Food Ethics (Poll)

[Danoff]

How's that? I did notice that foie gras is cited specifically as an example of animal cruelty, but I didn't think much of it as I don't put much stock in polls as a representation of what people as a whole actually believe anyway. However, you've now brought it up in actual discussion and I'm driven to comment.

There are those who believe that animal husbandry is a cruel practice in and of itself (I think you know the type), but it seems to me that a reasonable person is more likely to look at how animals are treated in their "care" (used here as a very broad term, in which animals that are abused in the process of meat production are technically cared for).

There are bad meat producers out there. It's a fact that I'm not trying to blur in any way, and it's one that I detest. We've all seen the pictures and the video clips.

There are also good meat producers out there. Producers that actually love the animals that they care for. They're the sort of people for whom I offer the utmost respect because they're capable of caring for (both in the general sense and the emotional) these animals before giving them up for market.

I'd say the same is true, in both cases, of ducks and geese (ducks accounting for the overwhelming majority of foie production, probably because geese are assholes).

"But what about gavage*? How would you like having a tube forced down your throat and have a meal ten times your normal consumption piped in?"

*The feeding process that actually fattens the liver up a couple weeks prior to slaughter.

That's the problem with anthropomorphization. I would have a problem with being treated that way, and it would likely manifest in a physical way if I were ever subjected to it, but I have a gag reflex and waterfowl do not. I also don't gorge myself prior to migration (I actually get airsick, and instead I fast for my own comfort); waterfowl do.

I'm assuming that it's quite painful to the recipient. That's not necessarily based on how humans would respond, just based on my (limited) understanding of the process and basic properties of animals and the reasons for their neurological responses. If you tell me the ducks love it, then I'm all for foie gras.

Mostly what I'm highlighting is that there are method for preparing the food that cause pain or are indifferent to pain in the animal. And those are less palatable as it were. I'd prefer that the animals I eat were reasonably spared pain, understanding that the elimination of pain in anyone's life is impossible.

 

[TexRex]

I'm assuming that it's quite painful to the recipient. That's not necessarily based on how humans would respond, just based on my (limited) understanding of the process and basic properties of animals and the reasons for their neurological responses.

Indeed, studies that I believe to be largely unbiased have shown that in some instances, in even the best operations, randomly chosen animals subjected to postmortem examination have signs of inflammation in the throat as a result of having the plastic gavage tube inserted.

Having said that, an animal that's stressed isn't going to taste as good (the body produces chemicals that adversely affect the taste and texture of the flesh), and there are producers that incentivize a higher standard of care by inspecting the animals in one's charge and increasing one's wage if those animals meet that standard.

If you tell me the ducks love it, then I'm all for foie gras.

I can't say that, and so I won't.

As an aside, and this is purely anecdotal and not intended to suggest such occurrences are typical, but I got to see a foie operation in France a number of years ago, which included seeing the gavage process, and one particular duck, immediately after feeding, did a little hop and fluttered its body before turning around and going after the feeding tube with its mouth open. The feeder shuffled it aside with his foot and said something to the group in French, inciting laughter, and the tour guide translated into English for those who needed it, "He say this duck do that all of the time."

I'd say the birds generally didn't appreciate being handled but accepted the feeding without much fuss and trotted off once it was through.

Mostly what I'm highlighting is that there are method for preparing the food that cause pain or are indifferent to pain in the animal. And those are less palatable as it were. I'd prefer that the animals I eat were reasonably spared pain, understanding that the elimination of pain in anyone's life is impossible.

Oh of course, I can appreciate the general theme and I absolutely agree with your preference; it's one that I share. It's just that foie gras was brought up specifically and there's too much "some foie gras is made this way so all foie gras is bad" going around that I was compelled to get into it.

 

[TexRex]

So, Burger King has released a halloumi burger widely in the UK after a trial run in Sweden. To the uninitiated, halloumi is a "squeaky", semi-hard brined cheese, from Cyprus, with a higher-than-average melting point that makes it suitable for grilling. It's not likely to be mistaken for beef or chicken, but I don't suppose that's the point.

...

As for the consumption of animals, the subject of internal organs as food (for people) came up in another thread. Rather than derail that one further, I wanted to address it here.

If an animal is raised and slaughtered for [largely] human consumption, is it appropriate to look at that animal as merely "grilling packs" and "Buffalo wings", and shunning the rest?

Organs are meat too. Liver, while probably not as desirable as breasts, is utilized widely--a chicken liver Stroganoff is kind of spectacular. Gizzards (a muscle in the chicken's digestive tract) are braised slowly and then eaten or taken a step further with breading/battering and frying. Necks contribute a great deal to a flavorful broth, but the meat itself--if you have the patience to pick at it--is incredibly luscious and flavorful.

 

[Joey D]

Organ meat is great assuming it's prepared properly. Tripe, especially in Mexican dishes, is my jam. We have a food truck that comes by work from time to time. The owners speak precisely zero English and there's a little old lady cooking everything, but they have tripe street tacos that run 2 for a $1. I eat my weight in those bad boys.

 

[Liquid]

I don't find eating internal organs morally objectionable but I would rather not eat them myself.

Skin, however, can be delicious.

 

[TexRex]

Organ meat is great assuming it's prepared properly. Tripe, especially in Mexican dishes, is my jam. We have a food truck that comes by work from time to time. The owners speak precisely zero English and there's a little old lady cooking everything, but they have tripe street tacos that run 2 for a $1. I eat my weight in those bad boys.

Tripe is fantastic. I need to see if I can find it in a taco preparation, but I'm very fond of lampredotto (tripe sandwich originating in Florence) and here I don't have much difficulty finding Mexican menudo.

Tripe is dirt cheap in it, its natural state, but I've only made the mistake of preparing it from raw once. It's usually trimmed already but you need to boil it in several changes of water in order to tenderize it, and the process generates a foul stench. Now I only get tripe when I can find it "ready to cook", which is to say already having undergone that process.

 

[UKMikey]

 

[ExigeEvan]

I do intend to change however. Less meat. More locally sourced from butchers that know the local farming community. More in-season fruit and veg, and less that is imported.

Interesting seeing this thread reappear in my watch list so I guess I'd update my position.

No headline changes, but my diet has certainly moved to less meat and animal products consumption.

I use Soy/Oat milk at breakfast with cereal. I always consider the vegetarian/vegan options on a menu first and probably choose them 60% of the time. When I'm travelling and picking up food on the go, it's nearly always vegetarian. My home diet continues to be largely Vege/fish and will probably stay like that. Works canteen has a very poor choice of vegetation food most days so that's my weakest habit at the moment, but simply making my own lunch again would solve that.

I still think meat has a place in our diets, but it needs to be high welfare, low intensity and that's hard to find and evidence on a menu.

 

[Rallywagon]

I think, ethically speaking, as much of an animal should be used as possible. Whether that goes to humans, or creating food for animals, or other things such as non-food items. We should strive to use as close to 100% as possible.
One of the things I plan in working on when I start hunting is my appetite aversion and eating more of an animal than just the normal muscle groups. I think it is going to be a rough road, but processing the animal myself I am hoping will make it a bit easier to, pardon the pun, stomach.

 

[Joey D]

I think, ethically speaking, as much of an animal should be used as possible. Whether that goes to humans, or creating food for animals, or other things such as non-food items. We should strive to use as close to 100% as possible.
One of the things I plan in working on when I start hunting is my appetite aversion and eating more of an animal than just the normal muscle groups. I think it is going to be a rough road, but processing the animal myself I am hoping will make it a bit easier to, pardon the pun, stomach.

I'm guessing you're hunting whitetails? Deer heart, liver, and tongue are all pretty good. I've always fried deer heart in butter and it tastes great, especially for breakfast with some eggs. The tongue meat makes for awesome tacos too. The liver is hit or miss, but there are some decent recipes online. Worse case you can just throw it all into a sausage.

No matter how hard I try, I can't eat venison kidneys though. They almost always smell faintly of urine and there's no amount of Tobasco sauce that will cover that up.

Venison bone marrow is OK, but I never really got into it. My buddy's dog though absolutely love the stuff, so any time I went hunting, most of the large bones just went to him to prepare for his husky.

It can be a bit hard at first, but I feel like its more rewarding as a hunter to use as much of the animal as you can. I also think it's more ethical too since I was pretty much raised if you kill it you eat it. So I definitely commend you for at least exploring other parts of an animal.

 

[TexRex]

I suspect very little goes to waste in commercial processing operations. Obviously some offal is even intended for human consumption, but what isn't surely ends up in pet chow or even feed for animals that have yet to be slaughtered.

Hunting is another story. Anything for which you as the hunter don't find a purpose absolutely is wasted by you. I don't say this to denigrate anyone who is guilty of this but as a simple fact. Of course that isn't to say it's wasted outright, because it will still serve a purpose just as an animal that isn't killed by a person.

@Rallywagon I very highly recommend you check out the works of British chef Fergus Henderson, a major proponent of "nose to tail" cooking. Other hunters are also valuable sources of information.

@Joey D the kidneys, like anything, are all about preparation--but most of it happens without any heat at all. You obviously want to do your trimming, but then it's important to soak them with multiple changes of water. You'll want to avoid adding lemons thinking they'll help, and they might, but the acid also denatures the meat in a way that's less than desirable when cooked. A hunting cohort of mine swears by soaking in milk and insists a single overnight soak pulls the offending odors out.

The heart is prized. Tender but with just enough bite to make the act of eating it satisfying, but also so rich in flavor. I haven't had it myself, shockingly, but I know people even do venison heart tartare.

I don't seek out marrow specifically, but it invariably ends up flavoring stocks. So much of the flavor comes from the bones and marrow themselves that I'll burn myself picking off the meat as they cook.

...

I don't have access to any statistical evidence that supports this, but I'd wager there are more people on the planet who willingly consume the various viscera than there are who shun it; they're often delicacies for a reason.

 

[Rallywagon]

They were also fed to slaves for a reason. As you keenly point out, it's all about the preparation. Even lobster was at one time slave food.

 

[TexRex]

They were also fed to slaves for a reason. As you keenly point out, it's all about the preparation. Even lobster was at one time slave food.

Sure, it's cheap protein. Something is cheap because it's either plentiful or undesirable, and sometimes a combination of the two.

As for lobsters, well...look at them. The first schmuck to eat one of those things sure must have been hungry. Lobsters were once so plentiful that their being provided as food to prisoners on too regular a basis resulted in riots.

Some degree of preparation is frequently required to make something taste good...or even simply not be deadly. Look at the cassava root.

Looks a bit like a potato. It's a tuber that grows in abundance in parts of South America, and it has high caloric content (important when you lack other sources) and lots of nutrients. So you can imagine people were surprised when they began to slowly die from cyanide poisoning after eating large quantities of the vegetable.

They weren't deterred though, no, someone at some point thought it might be okay to eat once it was cooked. I wonder if they tested it themselves or gave it to someone they didn't like very much.

Fortunately for whoever ate it, cooking made it safe. They didn't stop at cooking though. Someone got the idea to ferment the root, dry it and pound it into a powdered starch that gave the vegetable more uses.

Thanks to those poor saps who died early on, we can now enjoy tapioca pudding.

 

[Rallywagon]

I wonder how much of the fermented foods and beverages we have are because someone said "bet you won't eat that..."

 

[Joey D]

I've always wondered how the Nordic people came up with Lutefisk. It's rotten fish jelly that actually dangerous to eat at one point because it's caustic. I've had it once and it was from a Minnesotan who served it as part of a holiday meal I had at their house. It wasn't the worst thing I ever ate, but I think once was enough. They had akvavit though which got me absolutely plastered and probably made the fish taste better than it really was.

@Joey D the kidneys, like anything, are all about preparation--but most of it happens without any heat at all. You obviously want to do your trimming, but then it's important to soak them with multiple changes of water. You'll want to avoid adding lemons thinking they'll help, and they might, but the acid also denatures the meat in a way that's less than desirable when cooked. A hunting cohort of mine swears by soaking in milk and insists a single overnight soak pulls the offending odors out.

I agree with the milk thing. When I small game hunt, I soak squirrels in milk and it pulls all the gamey taste out of them. I never really know what to do with them, so the meat typically gets diced up in chili along with venison. And now that I say that, it makes me sound like a real backwood Michigander, but putting woodland creatures in chili is a quintessential Michigan fall staple while we sit around drinking cheap beer and watching football.

 

[Rallywagon]

I've always wondered how the Nordic people came up with Lutefisk. It's rotten fish jelly that actually dangerous to eat at one point because it's caustic. I've had it once and it was from a Minnesotan who served it as part of a holiday meal I had at their house. It wasn't the worst thing I ever ate, but I think once was enough. They had akvavit though which got me absolutely plastered and probably made the fish taste better than it really was.



I agree with the milk thing. When I small game hunt, I soak squirrels in milk and it pulls all the gamey taste out of them. I never really know what to do with them, so the meat typically gets diced up in chili along with venison. And now that I say that, it makes me sound like a real backwood Michigander, but putting woodland creatures in chili is a quintessential Michigan fall staple while we sit around drinking cheap beer and watching football.

Founders and hockey myself. And grilled or fried back strap slices of venison. Havent had anything small game before though. I am not sure how the wife will feel about eating rabbit or squirrel, but I plan on finding out.

 

[TexRex]

Lutefisk

Is it "rotten"? I know it's dried for preservation and then rehydrated with a lye solution which denatures the flesh into a gelatinous consistency, before it's thoroughly rinsed to remove the harmful lye. I've had some that I'd actually like to have again, and I've had some that I very much would not like to have again.

Lye is actually commonly used in the processing of commercially canned tomatoes because it allows for the skin to be removed easily without affecting the flavor in the way that cooking the tomatoes does.

And I enjoy aquavit; I've actually got a bottle that I've been meaning to crack open for a while now. This week, methinks.

I agree with the milk thing. When I small game hunt, I soak squirrels in milk and it pulls all the gamey taste out of them. I never really know what to do with them, so the meat typically gets diced up in chili along with venison. And now that I say that, it makes me sound like a real backwood Michigander, but putting woodland creatures in chili is a quintessential Michigan fall staple while we sit around drinking cheap beer and watching football.

While I don't know for certain, I'd wager it's milk's complex protein structure--which is known to bond with lots of things--that is what's at play here.

And hey, no judgement whatsoever when it comes to eating "weird" things; I'm rather open-minded where food is concerned and if it's something that people eat, odds are pretty good I'm going to be willing to try it. It's true that you don't know what you're missing, and I don't want to miss anything.

I am not sure how the wife will feel about eating rabbit or squirrel, but I plan on finding out.

Hasenpfeffer!

 

[Exorcet]

GMOs are good for both the environment and the consumer.

I saw this in another thread and didn't want to derail it, it comes from a list of false information presented by PragerU. I want to know why this is there at all. It's completely true as far as I'm aware. GMO's provide us the ability to create food tailored to our needs whether that be robust crops or nutrients. I absolutely want them to dominate our food production. What am I missing that makes them bad?

 

[Rallywagon]

I saw this in another thread and didn't want to derail it, it comes from a list of false information presented by PragerU. I want to know why this is there at all. It's completely true as far as I'm aware. GMO's provide us the ability to create food tailored to our needs whether that be robust crops or nutrients. I absolutely want them to dominate our food production. What am I missing that makes them bad?

I think the issue is two fold. First is the idea that genetically modified conjures mental images of Rocksteady and Bebop-esque produce. The second is conflating all GMOs as being made by Monsanto and thus being inundated with round up.

 

[Danoff]

I saw this in another thread and didn't want to derail it, it comes from a list of false information presented by PragerU. I want to know why this is there at all. It's completely true as far as I'm aware. GMO's provide us the ability to create food tailored to our needs whether that be robust crops or nutrients. I absolutely want them to dominate our food production. What am I missing that makes them bad?

Non-GMO is more like anti-vax than most people seem to realize. I cringe a bit when I see it advertised (I'm looking at you Chipotle).

 

[Exorcet]

I think the issue is two fold. First is the idea that genetically modified conjures mental images of Rocksteady and Bebop-esque produce. The second is conflating all GMOs as being made by Monsanto and thus being inundated with round up.

That worries me, especially the second bit. "I don't want chemicals in my food, so I'm going to oppose something completely unrelated to chemicals". I can understand being skeptical of something initially, it only makes sense to be cautious, but GMO opposition sometimes seems to defy logic.

Non-GMO is more like anti-vax than most people seem to realize. I cringe a bit when I see it advertised (I'm looking at you Chipotle).

Pretty much. In my head I equate GMO free signs to something like "We refuse to acquire the highest quality ingredients!"

 

[GranTurNismo]

I was about to post the damages that are caused by GMOs in this thread now, but judging by the responses of of others in this thread, maybe it’s better if I stay quiet.

 

[UKMikey]

https://royalsociety.org/topics-pol...ve-gm-crops-caused-damage-to-the-environment/

 

[Exorcet]

I was about to post the damages that are caused by GMOs in this thread now, but judging by the responses of of others in this thread, maybe it’s better if I stay quiet.

Better how? If I'm saying something ignorant or stupid, you being quiet isn't going to change that.

https://royalsociety.org/topics-pol...ve-gm-crops-caused-damage-to-the-environment/

Seems to support my opinion, GMO problems, if any, don't actually come from GM.

 

[UKMikey]

Seems to support my opinion, GMO problems, if any, don't actually come from GM.

Yes, I did read the article before posting a link to it.

 

[Exorcet]

Yes, I did read the article before posting a link to it.

I wasn't implying anything about your stance, you didn't leave any comment with the link.

 

[BobK]

I was about to post the damages that are caused by GMOs in this thread now, but judging by the responses of of others in this thread, maybe it’s better if I stay quiet.

Please enlighten us then.

 

[Joey D]

I try to eat healthy food that doesn't contain GMOs or hormones. That's why I buy food from farmers.

What's wrong with GMOs? If anything they help the environment by making crops less reliant on harmful pesticides and herbicides. I'd rather a farmer use a genetically modified version of corn that resisted bugs and disease over them dumping thousands of gallons of harmful chemicals all over them that essentially kill off pollinators like bees.

 

[Scaff]

What's wrong with GMOs? If anything they help the environment by making crops less reliant on harmful pesticides and herbicides. I'd rather a farmer use a genetically modified version of corn that resisted bugs and disease over them dumping thousands of gallons of harmful chemicals all over them that essentially kill off pollinators like bees.

Not to mention that eating food that hasn't been genetically modified is nigh on impossiable.

 

[TexRex]

Non-GMO is more like anti-vax than most people seem to realize.

You really hit the nail on the nose with this; I've actually used it a couple times in conversation since.