GT5 Sound Thread

[Nielsen]

That's your zones, again. It could be possible to use a "canned" convolution method, that blends between zones - this could actually be based on the actual space on the circuit (the link is just an example of such software, this one funnily enough doesn't use convolution). But now we're talking about memory usage again, on top of some hefty CPU time.
Crackdown appears to use a combination of zoned effects and simple multi-tapped (from raytracing) convolution.

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The "problem" with using flat-response mics is that almost no-one has an audio system with a flat response. That's why I mentioned calibrating an EQ based on recorded information (e.g. using the PSEye). Not perfect, but a step in the right direction.

As far as DSP was concerned, I was really talking in general - given that all games nowadays operate in a digital environment, analogue devices are a bit of a nuisance for creating effects (in games)

And yes, I've heard the discontinuities in the ambient loops - only when mincing around and not actually racing, though. Still, it doesn't excuse it.

I get the impression that you have some insight (which I don't btw.). I just don't understand, if they can make sound effects in tunnels which don't seem to affect the CPU (even the older generation of gaming consoles could handle that), why wouldn't they be able to add similar effects like the one I suggested without reaching memory or CPU limits on the PS3? GT5 is said to push the PS3 to its limits and I don't know if GT4 pushed the PS2 to a maximum. I also noticed the "tunnel-effect" in GT5 Prologue so I would also expect it to be in GT5. Why would a similar effect be the thing that sinks the ship in GT5?

I may have missed your point.

 

[Griffith500]

I get the impression that you have some insight (which I don't btw.). I just don't understand, if they can make sound effects in tunnels which don't seem to affect the CPU (even the older generation of gaming consoles could handle that), why wouldn't they be able to add similar effects like the one I suggested without reaching memory or CPU limits on the PS3? GT5 is said to push the PS3 to its limits and I don't know if GT4 pushed the PS2 to a maximum. I also noticed the "tunnel-effect" in GT5 Prologue so I would also expect it to be in GT5. Why would a similar effect be the thing that sinks the ship in GT5?

I may have missed your point.

No, I think I missed your point!

The reason even older games had reverb effects is because they were performed in hardware by the sound chip. Unfortunately, the sound chip knows nothing about the environment, so you just tell it to use a preset - these presets are typically "short", so you don't get the long delays associated with large environments. Typically, the presets are for indoor spaces up to the size of a Cathedral, or similarly short-delay outdoor presets. The length of the reverb is limited by many factors, usually the power of the sound chip and the memory allocated to it (dedicated, or otherwise).

Recent advancements (in PC games at least) have allowed for more complex use of blended presets and even some occlusion, simple reflections etc. all on hardware, with minimal impact on the CPU (unless you don't have a dedicated soundcard that supports these features.) Long, environmental delays are still rare (outside of canned sound effects e.g. gunfire.)

What I was suggesting in my previous posts is also well beyond the scope of typical, current sound hardware (though I confess to know nothing about what the sound chip on the PS3 can do).
Thankfully, this situation is beginning to turn around. I expect the next generation of consoles should offer some nice solutions to environmental sound (i.e. "reverb", distance delay, object occlusion, atmospheric scattering and decay etc.) GT5 offers some of this already, only it still uses reverb presets and doesn't occlude the sounds.

My knowledge was gained from little projects I've tried, and a smattering of research on the subject; I'm probably well behind the average sound designer in the games industry, let alone the academic stuff. I'm a rank amateur
Which means, GT5 may well have what you are referring to; at what cost, though, will remain to be seen.

 

[Smoke&Slide]

This British Warble he's on about, that will be the cams that he's talking of.That Jag engine, is a quad cam v12.Also uses XK cylinder heads & a common crank case.Lucas mechanical fuel injection too & something else.

 

[Nielsen]

No, I think I missed your point!

The reason even older games had reverb effects is because they were performed in hardware by the sound chip. Unfortunately, the sound chip knows nothing about the environment, so you just tell it to use a preset - these presets are typically "short", so you don't get the long delays associated with large environments. Typically, the presets are for indoor spaces up to the size of a Cathedral, or similarly short-delay outdoor presets. The length of the reverb is limited by many factors, usually the power of the sound chip and the memory allocated to it (dedicated, or otherwise).

Recent advancements (in PC games at least) have allowed for more complex use of blended presets and even some occlusion, simple reflections etc. all on hardware, with minimal impact on the CPU (unless you don't have a dedicated soundcard that supports these features.) Long, environmental delays are still rare (outside of canned sound effects e.g. gunfire.)

What I was suggesting in my previous posts is also well beyond the scope of typical, current sound hardware (though I confess to know nothing about what the sound chip on the PS3 can do).
Thankfully, this situation is beginning to turn around. I expect the next generation of consoles should offer some nice solutions to environmental sound (i.e. "reverb", distance delay, object occlusion, atmospheric scattering and decay etc.) GT5 offers some of this already, only it still uses reverb presets and doesn't occlude the sounds.

My knowledge was gained from little projects I've tried, and a smattering of research on the subject; I'm probably well behind the average sound designer in the games industry, let alone the academic stuff. I'm a rank amateur
Which means, GT5 may well have what you are referring to; at what cost, though, will remain to be seen.

Thanks for describing the difference. At least, we can hope that the PS3 is capable of doing it without affecting performance considerably. After all, this game promises to bring graphics which are quite impressive on this generation of consoles so who knows what else it can do.

 

[Griffith500]

Thanks for describing the difference. At least, we can hope that the PS3 is capable of doing it without affecting performance considerably. After all, this game promises to bring graphics which are quite impressive on this generation of consoles so who knows what else it can do.

I just did a bit of digging and it seems the entirety of the PS3's sound is handled by the Cell's SPEs. This means it's one hell of a balancing act between physics, sound, graphics, AI etc.

This also means it's not limited to canned effects...

 

[CoolColJ]

This is what supercars and race cars sound like.
Its not because of Youtube quality or my camera or compression or any other excuse thats been used. The only difference between the sounds in the video and real life is volume!

And yet here is a Mclaren F1 sounding rather docile, no in your face distortion, no spluttering, no crackles, nor bangs and pops. It just sounds like my last car with and induction rampod. Kinda like that Gamescom M5 posted earlier

 

[Smoke&Slide]

^^ That'll be because the engine, is upto normal temps & is EFI .

 

[Griffith500]

And yet here is a Mclaren F1 sounding rather docile, no in your face distortion, no spluttering, no crackles, nor bangs and pops. It just sounds like my last car with and induction rampod. Kinda like that Gamescom M5 posted earlier

That's a cool video, but take note of the weather; water vapour has a massive effect on the transmission of sound - mist probably even more so.

I'd say the McLaren F1 is a good example of British understatement
Nice intake sound (a BMW strong-point); it had better not be missing in GT5...

Was your last car a straight 6 or a V12?

 

[Smoke&Slide]

If you're talking to me Griff, i had a flat four Scooby 555.

 

[CoolColJ]

Was your last car a straight 6 or a V12?

My last car had a 1.6L inline 4 that loved to rev
But it had an intake sound to die for when I fitted a metal Unifilter rampod in place of the factory airbox, which acts like a megaphone and had a resonant mettalic scream! It didn't make much sound until you nailed it past 50% throttle then a growly loud, metallic yowl can be heard - so addictive!
No booms or drones like in other cars or like with an exhaust

 

[XEPEGTP]

This British Warble he's on about, that will be the cams that he's talking of.That Jag engine, is a quad cam v12.Also uses XK cylinder heads & a common crank case.Lucas mechanical fuel injection too & something else.

Thank you! That must be it.

 

[Smoke&Slide]

You're welcome .

 

[CoolColJ]

Here is the fixed up audio version of Alba's Nascar vid. One thing we don't hear in this vid, which I heard at E3, is the throttle blipping sound just off idle, it sounds really nice and grunty!!



Some real life drivebys at a Nascar test. When the GT5 version hits the upper revs it sounds somewhat similar. Still missing the transmission whine that was heard in the E3 demo.

Looks a bit like a video game

 

[Bekimche]

McLaren F1 sounds incredible from inside the car. Drool...

 

[CoolColJ]

Some other games to compare. They all sound different

Nascar 09 - very short loops, static sounding


Forza 3


iRacing

 

[Denur]

Here is the fixed up audio version of Alba's Nascar vid. One thing we don't hear in this vid, which I heard at E3, is the throttle blipping sound just off idle, it sounds really nice and grunty!!

Thanks for that CoolColJ. Is that the same version as Jordan put on the news page? 👍

 

[CoolColJ]

Thanks for that CoolColJ. Is that the same version as Jordan put on the news page? 👍

No, this one has my fixed up audio, to remove the phase issues in the one Jordan posted

 

[Strittan]

Wow, the GT5 NASCAR sounds suck.

Sounds ok in high revs, but not good. iRacing on the other hand sounds awesome!

 

[dan0h]

Wow, so we can conclude that the sounds in GT5 are just as janky as the 20% interior completion ratio. Nice one KY, its a legend fail. The Supra GT car sounds more like a rotary.

 

[Spagetti69]

Hi DanOh, must catch up mate, you coming back to the dark side?

 

[Viperman240]

Why is it from all the videos I have seen, idle and low rev's the car sound awesome, but as the rev goes higher...it loses it and then it just sounds so.... synthetic, best way I can describe it.

 

[Griffith500]

Wow, the GT5 NASCAR sounds suck.

Sounds ok in high revs, but not good. iRacing on the other hand sounds awesome!

iRacing is the best of the bunch for sure.
It doesn't sound like the one in GT5 is revving past 5k or so! Cross-plane V8s take on a whole new level of meanness above 8k
Forza's sounds like a single cylinder at times!

 

[mr_VOLCANO]

Sounds in Gt5 is a huge improvement from gt5p. Though not on par with graphics. But making true to life sounds for 1000 cars is no easy task, and i think pd have a good reason to make the sounds the way they are.

 

[RedBaron]

Why is it from all the videos I have seen, idle and low rev's the car sound awesome, but as the rev goes higher...it loses it and then it just sounds so.... synthetic, best way I can describe it.

Because they are using barely three samples for whole engine range. One for idle, then one from 2k rpm and one from 4k rpm. Audio engine blends them gradually as you rev the engine in the game. But mechanical complexity of real engine, accessories and exhaust produces so much different and distinctive sound in every rpm range so this is simply not sufficient method to replicate the real sound and therefore can be immediately heard as fake sound, especially if you fasten that 4k rpm sample into 8k or similar engine speed. If they use more samples throughout the revs, engine sound would be almost perfect, especially if they use the correct sample for highest revs under full load - really meaty sound. There is no synthetiser as someone thinks, only old good samples able to do their work well. But there are too few of them, they are very miserably used and probably miserably recorded too. That's the Achilles' heel of GT engine sound and only painful and careful rerecording and using of for example 800 - 1600 - 3200 - 4800 - 6000 - 8000 rpm samples could make the engines in the game sound properly. There should be variation between cruising samples and full throttle samples as well. Then it will be perfect.

 

[CoolColJ]

My last car had a 1.6L inline 4 that loved to rev
But it had an intake sound to die for when I fitted a metal Unifilter rampod in place of the factory airbox, which acts like a megaphone and had a resonant mettalic scream! It didn't make much sound until you nailed it past 50% throttle then a growly loud, metallic yowl can be heard - so addictive!
No booms or drones like in other cars or like with an exhaust

Here is a non turbo 300zx with a Unifilter - note that mettalic rasping sound, which is pretty damn loud and amplifed in person, thanks to the rampod shape. I found the sound quite sensitive to filter types. The sponge type it uses sound the best vs the paper K&N type which muffles it a bit more. Pity intake mods won't be in GT5...



NSX with the same


This is one reason why I think GT5 won't make heavy use of samples and go more the synth route, how would you make the sounds change with each mod you make in the induction and exhaust? Not very well with samples

 

[RedBaron]

This is one reason why I think GT5 won't make heavy use of samples and go more the synth route, how would you make the sounds change with each mod you make in the induction and exhaust? Not very well with samples

The only proper way to do that is to record another set of samples of engine with various modifications. Good old times for PD's sound engineers really ended now, their work should be done with the same accuracy like 3D modellers of premium cars. I can understand this is their very worst nightmare because the first class game of today should sound really good, almost like in reality. They can't use those thousand times heard samples commonly used for many of those 1000 cars anymore. Today players and game journalists would punish them for that.

They could develop their own synthetiser, probably learning from real engine sounds. But I haven't heard anything close to real engine, especially in higher rpm's. And the situation would be the same again.

 

[speedfreak69]

Well, comparing to some other sounds from gamescom, nascar isn't even that bad, but it's certainly missing the nuances of that beastly V8 engine...
Regarding synthesized sounds, as Griff can probably tell you better, there's no horsepower to make a really good one in real time...too much calculations. Basically, right now, we're limited to samples, but that isn't a bad thing in itself(as we heard from some great sounds in PGR/NFS/Forza). It's just that there must be a 3 set of samples for every thousand RPM from idle to the red line. That's with full gas, 50% gas and 0% gas(overrun). If those were properly recorded and mixed, that would be a great sound(of course you have to have additional few layers for transmission whine, road noise, turbo hiss, blow-off valves,etc). PD's 3 samples per whole rpm range is so 90's...out of the most recent sounds, you can hear this best in the Jag vid, as the rpms rise, it becomes more and more artificial, as the too low rpm sample is pitch shifted waaay too much to be convincing...sad.

p.s. I like that window net flapping in the wind in nascar 09.

 

[Smoke&Slide]

The WRX STI don't sound anything like, how that flat four should be.I bought, a 95 N reg imported STI 555 4 door with a straight through, HKS full system & modified exhaust manifolds.Plus a green air filter & dump valve, i was thinking about remapping it but wasn't used enough.Anyway you could hear it, from at least 3/4 of a mile away & not at full throttle sometimes.That is the 2.0ltr boxer 4 cyl, red top engine.

S&S.

 

[Sturdy]

(I believe that) Live For Speed uses a system whereby they have basically the sound of one cylinder firing synthesised, which is then adjusted based on the various engine parameters etc. Then of course depending on how many cylinders and the RPM, you get your engine note.

Given it's only really done by 1 bloke, it works surprisingly well. It's by no means perfect across the board, but the engine's do have a bit of character, and I can't help but imagine a group of engineers at PD could take this idea and really make something special out of it.

 

[DoctorFouad]

Hi everyone,

Can someone kind and with enough knowledge about this subject, please answer those questions ?

1/ I dont understand how video games sound designers record the sound of engines and than how those sounds are transmitted to the game ?
is there different methods to do those things ? or basically everyone uses the same method ?

2/ I dont understand why the cars in some racing games sound more real life and better than cars in GT5 prologue ? with the huge budget affected to GT5 (80 million $) and huge time (6 years already) arent sound designers at polyphony digital capable of doing the same ? are sound designers at polyphony not as competent as sound designers in other companies ?

how it come that a game with an average budget developed in only 2 years (PGR4) has better sound effects than a game with an astonishing budget developed in 6 years ?!!!!!!!! I just dont understand.

3/ is there any improvement in the method used by polyphony to record sounds from premium cars compared to the sound of GT4 ?