Why do the "Pro's" use bumper cam?

[Zuel]

I rather enjoy the cockpit view, I can see around some track better. Even though the bumper view gives you a larger view, it would be nice to have the option to remove the wheel/hand setup.

 

[Neenor]

The cockpit view is nice, obviously lots of work will go into these cockpits.

Personally I think it's a bit of a shame because from reading previous posts its a case of flicking over to cockpit view, admire it, then going back to bumper view so that you can be competitive!

 

[SR-71_Blackbird]

I use inside cam as I dont see the cars size on the bumper cam nearly as well as inside or roof. I used bumper in GT1,2,3 and roof in 4, 5p inside.

 

[niky]

If you play it for simulation you have to use cockpit view... other views are like cheating.

And you have to be using the analog pad... not the sticks! The analog sticks are cheating! And wheel users are the cheatingest cheaters of all.

Sorry... I have no love for your position and your 60" High Definition TV. As long as I'm racing on a puny 28" CRT, on which the cockpit dials look like little glowing ants dancing on the lower half of my screen and I have a window smaller than my PSP screen to see the road through while I'm sitting the government-sanctioned six feet away, I'm staying with the bumper cam, thank you.

When we set up for shows with the big HDTV, though... with the big panoramic screen right in your face, cockpit cam goes on.... simply because you can still actually see something on the screen.

 

[machschnel]

And you have to be using the analog pad... not the sticks! The analog sticks are cheating! And wheel users are the cheatingest cheaters of all.

Sorry... I have no love for your position and your 60" High Definition TV. As long as I'm racing on a puny 28" CRT, on which the cockpit dials look like little glowing ants dancing on the lower half of my screen and I have a window smaller than my PSP screen to see the road through while I'm sitting the government-sanctioned six feet away, I'm staying with the bumper cam, thank you.

When we set up for shows with the big HDTV, though... with the big panoramic screen right in your face, cockpit cam goes on.... simply because you can still actually see something on the screen.

My situation is very similar. Sure on a massive TV, cockpit view would increase my current field of view when using cockpit on a small TV - but imagine the field of view increase on bumper cam!

 

[machschnel]

Dude, it's called "attention focus", if you are noticing the wheel when racing then you are clearly at a disadvantage, have you tried doing some mental exercises to try and improve your concentration?

Just a thought, but seriously, you shouldn't be noticing steering wheel's when you are in "race mode", there are techniques you can practice to block out or at least notice and then disregard unhelpfull information.


Out of curiosity, if you are in a competitive race with someone for more than a lap or two, do you still notice the wheel?, it's an entirely different thing to say you "see" the wheel and "notice" it during play, sure I see the wheel all the time, but I never pay any attention to it, so my mind manages to ignore it as it doesn't help me go any faster.

It's there for the times when you are viewing a replay etc, or someone is watching someone else drive, how weird would it look to have no wheel and no hands ! But again, the old grey matter would overcome this wierdness and after a few laps it wouldn't pay any attention to it.

For me, it's nothing to do with concentration. The wheel is just a waste of space. Cockpit view is like having your hands cut off, putting your stubs against the tv, then playing. That is the only way it becomes even slightly realistic. If it's just your preference, fair enough, if you honestly think it is more realistic.................

 

[kayman]

My situation is very similar. Sure on a massive TV, cockpit view would increase my current field of view when using cockpit on a small TV - but imagine the field of view increase on bumper cam!

WRONG. it will not increase your field of view one iota!!!!


IT will increase the size of what you can see but field of view remains the same.

 

[ItsHim]

Because they need every bit of advantage they can get to make it to the top of the leaderboard.

Wearing protective headgear limits your field of view, being strapped into a racing seat limits your field of view, the seating position in a race prepared car limits...

Let's see what head tracking can do about this, I would love to be able to glimpse a bit to the left or right so I can see properly into a corner of keep an eye on traffic.

But I have to agree, an option to not display a virtual wheel in on board view would be nice.

 

[TokyoDrift]

On a side note, I use in car view because I think it the more "authentic" view, also, if I switch to bumper cam I am instantly a little faster, not sure why, but I still prefer in car view. I wouldn't call bumper cam cheating as such, I would just say that cockpit view is the more authentic and the one I prefer.

Like you, I am faster using bumper cam, and it's probably all down to what you are used to, as well as being able to more easily position your car on the track. Even though we now have a nice looking, "authentic" interior view, I still prefer bumper cam (or hood came if it's there) for the reasons I mentioned.

With practice, I'm sure you will find that you are equally fast with the interior view, even to the point where if you went back to bumper cam, you would be slower for a while because it's no longer what you are used to.

As for those saying that using bumper cam is cheating, how is that so? Bumper cam is a standard feature provided in the game Yes, interior view is more authentic, but with its fixed camera is no more realistic that other camera views provided.

Cockpit view is like having your hands cut off, putting your stubs against the tv, then playing. That is the only way it becomes even slightly realistic.

Let's just think about this for a moment... It's not really like that at all, is it?

 

[machschnel]

WRONG. it will not increase your field of view one iota!!!!


IT will increase the size of what you can see but field of view remains the same.

Sorry, bad choice of words, what I meant to say is that it will increase the size of what I see - I'll still see the same things, just larger. To get as clear a view using cockpit as I do currently with bumper, I'd need a TV several sizes up, in which case I would still see more in bumper view anyway!

 

[kayman]

correct, its why a look to apex or the head turning with the wheel is needed so your view isnt as restricted when you turn. You would be able to see that car on the inside a bit easier, and hopefully in enough time to stop a collision.

 

[machschnel]

correct, its why a look to apex or the head turning with the wheel is needed so your view isnt as restricted when you turn. You would be able to see that car on the inside a bit easier, and hopefully in enough time to stop a collision.

Has anyone played one of the PC sims with head tracking? Is it effective? An annoyance? Sounds very interesting......

 

[TokyoDrift]

Sorry, bad choice of words, what I meant to say is that it will increase the size of what I see - I'll still see the same things, just larger. To get as clear a view using cockpit as I do currently with bumper, I'd need a TV several sizes up, in which case I would still see more in bumper view anyway!

It doesn't matter what size TV you have, or how close you sit; cockpit view with a single screen and static camera will always show much less of the tarmac and scenery relative to bumper/hood cam.

correct, its why a look to apex or the head turning with the wheel is needed so your view isnt as restricted when you turn. You would be able to see that car on the inside a bit easier, and hopefully in enough time to stop a collision.

Actually, a "look where I want to look" is the only way it will work properly, because there is no point having the camera point where the wheel is turning/pointing. So there you are, drifting around the corner, staring at the apex, and you put on some opposite lock - suddenly the camera looks away from the track completely...yeah, real useful!

With a fixed camera, it's a reasonable compromise because at least the camera points where the car does, meaning it is easier to judge the positioning on the track. Having three screens will help, as will head, or even better, eye tracking.

 

[kayman]

Have you actually used it???

I have, and it works very well and is a good substitute where head tracking is unavailable.

I don't understand why you would want to be looking away from the direction of your drift???

If you put on opposite lock you car should be heading in the direction you are looking. At this stage the car is heading sideways and you could be looking at a wall. It doesn't make you look out the side window but rather changes the angle at which you are looking out of the front of the car slightly so you can better see the direction your car is heading.

It takes a little while to get used to but its definatly saved me a few times when I've been sim racing. I still use it now even though i run 3 screens.


Also again I say, why does it matter if you can see the road directly in front of the wheels. Your reaction time is not quick enough to adjust to anything you see at that point. And even if it was, if you car is in the wrong position at that point it is already too late. You should be looking ahead (even if using bumper cam and you probably do this anyway).

Cockpit can be advantageous in a race situation as well because you will see a car diving down the inside of you when its just past your B pillar where as in bumper cam you will only see it when its past your bumper. Meaning you could very well turn in on someone who is legally in front of you and you should give way to as they have the inside line.

I'm not saying either is better as it's personal preference as to what you use. But one should not give any "advantage" on a hot lap to the other because its all about the processing of information in your brain and reacting with inputs to the controller/wheel. It definitely could make some people faster because its far easier to see things for them.

 

[TokyoDrift]

I don't understand why you would want to be looking away from the direction of your drift???

If you put on opposite lock you car should be heading in the direction you are looking. At this stage the car is heading sideways and you could be looking at a wall. It doesn't make you look out the side window but rather changes the angle at which you are looking out of the front of the car slightly so you can better see the direction your car is heading.

You said that one option is for the camera to track with the steering wheel (so the direction the wheels are pointing, effectively). With opposite lock during a drift, the wheels would be pointing away from the direction the car is heading, and if the camera tracked with the wheels, you would not be looking in the direction the car is heading.

I hear what you are saying about it only shifting the view slightly, so that begs the question, why bother at all? It's just something else that's "not quite realistic", and something you either get used to, or not.

 

[kayman]

I will have to draw you a picture...

Here you can see the first car is sideways with opposite lock to the corner.

And the second car is driving on the racing line (hey its a rough picture )

The blue arrows signify the direction you are looking.

(think about which way the wheels are pointing and which direction your steering wheel points). If you are in control you will always be looking in the direction your car is heading.

Again have you used it before??? I was skeptical before i used it too, but it is a good tool when head tracking is unavailable.

Ideally it would be scalable from maximum to completely off.

I suggest next time you are driving a car on the road take note of where you are looking when you turn a shallow corner with slight input of the wheel (ie not out the side window) and then sharp corner (ie probably past the a pillar and into the side window for anything more than 90 degrees). This is what the look to apex mimics and it sure as hell beats a stationary head with the eyes only glued on whats directly in front like what we currently have in prolouge.

 

[ItsHim]

In real life I guess I focus on the point where I want the car to go and judge how to adjust the steering accordingly. A thing I never managed to do in console games. So it could be quite interesting. Or put a silly thing on my head called Move

 

[TokyoDrift]

Here you can see the first car is sideways with opposite lock to the corner.

And the second car is driving on the racing line (hey its a rough picture )

The blue arrows signify the direction you are looking.

(think about which way the wheels are pointing and which direction your steering wheel points). If you are in control you will always be looking in the direction your car is heading.

Again have you used it before??? I was skeptical before i used it too, but it is a good tool when head tracking is unavailable.

Ideally it would be scalable from maximum to completely off.

I suggest next time you are driving a car on the road take note of where you are looking when you turn a shallow corner with slight input of the wheel (ie not out the side window) and then sharp corner (ie probably past the a pillar and into the side window for anything more than 90 degrees). This is what the look to apex mimics and it sure as hell beats a stationary head with the eyes only glued on whats directly in front like what we currently have in prolouge.

A fine drawing there it has to be said! It perfectly illustrates your "look to apex" solution, but it also demonstrates how ineffective it would be if all it did was purely track with the wheels.

To answer your question, no, I've never used any form of tracking in a racing game. Don't get me wrong, I'm sure that done right it can really help those of us using just one screen. As ItsHim just mentioned, maybe if SONY developed a strap-on!!

 

[Blitz187]

In real life I guess I focus on the point where I want the car to go and judge how to adjust the steering accordingly. A thing I never managed to do in console games. So it could be quite interesting. Or put a silly thing on my head called Move

Even if it looked silly, if it works well for me, I'd use it Although a big glowing ball hanging above your eyes is probably not ideal come to think of it...

 

[regnar]

The bumper cam view is probably preferred because it's less distracting, seeing more of the track gives you more time to react to a situations.

My personal preference is using the cockpit view, though I still find it to be to too static,
the in-car camera appears be fixed, not independent of the car. The video below of GT5,
shows the drivers head/camera not really fighting much the with g-forces in the turns or bumps. the experience is still too calm.
After playing NFS:Shift barring some of it's faults, the camera seems to reacts to acceleration & deceleration, movement accross bumps etc.,
making for a more realistic experience.
Maybe allowing for adjustments of FOV & seat hight & some simulation of peripheral view might make the cockpit view more desirable.

The examples below are not meant to be a GT vs Shift, but that the movement in the cockpit view in GT could be enhanced a bit more.




GT5




NFS:Shift

 

[Kryz11]

NFS shift simulates the ROOKIE experience. GT5 simulates the PRO experience. After few years on race track, everyone gets use to the bumps and G forces, it just seems as walk in the park. I Find the G forces in NFS too distracting, I know a lot of PC gamers never play Sims with full 100% G force camera simulations because its too distracting.

 

[kayman]

NFS shift simulates the ROOKIE experience. GT5 simulates the PRO experience. After few years on race track, everyone gets use to the bumps and G forces, it just seems as walk in the park. I Find the G forces in NFS too distracting, I know a lot of PC gamers never play Sims with full 100% G force camera simulations because its too distracting.

I am a pc sim racer and I have 100% Head movement and 100% look to apex. I guess I am going to have to record and put up a video.


Again I would like to state that look to apex would not replace a head movement system. It would ideally be there for people who dont have the ps eye and cant use head tracking.

 

[TokyoDrift]

I'm all for options that we can turn on or off, so bring it on!

A video would be good kayman, as I, like many others, have never experienced a dynamic camera in a racing game before 👍

 

[meeekael]

In-car is far too claustrophobic. With a massive TV it might be okay, but I'm yet to try it.

NFS Shifts bonnet cam has got it pretty much spot on.

 

[kayman]

Bah I've taken a video (and it took forever to export from rfactor) and it doesn't show the look to apex after it exports (but it does when I'm looking at the replay).

Anyway looking at it again it doesn't look like it moves as far as i thought.

Looks like your head only moves around 10 degrees at full lock. And most of the time you never use the full 900 degrees anyway so it will move even less than that.

I guess i just remember it being weird when I first used it. But now that im used to it, it really isnt much at all. Much like how when i first started playing rfactor the head movement was so distracting, but now i dont notice it either.

 

[CoolColJ]

The bumper cam view is probably preferred because it's less distracting, seeing more of the track gives you more time to react to a situations.

My personal preference is using the cockpit view, though I still find it to be to too static,
the in-car camera appears be fixed, not independent of the car. The video below of GT5,
shows the drivers head/camera not really fighting much the with g-forces in the turns or bumps. the experience is still too calm.
After playing NFS:Shift barring some of it's faults, the camera seems to reacts to acceleration & deceleration, movement accross bumps etc.,
making for a more realistic experience.
Maybe allowing for adjustments of FOV & seat hight & some simulation of peripheral view might make the cockpit view more desirable.

I honestly feel all those videos posted of GT5 demos are old builds, as they don't have the Time Trial physics.
Did you see the cockpit view from the Time Trial? Quite a bit better than what was shown in Prologue and these recent demo vids as far as motion goes

[YOUTUBEHD]iA5vqAbde4M[/YOUTUBEHD]

 

[kayman]

Yeah Cool, I was much happier with the demo cockpit view than what came before it. Although my preference would be for a little more head movement, but again if they can make it adjustable, everyone can get what they want!

 

[eSZee]

I honestly feel all those videos posted of GT5 demos are old builds, as they don't have the Time Trial physics.
Did you see the cockpit view from the Time Trial? Quite a bit better than what was shown in Prologue and these recent demo vids as far as motion goes

Hopefully that means they made the physics better, and not that it was an older build.
Like r1600 said before, the pro physics in TT didn't work for me. Having done road racing and autocross in real life, the physics felt awkward in TT. It's probably the tires, as Amar said, but it didn't feel correct.

 

[CoolColJ]

physics was fine, and the best of any GT game so far, only the tyre model needs work

 

[JDMKING13]

physics was fine, and the best of any GT game so far, only the tyre model needs work

I felt the tires are better in the TT then in GTP. N3 in GTP are very hard to push the car while the N3 in the TT demo, I had no problem pushing the Z. I drive with a G27 though so might be different for others.