of telling me to shut up or whateverand we can all get along.

About the posts where I question management, sorry. I like to seek improvement even if the thing in question doesn't need improvement. Its just fun discussion. It doesn't have to go anywhere

Time for fun! I may step I toes but you still have nine left :lol::lol:
 
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