Gran Turismo Sport: General Discussion

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bdj57
Found interesting video on how to spit exhaust flames simultaneously on GTS for those who don't know about it yet. Might be useful if you want to get shots with exhaust flames. 👍 Or when you just bored that is :D

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If you miss the timing, you'll get disastrous photos like these...
(Don't worry, it may only happen with super-fast cars.)
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I stand by my statement that GTS' trophies and in-game achievements are badly-designed. Not solely because I'm personally having a hard time getting the total wins/poles trophies, but also because said trophies are not objective experiences. In other words, a very hard trophy that I'm very content with is the "Beat Zico" and "Zone Zeus" trophies from WipEout HD because its difficulty is uniform for the game's players. But with the total wins/poles trophy for GTS, the difficulty is subjective, and even more so with the fact that it can be obtained via exploits (i.e. intentionally lowering DR/SR for easier fields). I'd give these trophies (along with the one for total races) some credit for their usage of GP driver stat motifs, but that's more than negated by their bad design.

Another example being how a lot of in-game achievements are similarly subjective (e.g. consecutive clean races) or can lead to insincere activity, namely the achievements for total liveries created, and total likes given to photos/liveries. One may question if another player truly "liked" their creation, or if instead, that player is just working towards that in-game achievement. Similarly, the achievements that entail grinding are also not ones I really endorse, so this includes the trophies for total hours & days played, distance driven, credits/Mi points earned & used, and total drift points. For that last one, it should be an achievement for your score in a single session, with the actual requirements for each level being scaled appropriately if this in-game achievement system is to return.

Honestly, I really don't know if I see the actual "achievement" in these, including the trophies. In my personal game design philosophy, trophies/achievements/etc. should either be useful for giving players legitimate challenges and thus showing off to others if they are obtained, or good for metadata for the developers/publishers - an especially well-design trophy could even do both. An example of some GTS trophies that still do both would be the ones that show when you've obtain all-golds for stuff like the Driving School, the Missions, and Circuit Experiences. (At least in concept for that last one, as it won't simply give you the trophy if you only get gold on the vanilla courses in a version of the game that's been updated with additional layouts in that section, so either that member of PD staff was kept in the dark, or, if they weren't, then they failed to think ahead when designing that trophy.)

MagpieRacer
Spa's overrated imo. Much more excited about racing on Tsukuba.
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What's so exciting about racing there? There one place to pass, maybe two if you're lucky, and the fact that the circuit is so small/narrow means that the competing cars can only be so powerful before it becomes a mess. I honestly sort of loathe it alongside the smaller circuits like Suzuka East, because the races there never have enough laps to make a difference otherwise - it's not like you can wait for someone in front of you to make a mistake because they have less time to even make a mistake. Plus drafting and traction off-road is never set to "real" unless it's with cars not in the N-series, so you can't really rely on passing on a straight, either, unless the guy in front of you REALLY messed up. It's Sport Mode. PD should stop trying to make "beginners" rulesets with the three "Daily" races and have the following rules be typical, with only seldom exceptions: light damage, realistic draft and traction off-road, and fuel/tire consumption each set to 1x, with enough laps in a race to not take up a player's whole day, but still enough that almost anything can happen. Maybe even have a mandatory pit stop or two, for some events. And the qualifying should be more like the championship races, where it's one qualifying session per race, and you're immediately going to the race with the car you used for qualifying.

Honestly, more championships in general would be great. I also think it'd be good if the DR/SR ladders for the championships and daily races were segregated, with one ladder for the daily races, and then for each championship, there'd be a separate ladder, and if/when a championship has a successive iteration, that's another new ladder. I'm not sure if the current system of having the daily races' DR/SR ladder feed into the ladder for the championships ladder is a good idea at all.
 
MIE1992
What's so exciting about racing there? There one place to pass, maybe two if you're lucky, and the fact that the circuit is so small/narrow means that the competing cars can only be so powerful before it becomes a mess. I honestly sort of loathe it alongside the smaller circuits like Suzuka East, because the races there never have enough laps to make a difference otherwise - it's not like you can wait for someone in front of you to make a mistake because they have less time to even make a mistake. Plus drafting and traction off-road is never set to "real" unless it's with cars not in the N-series, so you can't really rely on passing on a straight, either, unless the guy in front of you REALLY messed up. It's Sport Mode. PD should stop trying to make "beginners" rulesets with the three "Daily" races and have the following rules be typical, with only seldom exceptions: light damage, realistic draft and traction off-road, and fuel/tire consumption each set to 1x, with enough laps in a race to not take up a player's whole day, but still enough that almost anything can happen. Maybe even have a mandatory pit stop or two, for some events. And the qualifying should be more like the championship races, where it's one qualifying session per race, and you're immediately going to the race with the car you used for qualifying.
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Yeah I'll grant you it's not great for higher power cars but I used to watch a lot of best motoring so racing mid to low power road cars there is a lot of fun. Also a great track just to hotlap.

However Spa isn't all green grass and rainbows, from my iracing days that wasn't exactly a fun track to race on with aero sensitive cars as you just get stuck behind people with 1 or 2 real opportunities to pass. And the final chicane is so tight it can get messy real fast unless you're alongside going in. Plus racing lower power cars there (particularly in Forza) was a chore.

Just my personal opinion from my experience.
 
My hypothesis why the Mazda Roadster TC was added to the N-series is because the "staple" groups are relatively uniform in power & weight, even before BoP. Whereas while the TCs/RMs from prior games are indeed enhanced versions of the respective road cars, their upgrades don't lead to all TCs/RMs being relatively similar in power & weight.

According to this promotional video, the classes are further defined as per the following descriptions:

Gr.4 - "Relatively subtle aero parts and weight reductions."

Gr.3 - 1350kg, 550-600HP

Gr.1 - 900kg, ~1000HP

Gr.B - 4WD, 500HP or more.

However, this video is from the launch window, before the introduction of Gr.2. We also should consider that the vision of a game and its scope could change over time. In my personal glance at the data, here are the current ranges of each class in terms of power & weight. Keep in mind that these metrics are before BoP applications:

Gr.4 - 2105-3638kg, 296-436HP, comparatively light modifications.

Gr.3 - 2568-2976kg, 495-678HP, FR/MR only

Gr.1 - 830-1250kg, 501-939HP, various Sports Prototypes.

Gr.B - 1000-1380kg, 500-589HP, 4WD only

Gr.2 (not available at time of video's release) - 1020-1150kg, 487-614HP, FR/MR only, extraordinary aero kits.

There are some exceptions where cars will be outside these ranges, but not by much. For example, the Ford GT LM Spec II Test Car is only about 1165kg, and the Mercedes-Benz AMG-GT3 is a little above the 600HP mark that's mentioned in the promo video, at 613HP. Perhaps these metrics mentioned in the video are the intended stats for after BoP is applied. Which makes me wonder: would it end up being more fair if every car in a class had an almost uniform power and weight after BoP is applied?

That said, with all this in mind, I think we can use these stats to get an idea of what cars would go into these "staple" groups, both from prior GT games as well as real life. Going by GT6's car list, here are my conclusive picks for which cars would be in which class if they came to GTS:

Gr.4: Alfa Romeo 155TI, BMW 320i Touring Car, Jaguar XJ220 LM Race Car, Lexus IS-F CCS-R, Lexus IS-F Touring Car, Mazda RX-7 Touring Car, Mercedes-Benz 190E Evo II Race Car, Mitsubishi Lancer Evo IX Touring Car, Nissan Calsonic Skyline GT-R R32, Nissan Falken GT-R R34, Nissan GT-R R35 Touring Car, Nissan Skyline GT-R R32, R33, and R34 Touring Cars, Nissan Silvia S15 Touring Car, Pagani Zonda LM Race Car, Subaru Impreza Touring Car, Toyota Altezza Touring Car

Gr.3: Acura NSX LM Race Car, Audi R8 LMS - Team Oreca, Audi R8 LMS Ultra, R8 (LMP which was the road car's namesake), Blitz Dunlop ER34 Skyline, BMW M3 GTR Race Car, Chevrolet Camaro Mk.IV Race Car, Chevrolet Corvette C5-R, Chevrolet Corvette (C6) Z06 Race Car (also the ZR1 version), Ford Falcon XR8, Lister Storm Race Car, Mazda RX-7 LM Race Car, Mitsubishi FTO Super Touring Car, Lamborghini Nomad Diablo GT-1, Mercedes-Benz CLK Touring Car, Subaru Impreza Super Touring Car

Gr.1: Pretty much all cars from Group C, LMP900, LMGTP (such as the TS020), and LMP1. Not sure about that Zytek LMP2 car, though, nor the Toyota 7. The Chaparral cars, of course, would likely be put into Gr.X, though the 2D could find a home in a historic sports prototype class if it were made, perhaps alongside the Ferrari 330 P4, Jaguar XJ13, and Ford Mark IV.

Gr.B: Audi Quattro S1 Rally Car, maybe the other Group B cars, but I'm not sure.

Gr.2: [Pretty much every prior GT500 car from both JGTC and Super GT], Lexus IS-F Racing Concept, [many, if not all the GT1-spec cars from after the BPR era, as well as the various DTMasters cars which are not to be confused with the other DTM, being DTMeisterschaft],

Keep in mind that in spite of having some classes feature both modern and older race cars, I think this potential issue would be greatly mitigated if there were more events where only some cars within a class could be used, like the recent Gr.4 events that only permit the FF cars within that class, or the N300 races which featured the "Gentleman's Agreement" JDM cars.

Other interesting notes:

-While the GT300 cars like the Autobacs Arta Garaiya or Weds Sport IS350 seem like they'd be a good fit for Gr.3, they have notably less power than the rest of the Gr.3 cars, including the made-for-game Lancer Evo X Gr.3 and WRX STI Gr.3, which both resemble GT300 cars.

-Similarly, while a lot of the real-world Group B cars seem like a shoe-in for Gr.B, their power and weight metrics seem quite lower than the rest of the cars currently in that class.

-As an aside, I still don't see why the BMW M3 (E92) GT isn't called the M3 GT2, unless that was its title within BMW.

-Some of the hillclimb cars may have too much power to be in Gr.B, like the Suzuki Escudo.
 
MIE1992
My hypothesis why the Mazda Roadster TC was added to the N-series is because the "staple" groups are relatively uniform in power & weight, even before BoP. Whereas while the TCs/RMs from prior games are indeed enhanced versions of the respective road cars, their upgrades don't lead to all TCs/RMs being relatively similar in power & weight.

According to this promotional video, the classes are further defined as per the following descriptions:

Gr.4 - "Relatively subtle aero parts and weight reductions."

Gr.3 - 1350kg, 550-600HP

Gr.1 - 900kg, ~1000HP

Gr.B - 4WD, 500HP or more.

However, this video is from the launch window, before the introduction of Gr.2. We also should consider that the vision of a game and its scope could change over time. In my personal glance at the data, here are the current ranges of each class in terms of power & weight. Keep in mind that these metrics are before BoP applications:

Gr.4 - 2105-3638kg, 296-436HP, comparatively light modifications.

Gr.3 - 2568-2976kg, 495-678HP, FR/MR only

Gr.1 - 830-1250kg, 501-939HP, various Sports Prototypes.

Gr.B - 1000-1380kg, 500-589HP, 4WD only

Gr.2 (not available at time of video's release) - 1020-1150kg, 487-614HP, FR/MR only, extraordinary aero kits.

There are some exceptions where cars will be outside these ranges, but not by much. For example, the Ford GT LM Spec II Test Car is only about 1165kg, and the Mercedes-Benz AMG-GT3 is a little above the 600HP mark that's mentioned in the promo video, at 613HP. Perhaps these metrics mentioned in the video are the intended stats for after BoP is applied. Which makes me wonder: would it end up being more fair if every car in a class had an almost uniform power and weight after BoP is applied?

That said, with all this in mind, I think we can use these stats to get an idea of what cars would go into these "staple" groups, both from prior GT games as well as real life. Going by GT6's car list, here are my conclusive picks for which cars would be in which class if they came to GTS:

Gr.4: Alfa Romeo 155TI, BMW 320i Touring Car, Jaguar XJ220 LM Race Car, Lexus IS-F CCS-R, Lexus IS-F Touring Car, Mazda RX-7 Touring Car, Mercedes-Benz 190E Evo II Race Car, Mitsubishi Lancer Evo IX Touring Car, Nissan Calsonic Skyline GT-R R32, Nissan Falken GT-R R34, Nissan GT-R R35 Touring Car, Nissan Skyline GT-R R32, R33, and R34 Touring Cars, Nissan Silvia S15 Touring Car, Pagani Zonda LM Race Car, Subaru Impreza Touring Car, Toyota Altezza Touring Car

Gr.3: Acura NSX LM Race Car, Audi R8 LMS - Team Oreca, Audi R8 LMS Ultra, R8 (LMP which was the road car's namesake), Blitz Dunlop ER34 Skyline, BMW M3 GTR Race Car, Chevrolet Camaro Mk.IV Race Car, Chevrolet Corvette C5-R, Chevrolet Corvette (C6) Z06 Race Car (also the ZR1 version), Ford Falcon XR8, Lister Storm Race Car, Mazda RX-7 LM Race Car, Mitsubishi FTO Super Touring Car, Lamborghini Nomad Diablo GT-1, Mercedes-Benz CLK Touring Car, Subaru Impreza Super Touring Car

Gr.1: Pretty much all cars from Group C, LMP900, LMGTP (such as the TS020), and LMP1. Not sure about that Zytek LMP2 car, though, nor the Toyota 7. The Chaparral cars, of course, would likely be put into Gr.X, though the 2D could find a home in a historic sports prototype class if it were made, perhaps alongside the Ferrari 330 P4, Jaguar XJ13, and Ford Mark IV.

Gr.B: Audi Quattro S1 Rally Car, maybe the other Group B cars, but I'm not sure.

Gr.2: [Pretty much every prior GT500 car from both JGTC and Super GT], Lexus IS-F Racing Concept, [many, if not all the GT1-spec cars from after the BPR era, as well as the various DTMasters cars which are not to be confused with the other DTM, being DTMeisterschaft],

Keep in mind that in spite of having some classes feature both modern and older race cars, I think this potential issue would be greatly mitigated if there were more events where only some cars within a class could be used, like the recent Gr.4 events that only permit the FF cars within that class, or the N300 races which featured the "Gentleman's Agreement" JDM cars.

Other interesting notes:

-While the GT300 cars like the Autobacs Arta Garaiya or Weds Sport IS350 seem like they'd be a good fit for Gr.3, they have notably less power than the rest of the Gr.3 cars, including the made-for-game Lancer Evo X Gr.3 and WRX STI Gr.3, which both resemble GT300 cars.

-Similarly, while a lot of the real-world Group B cars seem like a shoe-in for Gr.B, their power and weight metrics seem quite lower than the rest of the cars currently in that class.

-As an aside, I still don't see why the BMW M3 (E92) GT isn't called the M3 GT2, unless that was its title within BMW.

-Some of the hillclimb cars may have too much power to be in Gr.B, like the Suzuki Escudo.
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MC GT300 cars are on par with GT300 cars though. PD seem to be updating certain car models, than what we might have expected. '65 Mini with roll cage, for example.

Placing the GT2 M3 and One Make Megane in their newly respective classes, are a wonder why PD even added those in this game. Regardless of bumping up car count.

The MX-5 is a miss in logic.
 
05XR8
MC GT300 cars are on par with GT300 cars though. PD seem to be updating certain car models, than what we might have expected. '65 Mini with roll cage, for example.

Placing the GT2 M3 and One Make Megane in their newly respective classes, are a wonder why PD even added those in this game. Regardless of bumping up car count.

The MX-5 is a miss in logic.
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I’m sorry but I’m having a real hard time understanding your post. Aren’t there still FIA GT4-eligible one-make cars in real life? Plus Gr.3 already included GTE/GT2 from day zero with the 911 RSR. How is the MX-5 an oddity if its power & weight is far beyond the typical metrics for Gr.4?

Also, what do you think of my predictions otherwise?
 
MIE1992
I’m sorry but I’m having a real hard time understanding your post. Aren’t there still FIA GT4-eligible one-make cars in real life? Plus Gr.3 already included GTE/GT2 from day zero with the 911 RSR. How is the MX-5 an oddity if its power & weight is far beyond the typical metrics for Gr.4?

Also, what do you think of my predictions otherwise?
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Ww know PD made each Group based in the real world equivalents. The ill-logic started when Group C, the GT2 car, Megane, etc were placed in their now respective categories.

Cars like the 320i TC, would be closer in performance to the MX-5 TC as opposed to the 86, 4C and Scirocco.
The IS200 GT-1 would fit Gr.4. The Alfa 155 for sure fits Gr.4.
Look at the S2000 LM and Integra TC(not the RM version). The performance of those two fall in Gr.4 range.

The Blitz Drift car would be Gr.X.

Gr.3 is spot on. Not too many variances how they'd Group such cars.

Gr.1 seems open to anything with a low slung profile.
 
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Group 1 frustrates me greatly... almost to a unreasonable degree since I see so much wasted opportunity.

GR.1 has VGT, LMP-H, 2000 era 'pre-hybrid' LMPs. 1990's 5 spd manual Group C cars and I'm betting they put the new Super Sport Hypercar WEC series there too.

To me anyway it becomes a "McLaren VGT and Audi R18" two way gangbang because everyone elses gets ganked by these two.

Further to this, PD dont exploit their own assets to any degree.

Where is the synthetic "Legends of Group C" leagues series? Where is the Mazda Miata race car spec series?
 
TonyJZX
Group 1 frustrates me greatly... almost to a unreasonable degree since I see so much wasted opportunity.

GR.1 has VGT, LMP-H, 2000 era 'pre-hybrid' LMPs. 1990's 5 spd manual Group C cars and I'm betting they put the new Super Sport Hypercar WEC series there too.

To me anyway it becomes a "McLaren VGT and Audi R18" two way gangbang because everyone elses gets ganked by these two.

Further to this, PD dont exploit their own assets to any degree.

Where is the synthetic "Legends of Group C" leagues series? Where is the Mazda Miata race car spec series?
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The way it looks, it's like PD THINK they've painted themselves into a corner when that actually haven't. Just make sub goups. Easy fix. However, the Manufacturers Cup is almost ruining the original vision of the cars they built for that Group. It's dribbled onto everything else.
 
My class placementments for possible returning race cars from PS3 era games:

Gr.1:
Minolta Toyota 88C-V '89
Peugeot 905 Evo 1 bis '92
Audi R8 '01
Audi R10 TDI '06
BMW V12 LMR '99
Toyota GT-ONE '99
Bentley Speed 8 '03
DeltaWing '13

Gr.2:
XANAVI NISMO Z '06
RAYBRIG HSV-010 '12
YellowHat YMS Supra '05
IS F Racing Concept '08

Gr.3:
Chevrolet Corvette (C6) ZR1 LMRC '09 (nerf engine power to Z06 LM levels, I mean the GT by Citroen LM had slight tuning from start for Gr.3)
Chevrolet Corvette C5-R '00
Audi R8 LMS Ultra Team Phoenix '12
Viper GTS-R Team Oreca '00
Jaguar XJ220 LM Race Car
BMW M3 GTR '01 (hoo boy, imagine the livery flood)
Lamborghini Diablo GT2 '98

Gr.4:
Lexus IS F CCS-R '11
Nissan Skyline GT-R R34 Touring Car
Mazda RX-7 (FD) Touring Car
Chevrolet Corvette (C6) Z06 Tuned Car (from GT5P)

Disputed:
McLaren F1 GTR Race Car '97 (Longtail)
Nissan R390 GT1 '98
Mercedes-Benz CLK-LM '98
Subaru BRZ R&D Sport '12 (maybe use a newer model, but '18 spec is still around 350HP)
Zytek Z11SN Greaves Motorsport '13 (discussed in another thread)
Nissan Skyline GT-R R33 Touring Car (must remove 4WD system to be eligible for Gr.3, but by that point just add the '95 GT-R LM instead)
Acura NSX LM Race Car (likely badged as a Honda NSX-R instead)
 

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