Current state of physics vs Forza 7. Which feels better?

[Mark folsom]

.

 

[Scaff]

Harder isn't more realistic, with a modicum of training getting a car close to the limit isn't hard. (and I am speaking from experience - twenty years in the Motor Industry, including time delivering vehicle dynamics and driver skills training).

The hard part is keeping it at the limit consistently.

Now to answer your question, neither of them are great in that regard.

If realism is your target on console head to either Assetto Corsa or Project Cars 2.

 

[Mark folsom]

.

 

[VBR]

Now to answer your question, neither of them are great in that regard.

I second that. If realism regarding physics is what you're primarily after @Mark folsom - avoid both Forza & Gran Turismo.

If realism is your target on console head to either Assetto Corsa or Project Cars 2.

In my opinion, Assetto is better as regards realism of physics & feeling of FFB through a wheel. Although, it's not much of a game unless you get the moddable PC version.

I also think PS4 is the better console, so my advice is to get one of them & then start trying out all available sims (which can be quite cheap pre-owned). So that's; P CARS 1 Game of The Year Edition, P CARS 2 Deluxe Edition, Assetto Corsa Ultimate Edition, & Gran Turismo Sport. Then, see which one you & your son like the most.

Are you thinking of getting a FFB wheel, & if so which one?

 

[Mark folsom]

I'll check out Assetto. Thanks.

 

[VBR]

I'll check out Assetto. Thanks.

All available sims have their pros & cons physics wise. And, what one we each end up personally liking the most oftentimes has little to do with perceived realism anyway.

 

[Gersicer]

As a paramedic and ex fireman i was also looking for the best realism possible. I spend most of my time on the road and wanted to recreate that feeling, at higher speeds, without the "real" dangers.

I didn't try Forza 7 but played a lot on Forza 6. Ended up selling my xbox and the steering wheel ...

For me anyway, gt is still a "game" but a fun one. Much better driving experience .... Against AI or online ...

Asseto Corsa for better realism ? Yep !!
But aside from a big rig with direct drive wheel, expensive pedals, on pc, i don't think you'll find something really close to reality. Can still have some fun anyway ... !!

Like it's been said, the best is to try which one suits you better.

My two cents ....

 

[Brzlav]

If it will be a console and no PC, for you I'd go PS4 as you can get a rather inexpensive VR set that way as well. GT is the only game out of those with VR support, but I think Dirt Rallye supports it as well.

If you want realism but realism means immersion for you also, VR is the way to go.

I'd also go for GT (driving less realistic, but good fun "game" overall and full lobbies) and Assetto (more or less a hotlap simulator, but better physics and better modelled tracks than PC2 imo).

 

[TokoTurismo]

GTS and Forza 7 are not hard to get into, and both make fun simulators not the other. The physics of both are simplistic, yet fair to the player, thus making them enjoyable for any age group.

The difference between the two is that FM7 is a CarRPG where collecting cars is necessary, whereas GTS is more on the esports side that focuses more on racing rather than collecting cars (despite the free cars that are being added).

In other words. I recommend them both to those who are a fan of racing/driving games, or cars in general.

 

[VBR]

...can a 5 year old drive the current state of GT Sport? Again, I have no experience with games. I do have a 5 yr old son, so there's a bit of me that wants him to experience it as well, but again, not too easy..

GT Sport has lots of driver assists that other sims don't have. This will make it very easy for your son to drive. Kind of like learning to ride a bike with stabilizers on, & then taking them off. I think your son will probably find GTS with all assists on drivable, & still a lot of fun. For you, turning all assists off will give you a more realistic experience.

For a discussion about GT Sports latest physics update, have a read of this: https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/threads/the-updated-physics-thread-1-32.384822/


👍

 

[Mark folsom]

Good stuff thanks everyone.

 

[VBR]

Good stuff thanks everyone.

You're welcome. By the way, it's important to know if you intend to play with a FFB wheel, or the DualShock 4 controller/joypad that comes with the PS4. GT Sport feels great with a DS4, & it's very easy to drive the cars with it, but, games like P CARS & Assetto can be very difficult when using the pad. More food for thought...

 

[Sven Jurgens]

You're welcome. By the way, it's important to know if you intend to play with a FFB wheel, or the DualShock 4 controller/joypad that comes with the PS4. GT Sport feels great with a DS4, & it's very easy to drive the cars with it, but, games like P CARS & Assetto can be very difficult when using the pad. More food for thought...

Indeed. Project cars is playable with a controller yet I had to tune the controller settings almost per car to make it drive-able. They give you all the options to tune, however I could never get it to feel quite right. Playable, just not all that enjoyable. I have not tried Assetto Corsa as I heard the same things about it when it comes to playing with a DS4.

If you want realism, get a wheel, Oculus Rift or Vive and PC2 and Assetto Corsa. If you want the feeling of a high speed chase through dangerous traffic, stick with GTS and do no qualifying sport mode races

 

[SlipZtrEm]

And a bit more clarification. I hear that a 5 year old can drive Forza 7.. can a 5 year old drive the current state of GT Sport?

Again, I have no experience with games. I do have a 5 yr old son, so theres a bit of me that wants him to experience it as well, but again, not too easy..

There was a video floating around not too many years ago with a very young kid — I believe younger than five — playing GT6. GTS' physics are quite similar, so yeah, I'd say it's just as possible with it.

Crucially, both games offer plenty of (driver-selectable) assists for young folks or those unfamiliar with driving to ease in. When I met my current girlfriend, she had zero racing game experience, but wanted to drive her car at the time (an '07 Yaris) around the Top Gear Test Track. She did it in FM4, first with pretty much every assist on, and slowly weening off until it was only ABS. She had fun.

Both games are right at the top of the genre in terms of controller implementation, which I'm guessing is important, unless you're planning on dropping another console's worth of cash on a wheel. I'll echo what others have said about difficulty not necessarily meaning realism too — although funnily enough, Assetto Corsa is incredibly difficult on a pad, and is more realistic than both, but that's not really the point.

GT and FM hit a nice medium ground between realism and approachability. GT's available experiences in terms of car variety are narrower than Forza's, though: there's about 100 road cars, most of which are modern, and a lot of race cars divvied up into a few classes. Rally is bunk — but at least it has it, unlike Forza. Forza counters with the best car list this generation, including the classic Crown Vic Interceptor.

IMO, the main issue with GT is the negligible effect weight transfer seems to have on cars. You get a definite sense of heft with Forza's, in comparison. But the main issue with Forza is a propensity for oversteer, and lighting the tires up in corners.

Forza is now available on PC, alongside all the most realistic sims (rFactor 2, Assetto Corsa (Competizione), RaceRoom Racing Experience, iRacing), as well as on Xbox. GT Sport is a PS4 exclusive. In the racing genre, I'd say Xbox is the better pick: you have the choice between Forza and GT in terms of exclusives, but everything else is shared, and Xbox has the really quite fantastic escapism of the arcade-oriented open-world Forza Horizon 4 — PS4's only sort-of answer to that is the much-loved (but not exactly comparable) DriveClub. Of course, if you're looking at maybe exploring other genres, well, the PS4 has a huge advantage in terms of blockbuster exclusives... though the Xbox ecosystem has backwards compatibility, opening up the option of hundreds of previous-gen games, a good chunk of which come with updated visuals.

Hope that all helps!

 

[Mark folsom]

Sure does!

You mention the issue with weight transfer in regard to GTS.. inertia seems to be something I focus in on when watching the comparison videos between all the racers. It seems as if Forza cars are overweight, as the chassis seems to shift around noticeably, whereas GTS seems more stable.

But is this from Forza being "heavy" or "light"? Visually it looks pleasing, but I realize this isn't accurate for cars that have good suspension systems.

 

[SlipZtrEm]

Sure does!

You mention the issue with weight transfer in regard to GTS.. inertia seems to be something I focus in on when watching the comparison videos between all the racers. It seems as if Forza cars are overweight, as the chassis seems to shift around noticeably, whereas GTS seems more stable.

But is this from Forza being "heavy" or "light"? Visually it looks pleasing, but I realize this isn't accurate for cars that have good suspension systems.

It depends on the car, really. GTS is indeed more stable, which was actually one of my criticisms at launch in the GTPlanet review: cars feel like they're sort of floating over the surface because there's so little suspension movement. Road cars are better in this regard, IMO. There's also something very unusual about ABS in GTS where it acts as a sort of traction/stability control, which people much more well-versed than me in the matter discuss in other threads.

I know you said you've tested some of the force's cars on track, so you've probably seen just how much lean a road car is capable of when pushed to its limits. It's pretty surprising even with the higher-end stuff: I've ridden along in a 911 GT3 RS on track at Porsche's Silverstone test track, and watching laps from outside the car, even that leans when the driver is giving it the beans.

Down in the realm of more mortal metal, I compared the Veloster Turbo in real life to FM7. Like any driving game, it's no replacement for the real thing, but it's surprisingly good at capturing the general attitude of the car. The closest I've got to something like that in GTS is the afore-mentioned ride-along in the GT3 RS: at low speeds it's wildly oversteery and wayward in both games, yet that was not the impression I got from the (admittedly, professional) driver at Silverstone.

 

[bduddy]

I don't get the comparisons to 5-year-olds, there are 5-year-olds that do all sorts of things, including driving karts, which are probably harder to drive well than most of the cars simulated in Forza and GTS...

 

[Veinz]

Hard to say which is more realistic, they both have strong and weak points. For me GTS is better at weight transfer but FM7 is better when it comes to tires. Harder doesn’t necessarily mean more realistic either though. I find the GT3s in Assetto Corsa easier to drive than their Group 3 counterparts in GTS.

 

[Zeitoss]

I am very interested in this topic as well.

The first big question to pose is how you will play these games.

If you go with a wheel, it comes down to the different FFBs (how the force feedback is implemented in every game).
From what I hear and read on many websites, AC has probably the most advanced FFB among the console games (AC, PC1, PC2, GTS, F7). I don't know the status of other PC games.

If you go with the controller, then I would say that GTS and F7 are the two best candidates, as they have been developed with also controller in mind and they can be used smoothly with the controller "out of the box".

I am playing both AC / PC2 / GTS with a controller, and honestly GTS gets the job very well done, with a superb handling.
PC2 has by far the worst controller implementation, and AC gets it fairly done. Both of them still need tweaking to get the handling acceptable, and none of them gives this wonderful handling feeling that GTS provides.

Using a controller, GTS is not that different from AC in terms of simulation recreated on screen, what GTS could definetely improve is the weight transfer (especially on high speed bends), the heavy breaking phases, and in general simulating the behaviour of suspensions and the small tarmac variations.

Currently the cars behave too flat and planted.

 

[Zeitoss]

Hard to say which is more realistic, they both have strong and weak points. For me GTS is better at weight transfer but FM7 is better when it comes to tires. Harder doesn’t necessarily mean more realistic either though. I find the GT3s in Assetto Corsa easier to drive than their Group 3 counterparts in GTS.

But I can feel much more the weight and its implications on AC than in GTS, even with a controller.

 

[Groundfish]

I recommend GTS. There’s a reason it’s the leader. Never played Forza. Next I would get Dirt Rally, finally round it out with ASSETTO. Those are all good.
I recommend getting a good wheel with ffb.
GTS has a nice balance to it and is polished. AC is more challenging. So is Dirt Rally but it’s awesome.
Regarding physics and stuff you just have to buy them and see for yourself.
My playtime in GTS is around 17 days total right now (24 hours x 17). I haven’t come close to mastery by any stretch. I play the others for variety.
GTS is my favorite by far.

 

[phil_75]

Sounds like Forza Horizon 4 might be the game you are looking for.

 

[TonyJZX]

I feel like there's two comparisons here....

Forza 7 vs GT Sport on their respective controllers.

This comes down to your perception of the cues that the game gives you by the screen and the controller.

For me, GT Sport tells me more information by screen and controller and it feels like a more complete driving experience.

Prior to say Oct. 2017 I would say Forza 7 held the crown but there's just something that GT Sport does better.

I feel like in Forza the cars all kind of weigh the same and worse, the weight doesnt feel like it changes btw. cars.

I also feel like in Forza, the cars seems to be skating on a surface that's not quite road.

I also feel that Forza has gotten worse. I feel like the model from F5 -> F6 -> F7 has gotten worse or 'simpler'.

I feel like Forza 6 and GT6 are pretty on par with Forza just nudging ahead HOWEVER saying that the GT6 model I do quite enjoy.

Now to be fair, Forza on the G920 vs GTS on the G29? I've only used the G29 and I was preparing for the worst but its quite ok for the money.

 

[Scaff]

I am very interested in this topic as well.

The first big question to pose is how you will play these games.

If you go with a wheel, it comes down to the different FFBs (how the force feedback is implemented in every game).
From what I hear and read on many websites, AC has probably the most advanced FFB among the console games (AC, PC1, PC2, GTS, F7). I don't know the status of other PC games.

If you go with the controller, then I would say that GTS and F7 are the two best candidates, as they have been developed with also controller in mind and they can be used smoothly with the controller "out of the box".

I am playing both AC / PC2 / GTS with a controller, and honestly GTS gets the job very well done, with a superb handling.
PC2 has by far the worst controller implementation, and AC gets it fairly done. Both of them still need tweaking to get the handling acceptable, and none of them gives this wonderful handling feeling that GTS provides.

Using a controller, GTS is not that different from AC in terms of simulation recreated on screen, what GTS could definetely improve is the weight transfer (especially on high speed bends), the heavy breaking phases, and in general simulating the behaviour of suspensions and the small tarmac variations.

Currently the cars behave too flat and planted.

You seem to be mixing up physics with input assistance.

The physics of AC doesn't change if you use a controller instead of a wheel, the same with any title.

The reason why GTS and Forza feel better with a controller is that they add in a lot of controller specific aids when you use one.

As such the simulation in GTS is still as far away from AC with a controller as it is with a wheel.

I recommend GTS. There’s a reason it’s the leader.

Because it has consistently had the largest marketing budget and looks very shiny?

 

[zorrofox]

I've never played Forza 7 but it's worth noting that GT Sport is the only racing game to use the 6-axis motion sensor available in the controller. Not as good as a real wheel & pedals, obviously, but more accurate than just using the analogue stick. Just a thought.

 

[Zeitoss]

You seem to be mixing up physics with input assistance.

The physics of AC doesn't change if you use a controller instead of a wheel, the same with any title.

The reason why GTS and Forza feel better with a controller is that they add in a lot of controller specific aids when you use one.

As such the simulation in GTS is still as far away from AC with a controller as it is with a wheel.


Because it has consistently had the largest marketing budget and looks very shiny?

Sorry, but where did I say that physics change?
I have actually said that the games need to be considered differently depending on the input method the user is going to adopt.

Maybe I was not clear enough (or you did not read carefully) but I said that with controller the level of simulation recreated on screen is not very different, and the reason is that with the controller, in both AC and PC2 the car behaviour feels disjointed from the player inputs (which is normal because they are designed with the wheel in mind), while GTS (and Forza I guess) creates a seamless connection between what happens on screen and player's inputs (and vice-versa).
This is objectively true, unless someone posts here evidence of controller settings for AC which guarantee a smooth and fluid handling for all cars at all speeds.

 

[Scaff]

Sorry, but where did I say that physics change?
I have actually said that the games need to be considered differently depending on the input method the user is going to adopt.

Maybe I was not clear enough (or you did not read carefully) but I said that with controller the level of simulation recreated on screen is not very different, and the reason is that with the controller, in both AC and PC2 the car behaviour feels disjointed from the player inputs (which is normal because they are designed with the wheel in mind), while GTS (and Forza I guess) creates a seamless connection between what happens on screen and player's inputs (and vice-versa).
This is objectively true, unless someone posts here evidence of controller settings for AC which guarantee a smooth and fluid handling for all cars at all speeds.

When you used the term simulation, the simulation element is the physics engine. The controller is the input system and the output is the visual, audio and tactile feedback.

Please keep in mind that the different title make it easier or harder to be smooth with the input, but that does not mean it can't be done on the likes of AC and Pc2.

 

[Groundfish]

@Scaff

I didn’t recommend GTS because of its marketing budget. That does not involve the experience of playing the game. I made that recommendation based on accessibility. It’s an accessible title (also a great screen saver with good music)
I was in the same position as the op when I decided to start playing modern race games. about a year or so ago. Tbh it’s taken me 24x17 hours to become mediocre compared to people that have been in the genre for years.
I mean you have tracks to learn, ffb to interpret, there’s a lot to learn to get into racing games on wheel and that’s without adding in car setup and complicated ffb setting and downloading wheel drivers and setting up your rig. Out of the box GTS you drive the same setup cars that are capable of the best times in the game.
On controller again GTS and I guess Forza have built in controller assist which again provides accessibility,
A title like ASSETTO or PC or PC2 is more niche. I’d say for a first title those are going to be an uphill climb for almost anyone.
Also as of yet GTS doesn’t like ASSETTO show you a menu with a cool race or drive experience you’d like to have then wait until you click on it to tell you it’s not available unless you purchase it. That irks me about AC.
I really liked your comment that finding the limit isn’t hard but driving it is. Ross Bentley himself would echo your sentiment for sure.

 

[Scaff]

@Scaff

I didn’t recommend GTS because of its marketing budget. That does not involve the experience of playing the game. I made that recommendation based on accessibility. It’s an accessible title (also a great screen saver with good music)
I was in the same position as the op when I decided to start playing modern race games. about a year or so ago. Tbh it’s taken me 24x17 hours to become mediocre compared to people that have been in the genre for years.
I mean you have tracks to learn, ffb to interpret, there’s a lot to learn to get into racing games on wheel and that’s without adding in car setup and complicated ffb setting and downloading wheel drivers and setting up your rig. Out of the box GTS you drive the same setup cars that are capable of the best times in the game.
On controller again GTS and I guess Forza have built in controller assist which again provides accessibility,
A title like ASSETTO or PC or PC2 is more niche. I’d say for a first title those are going to be an uphill climb for almost anyone.
Also as of yet GTS doesn’t like ASSETTO show you a menu with a cool race or drive experience you’d like to have then wait until you click on it to tell you it’s not available unless you purchase it. That irks me about AC.
I really liked your comment that finding the limit isn’t hard but driving it is. Ross Bentley himself would echo your sentiment for sure.

I was being a bit cheecky, sorry if it didn't come across in that way.

 

[Mark folsom]

For the record, I'll be using the controller. Maybe a wheel someday.

Anyway, I've made some observations solely through watching tons of videos of both Forza and GTS. Perhaps subconsciously I came here to reaffirm my observations, so here they are..

-Cars do roll and have inertia, but Forza seems overdone. The only car that did what most cars do in Forza was the chevy caprice we drove back in the 90's. Even with stiff suspension it rolled like a limousine. Most recently, the Ford CV interceptors did not have excessive roll.

-GTS looks right in how the car moves and takes hard corners.

-Speed sensation seems way too fast in Forza. Unless you're driving by looking through the front camera video system, which then, it's very accurate. GTS appears to have speed sensation spot on. When we watch our pursuit videos, we are always like, how fast were you driving here.. like 150mph? In reality it may be 100mph. Videos do that.

-I started watching cockpit cam videos of Forza and GTS to the point of excess, with the goal of seeing which one I got tired of first. It didn't take very long to become bored watching Forza. It seems as though every car handled similarly, and driver's actions were monotonous.

-OTOH, I can keep watching GTS videos. Not sure what it is, I guess I feel like I'm there in the seat with the driver. Driving seems smooth yet alive. I can say, yes that's how it looks. It's somewhat addictive.

So, I'm probably going to go with GTS. And PS4 Pro. Thanks all.