drift faster than grip

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Originally posted by Pfffssshhh!
oh my god. :banghead:
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I want to delete so many of these posts.
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Why would you even mention battle_stage. He doesn't drift to be fast.
 
Originally posted by bengee
I want to delete so many of these posts.
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Why would you even mention battle_stage. He doesn't drift to be fast.
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That's funny, you beat me to it..... Battle_Stage is primarily an exhibition FR drifter. He doesn't spend very much time, if any, speed drifting. I mean, it is kinda redundant.....Speed.....Drifting.... ;)
 
Sorry to bring this back again, but I was wondering two things...
When people say drift vs grip, to what levels do they mean? If you never break traction obviously this is grip right? So if you break traction is that neccessarily called drift? Or if you drift one of the corners in the course but not the rest is that considered drift or grip? How much drifting is required in a course to consider it drifting??
Also if we use my definition of grip and drift to remove any ambiguity about driving styles, when the surface has low levels of grip, would it be faster to drift around corners or to maintain constant state of traction through the course??
 
Let us concentrate on corners only. I guarantee that on a low traction surface that it is impossible to drive fast and maintain grip in the corners. This is mainly due to the fact that the speed you enter to corner (to get good lap times) is too fast to maintain grip... I have this pic in my engineering mag of a BMW f1 car on a track i belive was covered in snow. it was using a slip angle int he turn becuase how else can you use your straight away speeed...

The definitions you give oversimplify what is really occuring wit the contact patch on the tires and bla bla bla. Whever you are not heading through the corner without using a slip angle (not a drift angle necessarily) you are drifting. The ambiguity comes about because we have vastly improved tire stiffness and grip, which means that at the limit of grip and drift, the transition between kinetic and static friction, the slip angles are so small that seeing them is quite impossible. However if you get some weak tires on your car, ones with weak sidewalls and such... or knobbly tread, you will see the tires flex and the slip angle i speak of...
 
Originally posted by bengee
Let us concentrate on corners only. I guarantee that on a low traction surface that it is impossible to drive fast and maintain grip in the corners. This is mainly due to the fact that the speed you enter to corner (to get good lap times) is too fast to maintain grip... I have this pic in my engineering mag of a BMW f1 car on a track i belive was covered in snow. it was using a slip angle int he turn becuase how else can you use your straight away speeed...

The definitions you give oversimplify what is really occuring wit the contact patch on the tires and bla bla bla. Whever you are not heading through the corner without using a slip angle (not a drift angle necessarily) you are drifting. The ambiguity comes about because we have vastly improved tire stiffness and grip, which means that at the limit of grip and drift, the transition between kinetic and static friction, the slip angles are so small that seeing them is quite impossible. However if you get some weak tires on your car, ones with weak sidewalls and such... or knobbly tread, you will see the tires flex and the slip angle i speak of...
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i kinda get it :confused: but good answer
 
grip is faster than drift...
because at the end of the race the driver using grip has less tire wear than the person using drift :lol: :lol: :lol:
 
Right, bengee... I bet you're a really fast driver.

How about this:
If your front tires are screeching but your back tires are not, you are UNDERSTEERING.

If your back tires are screeching and your front wheels are angled on the same direction as the turn you are OVERSTEERING.

If your rear tires are screeching and you are turning in the opposite direction of the turn, but still flowing through the turn on the ideal line, you are DRIFTING.

If you are doing any of the above, YOU ARE NOT GOING AS FAST AS YOU COULD BE.

If all four tires are JUST at the point where they are starting to produce noise during any sort of driving, be it accelerating, braking, or turning, or any combination of these factors, you are driving at peak traction. In other words, AS FAST AS YOUR CAR WILL LET YOU.

Then tuning comes in.

Bengee, you can take your static sidewalls and kinetic ambiguity and go eat some cake, because it all boils down to a feeling.

Like... travelling at over 150km/h into a corner, you aren't thinking, "oh my, I seem to be moving at approximately 150km/h. So 150 divided by -2500 kilowatts of braking force times 5.6 degrees of wheel angle multiplying at a rate of .000628 times per minute plus the weight of my left nut 48.6cm away from the center of gravity equals OH SH-"

Wrecked3000gt.jpg


All yo' jibba jabba goes flying through the windshield.

When you drive, it's like, "I want car to go THERE. I am going THIS fast. I need to steer THIS hard. I need to brake THIS much."

THIS = a feeling. Not a number.

These feelings become more accurate through practice.

The more complex you make things, the more difficult they become.
The desire for knowledge can be a burden in certain situations.
Can I generalize any more?
 
OK street fighter, if you took the time to read this thread, we have already discussed the definitions and such. There is no difference beetween oversteering and "drifting". Other than the fact that you could say "drifting" is controlled oversteer using throttle and countersteering to maintain your line and not spin out...

Anyways what you say about driving at the peak of traction being the fastest is true. This occurs at the point where the friction changes from static to kinetic friction, the point bewteen grip and drift. This point doesnt exist for all four tires at the same time. I gaurantee that it is impossible except under one or two certain situations not driver controlled. This is also why i TRIED to quickly explain something that has been said in this thread OVER and OVER. No one likes to read tho...

You may say that what i say is mumbo jumbo or whatever, but we are not talking about what is faster in practice. Maintaining grip on the best possible line you can humanly handle is the going to be the fastest way for any of us to drive. We are talking about what is the absolute fastest way around a corner. In theory, that is why i am talking about physics, because that is the only way you are going to be able to explain a real life phenomenon.

I personally approach cars from a design point of view, a drivers point of view comes second.

On one last note. Perg and i have argued this for some time. But when i talk about the absolute fastest point and i talk about slip angles i am not talking about exhibition drifting as so many of you might believe. I am talking about 4 wheel drift as it was employed in the old days of grand prix racing... when tires were not so hightech...
 
Again, you complicate through elaboration.

Can you not simply say, "drifting is turning one way while steering the other way," as a term instead of calling it a conversion from static to kinetic friction or whatever.

Guh... see this is why drivers have mechanics do this crap for them. They simple say what the problem is and the mechanic, should he be experienced enough, should know how to solve the problem. Thus saving the driver criticizing his own work.

I understand most of what you are saying, bengee, so don't get me wrong. But tuning is so statistical and predictable that it is merely boring and time consuming.

This is why I look forward to GT4.

It is sooo gonna be a MMORG (massively multiplayer online racing game) where money will be extremely hard to make and drivers will pay other people to tune their cars for them.
 
Whatever. Don't strain yourself.

I think what drifters need is a game where drifting is actually faster than grip. That would be... interesting :lol:

4:00am

Bedtime.
 
I think drift is more fast than grip, I did a test with a Rx7 Fc with 391 hp and with a r32 with 397 hp, in midfield raceway, r32 with soft tyres and Rx7 with sport tyres, I did 1:18:536 with the r32, and with the rx7, I did 1:14:486 or 1:16:459, something like that, with the r32 I did push the car to the limit, with Rx7 Fc, and didn't push the car to the limit.
Conclusion, same hp, same tunes (suspesion, LSD...), drift can be more fast than grip. The best of the grip is the "line", when you do the "line" in drift, you can enter with more speed (you loose a bit speed in curves, but not very much), then, the exit of the curve can be more fast.
The most important fact in races, is the "hands", experience with the cars, and a little of good settings.
 
Originally posted by Street Fighter
Again, you complicate through elaboration.

Can you not simply say, "drifting is turning one way while steering the other way," as a term instead of calling it a conversion from static to kinetic friction or whatever.

Guh... see this is why drivers have mechanics do this crap for them. They simple say what the problem is and the mechanic, should he be experienced enough, should know how to solve the problem. Thus saving the driver criticizing his own work.

I understand most of what you are saying, bengee, so don't get me wrong. But tuning is so statistical and predictable that it is merely boring and time consuming.

This is why I look forward to GT4.

It is sooo gonna be a MMORG (massively multiplayer online racing game) where money will be extremely hard to make and drivers will pay other people to tune their cars for them.
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Understanding exactly what's happening during a drift helps you drift better. If you think this is boring or time consuming, how can you call yourself a drift enthusiast? Why are you even here? To show the other kiddies that you can drift too, or to better yourself?
 
Street Fighter, What is so hard for you to understand? Bengee has outlined the comparison quite well. The only time drifting can be faster than grip IMO, would be through the use of 4 wheel drifting (not AWD or 4WD drifting). I mean, are you having trouble understanding the big words, or what's the deal? Pay attention to what people like: Bengee, and Pergatory say. Don't just blow them off. They have a lot of information that could help you with your drifting.;)
 
Originally posted by pergatory
Understanding exactly what's happening during a drift helps you drift better. If you think this is boring or time consuming, how can you call yourself a drift enthusiast? Why are you even here? To show the other kiddies that you can drift too, or to better yourself?
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Whoa, where did that come from?
You might consider reading my post again because I never said drifting was boring, nor did I say anything about wanting to show off.

perg: The only thing about driving that I feel is boring and time consuming is the tuning part of it, and the only reason I drive is to better myself. I could care less what people think about my driving.

sil: the only way anyone could help my drifting or driving is if they gave me car setups then told me what to change should the setup contain a certain problem that isn't avoidable through adaptation.

Not that I can't tune settings myself, it's just that bengee obviously knows more about doing it that I do. Thus the Driver/Mechanic relationship.

Please don't feel I am blowing them off.
I would feel privilaged to have a tuner such as him working on my side.
 
since it seems that a four wheel drift is possible in gt3 does any one have a vid or can make one of a four wheel drift heh?
 
Originally posted by Street Fighter
Whoa, where did that come from?
You might consider reading my post again because I never said drifting was boring, nor did I say anything about wanting to show off.

perg: The only thing about driving that I feel is boring and time consuming is the tuning part of it, and the only reason I drive is to better myself. I could care less what people think about my driving.

sil: the only way anyone could help my drifting or driving is if they gave me car setups then told me what to change should the setup contain a certain problem that isn't avoidable through adaptation.

Not that I can't tune settings myself, it's just that bengee obviously knows more about doing it that I do. Thus the Driver/Mechanic relationship.

Please don't feel I am blowing them off.
I would feel privilaged to have a tuner such as him working on my side.
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You can't expect everyone do everything for you. If you want to be a good drifter, you need to learn how to tune. I had to do exstensive research on real life drifting setups and techniques to get me where I am today. If you want to increase your skills, I suggest you do the same. It's only boring, because you don't know what you are doing. I will be gald to help you, as I'm sure others will to, but you need to keep an open mind, and pay attention. Furthermore, think very carefully before you post a reply. Some of your posts are just complete nonsense........ ;)
 
I was going to post a reply last night but i was way too tired and i still had a **** load of work to do. Don't worry street fighter i wasnt strainging myself. What i was talking about was four wheel drift, but i usually refrain from using that term because people get confused with exhibition drifting with only throttle control and without countersteering. In high school physics they distinguish between kinetic and s tatic friction like this...
../|
./ |____
/
Static friction rises to meet the force applied to the object until a maximum value arises where the force immediately drops to the lower kinetic value. Whenever smoke comes from the tires ( like in drift) the wheels from which it comes are using this lower value of friction. Thus a lower total force can be emmited on the car by the ground via its contact with the tire. So basically during drift you are oversteering because the front end has a higher level of traction than the rear end for the majority of time (when your drift angle is being increased) becase the force unbalance creates a moment that turns the car. Now things get complicated with weight transfer and all so each tire actually has a different value for this maximum traction, and actually each tire actually has a different value of traction at any time during a corner. This is why if you are trying to become the fastest you want to be it is important to understand what is going on becuase without that knowledge it will be impossible to learn what to do instinctively... oh well i forgot what i was saying and gotta go to class...
 
Originally posted by Street Fighter
Whoa, where did that come from?
You might consider reading my post again because I never said drifting was boring, nor did I say anything about wanting to show off.

perg: The only thing about driving that I feel is boring and time consuming is the tuning part of it, and the only reason I drive is to better myself. I could care less what people think about my driving.
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I'm glad you enjoy driving but drifting isn't just instinct, it's the entire sport, including physics and tuning. Those are two separate things by the way, learning the physics of drifting doesn't just teach you how to tune it teaches you how to drive better too. For example, have you noticed that when you give throttle during a drift, the car doesn't go sideways immediately, it's delayed? When you understand the physics behind why it does that, you can not only predict it better, but you can relate it to other things like the lean of the car. Without knowing these things, it's very difficult to advance. You will still learn to drift, yes, but it will be slow and you will often find out that something you thought was true is not true and you have to change your whole way of driving. Not fun.
 
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