Gran Turismo 7: Class/PP System discussion
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- 669
- Florida
- scorfano913
I hope they are more dependent on the PP System rather than the N Classes
- 36
- United States
Based on the trailer alone, it looks like the PP system will be exclusive to single player (and hopefully custom online lobbies) while the GT Sport styled category system will be exclusive to online / sport mode. I feel like this would explain why we see Gr. 3 cars racing against Gr. X lemans cars in the demo race, as they might all be similarly matched in PP.
- 669
- Florida
- scorfano913
Or they’re just showing the 917K off in the trailer...
- 1,548
- Singapore
- XSquareStickIt
I really hope the PP system gets constant adjustments like BoP in Sport, with player feedback. Let's not forget that the PP system isn't perfect, either. It's just WAY better than the joke of a N class system, which I'll be surprised if it's more than a placeholder.
If both the N classing system and PP make it into the final product, I hope lobbies at least will allow players to toggle them off and on independently. For example, I want a N400 race with a 550PP cap, or just a N400 Race, OR just a 550PP race.
If both the N classing system and PP make it into the final product, I hope lobbies at least will allow players to toggle them off and on independently. For example, I want a N400 race with a 550PP cap, or just a N400 Race, OR just a 550PP race.
- 1,446
- Indonesia
N Classes should just be used as a car class indicator, while every restriction are handled by PP. I mean games like Forza doesn't decide performance by using the letters (D, C, A, etc.)
- 1,371
- Serbia
- Warlock__SRB
...generally the grouping system that is currently in GTS should be scrapped altogether, I have nothing against it when using GT3/Gr3 cars... but every other aspect is stupid and not balanced at all...
In each N class you'll have a car that is beyond everything else... look just at original GT40. X-Bow, 4C... those three are basically go to cars when driving in lower N classes... We never had N800-N1000 race, why would we at all, it would be LaFerrari as go to car... Charger cannot compete...
Then there is Gr4 class, we have one GT4 car (Cayman), one car that in real live uses P2P system and is one make racer (TT) and then they've put in bunch of other cars just to fill up group... why not get in real GT4 cars (there are plenty)?
The Gr2 class... is most balanced of all TBH, but only if you use same year cars... '08 cars are much more similar to todays GT3 cars then to GT500s, and what does PD do, bump up power making those cars undrivable... Take for example NSX '08 and drive it in it's stock form (P100/W100) around Suzuka... it is joy to drive it, and it is not that much slower then '16 cars... but bump it's power up and you'll get oversteer action all the time...
And then famous Gr1... donno where to start here... VGTs... need to go (not that I don't like them, but there is no place for those cars in this group). There needs to be separation of Group C cars from LMP cars... and between LMPs alone, there needs to be separation within generations.
GrX is a dumpster for cars...
I understand why PD did this TBH, they wanted for GTS to be a competitive racer where one player could choose it's preferred car manufacturer and drive those cars in races. I get this... but why insisting on doing something that is not that easy, why insisting having only one car brand through turnament. Wouldn't it be easy that every player chooses his preferred brand within each category? Who cares if there is no GT3 Subaru in GTS, I'll take BMW... who cares if there is no GT4 Aston Martin, I'll take Porsche... It would be much more balanced... especially considering real life BoP is ongoing and pretty good, and there is for each track special setting...
I'm not saying PP was great in GT5/6 but it was much better then this grouping system. Also I see a great deal how both systems could work together... And I am convinced they will work together... So let's say we have a Gr3 race going on, so automatically only Gr3/GT3 car are eligible for race, however not all Gr3/GT3 cars have same PP rating, so PP rating will come in play there... Right now as it is we have percentage for fiddling the BoP, and even though it sounds great, it is not that precise... you simply cannot increase car for 1hp, or 1kg... it is impossible... it is 1% of whatever base hp or weight it has. so if it weights 1400kg, it is 14kg, if it has 500hp, it is 5hp... with PP, it can be more fine tuned...
Also aero was part of PP back in GT6, while in GT5 it wasn't... now I am not sure if this is going to be the case here, but we will need to see this...
All in all, I think it is great addition to the game, and possibility to use cars that were unusable up until now (looking at GrX)...
One can only wish there were more of these sub-classes (dividing Gr4, Gr1), and N class shouldn't be dividied by 100/200...1000, it should be just GrN and PP should decide what cars are eligible to race.
But we will see... I am looking forward to this system, I hope we will get more cars and tracks to play with, additional settings for custom BoP in MP would be nice addition with eligible car list... and mostly I hope we won't need to wait long time for this game.
...that's just me...
In each N class you'll have a car that is beyond everything else... look just at original GT40. X-Bow, 4C... those three are basically go to cars when driving in lower N classes... We never had N800-N1000 race, why would we at all, it would be LaFerrari as go to car... Charger cannot compete...
Then there is Gr4 class, we have one GT4 car (Cayman), one car that in real live uses P2P system and is one make racer (TT) and then they've put in bunch of other cars just to fill up group... why not get in real GT4 cars (there are plenty)?
The Gr2 class... is most balanced of all TBH, but only if you use same year cars... '08 cars are much more similar to todays GT3 cars then to GT500s, and what does PD do, bump up power making those cars undrivable... Take for example NSX '08 and drive it in it's stock form (P100/W100) around Suzuka... it is joy to drive it, and it is not that much slower then '16 cars... but bump it's power up and you'll get oversteer action all the time...
And then famous Gr1... donno where to start here... VGTs... need to go (not that I don't like them, but there is no place for those cars in this group). There needs to be separation of Group C cars from LMP cars... and between LMPs alone, there needs to be separation within generations.
GrX is a dumpster for cars...
I understand why PD did this TBH, they wanted for GTS to be a competitive racer where one player could choose it's preferred car manufacturer and drive those cars in races. I get this... but why insisting on doing something that is not that easy, why insisting having only one car brand through turnament. Wouldn't it be easy that every player chooses his preferred brand within each category? Who cares if there is no GT3 Subaru in GTS, I'll take BMW... who cares if there is no GT4 Aston Martin, I'll take Porsche... It would be much more balanced... especially considering real life BoP is ongoing and pretty good, and there is for each track special setting...
I'm not saying PP was great in GT5/6 but it was much better then this grouping system. Also I see a great deal how both systems could work together... And I am convinced they will work together... So let's say we have a Gr3 race going on, so automatically only Gr3/GT3 car are eligible for race, however not all Gr3/GT3 cars have same PP rating, so PP rating will come in play there... Right now as it is we have percentage for fiddling the BoP, and even though it sounds great, it is not that precise... you simply cannot increase car for 1hp, or 1kg... it is impossible... it is 1% of whatever base hp or weight it has. so if it weights 1400kg, it is 14kg, if it has 500hp, it is 5hp... with PP, it can be more fine tuned...
Also aero was part of PP back in GT6, while in GT5 it wasn't... now I am not sure if this is going to be the case here, but we will need to see this...
All in all, I think it is great addition to the game, and possibility to use cars that were unusable up until now (looking at GrX)...
One can only wish there were more of these sub-classes (dividing Gr4, Gr1), and N class shouldn't be dividied by 100/200...1000, it should be just GrN and PP should decide what cars are eligible to race.
But we will see... I am looking forward to this system, I hope we will get more cars and tracks to play with, additional settings for custom BoP in MP would be nice addition with eligible car list... and mostly I hope we won't need to wait long time for this game.
...that's just me...
- 735
- Maryland, USA
Thank god they brought Performance Points back, It was basically impossible to create fair races in open lobbies without it, and BoP didn't work unless the cars were the same type of vehicle. (Hatchbacks, sedans, ect.)
...With Performance Points back, maybe we will get Shuffle races to return as well
...With Performance Points back, maybe we will get Shuffle races to return as well
- 735
- Maryland, USA
I wish they'd completely scrap the Class system, it seemed so worthless to me in GT Sport for everything that wasn't sport mode itself. If you made a lobby or something while restricting a certain N-Class, they wouldn't even be balanced with BoP most of the time.
- 1,446
- Indonesia
True, performance point take account into everything in a car unlike class system which only takes amount of HP. I immediately know this is no good when first seeing it on GT Sport. But it seems that the Class thing now only used to classify cars, like for example, letters in Forza (D, C, B, A, etc.).
Honestly I want the car stats (top speed, acceleration, cornering, braking, stability) GT currently has this time to be reworked so it can be reliable and correspond with PP.
- 4,373
- Connecticut
- Ridley-X4
Here's what I want, for the most part:
-Gr.1V for vintage prototypes, such as the Ferrari 330 P4.
-Gr.3V for vintage grand tourers, such as the Shelby Daytona Coupe.
-NE-Series for electric-only cars, like the BMW i3 and Tesla Model S.
-Gr.C for pre-Group B rally cars, such as the Lancia Stratos.
-(EDIT: Also, a Gr.D for D1GP cars.)
Also, I bet Gr.B will be expanded to include more Pikes Peak/Group B cars, as many automakers with famous Group B cars are absent from GTS' Gr.B, such as the Peugeot 205 T16 Evo II, the Lancia 037, the Daihatsu Charade, the Renault 5 Maxi Turbo, and the Mitsubishi Starion. I wonder if post-Group B rally cars will be in Gr.B, too, such as the Suzuki Escudo Pikes Peak, and that Peugeot 208 that they scanned some time ago. Even some unraced Group B cars could appear in Gr.B, such as the Porsche 959 and Ferrari GTO.
I also wanna see more interesting vehicle limitations for races, like a Gr.1 race that only permits Group C cars, or an N-Series race that only permits pickup trucks. Otherwise, I think the group system is largely fine - it's more of how the vehicle regulations are laid out that's the issue, I'd say. Like how every single Gr.1 race permits every possible Gr.1 car, but we've had Gr.4 races that only permit the FF cars within that class.
Also, I think more cars could appear in Gr.1, especially stuff from classes including LMP900, LMGTP, WSC, and DPi. This could respectively allow BMW, Bentley, Ferrari, and Chevrolet into Gr.1, among others such as Alfa Romeo, Shelby, Pontiac, and Cadillac.
I'm just not sure about the late-90s GT1 cars, like the longtail McLaren F1 GTR, the Nissan R390, or the Mercedes-Benz CLK-GTR. I genuinely can't tell if they would fit into Gr.2 or Gr.1.
-Gr.1V for vintage prototypes, such as the Ferrari 330 P4.
-Gr.3V for vintage grand tourers, such as the Shelby Daytona Coupe.
-NE-Series for electric-only cars, like the BMW i3 and Tesla Model S.
-Gr.C for pre-Group B rally cars, such as the Lancia Stratos.
-(EDIT: Also, a Gr.D for D1GP cars.)
Also, I bet Gr.B will be expanded to include more Pikes Peak/Group B cars, as many automakers with famous Group B cars are absent from GTS' Gr.B, such as the Peugeot 205 T16 Evo II, the Lancia 037, the Daihatsu Charade, the Renault 5 Maxi Turbo, and the Mitsubishi Starion. I wonder if post-Group B rally cars will be in Gr.B, too, such as the Suzuki Escudo Pikes Peak, and that Peugeot 208 that they scanned some time ago. Even some unraced Group B cars could appear in Gr.B, such as the Porsche 959 and Ferrari GTO.
I also wanna see more interesting vehicle limitations for races, like a Gr.1 race that only permits Group C cars, or an N-Series race that only permits pickup trucks. Otherwise, I think the group system is largely fine - it's more of how the vehicle regulations are laid out that's the issue, I'd say. Like how every single Gr.1 race permits every possible Gr.1 car, but we've had Gr.4 races that only permit the FF cars within that class.
Also, I think more cars could appear in Gr.1, especially stuff from classes including LMP900, LMGTP, WSC, and DPi. This could respectively allow BMW, Bentley, Ferrari, and Chevrolet into Gr.1, among others such as Alfa Romeo, Shelby, Pontiac, and Cadillac.
I'm just not sure about the late-90s GT1 cars, like the longtail McLaren F1 GTR, the Nissan R390, or the Mercedes-Benz CLK-GTR. I genuinely can't tell if they would fit into Gr.2 or Gr.1.
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- 4,373
- Connecticut
- Ridley-X4
I disagree. Some VGTs already have a high resemblance to LMPs, such as those from Mazda and Hyundai. Some cars also had a high resemblance to that possible LMP successor class, namely the Peugeot Gr.1 VGT when compared to the Peugeot-Rebellion car that had an official render months ago. Also, I would never pit a Ferrari 330 P4 against a Shelby Daytona Coupe, even with BoP. It'd be like putting a Gr.3 car with a Gr.1 car. They even raced in separate classes in real life, in the same races, and not as one class being a successor to another like LMPs and Group C. I think the groups just need more interesting vehicle limitations instead of just permitting every car within that class to be eligible. This could be reflected in the campaign, too, such as a Gr.1 event that only permits the Group C cars.
I also would have the NE-Series have horsepower numbers just like the regular N-Series, e.g. NE100, instead of a simple E1, E2, etc.
However, any cars that can use a boost, ERS, or DRS would stay in Gr.X, like the P1 GTR, or some of the Gr.X-spec VGTs like the Lexus LF-LC GT, as well as the two SF19 cars. Although, I wonder if the two SF19 could be consolidated somehow, either into a single "Gr.SF" class, or some other way. I think they're not in a given class because they're so similar, that BoP wouldn't have any effect. But I think that whenever an event allows the SF19, both should be eligible. And any car that uses boost/ERS/DRS would be overpowered if kept in the N-Series, so I think Gr.X should also include track-only cars that aren't street legal, even if they don't have those features, like the Aston Martin Vulcan, or the Pagani Zonda R. Meanwhile, a car like the BAC Mono would indeed be in the N-Series, as it's still street-legal. Even some of the crazier homologation specials would, like those for the Toyota TS020 or the Nissan R390. Heck, we can already see a Porsche 911 GT1 road car in the trailer!
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- 669
- Florida
- scorfano913
The N/Gr classes will be general categories for all the cars in GT7, but the PP will be used for online, GT World and maybe the FIA events. I’m pretty sure a Tundra/Raptor won’t be racing a Countach or V8 Vantage in this game like in GT Sport... or unless they do it on purpose for the heck of it 
- 4,500
- Australia
Probably worth merging this thread and https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/threads/gt7-classification-system.394288/ together.
In short, theres lots PD can do around classification to ensure that theres more variety of challenges with the cars they already have, instead of the dumping ground that N + X classes currently are.
Cars should be eligible for multiple classes based on the type of car, not just on the performance characteristics, and each class/category should have its own BoP option.
In short, theres lots PD can do around classification to ensure that theres more variety of challenges with the cars they already have, instead of the dumping ground that N + X classes currently are.
Cars should be eligible for multiple classes based on the type of car, not just on the performance characteristics, and each class/category should have its own BoP option.
- 1,446
- Indonesia
N is the class, PP is the actual measurement. Now the N Classes are like, for example, the letters (D, C, B, A, etc.) in Forza.
- 4,500
- Australia
If I read that correctly, then what you've described is the same as N classes in GT Sport, except where the PP acts as the Balance of Performance.
Looking at Forza's classes, you have an Alfa TZ2 and F150 raptor in the same class. That's just a mess, there needs to be more specific categories available.
- 3,825
- Philippines
- GBalao888
- GBalao888
If there would be an ability to re-classify and/or add new categories, I hope this'll work this way like:
Gr. 1 - LMP, Group C, Le Mans Hypercar, including homologated Vision GT cars
Gr. 2 - LMP2, DPi, 1990's GT1 (e.g. Mercedes Benz CLK GTR/LM, Porsche 911 GT1-98, Nissan R390 GT1, McLaren F1 GTR Longtail)
Gr. 3 - GT1, GT2, GT3, GTC, GTE, GTLM, GTS, including homologated Vision GT cars
Gr. 4 - GT4, SCCA
Gr. A - WRC cars (usually below the Gr. B level)
Gr. B - Actual Group B cars and rallycross supercars
Super Touring - Super GT and JGTC - GT500 class, and DTM
Touring - TCR and GT300
Formula E - Formula E cars
And then the BoP can work by re-adjusting all the cars to the same average PP region.
Gr. 1 - LMP, Group C, Le Mans Hypercar, including homologated Vision GT cars
Gr. 2 - LMP2, DPi, 1990's GT1 (e.g. Mercedes Benz CLK GTR/LM, Porsche 911 GT1-98, Nissan R390 GT1, McLaren F1 GTR Longtail)
Gr. 3 - GT1, GT2, GT3, GTC, GTE, GTLM, GTS, including homologated Vision GT cars
Gr. 4 - GT4, SCCA
Gr. A - WRC cars (usually below the Gr. B level)
Gr. B - Actual Group B cars and rallycross supercars
Super Touring - Super GT and JGTC - GT500 class, and DTM
Touring - TCR and GT300
Formula E - Formula E cars
And then the BoP can work by re-adjusting all the cars to the same average PP region.
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- 1,605
- Greece
- Giorgos_Ferrari
Hallo everyone These are my ideas, But they are too many to write in a single comment, so check my thread if you'd like:
https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/threads/gt7-trailer-impressions-and-suggestions-update-2.396180/And let me know what do you think with a comment, either on this or my thread.
https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/threads/gt7-trailer-impressions-and-suggestions-update-2.396180/And let me know what do you think with a comment, either on this or my thread.
- 2,387
- somewhere near Trial Mountain
- oldbusanubis
With both PP and a car list that is likely going to feature 450+ cars, if would make sense to finally bring it back. I can only hope they do otherwise I have little use for online racing.Thank god they brought Performance Points back, It was basically impossible to create fair races in open lobbies without it, and BoP didn't work unless the cars were the same type of vehicle. (Hatchbacks, sedans, ect.)
...With Performance Points back, maybe we will get Shuffle races to return as well
- 735
- Maryland, USA
- 4,373
- Connecticut
- Ridley-X4
I think it'll be real interesting to see how PP interacts with both the classes and N-Series, but also with the likely return of more in-depth tuning and upgrades - especially if it's anything like GT6, where you could add stuff like flat floors, canards, and rear diffusers.
I also think PP regulations for Sport Mode events would be a fantastic way to only permit certain sub-sets of cars, aside from having an actual list of permitted cars. So for the N-Series, this could be great for if PD wanted to have an event where you could only use heavier vehicles, like the various trucks/SUVs/cross-overs that could appear. It also could prevent some cars that would otherwise be eligible from being overly-dominant, as I could see various tuners having a higher PP despite being in a certain N-Series class, like the Toyota S-FR Racing Concept.
Generally, I'm greatly looking forward to tuning various cars to not only comply with N-Series regulations, but also with PP limits.
I also think PP regulations for Sport Mode events would be a fantastic way to only permit certain sub-sets of cars, aside from having an actual list of permitted cars. So for the N-Series, this could be great for if PD wanted to have an event where you could only use heavier vehicles, like the various trucks/SUVs/cross-overs that could appear. It also could prevent some cars that would otherwise be eligible from being overly-dominant, as I could see various tuners having a higher PP despite being in a certain N-Series class, like the Toyota S-FR Racing Concept.
Generally, I'm greatly looking forward to tuning various cars to not only comply with N-Series regulations, but also with PP limits.
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- 15,086
- Melbourne
- ScottPuss20
- CheetahsMeow
Get rid of the N classes for road cars. They are useless.
- 4,373
- Connecticut
- Ridley-X4
I don't entirely agree, but I see where you're coming from. Much like the race-oriented groups, I think the solution is to have more events that only permit a certain group of vehicles, rather than allowing all vehicles within a certain group. I also believe that doing this will be easier either by restricting the vehicles themselves, using the returning PP system, or a combination thereof.
For example, the N-Series could stay, but perhaps we could get an online event modeled on a new version of the Sport Truck race, where you could use the Toyota Tundra TRD Pro and the Ford F-150 SVT Raptor. (Plus, hopefully those two will be joined by the Dodge Ram Rebel and Chevrolet Colorado ZR2.)
Ideally, there'll be a synergy between the campaign and online play, where many events will have regulations modeled on campaign events, including vehicle regulations, rather than simply permitting all cars from a given class or part of the N-Series.
I could see there being an N-Series event that does allow all cars from a given section of it, but also with a PP regulation to prevent certain cars that'd otherwise be part of the N-Series from entering, if only because they might have an unfair aerodynamic advantage for example, like we can see in GT Sport and the Toyota S-FR Racing Concept.
Either way, I am hoping that both GT7's campaign and online modes incentivize players to use almost every car in the game at least once.
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- 1,605
- Greece
- Giorgos_Ferrari
- 48,752
- Australia
Not many, regarding the 338 cars available.
There's only the Vulcan. Everything else are road cars, from street EVs to street hyper cars. An abnormal car, would be a race car built strictly for track racing(again, Vulcan), which is the Gr. class, of course. If it's got C or S tyres, in N class(again, excluding the Vulcan), it's Normal.
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