Do you believe in God?

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Do you believe in god?

  • Of course, without him nothing would exist!

    Votes: 616 30.5%
  • Maybe.

    Votes: 368 18.2%
  • No way!

    Votes: 1,035 51.3%

  • Total voters
    2,018
Inhabitants of Egypt, not the same inhabitants of Ancient Egypt, the culture and especially the Ancient Egyptian practice of religion is long gone.
A very debatable point, given that many areas of ancient Jewish law are not practiced today either, unless you had provide me with details of the last time the Jewish state executed a gay man for being gay, or anyone for having a tattoo?


Jewish writing in ancient Egypt, Jewish slaves in ancient Egypt, numerous grand monuments in ancient Egypt, documentation of the biblical plagues in ancient Egypt, evidence of dead infants in ancient Egypt, the collapse of the Egyptian empire, all consistent with the biblical texts... It's pretty much like 90% of the crossword puzzle exists....given they didn't have video or photo cameras, there is enough evidence there were a great number of Jewish slaves in Ancient Egypt.
Only if you (as you are constantly doing) either maker up this evidence or misrepresent it to a massive scale. You have yet to provide proof of either slavery on the scale of a million plus people, the exodus of those same numbers or the arrival of them in any other country at all.


Not only that but God proved The Egyptian Pharoahs or there Idols were not true Gods and preserved the Nation of Hebrews to increase in number and thrive and succeed when they abide by Gods rules.
In which case would you explain exactly why god has not done the same to all of the non-Jewish inhabitants of the world for the last 2,000+ years? By your logic god should be doing the exact same to them, yet Judaism remains a minority religion in relation to the worlds population.

From Haaretz, Israel's oldest newspaper...

http://www.haaretz.com/jewish-world...laves-in-egypt-or-is-passover-a-myth-1.420844



Of course, what do the Israelis know about Jewish history?
I wouldn't hold out much hope, I've already tried that one and he just ignored it.

Well, in all seriousness, I don't think there's a doubt, even among scholars, that a great leader of what would become the jewish people led a mass of people out of Egypt and that for these people he was both a liberator, a man inspired by God and a lawmaker.

You don't need to believe in God to accept this, and indeed you may not believe in God and still accept this. True also that you may believe in God and not accept the entirety of Moses story as told in the Torah, later imported to be part of the Bible. In any case, please oh atheists, don't let yourselves get too tight on the detail of a million or a few thousands. Just say the full historic account is unclear and that you do not think the Bible is to be regarded as a book that depicts historic events in a way scientifically acceptable. And therefore that you disagree with the religious view as defended by dxld.
Unfortunate that is part of the problem. A great deal of doubt exist among scholars that these events ever took place (including Jewish scholars), given that no evidence exists for mass slavery of Jews in ancient Egypt, for a mass exodus or a mass settlement an another country. No its conceivable that evidence for one of these could have been lost, but for all three?


It's bad enough when people say the Bible is Pro Slavery when God Chose Moses to free them from oppression and slavery.
Actually most people have simply pointed out the contradiction that the bible is anti-slavery when Jews are slaves, but pro-slavery when the Jews are masters of slaves. Either way significant sections of the bible advocate slavery.


Would you prefer God did nothing and let the Jewish people say ho Hum, Slavery is better than being unemployed, let's just help the Egyptians build more grand monuments and tombs and pyramids.
Acknowledging the Historical Event of Hebrew Slaves produces positive more than negative results. During the time of the American Civil War the story of Moses and the freedom of the Slaves was used as inspiration to call for the freedom of African Slaves.

Let me add one more reason why remembering the Hebrews time as slaves in Egypt is important! "Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it."
The use of it as a moral story doesn't make it an actual event, no matter how much you would like that to be the case.
 
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Well, this may be all bollocks but I think Moses is credited in more non-religious (and non-jewish) texts and references than probably many of other significant figures of the pre-roman era.

wikipedia
In Hecataeus
The earliest existing reference to Moses in Greek literature occurs in the Egyptian history of Hecataeus of Abdera (4th century BC). All that remains of his description of Moses are two references made by Diodorus Siculus, wherein, writes historian Arthur Droge, "he describes Moses as a wise and courageous leader who left Egypt and colonized Judaea."[72]:18 Among the many accomplishments described by Hecataeus, Moses had founded cities, established a temple and religious cult, and issued laws:

After the establishment of settled life in Egypt in early times, which took place, according to the mythical account, in the period of the gods and heroes, the first . . . to persuade the multitudes to use written laws was Mneves [Moses], a man not only great of soul but also in his life the most public-spirited of all lawgivers whose names are recorded.[72]:18
Droge also points out that this statement by Hecataeus was similar to statements made subsequently by Eupolemus.[72]:18

In Artapanus
The Jewish historian Artapanus of Alexandria (2nd century BCE), portrayed Moses as a cultural hero, alien to the Pharaonic court. According to theologian John Barclay, the Moses of Artapanus "clearly bears the destiny of the Jews, and in his personal, cultural and military splendor, brings credit to the whole Jewish people."[73]

Jealousy of Moses' excellent qualities induced Chenephres to send him with unskilled troops on a military expedition to Ethiopia, where he won great victories. After having built the city of Hermopolis, he taught the people the value of the ibis as a protection against the serpents, making the bird the sacred guardian spirit of the city; then he introduced circumcision. After his return to Memphis, Moses taught the people the value of oxen for agriculture, and the consecration of the same by Moses gave rise to the cult of Apis. Finally, after having escaped another plot by killing the assailant sent by the king, Moses fled to Arabia, where he married the daughter of Raguel [Jethro], the ruler of the district." [74]
Artapanus goes on to relate how Moses returns to Egypt with Aaron, and is imprisoned, but miraculously escapes through the name of YHWH in order to lead the Exodus. This account further testifies that all Egyptian temples of Isis thereafter contained a rod, in remembrance of that used for Moses' miracles. He describes Moses as 80 years old, "tall and ruddy, with long white hair, and dignified."

Some historians, however, point out the "apologetic nature of much of Artapanus' work,"[75]:40 with his addition extra-biblical details, as with references to Jethro: The non-Jewish Jethro expresses admiration for Moses' gallantry in helping his daughters, and chooses to adopt Moses as his son.[75]:133

In Strabo
Strabo, a Greek historian, geographer and philosopher, in his Geography (c. AD 24), wrote in detail about Moses, whom he considered to be an Egyptian who deplored the situation in his homeland, and thereby attracted many followers who respected the deity. He writes, for example, that Moses opposed the picturing of the deity in the form of man or animal, and was convinced that the deity was an entity which encompassed everything – land and sea:[70]:1132

35. An Egyptian priest named Moses, who possessed a portion of the country called the Lower Egypt, being dissatisfied with the established institutions there, left it and came to Judaea with a large body of people who worshipped the Divinity. He declared and taught that the Egyptians and Africans entertained erroneous sentiments, in representing the Divinity under the likeness of wild beasts and cattle of the field; that the Greeks also were in error in making images of their gods after the human form. For God [said he] may be this one thing which encompasses us all, land and sea, which we call heaven, or the universe, or the nature of things. . . .
36. By such doctrine Moses persuaded a large body of right-minded persons to accompany him to the place where Jerusalem now stands. . . . ''
[76]
In Strabo’s writings of the history of Judaism as he understood it, he describes various stages in its development: from the first stage, including Moses and his direct heirs; to the final stage where "the Temple of Jerusalem continued to be surrounded by an aura of sanctity." Strabo’s "positive and unequivocal appreciation of Moses’ personality is among the most sympathetic in all ancient literature." [70]:1133 His portrayal of Moses is said to be similar to the writing of Hecataeus who "described Moses as a man who excelled in wisdom and courage."[70]:1133

Egyptologist Jan Assmann concludes that Strabo was the historian "who came closest to a construction of Moses' religion as monotheism and as a pronounced counter-religion." It recognized "only one divine being whom no image can represent. . . [and] the only way to approach this god is to live in virtue and in justice."[77]:38

In Tacitus
The Roman historian Tacitus (ca. 56—120 AD) refers to Moses by noting that the Jewish religion was monotheistic and without a clear image. His primary work, wherein he describes Jewish philosophy, is his Histories (ca. 100), where, according to Murphy, as a result of the Jewish worship of one God, "pagan mythology fell into contempt."[78]Tacitus states that, despite various opinions current in his day regarding the Jews' ethnicity, most of his sources are in agreement that there was an Exodus from Egypt. By his account, the Pharaoh Bocchoris, suffering from a plague, banished the Jews in response to an oracle of the god Zeus-Amun.

A motley crowd was thus collected and abandoned in the desert. While all the other outcasts lay idly lamenting, one of them, named Moses, advised them not to look for help to gods or men, since both had deserted them, but to trust rather in themselves, and accept as divine the guidance of the first being, by whose aid they should get out of their present plight.[79]
In this version, Moses and the Jews wander through the desert for only six days, capturing the Holy Land on the seventh.[79]


So, ok, it's disputed but it's not a clear cut case. One can't be all scientific about it and still dismiss Moses existed or even say nothing supports the claim of his existence in history.

Of course, nothing in this adds or detracts to the belief in God.
 
Well, this may be all bollocks but I think Moses is credited in more non-religious (and non-jewish) texts and references than probably many of other significant figures of the pre-roman era.
He is indeed, however very few (if any) are actually contemporary with the events described, which causes a problem. Not just with if he existed, but if his actual actions tally with the claims.



So, ok, it's disputed but it's not a clear cut case. One can't be all scientific about it and still dismiss Moses existed or even say nothing supports the claim of his existence in history.

Of course, nothing in this adds or detracts to the belief in God.
It doesn't change a persons belief in god, but it does raise significant questions regarding the religious text and its accuracy. Keep in mind that its dxld who has claimed that evidence exists to support he exact version laid out in the texts.
 
What would I prefer?

I'd prefer, IF god was real, to not give his creations free will then punish them for it. And for making greed and aggression trademark characteristics of humans.

Pretty shoddy workmanship if you ask me. Any decent foreman would have halted production and gone back to the drawing board.

Also, I can't go back and reedit in the quote, but the line about modern slavery being non-existent is utter nonsense. More people are in forced servitude now than when slavery was legal and acceptable. If you think slavery is not an issue in today's society, you are living in a dream world.

Very nice little post.

There are are a number of people, among them anomalists, Forteans, and those who have actually experienced such phenomena, who think that there must be some insane, non-human higher power which likes to trick and toy with humans and their feeble minds. I believe that if there is such a non-corporeal "intelligence" or "god" governing the affairs of the universe, it is almost certain to be inorganic, and is likely to be quite indifferent to the interests of humans, and sometimes malevolent.
 
It's this sort of devaluing of facts and evidence that allows religion to continue existing at all.
I must confess I missed that point in @Hun200kmh post first time around and have to agree with you, quite a difference exists between a few thousand and 1 to 2 million, particularly given the size of the world population at the time, let alone the regional population.

In this case the numbers involved are significant to the claim, in the exact same way it would be wrong to ignore the dimensions of the Ark in discussions regarding the feasibility of its use as described.
 
Let me add one more reason why remembering the Hebrews time as slaves in Egypt is important!
How about a single scrap of significant evidence in support of it? Something you have failed to do. And at this point you are ignoring clear instruction from an administrator:
Provide evidence of your claim that one million Jewish slaves - 8% of the world population at the time - were held in Egypt. Or retract the claim.
 
In this case the numbers involved are significant to the claim, in the exact same way it would be wrong to ignore the dimensions of the Ark in discussions regarding the feasibility of its use as described.

Would that be the Ark of the Covenant, or Noah's Ark?

Researchers have recently discovered Babylonian cuneiform tablets which describe the flood Ark as circular in shape, like a coracle.
 
Would be the Ark of the Covenant, or Noah's Ark?

Researchers have recently discovered Babylonian cuneiform tablets which describe the flood Ark as circular in shape, like a coracle.
Noah's, and out of interest do you have a source for that?
 
Actually, a perfectly circular coracle could still have those dimensions, it's just that they would be called perimeter and diameter.
 
Actually, a perfectly circular coracle could still have those dimensions, it's just that they would be called perimeter and diameter.
However the Bible clearly states that the Ark was a certain length, breadth and width, each measured in cubits. It doesn't mention perimeter or diameter, or the small detail that the Ark was (may have been) round at all. Still, the fact remains that they could dig up a round Ark tomorrow, complete with fossilised poo of every animal that ever existed, and Biblical literalists everywhere would have a hairy fit, because it would mean the Bible was wrong about something. They would therefore be forced (by their own close-minded attitude to the Bible) to denounce it as fraudulent.
 
Those who Bless the Jews are also blessed, so a Filipino who Blesses a Jew is also blessed. Those who curse the Jews will be Cursed, like Hitler and the Nazis were Cursed.

Well it's still not fair then. If God has specially blessed the Jews, but I can be blessed if I bless a Jew.... then the Jew in question has two blessings (default blessing from God plus one because of me), but I am left with only one blessing.

Also, what if someone curses me or my people? Will they be cursed like the Jew-cursers, or is that another area of inequality?
 
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Well it's still not fair then. If God has specially blessed the Jews, but I can be blessed if I bless a Jew.... then the Jew in question has two blessings (default blessing from God plus one because of me), but I am left with only one blessing.

Also, what if someone curses me or my people? Will they be cursed like the Jew-cursers, or is that another area of inequality?
God also blessed the children of Ishmael, the Arabs! Arabs and Jews do not agree with each other, but they do have blessing s from God as stated in the Book of Genesis.

"And as for Ishmael, I have heard you: I will surely bless him; I will make him fruitful and will greatly increase his numbers. He will be the father of twelve rulers, and I will make him into a great nation."
Genesis 17:20

Look at the riches of the Arab nation, and it's obvious this came true.

And BobK, I provided enough scraps of evidence to produce a big pile of evidence, your mind just won't accept the completion of the puzzle.
 
God also blessed the children of Ishmael, the Arabs! Arabs and Jews do not agree with each other, but they do have blessing s from God as stated in the Book of Genesis.

"And as for Ishmael, I have heard you: I will surely bless him; I will make him fruitful and will greatly increase his numbers. He will be the father of twelve rulers, and I will make him into a great nation."
Genesis 17:20

Look at the riches of the Arab nation, and it's obvious this came true.

You and I are still both missing out though.
 
Look at the riches of the Arab nation, and it's obvious this came true.
I'm do hope that your not serious about that!

If you are I can only assume that you are seriously unaware of the huge wealth gap that exist in Arab nations, the appalling human rights records they hold, particularly in regard to enforced labour and modern slavery (but then that would fit in with the biblical 'slavery is cool as long as its my chosen people doing the enslavement').


And BobK, I provided enough scraps of evidence to produce a big pile of evidence, your mind just won't accept the completion of the puzzle.
You have provided a list of names that may be Jewish (which is a long was from being a million people and certainly not proof of slavery), a number of child bodies buried by non-Egyptian (which is a long way from a million, no proof of them being Jewish and again not proof of slavery) and a single reference to Israel on a stone tablet (and its not even agreed among academics that it does refer to Israel) from the wrong time period (and still does show a million Jewish slave in Egypt).

This has nothing to do with people not accepting 'the completion of the puzzle'; your 'proof', even en-mass, does not support your claim.

It does not, even in total, support a claim that a million Jewish slaves existed in ancient Egypt (or Egypt at any time period for that matter), nor does it support the migration of them from Egypt into any land in the area. What the evidence does support (at best) is that non-Egyptian children died (in the Bronze age - what a surprise) and were buried and that the Egyptians were aware of Israel (in a later time period that the one you are claiming for the slavery). all of these people have quite happily accepted.

What you are not willing to accept (which every credible academic - including the Jewish ones accept) is that the evidence does not support the claim for the slavery or exodus.
 
And BobK, I provided enough scraps of evidence to produce a big pile of evidence, your mind just won't accept the completion of the puzzle.

You have not provided a single scrap of evidence that there were a million Jewish slaves in ancient Egypt. Yes, there were Jews in ancient Egypt. Yes, there were slaves in ancient Egypt. Nobody is arguing against either of those two independent facts, which is also the best that can be claimed for your evidence. What you have yet to provide any evidence whatsoever for, other than this list of names some of which might be Jewish is that a million Jews lived in ancient Egypt and that those Jews were slaves.

So how about some actual evidence here? Or withdraw the claim.[/I]
 
Look at the riches of the Arab nation, and it's obvious this came true.

These so called riches are literally hoarded by a tiny population of Arabs. As Scaff pointed out their human rights record is terrible. Look at what these "riches" have purchased. Huge fleets of hyper cars, western based football clubs, banks, ridiculous developments in Dubai and a whole load of other crap while their populations go without basic health care, schooling, sanitation and a reasonable standard of infrastructure. What you have at the top is a bunch of self appointed dictators who ensure that their wealth will continue without any regard to their own people. All the while it's run under an umbrella of Islam which is bordering on totalitarianism.

To label these "riches" as a gift from God is quite shameful although it accurately reflects the selfish and arrogant view of modern religion.
 
Well, since when have religious fundamentalists ever given half a crap about human rights?

A prime case in point would be the industrial schools and Magdalene Laundries in "aul' Catholic Éire".
 
As an example, Sagan relates the story from the chapter "The Dragon in My Garage" (which he notes follows a group therapy approach by the psychologist Richard L. Franklin[1]) of the invisible fire-breathing dragon living in his garage. He asks, "what's the difference between an invisible, incorporeal, floating dragon who spits heatless fire and no dragon at all? If there's no way to disprove my contention, no conceivable experiment that would count against it, what does it mean to say that my dragon exists? Your inability to invalidate my hypothesis is not at all the same thing as proving it true."

Thought of this thread when reading before purchasing a carl sagan book.
 
To label these "riches" as a gift from God is quite shameful although it accurately reflects the selfish and arrogant view of modern religion.

Let's not forget of course, that the process by which oil is created takes longer than the Earth is meant to have existed, according to the Abrahamic religions. If the method by which God chooses to bestow these riches upon the Arab nations is one which effectively disproves their religion, it does at least show that God is not without a sense of humour/irony..
 
You and I are still both missing out though.
I'm not missing out, I have love for both the Jews and Arabs. I do strongly disagree with the extremism of Arabs and certain extremist takes on Islam, but I admire the Arabs for their discipline in controlling sin.
 
I'm not missing out, I have love for both the Jews and Arabs. I do strongly disagree with the extremism of Arabs and certain extremist takes on Islam, but I admire the Arabs for their discipline in controlling sin.
You're missing the point though. I suggested that there was an inequality if God blesses Jews and Arabs by default, and not others. You then said that if the others bless the Jews, they will be blessed. Using this model, the Jew or Arab will always be more blessed than the others.

This can be resolved if you agree that God is either unfair, or, that God shows no favouratism. No silly diversion stories allowed. Which one is it?
 
These so called riches are literally hoarded by a tiny population of Arabs. As Scaff pointed out their human rights record is terrible. Look at what these "riches" have purchased. Huge fleets of hyper cars, western based football clubs, banks, ridiculous developments in Dubai and a whole load of other crap while their populations go without basic health care, schooling, sanitation and a reasonable standard of infrastructure. What you have at the top is a bunch of self appointed dictators who ensure that their wealth will continue without any regard to their own people. All the while it's run under an umbrella of Islam which is bordering on totalitarianism.

To label these "riches" as a gift from God is quite shameful although it accurately reflects the selfish and arrogant view of modern religion.

God gave the Arabs wealth and land, they share the same blood of Abraham that the Jews share, but that does not mean they get to enter heaven.

What the Jews and Arabs fail to understand is that they are technically brother/sister, and as myself being a Christian with no Jewish or Arab Blood, it saddens me that they fight.
 
You're missing the point though. I suggested that there was an inequality if God blesses Jews and Arabs by default, and not others. You then said that if the others bless the Jews, they will be blessed. Using this model, the Jew or Arab will always be more blessed than the others.

This can be resolved if you agree that God is either unfair, or, that God shows no favouratism. No silly diversion stories allowed. Which one is it?

In a way God shows favoritism, in much a way a parents can show favoritism to their children. Parents love all their children , but one child can be disrespectful of their parent while the other does not, the kids who show respect and love most for their parents will get their reward. What a parent despises is the kids who fight against each other.

God does show favoritism for the Jews, but what are we going to do? Show jealousy and hate them, or simply accept it and support them?
 
To label these "riches" as a gift from God is quite shameful although it accurately reflects the selfish and arrogant view of modern religion.

Though I could give someone a gift card, only to have them go out and buy a Miley Cyrus album. Surely that wouldn't be fair to have that reflect on me?

The whole riches from God thing is rubbish of course, and should be considered so by both believers and non-believers.

God does show favoritism for the Jews, but what are we going to do? Show jealousy and hate them, or simply accept it and support them?

The God you describe is not fair and just then. Just so you know.
 
God does show favoritism for the Jews, but what are we going to do? Show jealousy and hate them, or simply accept it and support them?

If favoritism includes being the target of racism, genocide and deportation... I think I'd rather be the forgotten son.

Or as the immortal (and fictional) Tevye would put it:


We are Your chosen people. But, once in a while, can't You choose someone else?
 
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