Forza vs. Gran Turismo: A War of Words

October 18th, 2009 by Jordan

kazunori-yamauchi-lightsFew franchises in the gaming world can trigger such heated debate as Forza and Gran Turismo. The reason for the rivalry is obvious, with each high-profile game competing for hearts and minds on the front lines of the “console wars”. Up until this year, however, Microsoft’s Turn 10 Studios and Kazunori Yamauchi’s Polyphony Digital worked quietly on their respective titles and delivered driving games of excellent quality for each console. As the online rhetoric of fans begins to heat up, however, that code of silence is beginning to melt away. Here’s what Yamauchi had to say about the competition while speaking with NowGamer just last week:

“[…] I keep my eye on them from a distance. My observations tend to more often than not centre on, ‘Oh, so they’re concentrating extra hard on this’, or ‘oh, so they’re not worried about that’, or ‘they’ve really got a lot of passion for that’. All my observations are first-impression sort of things. I don’t look at the games in too much detail. Just a one-glance observation is good enough. I think about what they’re trying to do, how much time they’re spending, how they’re going about putting the game together, how do they feel about the game as they’re making it… that sort of thing.”

Yamauchi’s comments stand in contrast to what Turn 10‘s Creative Director, Dan Greenawalt, said about him at E3 earlier this year:

dan-greenawalt“We watched the Sony press conference and we were like, OK so we just brought what we believe firmly is the best racing game ever made, and our competition didn’t show up. So now you can see why I’m fairly bullish. I hate to sound so cocky but the truth is the stars have aligned. I don’t know how else to say it.

“Kazunori Yamauchi-san is someone I have tremendous respect for. I have tremendous respect for the work of team, but I am a GT fan. I bought my first car that I stressed out about buying because I played it in Gran Turismo. I’m in this industry because of that game.

“That said, as a fan of the series, he hasn’t done anything for me in years. So in many ways he’s handing the baton to me. He probably doesn’t see it that way, but I do, because I believe that I’m now taking what he ignited in me as a passion, and taking it to a much, much, much broader level. I’m not saying it’s necessarily larger yet, but definitely broader, younger, older, men, women. So I’m really excited.”

And, via Joystiq,

“So, props to Kazunori Yamauchi-san and the PS1 team. That said, I feel that he’s passed us the baton. Perhaps he hasn’t meant to, but we have taken the genre to new levels and they’ve stopped evolving the genre. So again, tremendous respect to him, but I’d say the differentiator is they’re old school. The emperor’s naked, and I don’t want to, you know, I don’t want to slap him around, but no game competes [with] us right now.”

…and Xbox360Achievements:

“I play a lot of racing games, including PC racing games and I have not seen anything that is even within years of what we’re delivering here.”

As this war of words plays out, it’s becoming evident that, to Yamauchi, it may not be a “war” at all. As we learn more about him, he appears to view himself as an artist, judging his work by the standards of his own ideals. Likewise, when analyzing the work of his peers, he does not try to compare it to his own – instead, he attempts to understand their interpretation of what a racing game should be, and how their work may have lived up to their own goals.

Heated rhetoric aside, it’s very interesting to see how two very different groups of people approach the same problem. Yamauchi, in his quest for the perfect driving simulation, delivers games of stunning quality. Turn 10, in their pursuit of the GT franchise, introduce innovative new features to differentiate their product in unique and creative ways. Ultimately, it’s a race from which neither will emerge “victorious” over the other, because racing game fans have already won.

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114 Comments

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  1. The only way to solve this: Dan vs. Kaz @ the Nurburgring. I wonder what they would drive?

  2. Tenacious D

    To my amazement, Michael said pretty much what I was meaning to.

    Kazunori-dono is very much a visionary artist, creating a work which is like art and a gift in one package. The fact that it’s amazingly fun is a huge bonus.

    Dan Greenawalt reminds me of a mafia don with a gun in his coat. He scowls and glares at you, and almost seems to dare you to disagree with him. He practically shouts at you how awesome the game is. It’s almost like he’s afraid you won’t like it. And the thing is, if FW3 was so awesome, it could do most of the speaking for itself. The fact that it needs Dan’s help says a lot.

    The demo is a lot like Forza 2, which is fine, but hardly what I’d call Forza torn down and rebuilt from the floor up. It looks like the same models, the same too-wide Nurburgring, feels like the same physics just tweaked a bit. And he should have said something like, “We took Forza 2 to the next level, and we think with all the new cars, the new tracks, the new livery options and new store front, this is the Forza you’ve been dreaming of.” That would have been dandy. But he’s wee’d in the pool now, and he and his game now have an aroma and a yellow stain that may never go away.

  3. Bank Alexander

    LevelHead

    No. ^_^

  4. Zmann42087

    This is pretty typical. And basically nothing that I wouldn’t expect from either party. In essence, Kaz = Class & Dan = Ass

  5. “That said, as a fan of the series, he hasn’t done anything for me in years.”

    Like what? Do what for you? Your being a fan of GT entitles you to favours from Yamauchi?

  6. smthrlr

    Alright, I guess I have to hand it to GTP for putting this up because I will give them the benefit of the doubt and say that it is a set up to start a flam–I mean, comparison discussion to end all comparison discussions.

    First off, I will disclaim that I do not own a PS3 at this juncture. I do, however, own a 360 because a) I was given an Xbox for my birthday way back when and I am a loyal fan of the console and b) when it came time to buy a new system (notice that I did not say “next gen” because I have heard that the 360 is not a true “next gen” console, whatever that means) the 360 was more affordable and FM2/PGR4 were in the pipeline and I remembered how much I had loved those games the first time around (PGR2/FM). I have always been a fan of racing games both on the PC and the PS/PS2–NFS (Porsche Unleashed, mainly), Rally Trophy, Mobil 1 British Rally Championship, Test Drive, F1 2000-2002, the original GT mods for the EA F1 games, GT Legends and so on for the PC, but the GT series and the GT series only on the PS/PS2. I had the Xbox plus a good gaming PC but came this close to buying a full-size PS2 just so I could play GT4–luckily, I had a friend that had grown tired of gaming (?) and basically “lent” me his PS2 for an, ahem, undisclosed amount of time (I eventually finished GT4 and had to remind him that I still had his console!) so I got GT4 and absolutely loved it, especially for the DTM championship, which I must have played through with every DTM car in the game many times over.

    The point of all this is to show that I am not a FM fanboy, even though I still firmly believe that many of the comments flaming the game are undeserved because it is a great game. I disagree with the physics argument because from what I remember the physics model hasn’t changed in a long time; you can still bounce of AI cars in order to properly round a turn and so on—this was much more difficult to do in FM, mainly because of the damage model. Now, it seems this will no longer be an issue with GT5 but I will believe it when I see it.

    Now, the argument here seems more and more about developer v developer rather than game v game so I will weigh in on this by saying that yes, Greenwalt/T10/and MSoft are very cocky but think of it this way: For the first time that I can remember, the GT series finally has some competition. I don’t want to hear that it’s no competition because it’s a different system because many on both these and FM forums seem to have both systems so this can be discussed as a competition. For the first time, GT won’t be able to simply plough forward thinking they are the only fish in the sea because it seems that FM won’t go away like Sega GT did, or Tokyo Extreme racing, or Driving Emotion S and so on. I feel that Greenwalt has to show his confidence because he’s taking a genuine run at the crown of racing games and he has such a steep hill to climb with very little to lose. KY, on the other hand, really has a lot to lose which is why I feel that the GT series has had such an evolutionary life over the last few years/iterations—kind of a “if it ain’t broke, why fix it?” approach.

    That all being said, I am looking forward to both games—it’s a good time to be a car guy, y’know?

  7. GT will never dissapoint us. It is the greatest game of all time and everyone else makes copycats. In Kaz we trust..

  8. Well observing how both parties react towards each other i already see the big loser in Forza 3. they are attacking and getting dirty with PD/KY in a typical “lost their nerves” style. That’s not the way they would buy credibility fo their work by any means and they lag years behing PD in terms of realism in their game. So sorry Microsoft but keep trying in other ways! I have great admiration for Kazunori San who looks no less than highly professional and ethical wich the competition lacks. Looking forward to the GT5 final :)

  9. jagenigma

    KY hasn’t given up on GT. Don’t be saying that the Baton was passed to you greenwalt. KY is expanding his game further and it will come out much better than Forza 3 will although i would like to play it too. But anyways, back to my original point. Have you been offended by GT in any way that your company and you crap all over GT for what it doesn’t have. You come off as low bottom feeding self loving sac of vomit by saying that you have been passed the baton. Kazunori Still has a firm hold on it and hasn’t shown signs of giving it up.

  10. Vinsanity

    @neem I’m not saying it is vaporware, I’m just saying I can see why people use the term as a way of showing their frustration.

    I also said that it is way later “than some expected” not, “than PD promised”, or “it should have been.”

    Basically, I think it was a fine thing for someone who is frustrated to call GT5, although I agree it would not be a accurate term for a writer of a magazine article to use about GT5.

  11. Michael

    Yes! I agree with above. Gran Turismo is like utopia. You don’t know nothing but the feeling that it is special, you know that it has that “soul” into it, life into it, special fragrance which is very pleasant, neuronic so. You can always take a GT game seriously and it will not dissapoint that’s why the sales. People saw that this game is serious entertainment. And what makes GT so great? It’s the actual driving. It just feels good, like making love. Dan Greenawalt can say whatever he desires, but he knows he’s no competition to Gran Turismo, that game title has the power to make racing game fans finish in their pants. People can’t sleep nights before the day they know they can buy Gran Turismo. People get drunk and run parties before the day they get Gran Turismo. I believe the actual anticipation of Gran Turismo is more pleasant than the Gran Turismo game itself. It’s the blissful moments that a player meets at one moment in Gran Turismo, when everything alighns perfectly and the player gets that joy feeling from driving, and you can always push the game as hard as you can and it will not feel less quality, it will be just as believable and enjoyable. After such blissful moments it is deep love for this game. Even Kazunori Yamauchi isn’t fully aware what he has created.

    KY is so confident because he is a man that stands firmly on his feet. He’s very very rich and has a lot of credit for his work, actually that came from gamers.

  12. Let’s just put it this way, in a cars point of view. T10 is more like running a riced out Honda Civic vs PD on a master piece Ferrari Enzo, it’s actually no comparison. No matter how loud your mouth is on that little civic because it has 20 inch rims and huge spoilers, it wont have a chance in a 200+ mile an hour V12 hyper car.

    Plus the look. Even if you spent $20k’s or $30k’s on that little civic to make it look good, it will still look uglier if you compare it to a car like Enzo or a Zonda.

    Forza 3 is a fun and great game I admit (I manage to get a pirated version, but will buy it when it comes, I might.), but comparing it to a racing and car passionate inspired game like GT is quite a joke. Forza came from a tuner / painter / designer type of person which is a lot of T10 employee, and come up with Forza. I appreciate their work, but saying their racing “game” is the definitive of this gen is very desperate move to out done Polyphony. I will be surprise if they can’t manage to sell more than GT3 with all the hype they made all over the globe (sort of) and internet to make Forza 3 the top racing game / sim out there. They might have a chance in U.S.(well…), but in U.K.? (Where most GT fans are), is quit slim, and don’t even mention Japan.

    P.S. It’s quit funny seeing a pro driver playing forza 3 that crashed a lot on their Le mans car (in forza 3) and they were all over the place, then saying it’s the most accurate sim they’ve ever played! Lmao. T10 paid much of Benjamins I see? Well they’ve been doing it for a while now. :D

  13. Dan Greenawalt must just keep his mouth shut,he should be like KY,just quietly show some of his work and let that do the talking.
    Every time i played on FM2 i was wishing i brought my PS3 to my friends house so i can play GT5P rather.

  14. Mickle Pickle

    BlaBlaBla… If “Sales numbers” is the only thing that counts, and objectively where the war ought to take place…

    here’s what i think:

    Once FM3 comes out, NOT everyone will be there. (even tho it’s the first one that shows up)
    But when GT5 comes out, EVERYONE will be getting it.

    So in the mean time if you cannot wait for a newer racing game to come out and If you can afford to buy XBox and FM3, great for you and have a blast ;)

    But still the true winner for me would be GT5 and GT5P.

    and another wienner is that Dan G. ;)

    Great Post “Alba” and “G25″ and “Tvensky”, and “TRC Ivorbigun” “dakidakov” LOL “Pierced Lead”. Great letter “Jamie C” and “David Macphail” is absolutely right… FM3 knows it cannot compete with GT5, so they might as well steal money ahead of time from those who know less… ;)

    Peace out.

  15. neem’

    Vinsanity: The problem is, what is a similar product? Obviously, from what we’ve heard, GT5 is a much bigger game than FM3 (and I’m only talking about the cars here), so can you apply FM3’s timeframe to GT5? Of course, they are very similar in terms of gameplay but I doubt FM3 took that long to develop from FM2 in the first place, similarly I’d be surprised if PD had to re-write the entire physics engine from scratch after GT4/GT5P, they’re both just highly (possibly) tweaked revisions of what already existed, I guess what takes the time is the online capability and car/track modeling, and GT5 has more. I don’t mean to be rude about FM3, but it’s like comparing a gourmet 3 course meal to, say, McDonalds (although I stress I am purely just talking about quantity here, not quality); you wouldn’t call a 3 course meal a ‘vapourmeal’ just because it’s taking longer than a Big Mac Meal, so it seems unfair to say GT5 is.

    Oh and the release date isn’t that far away, I’m sure there have been other games without Prologues, without near final build demos, without a variety of engine-rendered videos AND a more distant release date that haven’t been called vapourware, so why is GT5?

    And before you say because it’s taken so long; when was it officially announced? 2006, under a different name (a technicality, yes, but it wasn’t the same game it is now), that was only three years ago, not five. Also, I know it had been in development for longer (in 2008, KY said it had been in development for three years), but I’d really like to know exact figures for how many man hours GT5 specifically has been worked on, how many GT5P was worked on and how many GTPSP was worked on; also, the car models that were used in GT5P and PSP; do they count as GT5 development or not?

  16. this is just TYPICAL Microsoft, when they know the opposition is better they resort to dirty marketing tactics, theyre not proving anything other than the fact that they have the mentalities of 5 year olds (“UH UH, Mines is better you poo poo head”)

    the real winner is already Polyphony as they don’t need to PAY for their reviews nor do they stoop to the low levels that Microsoft do

    hilarious fact: Forza sponsored Risi Competizione when Risi’s drivers used GT4 to practice for Le Mans as they prefered it

  17. Ollie F

    Of course the game will be released *slaps forehead*. But I dunno, Gran Turismo just feels different to other games, you can just tell its gran turismo.

  18. Congratulations to Xbox 360 owners! this is the moment, I knew it would come, I regret not owning both sistems… But the waiting comes shorter and shorter and who knows… maybe Kaz isnt really that confident and he has found the challenge which will make him work and work to make the number one simulator.
    Forza is an amazing game, ENJOY IT!

  19. I didnt Play Forza (no one title) but saying that GT is not evolving is really stupid, specialy from someone who try to make a ‘different clone’ of GT. Almost all games evolving and they must…
    Lets be honest, in last 15 or more years I can say that I see only 2 true racing/driving games that give something new to genre (I mean in racing/driving games in general), that are Gran Turismo (first one for PSX) and NFS Underground.
    All others are interpretations and ‘upgrades’ of that two titles. I dont count specific licensed series games (F1, NASCAR, WRC, FIA GT, etc…).
    I know that we (race and driving fans) can argue days, weeks or so with any single new feature that on game bring new to genre, but thats all just ‘upgrades’ or ‘cosmetics’ is better word for this (language barrier).
    So damage is not something new, or pit-stops, rain, or whatever…
    I know that some of you find this like fanboy speaking, but still I find GT at top and cant see in near future that someone change that. It is not maybe the most realistic GAME but it is ‘just’ a game and that is was to suppose to, even if it is more than that for many of us who enjoyed and still enjoying in probably the best driving/racing GAME.

  20. Vinsanity

    @Chris don’t worry I approve of you calling GT5 vaporware. Obviously GT5 will be released but with the delays (although technically hasn’t been delayed yet, the release date was just way later than some expected) combined with the memory of how often GT4 was pushed back, it sometimes feel that the game will never be released.

    And back to wiki’s definition:
    @neem’ “Vaporware is a term used to describe a product, usually software, that has been announced by a developer during or before its development and, therefore, may never actually be released.”

    GT5 fits because it was announced during it’s development “and, therefore, may never actually be released.” Probably will be released but you can’t know for sure.

    Also the very next line is:
    “The term is usually applied to products which fail to emerge after having well-exceeded the period of development time that was initially claimed or would normally be expected for the development cycle of a similar product.”

    Which sounds a lot like GT5 to me.

  21. PlayGuy

    When this is posted in a GT fan site, I think no one can expect anything else than criticism.
    I agree T10 talk is cocky and arrogant, but they made a hell of a good game. I haven’t tried F3 yet, but F2 is one of the best racing games I’ve played, right up there with GT3 and Live for Speed. I don’t include GT4 because it is waaaay too unrealistic to me.
    They took GT and slapped a couple of awsome features like drivetrain and engine swapping and car customization, and worked around the awful physics GT4 had. To me, that was everything. GT3 was awsome since the driving physics felt right, and you could modify cars (hybrids), even though you had to hack the game. But GT4 just felt plain weird.
    I used to be a die hard GT fan before I bought a XBOX360 (it’s cheaper than the PS3, that was the only reason), I used to bash forza and think that I would never play it, since my only true love was GT. But then I tried it, since it was the only racing simulator for the XBOX, and everything changed.
    Maybe some of you are in the same position I were back then. If you are, you should play it before bashing it. I know i learnt my lesson.

    Besides, for a game that has been in the works for 5 (!) years, it hasn’t shown much to be this hyped. I mean, it’s crazy beautiful(i call it car porn), but, in the videos, the cars didn’t seem to act the way they should. I dunno, they seemed to have no weight, just floating around the circuits. Maybe it was because it was an old demo. I’ve never played GT5p so I don’t have a real impression about it. But then again, ut still doesn’t have skidmarks, for example. How can a game in the works for 5 years still doesn’t have skidmarks?

    Also, weird how everyone was commenting about a 09 release, but as soon as people saw those videos with the damage they suddenly delayed it to march 2010.

    And you have to admit, the guy from T10 is right, right now, there’s no other game that is close to F3.

  22. hardvibes

    Sele1981 WHAT THE HELL ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT… christmas 2010… facepalm…

  23. Jamie C and Me.Switch nailed it.

    This dan guy is a joke and compared to GT, his game sucks.

  24. irishash85

    the fact that this Turn10 Dan guy is flapping his jaw about a bunch of stuff that isn’t even true has 100% convinced me not to buy or even rent Forza 3. if you really think you’re game is so good, let the press do the boasting; let the game and fans speak for themselves. it looks terrible to any party when you toot your own horn, and on top of that the stuff you boast about is pure opinion or BS. it just shows the kind of pressure he’s feeling from PD, that he would have to say things like he has to degrade other titles.

    i guarantee you he’s not an “avid PC sim racing fan” like he says he is, and if he is, he’s probably playing TOCA 1 and comparing it to Forza 3. there’s no possible way that the full game will be SO much different than the demo (which i’ve played) that it can compare to NetKar Pro, or even Race On. should be able to sue his company for false advertising.

  25. TurboTeam

    MFG, where are whe talking about. There can’t be a war becouse:

    1 – You need 2 for a war (imo)
    2 – There are only bits to compare?
    3 – The turn10 guy seems way to stupid to find Kaz
    4 – And when they aranged an appointment, Kaz won’t come (like the game :P)

  26. Sam__ NY

    yeah I agree with rand al thor. GT5 prologue out sold forza 2, so how can Greenawalt say forza is better when a demo out sold their last title. That must be a huge embarrassment to all the guys at turn 10 studios.

  27. rand al thor

    hahaha c’mon fellas. there’s only going to be only one winner from sales and reviews point of view. and that is GRAN TURISMO. stop equating both games. forza is nothing compared to GT.

    the site and jordan wants to bring both games on a equal footing but we all know which is the master and which is the pretender. there is a reason why forza managers are talking smack. they are insecure. insecure because they know whatever they do, it will never match 10 years of car racing excellence of gran turismo.

    forza will sell a third of gran turismo. that’s all anyone needs to know.

  28. LevelHead

    “A major part of Microsoft’s console strategy seems to consist of publicly badmouthing the competition whether it be games or consoles and they seem to care very little about how stupid it makes them look, probably because there are a lot of very stupid people who lap it up.”

    I love that comment. Is this guy for real? Was it not Sony who called the Xbox 360 a Xbox 1.5? Didn’t Sony say that the next generation only starts when they say it starts meaning the Xbox 360 is not a true HD console? Meanwhile how many PS3 games run in true HD (1080p)? Not many. In fact the Xbox 360 also has games in this so called ‘true’ HD. Sony has been far more arrogant when it comes to the gaming platform. That much is true. They even told us to work longer hours to buy a PS3. The same console that they said they could release no games for it and people would still buy it. I guess that’s why it’s now half the price of what it was in less than 3 years.

    Anyways racing fans should only care about one thing, and that’s how good each racing game is. I’ll be playing Forza 3 this year and hopefully GT5 next year.

  29. There are so many people saying GT is slow, always comparing it with GRID and Shift. But honestly, when driving 200km/h (or 120mp/h), did your vision ever blur ? Or did you ever got the feeling you are so fast you won`t be able to see the road ahead of you ?
    i agree with ICANT55, “true” Sense of Speed comes from handling the car. At the beginning you can take a corner without breaking, and after some upgrades you can`t, then you think “wow, my car is getting fast”. And when breaking, you have to be careful in corners or you`ll spin the crap out of yourself.
    I have always loved lightweight cars, and their nervous behaviour when breaking. Like it when the rear is weaving around :)

  30. fredint

    When Dan Greenawalt says we taken the genre to new levels, he means this?

    http://i37.tinypic.com/fc766p.jpg

    http://i37.tinypic.com/htenvq.jpg

  31. Sele1981

    Let´s see what happens when FM3 comes out in a few days… maybe I get one X360…

  32. No46_TheDoctor

    This is why I don’t like this dude Dan Greenwhatshisface.

    Why does he feel the need to slag off GT and KY? It’s obvious to everyone which is the better game, and he knows it, so he has to try and run the other side down.

    Can’t wait until March when he slips up, and that “batton” goes right up his arrrrrtichoke.

    The wonderfull thing about the internet is once you say something, it hangs about forever, like a bad smell, way to go Dan.

  33. ICANT55

    Sounds like the Butt holes @ microsoft are trying everything to get sales before GT5 comes out… After that dan and his team will be looking for NEW JOBS!. dont get me wrong but i have played both games during the years,And i must say forza is a good game especially when it come to the colors and customization but,when it came to drivabilty it lacked in true Sense of Speed…(every car brakes do not get hot and glow).On the other hand GT games have always had that(Sense of Speed) and makes you wanna keep playing.With that said and seeing what gt5 has done so far its begining to look like dan greenwalt will be very upset when Gt5 hits the stores.Gran Turismo has what turn 10 is trying to get and they still have a long way to go and that is to make people have a “Real Driving EXPERIENCE”

    P.S. The “Need For Speed” franchies tried that shit before buy saying they were better and failed….Now they just follow

  34. Mustangmiha

    I HATE PEOPLE WHO HATE GRAN TURISMO/FORZA AND THEY’RE ARGUING FOR NOTHING.

  35. Jamie C

    I agree with Switch, they are using the same strategy vs GT as microsoft did with the 360 vs the PS3. That is: Flood the internet with bull**** and beat them to market to steal market share.

    Sooner or later the public will realise these shady tactics, and it WILL backfire on them.

  36. The cheek of greenwald is quite astonishing, the only addition on damage in this reincarnation is that the cars can flip, great but I bet PD could make it look ten times better, because it has better graphics, better physics engine and quite frankly it will be a much better game, greenwald looks like a spooky child who’s not being noticed, he needs to grow up, everyone can see that gran turismo 5 will be the best driving game eer made and this is evident in the many contradictions of turn10

  37. Me.Switch

    Well at first i have to say i like Forza, but what Dan Greenwald says:”but we have taken the genre to new levels and they’ve stopped evolving the genre” is so damn bull****.
    Finally they pushed nothing to antoher level with Forza3. damage almost the same like Forza2 and really nothing special, graphics are better but GT5P still looks way more realistic to me, drivingsimulation is almost the same as in Forza2 (but it is really good), no new Racingseries like Nascar,WRC,Formula1,SuperGT, no wheater, no night(WTF??), no fullanimated box…and a big part of the Forza-Series is a copy of GT (thats ok, but dont forget !)
    So what they did was some better graphics than F2, and a lot of more cars and tracks than in forza2. WOW that really takes the genre to antoher level….ironic off.
    Every realistic Racingfan is just disappointed about those BIG WORDS of Greenwalt and the deliviered update of Forza2 called Forza3. I think it would have been much better to develope one or two years longer and bring some new stuff within the game. It feels like they were focusing to bring this game before GT5, no matter what it will cost.
    Thumbs down Dan in my oppinion you make great racinggames but you and your “team” are way behind Kaz and Polyhony and what GT stands for.

    Mfg

  38. Jamie C

    (a message i sent to Dan Greenawalt in June)

  39. Jamie C

    Good Day Mr.Greenawalt

    First and foremost – thank you for being a part of the video game development community. You are part of a whole that pushes the envelope, and for that, you have my respect.

    Over the last week since E3, I have noticed numerous headlines in gaming news which cite quotes given by yourself:

    In regards to Gran Turismo & Kazunori Yamauchi-san :
    ““That said, as a fan of the series, he hasn’t done anything for me in years. So in many ways he’s handing the baton to me. ”

    Now, “he hasn’t done anything for me in years” is quite a subjective and personal statement, and does not lend any credence to your followup statement: “So in many ways he’s handing the baton to me”

    Following such logic, we could assume that any racing game developer, who has a lack of personal satisfaction with a competitors product, may declare that the competitor is conceding or passing general continuation of a concept on to them?
    I am quite aware that this is not the literal statement you make, but what you insinuate is bright as day – and I felt compelled to convey my personal opinion of that to you.

    I have never tried Forza, and to be honest, I was close to actually giving Forza 3 a serious try when it came out – but following such comments, I cannot in good conscious do so. I find your comments approaching dillisional proportions, bullish, and a complete lack of respect towards the Gran Turismo series, Kazunori, and Gran Turismo fans across the world (need I remind you that these are the fans you are trying to pull?)

    I would be much more inclined to try a product which demonstrates real and tangable improvements over a competitor, than one whose lead developer blurts blatant PR-speak from his seasonal soap box.

    Good luck with your final stages of development on Forza,

    Sincerely,

    J

  40. tek9[r]

    Heros should always show up late to the fight, like Naruto, Goku, U.S. WW2.
    (J/J)
    This is not the first competetor, probably won’t be the last. As most have been Namco products they have been fun, but not addictive. GT gets me in the “Zone” and produces adrenalin. Kightrider got me interested in cars, #43-STP made me a fan but GT turned me into a crazed gear head that would do anything to get my hands on GT5. Dan Greenawalt wishes he could work for PD. His frustration is makeing him poop from the wrong end.

    Loud sophmoric Americans are not indictive of all of us. only the ones full of fear operate like this.

  41. David Macphail

    Give me a break…..when GT5 comes out people won’t be asking “Is this better than Forza 3?”. They’ll be asking “What’s Forza 3???”.

    Microsoft HAD to rush F3 out – if it came out at the same time as GT5 it would have been the laughing stock of the videogame industry.

  42. I have played the FM3 Demo. Very good game, but that`s it. It`s very obvious how different the games are. When playing FM3 it is easy to notice that it`s made by copying GT, exactly as Dan said.
    But when playing GT you notice that the game is made because of KY`s love for cars, as he himself is racing. The cars always look so great, they are not categorized in A, B and C classes with power, steering and acceleration points. They are simply there with their real specs. And when upgrading suspension you don`t gain handling points like in FM3, you gain the POSSIBILITY to improve handling by tuning the settings. And that looks more like a simulation.
    I always have the feeling i know how the car will behave, so i can control it perfectly, or tune it accordingly. FM3 is lacking that feeling. Even NFS Shift has it`s own Style, because they didn`t copy another game.

    Can`t wait to take the Lotus Elise 111R to the Nurburgring Nordschleife :)

  43. Pierced Lead

    Donkeys rush, and they usually fail.

    Horses gallop with fluent moments, calculating each step before they take the next.

    So where was I? Oh yes, who’s the jackass here?

  44. dakidakov

    I feel i am getting too much from Dan’s mouth. GT has been around long before people knew about Forza, or even XBOX. I have owned a PS1 PS2 and now a PS3 and PS3 slim. I have GT1 ,GT2, GT3 ,GT4P(Very rare), GT4 ,GT5 and in march i will have GT5. Now tell me how can you compare this to T10….. Even though Forza may be a good game, it can’t come near the glory of PD. And bashing a game from which T10 were isnpired from ,seems funny…. It’s like now my dad invents something…. I get inspired and improve it a little bit, and start bashing my dad for his crap product. But because he is more experienced, after few months he releases a revolutionary product i can’t even touch. This is what’s gonna happen……. Trust me

  45. tezzatrov

    Dan Greenawalt has to say his game is the best and try to make people believe it otherwise he is out of a job and replaced by the next “great believer”.
    Would this amazing man hold down a job at Polyphony Digital?

  46. Dan is a clown, along with some other T10 employees who I won’t mention…*cough* Che *cough*
    GT5 will speak for itself, unlike Forza and Dan’s constant barrage of bullshit.

    GT> Forza for once and for all!

  47. Sele1981

    I hate to say it but I´m saving money for an X360 only for FM3 :( I hate to play racinggames with an joypad but there is no reason to invest 1000$ only for FM3…

    GT5 will never come out in 5 months, I think we get it on christmas 2010 (if)… So i need FM3… MS wins round one… most racing fans will get an 360 because PD or Sony has failed their job to bring an full GT game to the PS3 since 3-4 years…

    And when GT5 is coming out, Sony will win round two… then the people get bored from FM3 and the 360 boys gets some PS3…

  48. The truth is, that alone by the fact that Forza is compared to the legendary GT series makes it a winner, while PD is a loser this generation and maybe beyond.
    It’s not that Forza is that good, it’s more that Kaz and his team made some major faults this time around and the reputation is damaged. Now that they finally get aware of their stalling, it will be difficult to satisfy all racing fans with GT5. The momentum is on Turn10, mainly because they are already on the market with the product.
    Like Woody Allen once said: 80% of success is showing up. (sad but true for most ‘fans’)

    I, for myself, think that both GT5 and Forza will be not that great. If the PC sim-market wouldn’t be dead, the true winner could come from there without a doubt. Unfortunatly, there is nothing on the horizon.
    That’s why we have to stick with terrible games like Forza 3. They don’t even get the real world tracks together. It’s really a step back if you look at the wrong elevation and apex angles of their tracks.

  49. TRC IVORBIGUN

    I can’t be bothered getting involved anymore with this war between the franchises. They are both great games that offer different features. However I will say that Turn 10 need to stop making comments about Gran Turismo because the more they do this the more they make themselves look in fear. Im sure they think they are promoting Forza 3 but for me its having the opposite effect.

  50. spooneurope

    Forza doesnt run on FULL HD? What?

    Sorry just for that you’ve lost the baton.

  51. Tvensky

    I just hate USA/Microsoft marketing.. I rather play some Mario Karts then mad man’s evil game Forza… did you notice track selection in forza 3.. tracks are one to one to older GT series… specially “autumn ring”.. they have track “maple raceway” or something like that.. the game itself is a Gran Turismo.. just Cheaper.. just like everything made by Americans! don’t like this sort of stuff.. the only good thing about this that GT gets a competition.. and that’s it..

  52. Paul Mc

    Turn10 have a right to be cocky about it. They delivered a great racing game months ahead of its nearest rival. Although it may seem overly confident, the game has just been released he wants to drum up publicity…alls fair in love and marketing :)

  53. I find it hard to trust anyone who looks like Donald Sutherland’s illegitimate child…

  54. slaphappygunner

    sily rabbit (Dan Greenwaldt) trix are for kids.

  55. Turn10 simply use the terms “Gran Turismo” “KY” “PD” in the same sentences as “Forza” “DG” and “T10″ to draw attention. This is one typical stinky MS marketing strategy.
    You repeat something so many times, that the most unaware consumers begin to believe what they are saying. This is the worst type of marketing in my opinion. It is very similar to politics or other type of “magic products” that heavily rely on lies or half truths to fool the consumer.
    The premise of this type of marketing is that the consumer doesn’t act intelligent.

    T10 lied their own loyal fans. Just go take a look at their forums and the complains about bullshots, graphic issues, glitches, photo mode compression, and many others.

    I won’t judge F3. It sure has it’s qualities. For me, Wipeout (arcade excellence + ultra speed), Need For Speed Shift (nice immersion + fun factor), Dirt2 (solid racer + many offroad disciplines), and above all GT5p GTpsp and soon GT5 (sim excellence + photorealism + massive amount of content) cover all the spectrum of what i like in racing games. And F3 is a game that hasn’t got it’s own space or uniqueness.
    This is why they need to talk so much about Gran Turismo.

  56. Praggia

    Turn 10 seem very arrogant if you ask me. Kaz on the other hand is the Zen Master.
    Cool calm and collected.

    In the end only one will emerge as victorious

    I think we all know who that is

  57. Thunderbolt

    @ Confi-User-3:

    Amen!

  58. I think the Forza dude is trying to prop up his game to sell more copies. It’s not beyond Microsoft to shut down Turn 10 if they do not sell up to a specific number of units. Guy needs his job.

  59. Confi-User-3

    if you can’t beat an opponent in a fair way you have to talk bad about him and make him look bad for everyone.
    I guess it’s that waht T10 wants to do… talking a game bad because they know that they can’t deliver as good quality as PD does.
    If I would have a X-Box 360 I would buy Forza, I’m sure about that, but I grew up with PlayStation, Ridge Racer, Crash Bandicoot and Gran Turismo and I was very happy with it, so I won’t buy a X-Box because of 1 game… I’m a PS driving simulator addicted, full stop. And PD works on the whole Gran Turismo series for already 1,5 decades, wo which game do I trust more? Right. Kaz’s Gran Turismo!

  60. I’ve never liked Dan Greenawalt since I saw him at E3, he’s just squirmy stuck-up snob.

  61. Chris, Wikipedia isn’t a textbook… I’m just saying that vapourware tends to be a product that has no solid proof of actually existing in a releasable form; GT5 has a release date, a demo, various videos, not to mention the fact that GT1, 2, 3, 4 and GT5P weren’t vapourware either. Everyone thought Killzone 2 was vapourware too, simply because the trailer was so good, I guess the same is happening with GT5.

    I think the thing is they never said how long it was going to take so everyone assumed it should take a couple of years at the very most but really, who decides how long games take to develop? There’s also the fact that we still don’t know exactly what the game includes, but we do have a release date and it’s not that far away.

  62. The “war” between GT and FM3 reminds me of the line “Aerodynamics if for people who can’t comprehend displacement.”

    And of course you can reverse that line for an equally instigating phrase :D

  63. Forza 3 will be a good game while GT5 will be a great game. After having played the FM3 demo it thought it was good but again not great. Where is the earth shattering aspects of this game? I can say for certain its not the physics, I don’t think they touched the physics since FM2. If they are the next generation racer should they be building from the ground up an all new game? Because GT5 is…. I have planned on buying FM3 because I know it will be good and it will tide me over but all this bs rhetoric is really making me hesitant so I may actually buy DiRT 2 and NFS Shift used THEN pick up a used copy of FM3 now.

  64. Not sure if im the only one, but when i come to GTplanet. I don’t care about consoles or how many consoles others or I own. I come here for the fact that it is a Gran Tourismo forum.
    I really dont like it when people bring this console bs war to this forum.

    At the end of the day, i would like to know what the makers from GT will offer me and not what Forza will offer me. I play GT for the love of cars, not for the features. I love the fact that GT offers cars including the experience.

    There is a reason that Turn 10 talks carp about PD, put them down, and make false claims.
    They keep comparing themselves to GT so they in turn can be noticed.

    4 years ago I have never heard of Forza nor Turn 10. AND I DON’T CARE TO KNOW but i do see what they are doing, and its cheap. They are riding on the fame of GT to get attention from the media, fans of GT, and especially PD.

    GT is the biggest franchise games have ever seen.

    In japan Ronins are wondering samurai that goes around to try to beat all the masters. They will keep comparing that they are equals but in reality they are not.

  65. What Greenawalt said is just trying to get people’s attention, it is a marketing skill. Downplaying a component’s product. Don’t get me wrong, I like Forza too, I owned and played 1 and 2, and will buy 3 too. It’s a great game. But marketing skill is still what it is. Look at what they did in neogaf, it is just so embarassing.

  66. Bank Alexander

    Yeah I don’t know what to say lol.
    Dan Greenwalt is crazy and Kaz just keeps on truckin’.

    GT5 will be awesome!

  67. Bank Alexander

    @ CarBastard and marchy

    I agree with you guys.

  68. I’ve played Forza 1,2 and the demo of 3. Forza is entertaining but to compare it to GT is absurd.

    To anyone who can actually say with a straight face that the interior models on Forza 3 are comparable to GT have some beer googles on.

    And the cars flipping over?? For god’s sake if you get on the grass and turn in any direction the car will flip like a hollywood stunt. I found it laughable at best.

    Forza=NFS

  69. GamerCarMan

    @Chris

    GT5 is set for release March of 2010 in Japan with a heavily hinted at worldwide release or one relatively soon. Look it up. 5 months from now my good man =/= Vaporware.

  70. just let the games do the talking..

    you can argue all day but it’s just opinions. look at the facts.

    the fact is GT5:Prologue still looks better than Forza 3. GT5 will have more cars in it than Forza 3. Forza 3 has that paint thingy but does that matter when you are in cockpit view? And TEH DAMAGE is now in GT5, all it is lacking is Porsche.

  71. The survey of course was Forza 3 vs GT5Prologue…

  72. I remember an advertisment of Forza 3 was a survey where the people how vote for Forza 3 will recieve some DLC for the game, so if this is the advertisemen of the game that indicates how fanboys they are…

  73. Well the eternal disscusion, i think it´s a way better the behavior of Yamauchi, because i never see him in a fanboy disscusion or thinking himself like the best (but in his work is the best, jejeje). In the other hand we have the guys of Turn 10 which have been caught making fanboys comments in different forums and if you read their words talking about Yamauchi you can notice how they can´t compete in a healthy way.

    Yamauchi at least value the work of the other people.

  74. ismellbacon611

    i think that yamauchi is doing a great job of what he’s supposed to be doing… and thats finishing the final product up in these last few months of game development for gt5 … forza releases this friday so i can see why they want all the attention… there attitude wasnt the best toward gt5 though… saying that your trying to be passed the baton then saying you respect them and then saying your game is better is an good case of bad attitude… i’m sure forza will have a better game than there previous but, in now way will they compete with the real driving simulator. this is because 1 they are only on there third game…less experience 2 they arent using state of the art computers as is gt5 and 3 i dont think they have a more indepth understanding on what a racing game is about… honestly i think nfs shift is already better than what forza 3 has to offer because they (as do pd) understand that adrenaline and the feeling of speed is needed. forza just doesnt have it . love there graphics there physics need work. gt5 just keep doing what your doing. you havent yet dissapointed us with your final products

  75. maxpontiac

    PD will continue to show their professionalism, while Turn 10 shows their ability to maintain the mudslinging approach that Microsoft employs.

    Kaz and his team are more interested in letting his product do the talking while Turn 10 is more interested in slander and online bribes.

    I have little doubt that they will both be excellent games when they each are launched, so I am unsure why Turn 10 is so aggressive, defensive, and at times outwardly projecting their severe insecurities.

  76. I’ve been playing GT since day one. Its changed a bit since then then. In some ways its loss some of its magic, and/or I’ve changed. GT2-5P have brought one quite a few new great things to the show. Things it took work to get used to, GT5P being the hardest, but perhaps the most appreciated.

    I appreciate Forza also. It is sometimes boring to play, but in someways it felt more interesting then GT. Like the cars being more everyday cars. Thank God for that. I also felt I could more easily understand the cars in Forza (2). It was not the most fun game to play though. Still I need (like GT5P) more game time. I hope I get an Xbox and put it through the ring(er).

    GT5 though comes first right now, just it won’t be released first. So I think I’m going to borrow an Xbox360 and rent Forza. Competition is great, but respect is much more important.

  77. yanfloist

    Turn 10 is being really ignorant and cocky. they’ll get what they deserve in the end though. which is not surpassing Gran Tuismo 5.
    Kazunori Yamauchi responded really well. He is very modest like the great person he is already.
    Turn 10 doesn’t have what it takes to claim the baton – just look at how they are bashing PD already, they have no professionalism at all!! I am sure that this can also be seen in their finished product as well. Don’t talk the talk until you can walk the walk.
    Kazunori Yamauchi and his team will never have anything negative like that to say to Turn 10. You can see this in how Kazunori Yamauchi views Forza 3.
    Kazunori Yamauchi, Polyphony Digital, and the Gran Turismo series RULE!!!!

  78. Competion is always a good thing. It will push each developer to make his game even better then the others.

  79. Chad Sexington

    I like GT because it has more simulation-like physics, but makes concessions to the fact that you play it with a video game steering wheel, which loses a lot of the sensation of driving — it’s as realistic as the input device allows.

    I like Forza because it is much more arcadey and can be played with a pad, so if I just want a quick blast or want something lighter, it’s the perfect choice.

    However, I hate Turn 10’s attitude and it does my nut in when people call Forza a simulation, because it’s no more simulation than say PGR, it just pretends it is.

  80. @Jon I’m happy to disagree with you. I can’t play it, I can’t get my hands on it for god know’s how long. Despite it’s evident quality, of which I have no doubt, there isn’t very much solid about this game that I will experience for quite a while. Hmmm maybe liquidware??

  81. I guess this could go on forever, but I don’t see the hype on FM3, I played it and it was fun and all, but it got old, fast. And it felt exactly the same as FM2. That’s great he thinks he has the best game so far, but that should change in March. Granted Kaz needs to improve upon things that we would like to have, and see in the game to make it more user friendly for us, because otherwise it will be killed off by people looking for different aspects that aren’t being added.

    Dan is a bitch though, him and his team are competing with a guy that doesn’t care, acting like he’s won a war he is only fighting. He half asses FM3 and everyone acts like it’s the most ballin shit to have ever come out, but this isn’t 2007, put out a NEW game and quit acting like GT5 is going to be shitty in March

  82. Which developer do the car manufacturers (Ferrari/Toyota/Audi/Mercedes etc.) turn to for CG promo of their new models? Which company designed the R35 Nissan GT-R`s multi-function display? Who did Citroen work with for the `GT Concept`?

    Unlike Turn 10, POLYPHONY is more than a game developer now. Even though some might think of it as an unnecessary distraction….

  83. paskowitz

    Damn it. Their not there… uh.

  84. paskowitz

    The fuss is this. T10 (Forza dev) has presumptuously said that there game is the best… even though GT5 is not out yet and even though GT has set the standard for quality (maybe not features) in racing games for the last decade.

  85. Props to Kaz on his mature, professional outlook towards his competing game developers.

    And shame on you, Turn 10, for acting like a child. Boasting before you even deliver the final product. When the two finished games are compared and you win out, then you can brag. Until then, just give it up.

    And you say you’re a fan of PC simulators. Apparently you’ve never played iRacing, or even Live For Speed. I feel these are the two most realistic, physics-wise, of the genre. And we die-hard simulator fans care about physics. We drive simulators after all, we don’t just play games.

  86. @Chris GT1 was over 5 years in development as well.

    Calling GT5 vapourware is about as accurate as calling it blancmange.

  87. @neem’ I’m very sorry that I may not have used a textbook meaning of the word vapourware. The fact remains though that after 5 years development we are quite a ways off seeing a release of GT 5. I don’t recall them ever hitting a release date either, so really I’m expecting Q3 or Q4 next year for the Europe/America/Rest of World Release, at which point my copy of Forza 3 will be very well used.

    I am a massive Gran Turismo fan and am not hating on it or the developers by any means. My point was that I don’t even see what all this fuss is about when only one of these games is close to release. A war would indicate that there is two games on the verge of hitting shelves and that is simply not true. Like I said I will play the hell out GT5 when I can, but I’d say for the next 12 months all we have is the few sniffs of that game that they filter out through trailers.

  88. michael

    He doesn’t want to sound cocky….pah,yeah right. He really thinks he’s that much better that gran turismo? Gran turismo will always be on top….in my mind at least.

  89. CarBastard

    Sorry for the double comment but, ALBA:

    I really share your point of view :tup:.

  90. CarBastard

    “…in many ways he’s handing the baton to me. He probably doesn’t see it that way…”

    He doesn’t see it that way cuz it isn’t that way you big dork. Forza is a very good game, an awesome game, but for what i’ve seen of (and the time it has taken for…) GT5 I’m sure PD wont make a good game, they’ll make a piece of sheer gaming perfection.

  91. Patrick

    I will be collecting my 250 gb super elite forza bundle on friday and i think this will tie me over untill gran turismo 5 is released..

  92. RADracing

    Funny how he says, “So again, tremendous respect to him, but I’d say the differentiator is they’re old school.”

    You can’t really say that when Forza is still running on an older console that dosen’t even run on full 1080p and a wheel that does not have 900 deg. steering.

  93. GT: I can never quit playing when I pick it up. Forza: I could never bear to play.. and I tried. That’s just me, sorry Mr. Greenawalt.

  94. A major part of Microsoft’s console strategy seems to consist of publicly badmouthing the competition whether it be games or consoles and they seem to care very little about how stupid it makes them look, probably because there are a lot of very stupid people who lap it up. Attacking GT5 given it is nowhere near finished and has such an incredible pedigree is idiotic. I don’t think I was the only person who laughed out loud when Turn 10 announced on stage that Forza 3 will be ‘the definitive racing game of this generation’ lol

    I would bet everything I have that GT5 and GT6 (which I imagine we will also see in this gen) will rate higher and sell massively more than Forza 3 and if we strapped Dan Greenawalt to a lie detector I’m pretty sure he would say the same thing lol.

    @Chris

    ‘When GT5 proves itself to not be vapourware’

    Are you serious? Vapourware? Come back when you know what the term means.

  95. neem’

    Chris, according to wikipedia: “Vaporware is a term used to describe a product, usually software, that has been announced by a developer during or before its development and, therefore, may never actually be released”, so how exactly is GT5 vapourware?

    Also, I have no idea who this Greenwalt person is but he sounds like he’s lacking confidence hence why he’s talking him and his product up so much. Of course, anyone would be lacking confidence if they were up against the standard of PD’s work, but he has chosen his words quite carefully… Note how he said “but no game competes [with] us right now”, in the same way that nothing competed with the 360 for a while.

  96. I find Forza 3 to be a really great game but on the other hand I absolutely despite Dan’s attitude. American aggressive marketing strategy in full force against the passive Japanese one. I still prefer the second and let both games do the talking. In the end, the only thing that matter is that the end-user is having fun anyway :)

  97. Sam__ NY

    forza’s gotten to be more of a simulator,but GT still has the upper hand. If turn 10 studios put 1 or 2 more years development time into their forza games, they may be able to accomplish what GT has. I just go by the numbers.

    Forza 3- 400 cars, 22 tracks

    GT5- 950 cars, 2_ tracks

  98. oppylocky

    See, the thing that I do not like about Turn10/D.Greenwalt is that they are putting across that they have utmost respect for what PD/KY have given them, but when one of the guys started the whole trying to put down the opposition, what does that say about turn10? At least the japanese folk don’t get down and dirty. I have a whole lot of respect for Yamauchi.

  99. Brettjr25

    “it’s a race from which neither will emerge victorious” You should reword this a bit imo, I think to Yamauchi, he’ll emerge victorious if he puts out a game that he himself like. Where turn 10 will be happy if it gets better reviews or whatever they’re after.

    Anyway I’m not interested in Microsoft agenda or what they’re trying to do to defame them, if I owned a 360 I would see if Forza 3 is good and if it is I would buy it. But I don’t I own a PS3 so I’m going to see if GT5 is good and decide if I should buy it. That simple, all this stupid talk and forum trolling they’re doing is just silly.

  100. How can it be a war. Forza will be in my hands on Friday. That’s the luxury of owning both consoles. I can enjoy Forza 3, and probably will for 12 months or so before GT5 comes out, and when it does I can enjoy them both. I have been doing a lot of laps of the F3 demo, and it’s pretty good, am very looking forward to Friday.

    When GT5 proves itself to not be vapourware I will look forward to that as well and will play the hell out of it.


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