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Discussion in 'Gran Turismo 7' started by Shingo_civic, Mar 12, 2020.
This is just simply not true at all
Yeah i also don't expect ACC complexity of physics but at least to close the gap by a bit especially on those areas that you mentioned (Better FFB,tire model and underbody downforce) ,with the vast car roster of GT series they simply cannot put the same attention to every single car ,they simply don't have the time for that i think
Gonna play devil's advocate here for a minute: I don't think PD is even capable of coding super-realistic physics models, they've always been somewhere between sim & simcade. Some of the back & forth between different physics in GT Sport over the years has resulted in cars that are harder to drive on the edge in-game than in reality. AC & P CARS, as well as many other sims, suffer from a similar problem where the cars behave unrealistically on the edge of grip, being too easy to spin or to recover from slides (ice physics). GT games have always been more forgiving on the limit, & that has allowed for better online racing as a result. I'd prefer to keep the kinds of physics we have in GT games like GT6 & GT Sports current model if it means better racing with a bit of unintentional bumping & nudging that doesn't result in instant death like in other games.
The truth of the matter is that without players a game doesn’t amount to much.
You can have a game in which the developers cater to a small minority of the overall gaming community who run high dollar sim gear and have more time into racing games than most, but let’s face it very few people wake up one day and say you know I’m tired of pretend murdering people in my game I want to sim race.
GTS has the players.
Literally if they put more resources into the ALMOST NON FUNCTIONAL pen system they would be almost unstoppable in the let’s call it mainstream console online racing genre.
If they can develop the amazing lighting pretty sure they could develop a better pen system.
IMAGINE GTS online with say 80 percent plus accuracy of pens...
Maybe even specific accurate video explanations of SPECIFIC dos and donts of overtaking and racing.
Of course I answered yes in the poll, it’s basically asking would you like your sim to be better...
If I were in charge of the game though I would invest more of the budget in the pen system.
The racing game with the best pen system will be a large draw for all who race and newer racers would benefit tremendously from more specific explanations.
As it is they can’t give specifics, because the penalty system isn’t a reliable indicator of driver wrongdoing.
But, to my first point, they have the players, I know for myself I have better things to do than have to wait around in a game with few players for a race...
Pen system number one.
Physics is pretty good for the purpose of online. The depth is readily apparent by comparing what’s possible time wise to what most who play can achieve. Even among aliens there’s Uber aliens, but average players can still play...
Imagine how much better the game would be if it almost always doled put penalties correctly, thus rendering barging diving punting etc more or less obsolete.
PD IMO would get more return on investment than spending more catering to the ‘niche within a niche’ people.
FIX THE DANG PEN SYSTEM
People keep saying this and I haven't figured out why still to date. Project Cars 2 has dynamic track surface with dynamic time that can get wet, show a wet line, then when drying, show a drying racing line, perform different levels of grip, build puddles that interact with a car on top of that make it snow with snow building on the ground and exude that level of physics all while maintaining a completely acceptable level of graphical detail. On top of all that, fully adjustable setups for cars and a FFB that GTS can't even begin to compare with. If anything, marvel on PC2 and continue asking why GTS just didn't and can't deliver.
GTS bought into graphical splendor and basically that alone. You wanted something "pretty", you got it. You wanted something that drives well? You didn't get it.
In my opinion it should stay simcade but lots of things like tyre model , aerodynamics etc need to be improved a lot .
The physics of GT sport are fine for me, but I do hope they fix a better FFB.
Better physics would be nice, especially tyremodel, but I think the FFB makes a lot of the "physics" in other games. And that has nothing to do with "realism" as its about immersion and responsivenes. Realistic FFB would be dull in a game.
Well he's not wrong.
PD must prove there "The Real Driving Simulator" compared to Asseto etc.
I don't know much about real racing physics but sometimes GT Sport feels like arcade.
I pretty much would go for yes, obviously a better implementation of force feedback (better surface detailing), and more improved tire model (tire pressure, tire wear, tire temperature and grip levels).
Ofcourse other things such as aerodynamics and suspension work should also be improved.
On a side note: as physics get improved I hope things such as manual shifting + clutch also get improved along the way (through some updates and so on).
For the less hardcore fans they can have their different assist levels implemented if the game is TOO realistic.
This is actually a tough question.
As far as vehicular physics, GT Sport isn't awful. I personally feel it suffers most from forward to rear weight transfer. So that could use an improvement for sure.
Dynamic tire modeling relates to physics, and I feel that needs a big improvement. I think that's why they have teamed with Michelin for data. Tire wear, flex, heat, and pressure, could all use improvements in my opinion. Racing is all about traction. This is where GT Sport simplifies their game into "Simcade"- by having set tire pressures for all cars.
Now, the fact that racers can't use clutches or H-shifters in Sport Races, especially for cars that were originally manufactured that way - well - that's just sad. Don't call your game the "real driving simulator" if you can't simulate the driving experience of the actual cars you're having people race. Technically, that's not a physics issue, even though I'd like to "physically" push in the clutch and shift a lever into gear.
When I see a Sport Race with a thirty year old car, I get excited to race it. And then I remember I'll have to use paddles to shift. I then just shake my head at what a failure that part of the game is.
Nothing personal but i see people saying that all the time and i can't understand why do they take a marketing slogan so literally ? .
Now that PD are in partnership with the FIA I think this relationship will be a far bigger priority for PD than game physics. The usual marketing blah blah blah will be released saying how they've done this, changed that, blah blah blah, but the overall situation is still reminiscent of what we had with GT5.
Besides, what's the point in better 'physics' if PD are going to tinker with them continuously throughout the game's lifespan, sometimes reversing what they've previously implemented.
What's the point if there's no continuity between a race at a certain time of day at the same track whether you're playing single player, time trial or racing in online lobby etc etc. Fair enough things like differences between quali / race and time of day be different, that's understandable, but not when it's the exact same time, place and situation.
Could also possibly mention things like differences in stability between the different views too, compare roof / bonnet cam to chase cam on twitchy, lift off oversteer cars.
Now that PD are getting so prominent in Esports the next GT could have physics like mariokart or 1980's pole position and there'll still be plenty of people wanting to be part of it. Look at how much so many of the the biggest streamers / youtubers etc complain about things on GTsport, yet they all keep going back to it......
I would go for a revolutionary double physics route, because I think its the only way to please everybody.
1) Pro physics, most realistic possible, for simulation users
2) More arcadeish, user friendly physics, for casuals (Gt has a lot of casual users that should be kept happy)
Yep, a game with two different physics, it can be done no problem.
It was a great marketing slogan in 1997. And for years after that even. In 2020, this marketing slogan didn't age well. It's hard to say if they should lose it or keep it though. It's kind of part of the brand and we're all coming to terms with what's what anyways.
It's not the physics that's keeping me away from the daily races. It's dull combos and a broken penalty / SR system.
However it is the physics (or at least the numb FFB) that keeps me away from time trials and single player.
I think PDi's answer to this before was Skid Recovery Force. Which didn't go well with online racing.
Why is that so? I think it worked well, but it was the same physics but with a lot more stability and more grip in the back of the car. I would go further than that, do both more different to each other. Also should be made more clear to everybody, because many people didnt actually know how it worked. I know many people was used to SRF, then joined a lobby without it and didnt understand why they couldnt drive the car well.
Everybody will think they can handle the pro physics and then start complaining that it's too difficult. Nobody will want to play what they see as a dumbed down easy mode because everybody thinks that they're a good driver.
Dont agree with that, many drivers i know dont have any problem admitting they're not good and they will go for the casual one
They already did this in GT5 Prologue, you could choose between Professional & Standard Driving Physics.
You're right: in GT5 Prologue I knew many drivers who would not come race online in the Professional lobbies because they prefered the Standard Driving Physics.
GT5 is possibly the only GT i dislike due to its physics now make no mistake i at driving but it felt as tho every car was on ice 24/7 but maybe that was because i had the original version and coulden't update it.
I'm curious, what was the difference between the two settings?
To me that's the fundamental problem with SRF and having two different driving physics. You either have to segregate the player base into two different lobbies so it's more equal or you have players unexperienced with a certain mode trying to join which can cause problems for those who have experience in that mode.
Neither situation is good for online racing. I think it's best to keep one physics model and keep things like SRF out of the game. If you want more grip just choose a higher grade tyre if allowed.
It's been a very long time since I played it, so I can't remember exactly. That said, the description in the manual says that the cars are harder to control when set to Pro physics. I remember not wanting to race in the Standard physics lobbies anymore after starting to race in the Pro ones.
Basically less grip, especially at the rear, you absolutely needed to feather the throttle on 2wd cars in 2nd gear.
If you used X and  to brake and accelerate then you were donald as the rear tyres didn't grip at all in 2nd gear, unless you were using the GTR (or any other 4wd / awd).
Whereas in beginner and intermediate races there was enough grip to race no problem with the x and  buttons, effectively 100% throttle and brake all the time, no feathering, regardless of drivetrain.
Hoping that this isn't going to be another one of those "realer is harder" discussions... More realism, sure. My biggest beefs with GTS are the excessive oversteer at turn-in on some cars, and really poor linearity of steering input in general.
Its because it was not properly explained and it was not a proper separation of two physics system.
I dont think choosing softer/racing tires solves anything TBH. In GT Sport if you use racing tires on many road cars, they become terrible to drive, they are not made for those tires.
Now that I say it, I think one of GT's problems is the lack of tutorials to the player (the ones that are more casual). Many dont know what they do.
I usually create lobbies and I find many players that dont adjust properly weight and power, dont know how to choose the proper tire when tire wear is enabled, or can't even switch cars from N200 to N300, things like that. And in GT5/GT6, many people didnt know what SRF was either.
Tire info from Pirelli (or as someone else mentioned , PD partnering with Michelin) doesn't give you a good tire model. The tire data is helpful no doubt but it doesn't tell a developer how to replicate the enormously complex physical and chemical interactions happening to a tire at the limit on the racetrack. If all it took was data, every simulation would have a great tire model.
I think Forza currently has significant content advantages over GT in cars and tracks. And it has far better AI. But when it comes to handling feel and tire model, GT Sport is superior to Forza 7. I only use controllers on console so I have no data with a wheel. Is the handling as sophisticated as the best on PC? No, but I do think the tire model feels good in GT Sport, has good control over the limit and works well with a controller which is essential on console and something most PC sims do not have to worry about.