Food Ethics (Poll)

[TexRex]

Oops.

 

[Danoff]

I do find it hilarious that some people are so virulently anti-vegan, just for the sake of being anti-vegan.

Vegan is something else.

I know of Vegans who are doing it for climate change, but those people are essentially adopting a religious moral code about animals for something that makes almost no impact on climate change compared to (as the video points out) vegetarianism, or even a low-meat diet. Veganism is a moral code, drawn from essentially thin air, that its followers adopt for no apparent reason.

In short, I think they're completely crazy.

 

[Eunos_Cosmo]

Ah, gotcha! So to my mind you followed your curiosity with a sort of pro/con assessment.


I look at it as pushback to those "meat is murder" types we've all heard of, but I'll say that I've never actually encountered one in person.

I understand what you are saying. Being in California, I've encountered a few. But in the end, I don't think it matters.

I honestly can't tell the difference between Soy Chorizo and actual Chorizo. That may be on me for not being discerning enough, and that's fine. As with what Danoff mentioned, I occasionally have food-safety concerns with real meat. "Does this Chicken I bought 3 days ago smell off? This feels a little slimy." Soy based stuff? Basically never. It's been in the fridge for 3 months. What's the worst that could happen? Just chuck it in the pan. If I can't tell the difference, what honestly is the point in taking up resources to 'construct' the real thing (aka, a Pig, or several) and risk getting sick from some food born pathogen?

Full disclosure, I still buy fresh meat just about every week. Chicken doesn't have a good substitute that I've found. I haven't personally cooked with any beef substitute. But I would absolutely buy test-tube raised chicken or beef if it was available. Why wouldn't I?

Vegan is something else.

I know of Vegas who are doing it for climate change, but those people are essentially adopting a religious moral code about animals for something that makes almost no impact on climate change compared to (as the video points out) vegetarianism, or even a low-meat diet. Veganism is a moral code, drawn from essentially thin air, that its followers adopt for no apparent reason.

In short, I think they're completely crazy.

That's fair. They are a bit extreme and self righteous, I'll give you that. I'd put them in the same spectrum as those that "roll coal" with enthusiasm.

 

[TexRex]

I love meat. I don't see that ever changing. But just because I'm willing to benefit from another animal's slaughter, that doesn't mean I will condone poor treatment of that animal prior to its slaughter; "one bad day", I like to say.

It's not merely an ethical concern either, as there's plenty of evidence that animals that undergo significant stress prior to slaughter just don't taste as good. That stress manifests in the meat as chemicals are released into it.

Living conditions are a concern for me as well, such as over-crowding, because even though the animal may not be abused and experiences a painless death, disease can spread in those conditions and require pumping the animals with antibiotics.

Of course getting meat that meets these requirements comes at a cost...cost. Handling animals with that kind of care and concern for their well-being can be expensive. It's important enough to me that I'm willing to absorb that. If I can't afford to, well I suppose I'd consider getting away from meat consumption.

...

I've got a good friend who is a vegan. She's a vegan for reasons not to dissimilar to why I'm so selective about meat. That said, she's not the type to hold others' meat consumption, regardless of the source, against them.

Her husband is one of my oldest friends with whom I'm regularly in contact, and I've known him for 23 years. He's a vegetarian, and came to be one as a result of becoming violently ill after consuming spoiled meat. (I was actually present for that and could have easily been subjected to the same spoiled meat, but I got lucky.) Now he gets a similar reaction from eating meat or meat derivatives--stock, for example. Dairy and eggs are fine but seafood and even invertebrates are not.

He's a a sort of situational vegan, as most of what he consumes was prepared by her, but she doesn't object to dairy and eggs being in the fridge.

...

I honestly can't tell the difference between Soy Chorizo and actual Chorizo. That may be on me for not being discerning enough, and that's fine.

It may come down to preparation, as it's been my experience that soy chorizo just doesn't have the fat. Something like a chorizo and potato taco filling, where the chorizo is on display and the rendering of fat plays and important role...well I suspect the difference there would be much more noticeable.

Edit: Or when it's stewed, as it would just crumble apart and disappear while even the ground pork used to make real chorizo tends to stay clumped (the denaturing caused by vinegar in chorizo's preparation actually helps this). You may as well just use spices at that point.

 

[Danoff]

Apparently buying a $10k solar panel would do more in terms of CO2 (in the sunny southern US) than anything one could do with their diet.

 

[ryzno]

One interesting advantage for the impossible burger is the mitigation of e-coli or food preparation sanitation issues.

I completely disagree.
Lettuce is a common source of e-coli.
Cooks letting the food sit out of temperature before and after preparation, regardless of it being meat based.
Poorly cleaned fridges/freezers/grills/ovens/counters.
I worked food-service, you might be suprised how nasty a commercial kitchen is compared to the score on the wall.

Our home kitchens aren't exactly the cleanest either. How often do people pull out their stove or fridge and clean behind them?

Just saying.

 

[Danoff]

I completely disagree.
Lettuce is a common source of e-coli.
Cooks letting the food sit out of temperature before and after preparation, regardless of it being meat based.
Poorly cleaned fridges/freezers/grills/ovens/counters.
I worked food-service, you might be suprised how nasty a commercial kitchen is compared to the score on the wall.

Our home kitchens aren't exactly the cleanest either. How often do people pull out their stove or fridge and clean behind them?

Just saying.

Yea, bad lettuce isn't just bad for that reason either, and as long as lettuce is going on your burger, it continues to be a source of food-based illness. But swapping the meat burger for the impossible burger seems like a win in the sanitation department. It is something I'd be interested in seeing analysis on, whether that "seems like" translates to actual results.

 

[Eunos_Cosmo]

Yea, bad lettuce isn't just bad for that reason either, and as long as lettuce is going on your burger, it continues to be a source of food-based illness. But swapping the meat burger for the impossible burger seems like a win in the sanitation department. It is something I'd be interested in seeing analysis on, whether that "seems like" translates to actual results.

Seems like the ingredients in the impossible burger go through the grinder (unless I'm wrong?) in a similar way to how ground beef is made. I understand that a lot of meat contamination happens when it is ground. I wonder if the same is potentially true for the impossible stuff? Granted, bacteria from faeces is predominantly the contaminant of meat products, which shouldn't be present when impossible meat is made. I hope.

 

[Danoff]

I wonder if the same is potentially true for the impossible stuff? Granted, bacteria from faeces is predominantly the contaminant of meat products, which shouldn't be present when impossible meat is made. I hope.

Yea the way beef is produced makes it difficult to efficiently clean it. That doesn't seem like it's the case with the impossible ingredients.

 

[TexRex]

Seems like the ingredients in the impossible burger go through the grinder (unless I'm wrong?) in a similar way to how ground beef is made. I understand that a lot of meat contamination happens when it is ground. I wonder if the same is potentially true for the impossible stuff? Granted, bacteria from faeces is predominantly the contaminant of meat products, which shouldn't be present when impossible meat is made. I hope.

Without even getting into contaminants introduced into meat during processing, a major concern when grinding is relocating harmful bacteria to a part of the meat where it may not be killed during the cooking process.

You take a steak, and maybe it has bacteria growing on the outside. That bacteria doesn't naturally migrate into the center of the cut, so when you sear the outside of the steak, even if you only cook it to rare, the bacteria gets killed off.

Take that same steak and run it through a grinder (even one that's just been sanitized), or even chop it finely by hand, and that bacteria that was previously relegated to the outside of the meat is now incorporated throughout. Throw that burger into a ripping hot pan to get a good crust but only cook the center to 145 for medium-rare, now any bacteria present in the center is still alive. That's why cooking it to 160 internally is recommended.

It's not all sour grapes, mind you. The presence of bacteria isn't guaranteed, and even the presence of bacteria doesn't guarantee you'll get sick--I know plenty of people who eat rare and medium-rare burgers and who have never experienced food poisoning. I've eaten tartare--minced, raw beef--on numerous occasions and have yet to get sick from it (though I have gotten food poisoning on other occasions).

Eating a burger that's been cooked to 160 doesn't have to be an unpleasant experience either. Tenderness is all but guaranteed if it's been prepared properly, but connective tissue that's been ground up is still connective tissue that can be transformed into something wonderful if it's cooked at the appropriate temperature for the appropriate amount of time. That collagen turns into gelatin...which is a very good thing. I cook my burgers to 165 for that very reason, not really even because of food safety.

 

[Danoff]

Without even getting into contaminants introduced into meat during processing, a major concern when grinding is relocating harmful bacteria to a part of the meat where it may not be killed during the cooking process.

You take a steak, and maybe it has bacteria growing on the outside. That bacteria doesn't naturally migrate into the center of the cut, so when you sear the outside of the steak, even if you only cook it to rare, the bacteria gets killed off.

Take that same steak and run it through a grinder (even one that's just been sanitized), or even chop it finely by hand, and that bacteria that was previously relegated to the outside of the meat is now incorporated throughout. Throw that burger into a ripping hot pan to get a good crust but only cook the center to 145 for medium-rare, now any bacteria present in the center is still alive. That's why cooking it to 160 internally is recommended.

It's not all sour grapes, mind you. The presence of bacteria isn't guaranteed, and even the presence of bacteria doesn't guarantee you'll get sick--I know plenty of people who eat rare and medium-rare burgers and who have never experienced food poisoning. I've eaten tartare--minced, raw beef--on numerous occasions and have yet to get sick from it (though I have gotten food poisoning on other occasions).

Eating a burger that's been cooked to 160 doesn't have to be an unpleasant experience either. Tenderness is all but guaranteed if it's been prepared properly, but connective tissue that's been ground up is still connective tissue that can be transformed into something wonderful if it's cooked at the appropriate temperature for the appropriate amount of time. That collagen turns into gelatin...which is a very good thing. I cook my burgers to 165 for that very reason, not really even because of food safety.

You just reminded me. I tried avocado blanching on your recommendation. I'm impressed. 👍

 

[TexRex]

You just reminded me. I tried avocado blanching on your recommendation. I'm impressed. 👍

Little tricks.

 

[Eunos_Cosmo]

You just reminded me. I tried avocado blanching on your recommendation. I'm impressed. 👍

Info?

 

[TexRex]

Info?

Drop a ripe, uncut avocado into boiling water for 15-20 seconds and then straight into an ice bath to shock it. Once cut, the avocado won't brown for hours. It's silly to do it for an avocado you're consuming immediately and unlikely to not finish, but if you have diced avocado out for tacos for a party, or even guac, it can sit out and stay green.

Be careful not to go longer or skip the bath, as it will get bitter.

If you make guac, though, that combined with squirting citrus juice on it before filming the surface with plastic will keep it green in storage for days. Even better is covering the surface with oil to create a hermetic seal, and then cover normally without pressing plastic wrap down to the surface.

Edit: Any oil you'd cook with is fine, but know that you'll be stirring it in before you consume it again. Since I use avocado oil regularly anyway, I use it here as it seems obvious. A light olive oil works well in the absence of avocado oil.

 

[Eunos_Cosmo]

Drop a ripe, uncut avocado into boiling water for 15-20 seconds and then straight into an ice bath to shock it. Once cut, the avocado won't brown for hours. It's silly to do it for an avocado you're consuming immediately and unlikely to not finish, but if you have diced avocado out for tacos for a party, or even guac, it can sit out and stay green.

Be careful not to go longer or skip the bath, as it will get bitter.

If you make guac, though, that combined with squirting citrus juice on it before filming the surface with plastic will keep it green in storage for days. Even better is covering the surface with oil to create a hermetic seal, and then cover normally without pressing plastic wrap down to the surface.

Edit: Any oil you'd cook with is fine, but know that you'll be stirring it in before you consume it again. Since I use avocado oil regularly anyway, I use it here as it seems obvious. A light olive oil works well in the absence of avocado oil.

This is brilliant.

 

[Shaun]

Vegan is something else.

I know of Vegas who are doing it for climate change, but those people are essentially adopting a religious moral code about animals for something that makes almost no impact on climate change compared to (as the video points out) vegetarianism, or even a low-meat diet. Veganism is a moral code, drawn from essentially thin air, that its followers adopt for no apparent reason.

In short, I think they're completely crazy.

I'm just curious, how do you personally define someone as a vegan?
Is it someone who follows a plant based diet, or someone who also won't use any animal based products etc in their life?

 

[Danoff]

I'm just curious, how do you personally define someone as a vegan?
Is it someone who follows a plant based diet, or someone who also won't use any animal based products etc in their life?

I believe a Vegan is someone who adheres to a strict diet and lifestyle that avoids all animal products (except human, and sometimes insects) including animal meat but also including products of animal hides, bones, and even animal labor.

 

[Shaun]

I believe a Vegan is someone who adheres to a strict diet and lifestyle that avoids all animal products (except human, and sometimes insects) including animal meat but also including products of animal hides, bones, and even animal labor.

Ok cool thanks, to me the lifestyle part must be included to be a Vegan.
While I don't always agree with your opinion I certainly respect it hence asking that's all.
Seems we're pretty much on the same page.

 

[TexRex]

I concur; consumption isn't limited to ingestion.

 

[Dobermann92]

I eat whatever I want, just keep the fungi as far away from me as possible

I would be a vegan, but I don't have the willpower to do so, but I wouldn't kill an animal myself.

 

[TexRex]

just keep the fungi as far away from me as possible

There's a fungus amungus.

 

[TexRex]

Impossible and Beyond came up over dinner discussion with neighbors, due in no small part to the latter being made available to those who refrain from consuming meat.

Beyond went public about a month ago, and over dinner I recalled a Jim Cramer type (it may have actually been Cramer, but I feel like I would be able to say so with more confidence if it was) hitting them hard due to their supposed poor business model revolving around the bubble that is these faux meat products, because people will soon realize that they cost significantly more (often several times the cost) than their cattleborne counterparts while actually containing more saturated fat and sodium, but also because of the notion that people [who want to eat something like meat without animals having been harmed] alone won't be able to sustain the companies.

Now this fact and the supposed bubble aren't mutually exclusive, but it's worth noting that Beyond had a pretty danged successful IPO, plus there are reports that demand is greater than the two companies can currently sustain.

Nestle is supposed to be rolling out a product similar to Beyond's (based on pea protein instead of Impossible's soy, and apparently also lacking the heme present in the latter) through their "Sweet Earth" brand this fall, though they've had a soy-based vegan option in Europe for some time now.

I'll add that the person hosting tonight--who made the Beyond patties available--isn't the type to dig on products aimed at vegetarians, and in fact usually doesn't go out of his way to offer such options like he did tonight, but he got enough so that anyone who was likely to want one could have one and so that he could try it himself, and he was pleasantly surprised. His sentiment echoed my own; they don't really taste like beef but they stand on their own.

 

[Danoff]

His sentiment echoed my own; they don't really taste like beef but they stand on their own.

Interesting.

This particular industry is still very young. I don't mean that patties for burgers other than meat is young, I mean plant-based meat. As a result, I expect a LOT of improvement in the coming years, not just in taste, but in price. The plant-based meat thing could end up making real meat look like an internal combustion engine at some point. I could easily see it tasting better, being cheaper, and being healthier (and better for the environment).

 

[TexRex]

Interesting.

This particular industry is still very young. I don't mean that patties for burgers other than meat is young, I mean plant-based meat. As a result, I expect a LOT of improvement in the coming years, not just in taste, but in price. The plant-based meat thing could end up making real meat look like an internal combustion engine at some point. I could easily see it tasting better, being cheaper, and being healthier (and better for the environment).

I think there's a lot to look forward to...and that's as someone who has no hang ups about beef other than a desire for meat of a certain quality.

 

[TexRex]

I posed this question in a profile post some time back, but since that's not an ideal venue for discussion, I thought I'd do so again here. Should anyone who answered there happen upon this, they absolutely shouldn't feel as though their answer's been received and isn't welcome; I'd gladly have it again and this is a perfect place to elaborate.

Would you eat horse (if its production met standards you expect of other meat)? Have you eaten horse and been aware that that's what you were eating?

I'm not a squeamish eater. I'm selective of the food that I acquire at home because I like to think I'm not supporting certain practices, and this applies to both animals and produce, but this can be more difficult when traveling abroad and efforts to maintain that practice can affect enjoyment of travel. When I'm in another country, I'm generally very open to eating things that are typically eaten. I may decide after the fact that I don't care for it, but I won't make that decision without first being informed through personal experience.

I have eaten horse, and I knew that it's what was on offer when making the choice. I had horse in the form of a stew that's widely eaten where I was in Italy, and I had it in the form of a sausage in Quebec. I'd readily have it again in the case of the former, but the latter didn't really "wow" me.

Still, horse meat is considered taboo in much of the English-speaking world, and there are even states in the US where it's banned outright. In 732, Pope Gregory III issued a ban on consumption, citing association with the Pagans, and that may well have had a lasting effect, but there's obviously the matter of horses often being considered companions; indeed, my wife and I have a pair of horses, but it's not likely they will ever be eaten. We've got a couple of rabbits as well, and I quite enjoy rabbit meat, but the same applies to them.

The source of the horse is a concern, of course (sorry), with the animals often being used in competition for which they're subjected to powerful drugs, both accepted and illicit, and as with any meat market, there are bad producers that handle the animals in an inhumane manner.

Then there's scandal that's plagued the meat. We've all heard about beef that's been tainted with horse meat, and horse has even been represented as beef without any of the latter to be found. As accepting as I am of consumption of it, this is something that I absolutely do not condone.

Thoughts?




Should I even bother asking about dog and/or cat?

 

[Liquid]

I have both knowingly and unknowingly eaten horse. Knowingly from horse meatballs in Germany and unknowingly from the horse meat scandal where cheap and potentially illegal backstreet horse meat was used as a misleading, uninformed substitute for beef in many supermarket products.

The knowingly consumed horse meatballs were not that great, to be honest, but I suspect that horses aren't farmed for food in as great a number as cattle, sheep or pigs and thusly aren't raised in the same way with end taste in mind. It didn't taste awful, it was just... a meal.

The unknowingly consumed supermarket horse meat is a crapshoot because I don't know what percentage of a particular meal was actually beef and what was actually horse and given that it's supermarket food and ready meals, packed full of additional ingredients that give a neutral, repeatable taste anyway.

I'm not averse to knowingly eating horse again if I saw it on a menu in a restaurant. I'd like to try it and eat it with spices, sauces and whatnot to see if it really can be a good meat. The taboo of what animals we do and don't eat doesn't affect me personally when it comes to horses, at least:

Rabbit I've eaten lots of times and don't consider it unusual. Culturally, it's common throughout Wales to eat rabbit as a normal, non-controversial foodstuff. It's usually only the most urban areas or those who have rabbits as pets that don't. Same goes for pigeon (not pictured).

 

[TexRex]

I have both knowingly and unknowingly eaten horse. Knowingly from horse meatballs in Germany and unknowingly from the horse meat scandal where cheap and potentially illegal backstreet horse meat was used as a misleading, uninformed substitute for beef in many supermarket products.

The knowingly consumed horse meatballs were not that great, to be honest, but I suspect that horses aren't farmed for food in as great a number as cattle, sheep or pigs and thusly aren't raised in the same way with end taste in mind. It didn't taste awful, it was just... a meal.

The unknowingly consumed supermarket horse meat is a crapshoot because I don't know what percentage of a particular meal was actually beef and what was actually horse and given that it's supermarket food and ready meals, packed full of additional ingredients that give a neutral, repeatable taste anyway.

I'm not averse to knowingly eating horse again if I saw it on a menu in a restaurant. I'd like to try it and eat it with spices, sauces and whatnot to see if it really can be a good meat. The taboo of what animals we do and don't eat doesn't affect me personally when it comes to horses, at least:

Rabbit I've eaten lots of times and don't consider it unusual. Culturally, it's common throughout Wales to eat rabbit as a normal, non-controversial foodstuff. It's usually only the most urban areas or those who have rabbits as pets that don't. Same goes for pigeon (not pictured).

Thank you for that. That's about the best response I could hope to get. Very thorough and reasoned. The image cracked me up as well.

 

[Danoff]

Here's how I'd change the photo... group the dogs and put them on the left. Golden farthest left. Then the hound, then the other dogs. Next is the cat group. Then the pig followed by duck (because foie gras), then the horse, then the rabbit, then the cows, and the chicken goes all the way right.

Then it's easier to see that the line should most easily be drawn at the end of the dog group.



Edit:
If we can discount foie gras, then I'd order as follows: dogs, cats, pig, horse, rabbit, cows, duck, chicken.

 

[VFOURMAX1]

People

Eating

Tasty

Animals

 

[TexRex]

(because foie gras)

How's that? I did notice that foie gras is cited specifically as an example of animal cruelty, but I didn't think much of it as I don't put much stock in polls as a representation of what people as a whole actually believe anyway. However, you've now brought it up in actual discussion and I'm driven to comment.

There are those who believe that animal husbandry is a cruel practice in and of itself (I think you know the type), but it seems to me that a reasonable person is more likely to look at how animals are treated in their "care" (used here as a very broad term, in which animals that are abused in the process of meat production are technically cared for).

There are bad meat producers out there. It's a fact that I'm not trying to blur in any way, and it's one that I detest. We've all seen the pictures and the video clips.

There are also good meat producers out there. Producers that actually love the animals that they care for. They're the sort of people for whom I offer the utmost respect because they're capable of caring for (both in the general sense and the emotional) these animals before giving them up for market.

I'd say the same is true, in both cases, of ducks and geese (ducks accounting for the overwhelming majority of foie production, probably because geese are assholes).

"But what about gavage*? How would you like having a tube forced down your throat and have a meal ten times your normal consumption piped in?"

*The feeding process that actually fattens the liver up a couple weeks prior to slaughter.

That's the problem with anthropomorphization. I would have a problem with being treated that way, and it would likely manifest in a physical way if I were ever subjected to it, but I have a gag reflex and waterfowl do not. I also don't gorge myself prior to migration (I actually get airsick, and instead I fast for my own comfort); waterfowl do.