Genesis X Gran Berlinetta Vision Gran Turismo Concept

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This is the discussion thread for an article on GTPlanet:

Gran Turismo 7’s New Genesis Vision GT Car to be Revealed on December 2

When the special events for the Gran Turismo World Finals were unveiled for GT7 last week, they revealed a mysterious new Vision GT project car was coming to the game. Today, we have official confirmation that new car will be coming from Genesis, the luxury spin-off marque from Hyundai...
 
Meh... I mean, it looks to be closer to a production car than a lot of them, but still not too interested. I hope it's expensive as I'll be getting one for free through the viewer's campaign like I did with the Fezza.
 
I never got the point of these vision cars. It just seems fake.
Are there any aspects of these cars that are making it Into a production line, or is this just marketing? Serious question.
 
mef
I never got the point of these vision cars. It just seems fake.
Are there any aspects of these cars that are making it Into a production line, or is this just marketing? Serious question.
Some of the technology that is being showed off will probably trickle down to future roadgoing cars, but this is just an assumption on my end and I haven't yet done any research to back it up. However I am not a big fan of VGTs because they lack utility and I'd much rather have any other road car instead. I am likely going to buy this car just to maintain a full car collection and then never touch it again.

I am curious though about the track shown in the video. Is that one existing in the game?
 
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The Subaru VGT displayed 4WD torque vectoring. That debuted in the WRX same year or the year after the VGT. Correct me if I’m wrong.

Edit: Just looked it up.

Subaru VGT debuted 2014
turning ability while cornering is drastically improved, while the torque vectoring lamps built into the fenders visualize its movement.


From 2015:
For 2015, the WRX employs a new Active Torque Vectoring system, an enhancement of the Vehicle Dynamics Control (VDC) system that allows for improved agility.

We’ll wait and see if the Genesis VGT have any new technologies that make it to the road cars.
 
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Why everyone is hyped for flat out physically impossible (in most cases) cars is absolutely and hilariously absurd to me. Thats like being hyped for an iPhone with a terabyte of storage. Never gonna happen, or it'll happen so far down the line it won't be that cool anymore. It's not like we need more real cars.. Or tracks.. Or races... Nah, keep shoveling this pile of impossible dog droppings
 
Why everyone is hyped for flat out physically impossible (in most cases) cars is absolutely and hilariously absurd to me. Thats like being hyped for an iPhone with a terabyte of storage. Never gonna happen, or it'll happen so far down the line it won't be that cool anymore. It's not like we need more real cars.. Or tracks.. Or races... Nah, keep shoveling this pile of impossible dog droppings
Who are “everyone”? Doesn’t include me, thats for sure.
It’s the same as “everyone” getting all boo hoo about another VGT car in the game. It goes both ways about the whinging pouting and crying about fictional cars(in most cases, but maybe 50/50, gotta check the number of real VGTs to non-built ones).

These VGTs are basically call outs for car companies to dream. Same as asking kids to draw a car of the future. Doesn’t matter if it’s made or not. It’s what these car companies designed to share and PD placed in the game for players to use or not.
 
mef
I never got the point of these vision cars. It just seems fake.
Are there any aspects of these cars that are making it Into a production line, or is this just marketing? Serious question.
It's mostly a brand building/marketing exercise for the manufacturer and PD. Some of them previews future styling direction, or future "possible" technology. But of course in concept car form they always exaggerate specs and looks a little bit.

Looking at them one by one:
Mercedes - nothing outlandish about the specs. It's basically SLS AMG with an ultra swoopy body. Full scale model used in BvS movie.
BMW - one of the more realistic ones. Looks pretty much production/race ready.
Mitsubishi - based on the XR PHEV crossover that later becomes Eclipse Cross. Specs also pretty modest.
Volkswagen - basically a hotted up GTI. Don't forget VW actually made a W12 powered GTI Mk5 which is way crazier.
Nissan - some styling cues like the rear taillight made it into the Italdesign GT-R 50. Specs are pretty realistic and the new Nissan Hyper Force concept is way more outlandish.
Aston - taillights made it into the Vulcan. Inspired the Valkyrie as the first production MR Aston (there was the Aston Bulldog but it's a one off).
Toyota - became the GR Supra.
Subaru - based on the Viziv concept. Front and rear lights inspired current WRX. Torque vectoring tech commonplace now.
Chaparral - unrealistic.
Infiniti - not based on anything but Infiniti hasn't come out with anything exciting in a while. Specs are reasonable.
Mazda - basically a mashup of 787B and Furai. Standard LMP1 specs.
Mini - hotted up Mini Clubman.
Alpine - basically Alpine A450 LMP2 with a new body.
Lexus - basically LC500 Super GT car with a few styling tweaks.
Peugeot VGT - reminds me a lot of the Peugeot Onyx or Quasar concept with its super low & wide body. Specs are similar to the 908 LMP1.
Peugeot LR - looks are pure concept but the powertain is similar to LMP1 hybrids.
Dodge - the S variant is typical hypercar specs. GTS-R is more outlandish but still possible. The X is pure fantasy.
Hyundai - looks wise similar to the Peugeot 9X8 with its wingless design. Powertrain wise fuel cell tech producing that much power with that little weight is still some years off.
Bugatti - became the Bolide.
Fittipaldi - production run planned before company went bankrupt.
McLaren - became the Solus, although the prone seating position is removed and it has a more conventional ICE engine.
Daihatsu - basically a tuned Copen.
Zagato - styling exercise mostly. Specs are modest.
Honda - basically baby NSX or a grown up S660. Specs are reasonable except the weight maybe.
Audi - a fully functioning real car was made, used as demo runs at Formula E events I believe.
Lambo - powertrain from the Sian, looks like a more extreme version of their SC63 LMH car.
Jaguar - lots of electric hypercars are making 2000 HP already (Rimac Nevera, Pininfarina Battista, Lotus Evija), but the weight is probably unrealistically light (and the range).
Porsche - became the Mission X concept, which will be the 918 fully electric replacement.
Suzuki - lots of people Hayabusa swap into cars, but I dunno about joining 2 engines together and adding a hybrid system. Plausible, but probably won't be as lightweight.
Ferrari - basically rebodied 499P.
Italdesign - reminds me of the Axiam Mega Track but electric. Not having a windshield is stupid though.

So there you go. The only ones that are clearly flights of fancy are Chaparral and Dodge. The hybrid and EV ones are realistic power wise, but just the weight are too optimistic. The others are well within the realm of possibility, and you can trace some connection to existing cars or concepts that previews future design directions.

I think the problem people have is, these cars take away resources from PD. Instead of having popular road or race cars added, we get these concept cars that have very little use in game beyond marketing. They have wildly varying specs so can't race against each other. They don't have lots of events in game that provides good racing. They can't be upgraded or visually customized beyond liveries. Lots don't have a cockpit view. Most of them have very low and stiff suspensions that makes them handle terribly (and you cannot tune them). And some have multiple variants and even near identical Gr.3/Gr.1 copies that just differ in power/weight slightly, further bloating the car count.

The project started way back in GT6 as a way to celebrate GT's 15th Anniversary. And now we are reaching the 25th Anniversary and it's still incomplete. PD should just hurry up and add the remaining ones in a single update, and then we don't need to hear anymore of it. Then they can spend time adding real cars that people actually want.
 
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Hope this is not an EV. From the article it is believed to a gas engine but we'll have to wait and see
 
If these vgt’s would exist within their own category and worked into the daily races. Cool. It would be a nice occasional something different.

Current implementation: every time I see these cars entering the game it reminds me of the missing, currently used, cars racing in WEC and IMSA…which makes me hate both them and their manufacturers for taking resources.

..not unlike some rando snow rally track as the only thing which has arrived in what feels like an eon.
 
Still gonna need proof on how these "take away resources" while being cars that DON'T need to be scanned nor have anywhere near the amount of refinement and work as the Real cars (Or even the fictional cars purposefully modelled for GR.3 and GR.4). I'll wait to see who actually provides that evidence and isn't just hiding behind the resource nonsense because yet again it isn't what they want (the exact same complaint thrown around when a REAL HiAce Ambulance gets added).

But sure, lets keep conveniently ignoring the fact that literally every single major update has given this game real cars and also pretend THAT'S gonna address a still less then ideal single player experience (and questionable economy) that many still aren't thrilled about.
 
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I just seriously hope it's not an EV.

(Still also waiting for a hybrid version of the Porsche VGT.)
I doubt, it will be at least hybrid if is not EV completely.
Probably will be another " useless " car as the majority of them especially the EV ones.
 
Still gonna need proof on how these "take away resources" while being cars that DON'T need to be scanned nor have anywhere near the amount of refinement and work as the Real cars (Or even the fictional cars purposefully modelled for GR.3 and GR.4). I'll wait to see who actually provides that evidence and isn't just hiding behind the resource nonsense because yet again it isn't what they want (the exact same complaint thrown around when a REAL HiAce Ambulance gets added).

But sure, lets keep conveniently ignoring the fact that literally every single major update has given this game real cars and also pretend THAT'S gonna address a still less then ideal single player experience (and questionable economy) that many still aren't thrilled about.
It takes away development resources because the modellers and programmers still have to spend time to make them work in game. You don't need to send out people to photograph and record the sound, but these people are DIFFERENT from the modellers/programmers anyway so that's not the bottleneck. I spend a lot of time in the Assetto modding thread and it's a lot of work putting a car in a game even if you already have a 3D/CAD model scanned and ready.

Capture team > modeller + programmer (this step is the bottleneck) > test driver > players.

- The raw CAD data have to be optimised for the game (often they're multiple GB in size and no way it would run on a home console, let alone with 20 other cars on a track).

- You need a fully detailed model for dealer/garage/photomode, and several lower quality models for racing depending on how far the car is from the player. These are called LODs - level of detail. GT6 introduced adaptive tesselation which semi automates this, but they still need to optimised everything and make sure there are no glitches.

- Interior need to be modelled (if any). Also driver animations - how they hold and turn the wheel, how they shift gears, etc.

- Textures - the 3D model is just the "surface". Textures is what material the surface is made of and they need to look realistic (e.g. carbon, metal, leather, plastic, etc). Need to be done for every inch of exterior and interior.

- Stock paints/liveries - need to be made and correct colours captured at HDR level.

- Physics - the manufacturer's raw data need to be inputted into the game, sometimes VGTs have extreme performance or lots of extra features that takes time to implement because no other car has them (Chaparral's laser propulsion, Tomahawk's active aero, holographic interiors, etc). Then they need to be test driven. Also check if AI can drive them properly around a wide variety of circuits.

- Sound - without real car to record from, they have to create this from scratch. Possibly the hardest part of making a VGT compared to a real car.

- UI - this is the easy part. They need to code the car to appear in the dealer, add price (and the selling price cycle), spec sheet, info blurbs in the garage and GT Cafe. Also add tuning parts and GT Auto customization (even if only livery editor, they need to map out which body sections can be painted or not).

So you see, still quite A LOT of work even if PD receives the 3D data and specs from manufacturer directly. One person making the VGT is one person less able to make other highly requested cars. If PD gives us 10 cars per month then 1 VGT isn't an issue. But with only 3 cars per month, if one of them is VGT then it is an issue.

Copies of the same car, like the Peugeot VGT and Gr.3 version, do take less time to make. But in the end of the day it's still car count padding.

Oh and I love the HiMedic btw. And I'm not complaining about the Genesis. But there are hundreds of other cars I'd like to see prioritised. And the other problems about single player and economy is all down the Kaz/game design decisions. Nothing to do with the car modeller and programmers.
 
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It's mostly a brand building/marketing exercise for the manufacturer and PD. Some of them previews future styling direction, or future "possible" technology. But of course in concept car form they always exaggerate specs and looks a little bit.

Looking at them one by one:
Mercedes - nothing outlandish about the specs. It's basically SLS AMG with an ultra swoopy body. Full scale model used in BvS movie.
BMW - one of the more realistic ones. Looks pretty much production/race ready.
Mitsubishi - based on the XR PHEV crossover that later becomes Eclipse Cross. Specs also pretty modest.
Volkswagen - basically a hotted up GTI. Don't forget VW actually made a W12 powered GTI Mk5 which is way crazier.
Nissan - some styling cues like the rear taillight made it into the Italdesign GT-R 50. Specs are pretty realistic and the new Nissan Hyper Force concept is way more outlandish.
Aston - taillights made it into the Vulcan. Inspired the Valkyrie as the first production MR Aston (there was the Aston Bulldog but it's a one off).
Toyota - became the GR Supra.
Subaru - based on the Viziv concept. Front and rear lights inspired current WRX. Torque vectoring tech commonplace now.
Chaparral - unrealistic.
Infiniti - not based on anything but Infiniti hasn't come out with anything exciting in a while. Specs are reasonable.
Mazda - basically a mashup of 787B and Furai. Standard LMP1 specs.
Mini - hotted up Mini Clubman.
Alpine - basically Alpine A450 LMP2 with a new body.
Lexus - basically LC500 Super GT car with a few styling tweaks.
Peugeot VGT - reminds me a lot of the Peugeot Onyx or Quasar concept with its super low & wide body. Specs are similar to the 908 LMP1.
Peugeot LR - looks are pure concept but the powertain is similar to LMP1 hybrids.
Dodge - the S variant is typical hypercar specs. GTS-R is more outlandish but still possible. The X is pure fantasy.
Hyundai - looks wise similar to the Peugeot 9X8 with its wingless design. Powertrain wise fuel cell tech producing that much power with that little weight is still some years off.
Bugatti - became the Bolide.
Fittipaldi - production run planned before company went bankrupt.
McLaren - became the Solus, although the prone seating position is removed and it has a more conventional ICE engine.
Daihatsu - basically a tuned Copen.
Zagato - styling exercise mostly. Specs are modest.
Honda - basically baby NSX or a grown up S660. Specs are reasonable except the weight maybe.
Audi - a fully functioning real car was made, used as demo runs at Formula E events I believe.
Lambo - powertrain from the Sian, looks like a more extreme version of their SC63 LMH car.
Jaguar - lots of electric hypercars are making 2000 HP already (Rimac Nevera, Pininfarina Battista, Lotus Evija), but the weight is probably unrealistically light (and the range).
Porsche - became the Mission X concept, which will be the 918 fully electric replacement.
Suzuki - lots of people Hayabusa swap into cars, but I dunno about joining 2 engines together and adding a hybrid system. Plausible, but probably won't be as lightweight.
Ferrari - basically rebodied 499P.
Italdesign - reminds me of the Axiam Mega Track but electric. Not having a windshield is stupid though.

So there you go. The only ones that are clearly flights of fancy are Chaparral and Dodge. The hybrid and EV ones are realistic power wise, but just the weight are too optimistic. The others are well within the realm of possibility, and you can trace some connection to existing cars or concepts that previews future design directions.

I think the problem people have is, these cars take away resources from PD. Instead of having popular road or race cars added, we get these concept cars that have very little use in game beyond marketing. They have wildly varying specs so can't race against each other. They don't have lots of events in game that provides good racing. They can't be upgraded or visually customized beyond liveries. Lots don't have a cockpit view. Most of them have very low and stiff suspensions that makes them handle terribly (and you cannot tune them). And some have multiple variants and even near identical Gr.3/Gr.1 copies that just differ in power/weight slightly, further bloating the car count.

The project started way back in GT6 as a way to celebrate GT's 15th Anniversary. And now we are reaching the 25th Anniversary and it's still incomplete. PD should just hurry up and add the remaining ones in a single update, and then we don't need to hear anymore of it. Then they can spend time adding real cars that people actually want.

The thing that bugs me about these cars is the lack of realism of some of them. You mention the car by Jaguar with 2000hp and artificially low weights.

It also bugs me that these cars were sold to us by PD as real engineering exercises. Well, it turns out the maybe the standards have slipped there a little bit and many cars are artificially fast. So there is a bit of marketing smoke & mirror going on there, or I guess dishonesty of what PD are doing here (does PD get paid money by the manufacturers to put them in?).

Don't get me wrong, I like fast racing. But when I want fast scifi racing I boot up wipeout. To me these cars are the wrong direction for GT unless they are really 100% physically doable.

My main enjoyment playing GT is comparing cars to each other, lapping them, seeing them produce laptimes they can produce in real life and seeing the care PD put in in recreating sim models that actually match the real cars fairly closely (I run a lot of laps around nurbs for example to see how close the times are to real times on comparable tires). And for my particular enjoyment of GT these VGS cars turn that aspect of GT on its head and I really don't like them for that.

I can ignore them of course but wince everytime PD make a fuss about another update for them.
 
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It takes away development resources because the modellers and programmers still have to spend time to make them work in game. You don't need to send out people to photograph and record the sound, but these people are DIFFERENT from the modellers/programmers anyway so that's not the bottleneck. I spend a lot of time in the Assetto modding thread and it's a lot of work putting a car in a game even if you already have a 3D/CAD model scanned and ready.

Capture team > modeller + programmer (this step is the bottleneck) > test driver > players.

- The raw CAD data have to be optimised for the game (often they're multiple GB in size and no way it would run on a home console, let alone with 20 other cars on a track).

- You need a fully detailed model for dealer/garage/photomode, and several lower quality models for racing depending on how far the car is from the player. These are called LODs - level of detail. GT6 introduced adaptive tesselation which semi automates this, but they still need to optimised everything and make sure there are no glitches.

- Interior need to be modelled (if any). Also driver animations - how they hold and turn the wheel, how they shift gears, etc.

- Textures - the 3D model is just the "surface". Textures is what material the surface is made of and they need to look realistic (e.g. carbon, metal, leather, plastic, etc). Need to be done for every inch of exterior and interior.

- Stock paints/liveries - need to be made and correct colours captured at HDR level.

- Physics - the manufacturer's raw data need to be inputted into the game, sometimes VGTs have extreme performance or lots of extra features that takes time to implement because no other car has them (Chaparral's laser propulsion, Tomahawk's active aero, holographic interiors, etc). Then they need to be test driven. Also check if AI can drive them properly around a wide variety of circuits.

- Sound - without real car to record from, they have to create this from scratch. Possibly the hardest part of making a VGT compared to a real car.

- UI - this is the easy part. They need to code the car to appear in the dealer, add price (and the selling price cycle), spec sheet, info blurbs in the garage and GT Cafe. Also add tuning parts and GT Auto customization (even if only livery editor, they need to map out which body sections can be painted or not).

So you see, still quite A LOT of work even if PD receives the 3D data and specs from manufacturer directly. One person making the VGT is one person less able to make other highly requested cars. If PD gives us 10 cars per month then 1 VGT isn't an issue. But with only 3 cars per month, if one of them is VGT then it is an issue.

Copies of the same car, like the Peugeot VGT and Gr.3 version, do take less time to make. But in the end of the day it's still car count padding.

Oh and I love the HiMedic btw. And I'm not complaining about the Genesis. But there are hundreds of other cars I'd like to see prioritised. And the other problems about single player and economy is all down the Kaz/game design decisions. Nothing to do with the car modeller and programmers.

For that matter, VGTs take considerably less time than almost anything else to make, because there is no car to scan. PD get the digital CAD files right from the manufacturer. They're the easiest (relatively speaking) cars to produce - while the fictional Gr3 cars are the biggest time sink of all.

We're not talking about a modelling team being too busy to make models of real cars (that they don't have the licence to include anyway) because of Vision GT. No VGT is taking the place of a real car you could have had instead. It's taking the place of... nothing.
 
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