Gran Turismo Sophy: Sony AI x Polyphony Digital

[Kriptical]

I have a very different opinion. The GT7 audience screams of 30+ years.

The young people in my life are not interested in GT7

Had an electrician’s apprentice over to do some easy work. He just turned 21. Had no clue about gran turismo. Zilch. And i live in an area with great back roads where lots of people have an appreciation for driving. Including him. He ended up loving it but that was due to psvr 2 and with the help of fanatec.

If i didn’t have vr hanging from the rig he would have never thought about trying it. PS’s Forza..who cares.

 

[Fossilized]

It appears that, no matter how many times I keep repeating that not ALL offline players are kids (of all ages, I’m primarily referring to the behavior, not the age), so many here seem determined to be offended by including themselves in the whole. That’s YOUR choice, folks, not mine. The fact that you’re here on this forum makes you part of the ‘elite’ some use as a diss (if not, we would have millions posting here!).

Many point to the fact that they don’t like their limited time playing ‘ruined’ by the occasional bad behavior on online, but have happily played GT for over a decade against an AI that ruins the game by being laughably slow and predictable. Personally, I never started to enjoy GT until there was an online component…

Sadly, I feel that the worst thing to happen to the online community has been Sport Mode, and the rise of un-stewarded racing. Iirc, was it GT6 that introduced the ‘Quick Race’ concept of rooms that had artificial stewarding, rather than rooms hosted by actual players, with actual rules, and the ability to kick players who violated them? I remember GTPlanet’s own OLR becoming something of a standard, used in many room titles (‘GTP Clean’).

Quick Race had none of this. Very similarly to Sport Mode, you joined, waited until the room was full, then the race started, and it immediately turned into a kiddie puntfest. Nobody back then took it seriously, the clean online racers were in the well hosted rooms and Leagues. Even then, it was obvious an AI stewarding system was completely incapable of enforcing proper racing etiquette. Personally, I don’t think it has improved one iota. Without a human reviewer, any auto stewarding can be circumvented.

GT Sport started the rot, took Quick Race and turned it, despite it being the least popular form of online racing (you could wait forever for a Quick Race room to fill up, online ‘clean’ rooms filled up rapidly), into the main focus of the game.

The truth is, if you’ve never gone online because of how bad Sport Mode is, join a league. Maybe a Sophy-like AI could be trained to better steward online, but that might be beyond AI’s abilities for another few generations of consoles.

In the meantime, having to nerf your car to ridiculous levels to simply give the AI a chance against you strikes me as no better than going into Sport Mode and taking your chances against the rammers. Neither are in any way believable for a fan of real life motorsports.

That 95% of players (if that stat is believable) choose the lesser of two options doesn’t exactly make me think it’s racing fans, but rather ‘gamers’. But, as part of the ‘elite’ that bother posting about GT, please feel free to try and explain that 95% to me without including yourself in it. You’re here. You care. But you’re not in a League or involved in clean racing rooms…

 

[jonoholland29]

It appears that, no matter how many times I keep repeating that not ALL offline players are kids (of all ages, I’m primarily referring to the behavior, not the age), so many here seem determined to be offended by including themselves in the whole. That’s YOUR choice, folks, not mine. The fact that you’re here on this forum makes you part of the ‘elite’ some use as a diss (if not, we would have millions posting here!).

Many point to the fact that they don’t like their limited time playing ‘ruined’ by the occasional bad behavior on online, but have happily played GT for over a decade against an AI that ruins the game by being laughably slow and predictable. Personally, I never started to enjoy GT until there was an online component…

Sadly, I feel that the worst thing to happen to the online community has been Sport Mode, and the rise of un-stewarded racing. Iirc, was it GT6 that introduced the ‘Quick Race’ concept of rooms that had artificial stewarding, rather than rooms hosted by actual players, with actual rules, and the ability to kick players who violated them? I remember GTPlanet’s own OLR becoming something of a standard, used in many room titles (‘GTP Clean’).

Quick Race had none of this. Very similarly to Sport Mode, you joined, waited until the room was full, then the race started, and it immediately turned into a kiddie puntfest. Nobody back then took it seriously, the clean online racers were in the well hosted rooms and Leagues. Even then, it was obvious an AI stewarding system was completely incapable of enforcing proper racing etiquette. Personally, I don’t think it has improved one iota. Without a human reviewer, any auto stewarding can be circumvented.

GT Sport started the rot, took Quick Race and turned it, despite it being the least popular form of online racing (you could wait forever for a Quick Race room to fill up, online ‘clean’ rooms filled up rapidly), into the main focus of the game.

The truth is, if you’ve never gone online because of how bad Sport Mode is, join a league. Maybe a Sophy-like AI could be trained to better steward online, but that might be beyond AI’s abilities for another few generations of consoles.

In the meantime, having to nerf your car to ridiculous levels to simply give the AI a chance against you strikes me as no better than going into Sport Mode and taking your chances against the rammers. Neither are in any way believable for a fan of real life motorsports.

That 95% of players (if that stat is believable) choose the lesser of two options doesn’t exactly make me think it’s racing fans, but rather ‘gamers’. But, as part of the ‘elite’ that bother posting about GT, please feel free to try and explain that 95% to me without including yourself in it. You’re here. You care. But you’re not in a League or involved in clean racing rooms…

But "quick race" is the only thing I want to do. I've tried leagues and I have to do this and that, paint my car this, put this loge here - its a faff! I cannot be at X time on Y day for this and that either.

I have an hour to spare, decide I want to have a bit of racing fun, so I boot up the PS5 and jump into GT7.

Less than 10 out of the nearly 80 races I have done online in GT7 have been better than the in-game AI. The rest have been carnage. Probably a different story if you're B+ driver... but watching youtube/twitch that doesn't seem to be the case.

To you it's more fun to take your chances online. To me, I'd much rather take a slower car versus the AI or simply drive without any AI. Lately, I have been having fun with Sophy but alas the rubber banding is still present. The chilli races are great though, which just frustrates me more because they show PD can get it half right.

 

[Famine]

I’m primarily referring to the behavior, not the age ... so many here seem determined to be offended by including themselves

It is not the height of maturity to claim that those repudiating your position by pointing out that they are not children and do not enjoy online racing are "offended".

Many point to the fact that they don’t like their limited time playing ‘ruined’ by the occasional bad behavior on online, but have happily played GT for over a decade against an AI that ruins the game by being laughably slow and predictable.

The predictability of the dimness being the point I made. Bad drivers online are not predictable in how and when they will strike.

The truth is, if you’ve never gone online because of how bad Sport Mode is, join a league.

I've not only done that, I've run league events - and LANs (which are much more enjoyable). As my existence is pretty dynamic in terms of scheduling, I don't really want to commit a chunk of time to a specific calendar knowing that I might not be able to meet it.

I've also found several "league" events include several drivers who are real-life friends and the penalty for being crap (or a dick) is pretty much non-existent. There's one I occasionally dabble in for industry professionals (one of a few industries!) and one name keeps on coming up, usually after the yelled phrase "OH FOR ****'S SAKES...", but nothing ever happens about it because we're all colleagues and the real-world repercussions aren't worth it.

In the meantime, having to nerf your car to ridiculous levels to simply give the AI a chance against you strikes me as no better than going into Sport Mode and taking your chances against the rammers.

Why are they the only two options?

Most races in GT7 are okay if you don't overwhelm the PP limit and have difficulty turned up. It's no coincidence that people find the PP-limited events the hardest, to the point of making threads on here about how hard they are. There are races - as we've seen this week in the Weekly Challenges - where there's plenty of difficulty without "having to nerf your car".

Sure, not against three quarters of the field (but then you're artificially starting behind them anyway), but the top one or few cars can be tricky. The pass conditions are, after all, top three rather than winning - although the Event Directory clearance requires victory.

You... have played the game, right?

That 95% of players (if that stat is believable) choose the lesser of two options doesn’t exactly make me think it’s racing fans, but rather ‘gamers’. But, as part of the ‘elite’ that bother posting about GT, please feel free to try and explain that 95% to me without including yourself in it.

Why are people needing to explain a number nobody besides you posted, and why is it not allowed to include oneself in there if it's appropriate?

I play GT and have done since GT1. I prefer offline to online (by far, although I prefer LAN to either), and although I have raced online - only 100 races in two years of GT7 - I prefer not to. What reason could there possibly be to disallow me to include myself in a discussion of players who prefer offline to online and whether or not those who like the former are little kiddies who like to overpower their cars and ram the AI off (which I'm not) other than it simply not being convenient for your position?

 

[ShiftingGears]

I have a nasty feeling the vast majority of those that never played Sport Mode are little kids that wouldn’t know what proper opponents behave like anyway. I mean, if they never compete against humans, how would they know what is and isn’t realistic?

I'm afraid I think if you never play Sport Mode, you’re mostly into overpowering your car, painting on a garish livery, and ramming the AI out the way!

But yes, you’re right, got to get Sophy realistic before it can be used to determine fault, but quite honestly, I don’t see the vast majority of kids who never use Sport Mode as considering Sophy of being an improvement to their way of playing. I feel something along the lines of Grid’s ‘Nemesis’ behavior is what they want, an opponent that retaliates when you punt them off..! Realistic defensive behavior is just going to make them Ram even more!

Here's a hypothetical

Name a car you want to race and a track you want to race at

Now go online and try and find or create a room and have a race with more than 10 people in that car.

For most people they can't do it, you are entirely dependent on others to even want to play with you, which is where online completely falls apart - it is totally reliant on people having fun the same way you do, WHEN you do.

This is totally antithetical to the appeal of GT, which is still a pick-up-and-play game compared to more hard-core sims like ACC.

P.S. bring back shuffle racing

 

[Fossilized]

With sales figures in the millions, how does anyone that posts regularly here think that they are typical given how few of those millions (the English speaking markets in the UK, Australia/NZ and the US/Canada are a very significant percentage of those millions) participate..?

What leads anyone here to think that how they play the game is in any way typical? Quite honestly, given the determination to avoid anyone else at all, how do you extrapolate how you drive and race with no comparison at all?

Everybody seems to think that how THEY race is what is typical with, as far as I can tell, only this echo chamber as their ‘proof’.

But I’ll tell who DOES know… PD. Do you think that seven generations of the game before an AI system that can challenge a reasonably decent racer comes along, and at the first peep out of the base that it’s ’too hard’ they nerf it, this doesn’t indicate exactly what their priorities are?

How easy would it have been for PD to offer the same old AI opponents, but simply turned up by option to a far faster level? It’s the approach taken by other, more sim-focused games, most of which offer a level that can challenge even league level players. The behavior is no different, only the pace is turned up.

But seven generations of this game have stubbornly refused to do this apparently simple thing (if not simple, how come other games manage it?). I believe that PD knows their base far better than we apparently do. They aren’t us. They aren’t racers who want a fast clean race. They aren’t racers who want an AI that CAN drive away from us if we mess up.

They want it slow. They want it rubberbanded. They want it easy to attack, dive bomb and yes, punt off. If PD weren’t certain of exactly what the millions that DON’T post, don’t go online or involve themselves in a community in any way want and like, why would they have left the AI so slow for so long? And immediately nerf their new system at the first peep of dissatisfaction with how fast it is?

As to leagues, if you think that nothing fits your racing tastes, start your own. Or just get a community that shares your values, and self-regulate yourselves. This is how it worked in GT5/6. I never had a problem finding a clean casual racing room, or is starting one, quickly had it fill up with those that understood that ‘GTP Clean’ meant self stewarding, returning position in the event of a dirty pass, and a host that would kick drivers accused of violating the few basic rules.

Of course, none of you know this, because you never played online back then, right? With no memory of how good things USED to be before everybody got bamboozled by the unfulfilled promise of Sport Mode, you have missed out on the best racing you are ever going to get. Skilled drivers in similar cars, driving cleanly, without having to nerf your car or having to slog through the pack to try and chase down the rabbits. That’s not racing. That’s merely tolerating a game design feature built around kids. And making the best of it.

I spent countless hundreds (thousands!) of hours playing GT5/6 almost exclusively online with a far better behaved community than you can find in the S splits in Sport Mode. Without having to join a league and sit around waiting for the scheduled races. It can be done. It WAS done. All it took was the recognition that a penalty system figured out by a console rather than humans cannot work. Does not work. I have my intuition it will NEVER work.

Start from that assumption, the only answer is to steward yourselves. You don’t need Sport Mode, and you don’t need to find convoluted ways to get around an AI specifically designed for kids. If indeed you ARE the majority, and the millions that refuse to play online all share your values, why haven’t you tried this? It’s so simple it worked for GT5 before there was ANY auto-penalty system, and it worked for GT6 where Quick Race was all but ignored by the online community because of the flawed penalty detection and no way to exclude dirty drivers.

GT7 has all the tools you need. Online is the only place you are going to find a realistic challenge. Sure, you can invent an unrealistic challenge offline. But I have a feeling, if you are in the tiny percentage that bothers to post online, you ought to be in the tiny percentage that races online. Just give Sport Mode a miss…

 

[hawkeyez]

GT7 has all the tools you need. Online is the only place you are going to find a realistic challenge. Sure, you can invent an unrealistic challenge offline. But I have a feeling, if you are in the tiny percentage that bothers to post online, you ought to be in the tiny percentage that races online. Just give Sport Mode a miss…

Not entirely true. You can setup a lobby with a PP limit and if people bring some car they’ve worked on the tune for hours and hours and you just bring some stock vehicle at the same, you’re probably going to lose. I’ve seen this right from day one, but if you request or force a stock tune, it’s usually a much closer race and in my case, I’ve ran these in the weekday evenings and sometimes just walk away from them. Yet the previous race they were allowed to bring anything as long as it was under ____pp on _____tires.

I think the AI in this game is not good at all and I despise the chase the rabbit races. But online also has issues. I wish I could select cars from my garage for everyone else to choose from. I’ve spent time tuning several to run very close lap times. But that goes to waste when you set a pp limit and tire limit and randoms are able to just bring whatever they want.

We all know some cars can be tuned to be ridiculously fast and some tunes are simply miles ahead of others tunes in the same car.

Stock tune, same tires, same car… always leads to better races as in closer racing. Usually. Sometimes somebody is just good with a certain car but the rest of the pack is on par with one another.

 

[Nebuc72]

What leads anyone here to think that how they play the game is in any way typical? Quite honestly, given the determination to avoid anyone else at all, how do you extrapolate how you drive and race with no comparison at all?

Everybody seems to think that how THEY race is what is typical with, as far as I can tell, only this echo chamber as their ‘proof’.

if you are in the tiny percentage that bothers to post online, you ought to be in the tiny percentage that races online. Just give Sport Mode a miss…

These are crazy words coming from a guy who has posted multiple essays trying to convince everyone the way they enjoy the game is wrong. Christ on a cracker.

 

[Famine]

With sales figures in the millions, how does anyone that posts regularly here think that they are typical given how few of those millions (the English speaking markets in the UK, Australia/NZ and the US/Canada are a very significant percentage of those millions) participate..?

What leads anyone here to think that how they play the game is in any way typical? Quite honestly, given the determination to avoid anyone else at all, how do you extrapolate how you drive and race with no comparison at all?

How are you determining that the posters are claiming to be typical or representative at all?

I was responding to your earlier sweeping statement that you didn't believe that "there are adults that have played GT through many iterations and prefer it to online" by pointing that I am and do, and why. I've not claimed to be typical in any way, just that I exist...

As to leagues, if you think that nothing fits your racing tastes, start your own. Or just get a community that shares your values, and self-regulate yourselves. This is how it worked in GT5/6. I never had a problem finding a clean casual racing room, or is starting one, quickly had it fill up with those that understood that ‘GTP Clean’ meant self stewarding, returning position in the event of a dirty pass, and a host that would kick drivers accused of violating the few basic rules.

Of course, none of you know this, because you never played online back then, right? With no memory of how good things USED to be before everybody got bamboozled by the unfulfilled promise of Sport Mode, you have missed out on the best racing you are ever going to get.

I've not only done that, I've run league events - and LANs (which are much more enjoyable).

I play GT and have done since GT1. I prefer offline to online (by far, although I prefer LAN to either), and although I have raced online - only 100 races in two years of GT7 - I prefer not to.

I've certainly played enough COD and WOT to know that's not far off the mark, and my GT5P, GT5, GT6, GTS and GT7 experiences tally with that.

 

[RACECAR]

These are crazy words coming from a guy who has posted multiple essays trying to convince everyone the way they enjoy the game is wrong. Christ on a cracker.

All while:

• Making Broad sweeping generalizations
• Responding to those that clearly don't fall underneath said generalizations in abit of a mocking tone
• Doubling down on said generalizations based on some foggy logic
• Accusing people of making claims they didn't make

What on earth is even the point to all of this?

 

[Nebuc72]

All while:

• Making Broad sweeping generalizations
• Responding to those that clearly don't fall underneath said generalizations in abit of a mocking tone
• Doubling down on said generalizations based on some foggy logic
• Accusing people of making claims they didn't make

What on earth is even the point to all of this?

Senile.

 

[jonoholland29]

All I did was share my experience of online, plus the experience of some other GT7 players from YouTube or Twitch…

 

[ruestchiva]

Anyone else believes Sophy is just too weak now? I mean before it was unbeatable (which I loved about it) but now it's almost as slow as regular AI. Albeit, cleaner and "more aware" of their surroundings.

 

[Monkey Man]

I agree mate.

I think they dialled it back too-much.

 

[05XR8]

That’s the problem with PD translating-interpreting complaints and criticisms.

 

[Fossilized]

I get it now. Only YOUR broad sweeping generalizations are valid. Got it. 🙄

It was generally the fixed tune rooms that stayed clean back in the GT5/6 years. Open tune fixed PP tended to bring out those who tuned for straight line speed and no handling in the corners, leading to it turning into a puntfest.

I remember the outcry from the online community whet it was learned that GT6 had dropped the very popular Shuffle Mode. This seems to be EXACTLY what so many now say they would want in an online experience. Other than some that say they want EXACTLY what they want and nothing else will do! A simple quick race system using a rough PP area, fixed tunes, and at the end of each race the winners were ‘shuffled’ into lower PP cars and the losers (and new players in the room) got better cars. It helped that there were dozens of cars in any particular PP selection, so it didn’t turn into a One Make (but that in fixed tune was also a popular race category online).

Endless hours playing that, struggling with slightly inferior cars against slower drivers in better cars…

Did anyone abandon online after GT5/6, or are the offline only players here those who NEVER tried this back in the GT5/6 years? I know that at least SOME of you were playing the game back then…

But be assured, once upon a time, back before everyone got lazy and allowed a completely flawed auto-stewarding system to ruin online rather than put in a bit more effort to steward themselves (or risk being kicked), you could play GT online for HOURS against clean racers.

If you were around then and missed it, I feel sorry for you. But not as sorry as I do for more recent to the game players that assume there’s nothing better other than raising your hopes by yet another flawed AI system.

 

[jonoholland29]

I get it now. Only YOUR broad sweeping generalizations are valid. Got it. 🙄

I've not seen anyone make broad sweeping statements except yourself.

The only thing I can offer is my own experience - that racing online in GT7 is not fun. Racing against the AI is more fun to me, despite its obvious and known lacking competitiveness

 

[FPV MIC]

Sadly, I feel that the worst thing to happen to the online community has been Sport Mode, and the rise of un-stewarded racing. Iirc, was it GT6 that introduced the ‘Quick Race’ concept of rooms that had artificial stewarding, rather than rooms hosted by actual players, with actual rules, and the ability to kick players who violated them? I remember GTPlanet’s own OLR becoming something of a standard, used in many room titles (‘GTP Clean’).

Quick Race had none of this. Very similarly to Sport Mode, you joined, waited until the room was full, then the race started, and it immediately turned into a kiddie puntfest. Nobody back then took it seriously, the clean online racers were in the well hosted rooms and Leagues. Even then, it was obvious an AI stewarding system was completely incapable of enforcing proper racing etiquette. Personally, I don’t think it has improved one iota. Without a human reviewer, any auto stewarding can be circumvented.

You're limited knowledge is showing about Quick Match.

Firstly you didn't have to wait until the room was full, only until the previous race finished, plus a bit of extra time so others could join.

Secondly, yes there was the odd griefer here and there, but there was also a great community of very fast, very respectful drivers that took racing very seriously. Even drivers from TRL sometimes frequented those races (one in particular was a regular) and the QM forum on this site.

Granted I also used to race in many very well organized lobbies too but offline has always been there for when people like me can't be bothered... like now. At 63 years of age I just haven't got the time for online racing anymore.

 

[ImaRobot]

I get it now. Only YOUR broad sweeping generalizations are valid. Got it. 🙄

Ironic thing to say after being the only one doing this over the span of this week, and continuing to do so.

 

[Fossilized]

I admit, it has been a very long time since GT6, but I definitely remembering the biggest frustration with Quick Mode was once a griefer got in, there was no getting rid of it. Exactly like Sport Mode.

And sorry, but I fail to see how playing online took up any more time than offline, other than it’s sheer addictiveness..! Yes, if you wanted to participate in a scheduled organized League you obviously had to wait, but casual racing clean rooms were up and running most times of the day.

Perhaps I'm projecting, perhaps some here actually DID find the AI a challenge, but I don’t really feel that I was particularly skilled, and the hoops I had to go through to get any challenge at all from the AI made the game utterly unrealistic. Beautiful graphics (for the time) but you were racing your grannie!

I'm PS4Pro, so can’t really comment about Sophy, but so far the fact that PD nerfed it says a lot to me about what they feel about their base.

 

[Meythia]

but so far the fact that PD nerfed it says a lot to me about what they feel about their base.

With the risk of looking like an insult, but this is not actually just feel considering there are regularly posts about specific events with basic AI that are questioned whether they are possible to win at all.

It all comes down to practice of course, and this is no different for online or offline. Just that online also requires the player to either stay on a schedule, which some dont, or in open lobbies suffer from bad connections, bad player behaviour, or whatever other bad (and there are lots of them) you want to complain about.

I rather just hit pause and scratch my cats belly when I want instead of facing the fury of the furries for not answering its needs immediatly as the servant I choose to be.

 

[Magog]

Did they change the way cars are paired against you in a recent update? I took a modified MR2 to Deep Forest and they had me racing against FXX Ks and Vulcans

 

[Mudda Chod]

I prefer offline to online (by far, although I prefer LAN to either)

Sorry for being dim, and possibly off topic, but can you tell me how to LAN GT7? i.e if we have several consoles in the same room, can we lobby race over the LAN?

 

[Famine]

Sorry for being dim, and possibly off topic, but can you tell me how to LAN GT7? i.e if we have several consoles in the same room, can we lobby race over the LAN?

With GT7 I've never done it, but in GT5-through-Sport you could just do exactly that: several consoles attached to the same network switch with an outside connection to create and maintain the lobby (and, with always-online Sport/7, make the game work ). So long as nobody outside the "LAN" joins the lobby, you have a LAN; we used private rooms with specific accounts with no friends except the others in the "LAN".

No idea if it works in 7. Can't imagine that it won't.

 

[Mudda Chod]

With GT7 I've never done it, but in GT5-through-Sport you could just do exactly that: several consoles attached to the same network switch with an outside connection to create and maintain the lobby (and, with always-online Sport/7, make the game work ). So long as nobody outside the "LAN" joins the lobby, you have a LAN; we used private rooms with specific accounts with no friends except the others in the "LAN".

No idea if it works in 7. Can't imagine that it won't.

Omg, that sounds awesome... Must try!!

 

[Fossilized]

With the risk of looking like an insult, but this is not actually just feel considering there are regularly posts about specific events with basic AI that are questioned whether they are possible to win at all.

It all comes down to practice of course, and this is no different for online or offline. Just that online also requires the player to either stay on a schedule, which some dont, or in open lobbies suffer from bad connections, bad player behaviour, or whatever other bad (and there are lots of them) you want to complain about.

I rather just hit pause and scratch my cats belly when I want instead of facing the fury of the furries for not answering its needs immediatly as the servant I choose to be.

I'm a LONG way from being considered alien, but apart from the occasional stiff challenge, I found racing the AI a complete realism breaking experience. In real life, Verstappen doesn’t start last and has to blast by a bunch of F1 Academy drivers before he gets to race the few F1 drivers in the field!

PD spend millions on giving us the best graphics on console, but can’t offer a slider that turns the AI to 11 (or 12, or 13!)? I’m sorry, but I just don’t buy it.