Toyota Reveals 86 Successor: GR 86

Discussion in 'Auto News' started by GTPNewsWire, Apr 5, 2021.

  1. Danoff

    Danoff Premium

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    There is something satisfying about being able to really get into the performance of a car on the street and kinda live there. Turns a regular drive into an event. You can't do that with high powered cars. You punch it, and then back off and coast to avoid getting a ticket. My MR2 is my slowest car, also it's insanely fun to drive. I can have a blast in that car just keeping pace with the minivan in front of me.
     
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  2. ROAD_DOGG33J

    ROAD_DOGG33J Premium

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    I was hoping it would stay naturally aspirated. They improved on the power curve, which was the main thing they needed over the prior generation.

    Turbos you can can pretty much get in any other car now. An n/a sports car is rare.
     
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  3. girabyt3

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    Tbh, this looks so much better than the previous-gen 86 (especially that horrendous facelift Toyota did later), the curves really do make it look so sleek and it does look like the designers could finally nail the combo between Toyota and Subaru's respective design languages in one (front/Toyota-ish, back/Subaru-ish) :D... Can't wait to try it on even GT sport or GT7!

    Also, I knew I have seen that backend before :lol:

    b203b2e88031529c2bde915413e53134.jpg


    Also, you guys really need to see the new BRZ GT300... :drool::drool:

    793932.jpg rqq0cpsueivstaxxzo4w.jpg
     
  4. Razamataz

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    Looks like a lot like the Honda S660 from from the rear eh. Not keen on the front either, very bland. Like an Alpine A110 but with none of the charm.
     
  5. CarreraGT

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    I should have qualified: yes I have driven an 86, and while it is enjoyable to drive in terms of being nimble and light footed, it feels too slow. I think the engine character (or lack of it) has as much to do with it as the actual numbers.

    For reference, I have owned a range of cars (some faster than an 86, some slower) and currently own an E36 M3 (Euro) and a Passat R36. Neither are the fastest car on the road, but both have cracking engines and feel fast for what they are.

    Like I said, the 86 doesn't need 400hp, but 250-300 would be perfect for this type of car. Enough to be fun without ruining the balance.
     
  6. Eunos_Cosmo

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    I agree the old 86 had a pretty lukewarm engine. However, I think you should allow for the possibility that an extra 400cc of displacement and a substantially more useable torque curve could do wonders for the 86...even if the engine still isn't exactly a delicacy. Yes a straight six is a great engine type, but it's also a big heavy thing that totally dominates the chassis. You could never get the compact size and super low CoG with a straight six in a front engine car like the 86 has. But anyways, it's all conjecture until we actually see how the new engine performs.
     
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  7. CarreraGT

    CarreraGT

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    You could be right. It has to be an improvement over the original so will reserve judgement until I drive it
     
  8. ZEE

    ZEE

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    Did someone just make a mini NSX and not quite design it right???

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
  9. Eunos_Cosmo

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    I don't see it. At all. Even the tail lights look quite different when you look carefully, and that's the only thing remotely similar.
     
  10. Organ-Donor

    Organ-Donor

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    I’m looking for a new manual RWD car around $30k that’s fun and RELIABLE. I do really like the Toyota GR 86 but the other option I’m weighing out is the 370z. Anyone have any feedback? Reliability is my #1 concern as it will be my daily. Next is basic amenities like backup camera, modern interior, etc and also the driving fun factor is important regardless of power. I already have a fast tuned GTR, Z06, and Lexus RC350 F sport so it doesn’t need to be really fast. I assume the 370Z is faster, but I don’t know about the fun factor. Any feedback is welcomed.
     
  11. Eunos_Cosmo

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    I've driven both and prefer the 86/BRZ even though it is way way slower and nowhere near as good looking. 370z feels claustrophobic and the controls are not as nice as the 86. 86 has one of the best seating positions I've ever experienced and the chassis just feels so good. All of the controls are also excellent, though the shifter isn't quite as good as an MX5 or a typical Honda. 370z feels numb and muted by comparison, while simultaneously being uncomfortable. I've always felt like the 86 was a perfect car searching for a good engine and a better looking body.

    Its difficult to describe, but I feel like some cars you can really exploit from a controls and ergonomics perspective - a lot of 90s Hondas, a lot of Mazdas, and absolutely the BRZ. Driving them is joyous because you feel harmonious with the car. On the other hand some cars feel like they are kind of getting in your way - late model Focus ST, 370z and a lot of others, particularly if they have a tall dash and tall belt line. You can enjoy them, but you are doing so in spite of their ergonomics rather than because of them even if the actual dynamics of those cars are rather good. It's like playing basketball in a proper set of athletic kit vs playing basketball in a 3 piece suit...or something.
     
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  12. Organ-Donor

    Organ-Donor

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    I like the Toyota version a lot more but here’s a cool video of the BRZ

    I think I’m sold. It looks like it’s a blast to drive. They fixed the torque dip, and is a full second faster 0-60. I really like the looks of the new GR 86 over the last gen 86. The side profile reminds me of the Lexus RC350, especially with the duck tail trunk spoiler, the front kind of reminds me of Jag F type for the GR 86 and Porsche Panamara for the BRZ. The back reminds me of Lexus RC, civic or NSX. The only thing I’d do is lower it, there’s too much gap between the tire and wheel arches, and get slightly bigger wheels, they look a bit small. I heard that the older model 86/BRZ exhaust sounded bad but in this video it sounds decent. The only question now is reliability.

    Another video
     
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2021 at 1:52 AM
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  13. 05XR8

    05XR8

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    That's what I said. ;)

     
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  14. Danoff

    Danoff Premium

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    Given your current lineup I have no idea why you'd consider a Z or a BRZ. What you need is a proper mid-engine or even rear engine vehicle. Daily drive one of those other cars.


    Edit:

    I'm gonna vote Toyota MR2 here. You can daily drive it, the 3rd gen is dirt cheap, and they're super fun.
     
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2021 at 4:51 AM
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  15. Organ-Donor

    Organ-Donor

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    I want brand new with a warranty and all new amenities inside the interior. I’m trying to keep mileage down on the other cars. The Lexus is going to my girlfriend. Yeah the MR2 is a fun car but again I want new with warranty and new tech inside the interior.
     
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2021 at 9:32 AM
  16. Danoff

    Danoff Premium

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    That does narrow your options.
     
  17. Organ-Donor

    Organ-Donor

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    6161DE89-B744-4263-8248-51BAB21CAD28.png @05XR8 Yep, the GR 86 side profile is very similar to the Lexus RCF. Just needs bigger wheels.
     
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  18. Eunos_Cosmo

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    The BRZ is the closest FR layout car I've ever driven to delivering MR cornering feel, especially at corner exit - they really do rotate nicely (and I'm not talking about wild drifts) and feel so buttoned down, especially with better tires. The Straight Pipes guys described the BRZ as a Porsche on a budget. I own a Porsche Boxster and I think that's a reasonable claim.
     
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  19. Danoff

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    I've driven a BRZ and a 911 (not a Boxster). I can't really say I got to push the BRZ, so I couldn't say for sure. I think probably an NA Miata (I say NA because that's the only one I've driven) is closer in my estimation. It's a good question, what is the most MR-feeling FR car out there. Having driven an E30 M3, I'd still say miata.

    Ok this is me getting off topic and onto a classic Danoff jag, so I'll keep it brief (too late). The quintessential feeling of the MR is the feeling of lightness in the front end and corresponding willingness or eagerness to rotate in the balance of the car. The reason that I name the miata is that if you push that car, there is basically no inertia anywhere to push back. You feel like there's barely a car at all. I hate to be one of those people trotting out "the answer is always miata", especially because the real answer is always MR2. But given that the question here is specifically front engine, maybe the answer is miata.
     
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2021 at 5:26 PM
  20. Eunos_Cosmo

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    into the rabbit hole....I've driven an NB, NC, and ND but never an NA. They certainly feel light and eager...but I'm not sure they feel MR...or at least, to me, they don't provide both parts of the equation - lightness of the front PLUS corner exit poise. I especially don't think ND's feel particularly MR mostly because they list around so much and the updated ones now have enough power to really challenge rear traction on corner exit (which only happens on stupidly powerful MR cars). In terms of overall poise, I think the BRZ/86 is better than any stock Miata, though Miatas have superior suspension design and can feel incredible when modified. One of the NBs I drove was turbocharged with around 200hp and it was on coil overs and really aggressive tires. One of the most exciting things I've ever driven.
     
  21. Danoff

    Danoff Premium

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    I feel like we need @homeforsummer to sort this one out for us. :tup:
     
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  22. 05XR8

    05XR8

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    I think the only other car, I can think of, close to the GR/BRZ, is the 2-series. Other than that, there are no manual FR 2-door, 4-seater coupes/sedans, for the price of the boxer twins.
     
  23. homeforsummer

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    It's an interesting one for sure. The realistic answer is... none of them :lol: You really can't get a mid-engined feel without the engine in that place, simply due to the physics involved.

    That said, the cars mentioned so far - MX-5s and the 86/BRZ - are probably about as inertia-free and nicely balanced as any car from the past three decades, and particularly once you start playing around with modifications the way they behave is about as close to the dictionary definition of "handling" (that is, responding to exactly what a driver is asking the car to do) as you'll get. Still not mid-engined in feel necessarily, but with similarly few vices as a good mid-engined car in terms of behaviour. Plus that extra element of stability you get having the engine in the front rather than ahead of or on top of the rear axle.

    BRZ/86 is off to a better start than a stock Miata, but in stock form both have their issues. The BRZ/86's are the tyres, because while the low-grip strategy was admirable, it makes the car nervous when grip is already low (such as when it's raining), and the rest of the time it muddies the steering feedback as those tyres just didn't have the right structure to deliver feedback as they should. Sadly, I've not yet driven one with decent tyres so they've all been "imperfect" so far. But otherwise they're great. Low CoG, nice balance, and a very stiff structure so the suspension can do its stuff. And "my" 86 Blue Edition had factory Sachs suspension which also gave it the best ride of any 86 I've driven - early ones could be just a little firm.

    DqRvC4yWsAAkbvc.jpg

    There are a few gens of MX-5 obviously so there are different faults to each... NA/NB it's chassis stiffness. They improved over time, but it's definitely my least favourite thing about those cars, as it corrupts precision and makes the thing feel like it's falling apart on rough roads. I've only driven mk3.5s as far as NC goes so can't comment first-hand on pre-facelifts, but I'm led to believe their main issue is poor steering feel and inconsistent spring/damping front to rear. 3.5s are better, so I'd say weight... but it's still lighter than an 86! NDs, it's steering feel and not enough body control. The both combine to make a car that's actually pretty sketchy when you really get up into it.

    Good stuff? NA/NB it's steering feel (the earlier car being subjectively better for me, typically on narrower tyres), and wonderfully friendly balance so you can huck it about like mad whether you're on the road or on track. NC, good balance again, and what feels like better structural stiffness than any of the other generations - it's definitely a more "solid" car. Probably the best basis for a trackday car as the longest/widest. ND? Feels very light on its toes, and at low speeds the roll makes it feel much like the NA - albeit without the same nice steering or friendly tyre breakaway.

    The surprising thing though is that in pure handling terms the best MX-5 I've driven was an NC, tweaked by BBR. They did relatively little - Goodyear F1s (I think), a decent spring/damper combo (not coilovers) and thicker anti-roll bars. Only drove it on the road, but it had the best balance and most progressive grip of any MX-5 I've driven. More so than BBR's own NDs I've tried (though with very simple tweaks they're way better than stock too). Both pictured...

    IMG_E4195.JPG

    IMG_8491.JPG

    My personal preference, particularly on the road and with our road conditions over here, is for stuff that isn't too extreme. I've no great desire to try an MX-5 on semi-slicks as the joy of those cars for me isn't outright grip but their balance, and when you move one slider the other one goes down (at least until you're making big power and have a track to exploit it). So I like the way they do things, and the best ones are those that enhance the characteristics already in the cars.

    Same would go for the 86 I assume - though the elephant in the room here is that while I've no great issue with the old 86's engine in most conditions, the ND's engine in particular (and its gearing) is better suited to making the most of the chassis.

    While I'm here, a few other observations:

    Until the ND2 came along, the best modern "MX-5" was the Abarth 124. The chassis felt a bit stiffer, the suspension less floaty, and the extra torque made it even easier to play with the car's attitude at lower speeds.

    Abarth-124.jpg

    Most of my mid-engined experience comes from Boxsters and Caymans. They're lovely things to drive in general, probably some of the best sports cars at any price point in fact (and from the ones I've tried at least, I tend to prefer them to 911s). But I do have more fun in MX-5s and the like, mainly because even a basic Boxster these days goes like stink so there's a limit to how much of its performance you can use on UK roads. I did get a chance to drive a 987 Spyder on road and track last year though and that's probably one of the best things I've ever driven - even ignoring the engine/transmission, which is fabulous, the balance, adjustability and steering feel in that car is top-level stuff.

    Ditto the Alpine A110. Much "lighter" feeling than a Boxster/Cayman (and not just because it is lighter) - it's a very delicate thing and floats over a road surface (without feeling all at sea) but if you want to talk "balance" in a Best Motoring sense where you look at the way everything you interact with contributes to the whole, that's also an all-time great.

    Caterhams? Brilliant, but not mid-engined feeling at all. Ultimately nose-heavy, most apparent on the slim-tyred ones (though those are still my favourites).

    Going back to the 86 briefly... if that's any Porsche, it's not close to a Boxster but a 924/944, ain't it?...
     
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2021 at 9:20 PM
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  24. Danoff

    Danoff Premium

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    I knew I could count on you to extremely thoroughly settle that discussion @homeforsummer. I forgot about the Abarth too. Thanks for reminding me that I still need to go drive an A110 one of these days, maybe I'll visit the UK at some point.... and probably an Alpha 4C too.
     
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2021 at 9:43 PM
  25. Eunos_Cosmo

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    I'm very jealous that you've been able to drive an A110. I really think that is close to the ideal car for me...shame they will never bring it over the pond. Next time I go to Europe I'm going to make it a personal goal to drive one.
     
  26. Awong124

    Awong124

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    I've tracked my friend's mildly modified FR-S before I got my 86. He just had some bolt on stuff, coilovers, exhaust, wheels, tires. Though I've had plenty of track experience in the FWD car I owned at the time (and still own), it was the first time I've ever driven a RWD car hard. And in that first track experience with the FR-S I was immediately quicker than S2000s with similar modifications, and drivers that tracked them all the time. I lost out on the straights, but more than made up for it in the corners. So I am very convinced that an 86 with just the same tires as an S2000 will beat it around most tracks.

    At the same track day, another friend of mine of similar skill level was driving an S2000 with similar modifications, only using Toyo R888s compared to the Dunlop Star Specs I was on, was doing 1:58s compared to my 2:00s. If I was more familiar with the FR-S I probably would have been even quicker. The first gen 86 was an extremely good car other than the engine. I actually had absolutely no interest in the FR-S prior to that experience because I thought it was slow, but that track day convinced me to get one myself.

    My 2019 86 is currently running on 245 RE-71Rs and it's pretty amazing. I just bought KW V3s, and I'm going to install them in the coming weeks. Can't wait!
     
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2021 at 6:27 AM
  27. homeforsummer

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    The A110 is, I think, probably the most significant sports car since the original Elise, and other than the changing requirements of a quarter century of the car market leading to a few changes, they're pretty similar in concept. And it splits the difference between the Elise and Cayman nicely in ability too.

    I wouldn't get hopes up over the Alfa 4C though :lol: It's maybe worth a drive just to experience, but difficult to like. Though they did sell them over there so you wouldn't need to go to Europe for that.
    Yeah, that sounds pretty realistic to me. I think a very skilled driver in an S2000 could gap a very skilled driver in an 86 (on the same tyres) as its level of ultimate ability is probably higher and the horsepower difference would start to show, but stick two average trackday drivers in both cars and I suspect most would get more from the 86. You get more feedback in the Toyota (the S2000 is really compromised for me on steering feel) and while it's easy to catch the 86's engine off the boil you need to be even more on top of it in the S2000, because they've hobbled it with such long gearing. It's pretty heavy too. I reckon an RX-8 would be right up there with both of them on track too.

    The ND Miata too. Dial down the roll a bit and I think an even greater number of drivers would go quicker than any of the above. It's certainly way easier to drive quickly on the street just because the torque is so much more accessible and it's got closer gearing. Several years back I did a test with an ND1 and the facelift GT86 and the ND walked away from it pretty much everywhere.
     
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  28. LeGeNd-1

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    Re: styling, in my opinion the FT86 Concept still looks the best. Aggressive but not overstyled, unlike the production model. This second gen goes too far in the other direction and looks too soft and bulbous IMO.

    [​IMG]
     
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  29. Awong124

    Awong124

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    The S2000 is less than 100 lbs heavier than the 86, and the RX-8 is I think another couple hundred lbs above that. But yes, I think those three are very evenly matched cars. The thing I don't like about the S2000 is that the wheelbase is too short, and it makes it nervous and twitchy. The 86 is a much more neutral and balanced car. When I was riding with my friend in his S2000, he was making corrections with the steering all the time. In the FR-S, I just turn and that's it.
     
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2021 at 3:50 PM
  30. homeforsummer

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    I was talking more relatively than outright - for a 2-litre open-topped roadster 2800lbs is pretty chunky. The best part of 500lbs more than an ND2! And barely lighter than my UK-market FD with its ridiculous amount of turbo plumbing and all its options. The 86 and RX-8 at least have the excuse of things like metal roofs, more glass, extra seats and in the RX-8's case extra doors.
    The wheelbase is part of it but I think there's geometry at work too. I'd love to drive an S2000 that someone has fiddled with to remove some of the nervousness (and fit a shorter final drive ideally...). And again, poor steering feel so it's not as easy to tell what your inputs are actually doing. I love the idea of the S2000 but if I ever bought one I'd have to budget several grand extra just to "fix" it...
     
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2021 at 7:26 PM
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