Groundfish
(Banned)
- 4,363
- United States
Did SPORT ruin Gran Turismo?
- Thread starter Groundfish
- 105 comments
- 6,598 views
- 6,764
- Ontario
- SvennoJ
- SvenZ
Aggressive competitive AI is no problem, have you played Driveclub?
Damn what a bunch of 🤬 on the hardest difficulty level. I swear they team up against you to take you out. Same in Motorstorm.GTS has pretty smart AI, in avoiding and making room that is. That's probably also where all the bad learned behavior comes from. The AI will make room for you if you stuff it up the inside or dive bomb. They are beyond polite and always leave space. The only time they get competitive is when they are confused, a lap behind, suddenly speed up to overtake you, then realize they are about to get lapped and slow down again
The problem with GT AI is, they are only good when you race them in a slower car. Always has been that way. The upgrade to win philosophy is still there, except it turned into downgrade not to (automatically) win. But there are also some corners where the AI slows down for no reason, it could definitely use some improvements learning the tracks.
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- 472
- United Kingdom
- 48,772
- Australia
That's why it would be mandatory for Sport Mode. The way it is now with Etiquette videos.
There's no real guidance for players that choose to want to learn. For those that choose to.
The ones that run through everything, I been mentioned that. That's the whole purpose of this little discussion you're responding to. It's for those that want to learn. They're not going to run through it, if they're choosing to learn.
- 2,194
- Isle of Wight, UK
What I find infuriating with the AI's pace isn't just how slow it is, but how strangely the cars arrive at driving so slowly.Aggressive competitive AI is no problem, have you played Driveclub?
GTS has pretty smart AI, in avoiding and making room that is. That's probably also where all the bad learned behavior comes from. The AI will make room for you if you stuff it up the inside or dive bomb. They are beyond polite and always leave space. The only time they get competitive is when they are confused, a lap behind, suddenly speed up to overtake you, then realize they are about to get lapped and slow down again
The problem with GT AI is, they are only good when you race them in a slower car. Always has been that way. The upgrade to win philosophy is still there, except it turned into downgrade not to (automatically) win. But there are also some corners where the AI slows down for no reason, it could definitely use some improvements learning the tracks.
It's particularly noticeable in the faster cars in the game - boot up a Red Bull Standard, Merc F1 or Super Formula race. The AI is slow thru corners, not because of braking for too long or being hesitant on to the throttle, but because of unnecessarily bleeding off speed in the middle of corners - often with full on braking at or before the apex. It really makes no sense what I'm supposed to infer from this as the player and in these fast cars it can make it incredibly difficult not to be caught unawares and brake checked by AI in the middle of the corner.
I don't understand what purpose this possibly serves. If you copy the AI in this you're going to learn some extremely bad driving habits and you won't be anywhere near any kind of genuinely quick pace - and it isn't fun beating someone who lets you win, computer or human. It can feel pretty insulting, to be honest, being a lap ahead on lap 5 on an AI race, when I know I am a thoroughly sub par Gran Turismo driver in actual fact.
I feel it would be vastly beneficial for the offline AI to lose this hand-holding, stroke the player ego approach. Surely PD has more pace data up and down the DR ranks than they could possibly know what to do with? Let me load A, A+, World Tour pace into the AI so beating them becomes an exercise with any value beyond credit grinding.
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- 126
- United Kingdom
Are you new to this internet thing??
- 1,549
- Singapore
- XSquareStickIt
Sorry for taking so long to get back to you on this. I wanted to have a go at the offline arcade custom race with AI set to professional before I got back to you.
I did a race at Spa, five laps, in the Genesis road car. Rolling start with the interval set to the farthest apart, 50m, and I started 20th on the grid, which started me before Stavelot of "lap 0". I was on Comfort Soft tyres, and the AI on the default Sport Hards. By the time I crossed the line to start lap 1, I had already taken one guy and hunting down 18th, about 32 seconds off the leader. I caught said leader at the home straight at the end of lap 4, then cruised to a victory with a clean, unopposed lap 5. This was literally my first session with zero practice or knowledge with the car, and the brake pedal of my G29 was giving me issues throughout.
It's more competitive than the campaign AI for sure, but it's still rubbish. No two ways about it. I'm only an A rated driver who's rusted severely in the year and a half since I last touched Sport mode.
The AI still brakes way too much for every corner, so much so that I outbrake them on Comfort tyres. They still slow down mid corner where no one half apt at racing would, resulting in bewildering collisions. They still feel like they're on rails, and are barely affected by contact, causing you to be the one to eat most of the impact of any contact incurred. This is most evident in one make races. Sometimes they try to defend, but still leave enough of a gap open on the inside. I dive to take that inside line, only for them to slam the door shut as though I'm not even there. And the moment you pass them, they simply give up altogether. Hell, they don't even use full throttle sometimes, if you look back on the replay. Again, this is on PROFESSIONAL, with a TYRE ADVANTAGE. Races with the AI isn't a race; it's a time trail with mobile roadblocks. No one can excuse or defend this. No one.
The reason I bring this up is because I believe that a strong, compelling single player campaign is what has drawn so many people to the franchise to begin with. I said in my original post that Gran Turismo Sport's main strength over other sims in the market is its wide player base, allowing for well populated daily races. Gran Turismo Sport claims that anyone from ages 7 to 77 can play, but I think what it has unknowingly done is to captivate players from age 7, and condition them to become motorsport fans that actively participate till they're 77. If the GT series solely focuses on the e-sports aspect, I think it's going to continuously alienate its fanbase, and the hardcore racers won't bat it an eye because of its simcade physics. I think it's important for the e-sports aspect of Gran Turismo to charm, captivate, and cultivate casual players and groom them into becoming more curious about cars, their culture, their history. That's what the older Gran Turismo titles has done for me, being a "playable encyclopedia". I used to spend hours just scrolling through the picturesque dealerships of GT5, soaking up the jazz music, seeing how cars progressed throughout the years, the colours they shared, etc.. FIA and e-sports was just something else for me to be curious about, and I sunk my teeth into that too, when I had zero interest in real life racing prior.
Ultimately, I think solely focusing on the e-sport aspect of the game will ultimately damage the brand of Gran Turismo. I know nothing can compare with racing against real human players, but it just saddens me that Gran Turismo Sport threw away everything the series has been known to do well (aside from graphics) to focus on e-sports, and it feels to me like they've bitten off way more than they can chew with the penalty system. The last few updates have only seemed to turn it off and on, from overly sensitive to handing out licenses to kill. It's like they don't even care anymore. What we end up with is a product that doesn't do old Gran Turismo well, but fails at being a new Gran Turismo too. It's just a sad mess.
- 492
- United States
I've noticed more than once that if you fall back too far in an AI race they seem to slow down making it easier to catch up. Is that my imagination or am I right or is the AI too slow?GTS has pretty smart AI, in avoiding and making room that is. That's probably also where all the bad learned behavior comes from. The AI will make room for you if you stuff it up the inside or dive bomb. They are beyond polite and always leave space. The only time they get competitive is when they are confused, a lap behind, suddenly speed up to overtake you, then realize they are about to get lapped and slow down again
The problem with GT AI is, they are only good when you race them in a slower car. Always has been that way. The upgrade to win philosophy is still there, except it turned into downgrade not to (automatically) win. But there are also some corners where the AI slows down for no reason, it could definitely use some improvements learning the tracks.
- 472
- United Kingdom
Gran Turismo AI has never been great, least I can remember complaints about it for many years.
So how can the AI element of GTS ruin the franchise ? We're off topic at this point.
So how can the AI element of GTS ruin the franchise ? We're off topic at this point.
- 3,828
- Canada
- Kaizen-Teian
AI gets boring in any game if you play it long enough. AI is for the average GT player (approx. DR C). Most people here aren't average. And play a lot more than the average.
If they invested more into AI, it would be for what 5% of players? And how long before they get bored of that? I don't think it'd be worth the time. Or to put it another way, it isn't worth the time to create AI competition for Sven Jurgens on the Nurb. He doesn't need it and would probably out grow it in a week.
More experienced players will use the AI accordingly. Car handicap, slower tires, extra pit stop, games you can make up ... Lots of creative ways to use it for training. I do Custom races and start by trying to pass all the cars in 3 laps, then 2 laps, 1 lap...
If they invested more into AI, it would be for what 5% of players? And how long before they get bored of that? I don't think it'd be worth the time. Or to put it another way, it isn't worth the time to create AI competition for Sven Jurgens on the Nurb. He doesn't need it and would probably out grow it in a week.
More experienced players will use the AI accordingly. Car handicap, slower tires, extra pit stop, games you can make up ... Lots of creative ways to use it for training. I do Custom races and start by trying to pass all the cars in 3 laps, then 2 laps, 1 lap...
- 245
- United States
Thats too extra for me...its a video game and Its not like im trying to compete in GT4 or WEC events, so i play just for fun and set up my own experience.
I think your asking to much from developers who did the best the could. And yes I believe a lot of products and software have planned obsolescence so im not surprised anymore when something i like turns to crap like a video game
- 412
- United States
- wheelmansteve
My recent time played stats will bear out my vote.
TonyJZX
(Banned)
- 3,945
- Australia
The fact they are going to a GT7 and not a GT Sport 2 tells you what they thought of this iteration.
By the same token, I think the AI in GT5/6 and Sport isnt really good enough for Ps3 let alone Ps5.
They really need to up their game in that regard.
I still feel like PD wasted peoples' time and money... with the Ps3 they rushed GT6 out the gate a cash grab and GT5 was late and killed early.
GT Sport should not have been the only release of the Ps4. That machine deserved better.
THey should have release Sport as a day one back in 2014 and did a GT7 say in 2018 so it had time to percolate on that machine.
And now GT7 is a 2022 release MAYBE.
I think when they look back in a decades time or maybe even 15yrs they will could GT5/6, SPORT and GT7/8 etc. and this one title will stick out as a sore thumb.
By the same token, I think the AI in GT5/6 and Sport isnt really good enough for Ps3 let alone Ps5.
They really need to up their game in that regard.
I still feel like PD wasted peoples' time and money... with the Ps3 they rushed GT6 out the gate a cash grab and GT5 was late and killed early.
GT Sport should not have been the only release of the Ps4. That machine deserved better.
THey should have release Sport as a day one back in 2014 and did a GT7 say in 2018 so it had time to percolate on that machine.
And now GT7 is a 2022 release MAYBE.
I think when they look back in a decades time or maybe even 15yrs they will could GT5/6, SPORT and GT7/8 etc. and this one title will stick out as a sore thumb.
- 6,764
- Ontario
- SvennoJ
- SvenZ
Mount Panorama is the worst track when it comes to AI. They suck at the Nord as well but still miles better than Bathurst.
Yes, they are rubber banded. They will speed up after you pass them. It was extreme in the Suzuka endurance race. I set myself the challenge to win that with CRB plus Handicap bonus (de-tuning the car). So I start slow, conserving fuel and tires, the AI starts in a procession and then the last one lets me catch up, I pass him, he speeds up and passes me again, so we both end up at the next car. We pass that car, that car speeds up, passes me and is now having a race with the other car. And this continues until they pit, I'm basically herding a bunch of cats to the front of the pack.
They pit, I gain a bunch of places and the game begins fresh, now further up the pack. Pass, get re-passed, cars bunching up in front of me etc. The rubber banding also allows them to set impossible lap times, sudden 2 seconds faster than they have been going all race. The weirdest thing is the blue flag behavior though. You lap a car, they speed up to pass you again, sometimes going faster than possible, then slow down to let you by since you're about to lap them. Repeat.
The AI does make good moves sometimes. They can undercut in corners but most of the time they step on the brake on the apex
- 48,772
- Australia
Heres one of many reasons why Gr.3(GT3) and Gr.4(GT4) is cool. Players should take time to watch similar racing, There is race craft , strategy, difference in performance and patience.
As the commentators say at the start, everyone are cautiious. Noone wants to be a hero. One says it's a bit boring atthe beginning, but it will ramp up as the race goes on.
The race doesn't have to be an hour long for players to behave. That's where etiquette comes in. Nevermibd the numpties that either lead the race are at the back or middle of the pack. I'm sure many of us had epic races and horrible experiences. However, players should race like below.
Although we don't hear what's going on in the cockpit, the commentators gibve some idead of what the drivers and teams are doing during the race. Many players could learn from this. Again, I know many players could care less, but it's another way to actually enjoy racing real world cars, in a virtual world.
As the commentators say at the start, everyone are cautiious. Noone wants to be a hero. One says it's a bit boring atthe beginning, but it will ramp up as the race goes on.
The race doesn't have to be an hour long for players to behave. That's where etiquette comes in. Nevermibd the numpties that either lead the race are at the back or middle of the pack. I'm sure many of us had epic races and horrible experiences. However, players should race like below.
Although we don't hear what's going on in the cockpit, the commentators gibve some idead of what the drivers and teams are doing during the race. Many players could learn from this. Again, I know many players could care less, but it's another way to actually enjoy racing real world cars, in a virtual world.
LeGeNd-1
Premium
- 7,253
- Australia
- GTP_LeGeNd-1
Actually, people are actively sandbagging their driver rating in this game. Because unless you're a top player you can get more points winning races in lowers splits than being a backmarker in top split. So, no, the game doesn't reward you for being the best you could possibly be
Also detailed telemetry and MoTeC export feature, which were present in GT6, are both removed in GTS. In its place we just have replays, which are letterboxed and the pedal inputs aren't even time synced to what's happening on screen
So, no, it doesn't have the proper tools to help you to get better either.https://www.gran-turismo.com/us/gt6/manual/#!/howtorace/datalogger
https://www.gran-turismo.com/us/gt6/manual/#!/replay/motec
This is what I mean when I say, PD has good ideas, but their execution often falls flat. If you just watch the FIA finals the broadcast is impressive, but under the surface there a looooot of problems.
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- 5,430
- Codemasters (EA)
- PJTierney
Smurfing is a problem in pretty much any game with a ranked system, so I agree with you there. While the execution of their philosophy has shown cracks over time I greatly value the intent behind what they wanted to do when designing this game; it's a natural progression from the License tests of old.Actually, people are actively sandbagging their driver rating in this game. Because unless you're a top player you can get more points winning races in lowers splits than being a backmarker in top split. So, no, the game doesn't reward you for being the best you could possibly be
Also detailed telemetry and MoTeC export feature, which were present in GT6, are both removed in GTS. In its place we just have replays, which are letterboxed and the pedal inputs aren't even time synced to what's happening on screen
https://www.gran-turismo.com/us/gt6/manual/#!/howtorace/datalogger
https://www.gran-turismo.com/us/gt6/manual/#!/replay/motec
This is what I mean when I say, PD has good ideas, but their execution often falls flat. If you just watch the FIA finals the broadcast is impressive, but under the surface there a looooot of problems.
MoTeC was great in Gran Turismo 6; I remember using that data to balance all the Group C cars for a Le mans race. Got them all within a tenth of each other over a lap too.
- 16
- United Kingdom
- MChapp1867
GT Sport was my introduction to taking online racing seriously, and is still my go-to for a good standard of competitive racing. It's just super easy and streamlined to get into competitive racing. I've recently started getting into ACC as well, and coming back to GT Sport the drop in quality of feedback and physics etc is really noticeable, but on console at least GT Sport is still the best option to race online.
That's on the players, surely? I think PD have made the best steps yet in terms of encouraging fair, safe driving in a competitive environment, and although the penalty system has flaws I think it generally works in facilitating clean racing. The next step I guess would be how to properly punish those who clearly just dive bomb into Monza T1 etc, but I'm not sure how you do that. The folks who go out of their way to ruin racing for everybody else are going to do it regardless, I think, and I'm not sure how you stop them.
That's on the players, surely? I think PD have made the best steps yet in terms of encouraging fair, safe driving in a competitive environment, and although the penalty system has flaws I think it generally works in facilitating clean racing. The next step I guess would be how to properly punish those who clearly just dive bomb into Monza T1 etc, but I'm not sure how you do that. The folks who go out of their way to ruin racing for everybody else are going to do it regardless, I think, and I'm not sure how you stop them.
Groundfish
(Banned)
- 4,363
- United States
I feel like they began with an idea of pure fair clean online racing.
I feel like over time they allowed the loudmouth bully you tube and twitch world to cause them to loosen the standard they set out with...
“Motorsport is a non contact sport”
I feel like they should have left everything with penalties as it was at release, they should have stuck to their guns imo.
Instead they lowered their standards to submit to the angry bully voices on you tube and their complaints and to me my experience has been a downward spiral of ever worsening dirtier play.
I know and realize full well the argument that in a real race a little rub doesn’t affect either car and isn’t penalized.
I get that but in a game like this I feel that to truly be a fair contest of skill that things need to be a bit stricter than reality, given the games physics not preventing arcade maneuvers...
There’s no real fear of crashing via the game physics, imo there needs to be fear of the pen system. It’s amazing how player behavior instantly changes in races with tire wear x10 or more.
The players are capable of good play, it’s just that there’s nothing to stop them from going arcade. I wish PD had never lowered their standards to lowest common denominator.
What do you think?
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- 245
- United States
it also sounds like people dont mess with damage controls ...do any of these racing games do this. I kind of like how the WRC games do it but its a rally game. I just don’t believe you can get a computer to recognize democracy or fairness
Groundfish
(Banned)
- 4,363
- United States
Well in games with more serious physics crashes actually can cause damage, but also pushing the cars over the limit is more likely to cause you to go off.
Strangely it’s easier to drive below limit in a good game and becomes progressively more challenging as you get more and more slip angle goin.
In GTS you can just run all over grass and curbs hitting others and nothing happens.
The only fear is induced via penalty or tire wear.
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- 245
- United States
lol i actually wrote that same thing and took it out. Yea the curb dynamics as you slam into them kind of funny, but im not nit pickey and dont hyperfocus on every physical element
- 5,430
- Codemasters (EA)
- PJTierney
I got the Platinum in early 2018 (and moved on to other games) so I haven't seen how the system has evolved; I'm mainly thinking of what they shipped at launch.
I think giving people the motivation to be faster (by having rankings and esports), and the tools to do so (Circuit Experience is a tool so good I'm amazed no developer did it that well before) was a noble goal. Despite any issues the game may have ended up with, that goal/philosophy is what makes GT Sport special in my opinions. More racing games should strive to have something like that.
tldr: I appreciate GT Sport for its intent, and not specifically its execution of said intent.
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TonyJZX
(Banned)
- 3,945
- Australia
The road to hell is paved with good intentions... further we judge people, companies, countries on what they actually DO and not what they intend to do... we also judge others by their actions and ourselves by our intentions.
There's a lot to unpack there and I apologise for that. In fact I agree with the above person.
I will always give PD and Sony a bit of slack due to past history and rooting for the underdog such as it is... Sony is a $100 bn company going up against a $1.8 trillion dollar company.
I'm not a fan of devs who have a formula and are delivering that formula year on year with a new paintjob like EA or COdemasters (who are the same thing now...)
And that's one of the things that frustrates me. You can see the greatness that awaits (!) just under the surface of GT Sport. The bones are fantastic... there's truly some unique ideas there.
Its the ultimate execution and stagnation that hurts the most.
Its this pent up demand that will ultimately make GT7 a title that hits 15mil. 20mil. copies.
There's a lot to unpack there and I apologise for that. In fact I agree with the above person.
I will always give PD and Sony a bit of slack due to past history and rooting for the underdog such as it is... Sony is a $100 bn company going up against a $1.8 trillion dollar company.
I'm not a fan of devs who have a formula and are delivering that formula year on year with a new paintjob like EA or COdemasters (who are the same thing now...)
And that's one of the things that frustrates me. You can see the greatness that awaits (!) just under the surface of GT Sport. The bones are fantastic... there's truly some unique ideas there.
Its the ultimate execution and stagnation that hurts the most.
Its this pent up demand that will ultimately make GT7 a title that hits 15mil. 20mil. copies.
Junkman55
(Banned)
- 470
- United States
Auto racing is a sport it was never meant to be played as a game in real life. GTS gave us the chance to do both in real life on a PlayStation consoles it may sound silly but it did it with a DS4 controller and a simulator FFB wheel set up.
The sport side of GTS give us one of the best online racing competition for participation for every driver skill then most software on the market to day at a price most can afford. I think online racing is the answer for Esports it can bring us to anyplace in the world by internet to get a bunch of Sim Drivers together to see who is the fastest with out leaving there home.
The sport side of GTS give us one of the best online racing competition for participation for every driver skill then most software on the market to day at a price most can afford. I think online racing is the answer for Esports it can bring us to anyplace in the world by internet to get a bunch of Sim Drivers together to see who is the fastest with out leaving there home.
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- 724
- Germany
- GTRP_Krypto_
I dont want to race (in this game stupid) AI and test cars for myself or whatever you can do when its just offline. The sportsmode has still its big weaknesses but (admittedly very) slowly they're getting somewhere. No other game provides organized races on that range and for that price in the first place.
