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Discussion in 'Motorsport' started by GTPorsche, Aug 10, 2014.
Yeah, it's about time to unsubscribe from this thread, before it becomes a complete disaster.
The problem is these two cases happened under extremely different circumstances and completely different scenarios. I find it hard to relate them to each other somehow apart from the fact that someone unfortunately lost a life and the fact that its said by the person who has made some questionable posts makes it abit more difficult to make any sense from.
And I'm with MustangRyan, this is about to go a direction I really am not wanting to continue in.
Like I said, I certainly wouldn't compare the two incidents. I haven't followed JMoney's posts(or this thread in general), but I just wanted to say that, two incidents do share the similarity in that we can never know if Zimmerman or Stewart fully intended to do whatever they could to avoid casualty. Again, IMO, it's still not enough to start comparing the two cases. *shrug*
Right there with you
It reminds me of the Treyvon Martin case because of all the people jumping to conclusions and blaming Stewart, that's all. It's really not that similar at all because the police aren't treating it as criminal.
All I said was it reminded me of the case. No need to drive the thread offcourse.
Because mentioning the Treyvon Martin case wasn't off-topic on it's own accord....
If that is the area you're coming from hell this case reminds me of every damn case in the past 10 years due to jury of public opinions knowing or having a feeling of who is at fault. Outside of that this has absolutely nothing to do with the case you brought up, there is a thread on that already to read why this is so. You drove it off course by saying it reminded you based on the vaguest of reasons, also no one is driving the thread off course you've only said this to alleviate the bad attention you just gave yourself.
I'm going to ignore this and get the thread back on topic. After all, continued talk on who got the thread offtopic is keeping the thread off-topic.
Road and Track has written an article on the incident I'd like to recomend:
No it's not, we're comparing it to the Stewart-Ward accident and asking you how it is comparable by bring up the situation of the accident at hand which is on topic. You decided to say because people are rushing to judge, and that is done with every high profile incident, hell people are rushing to judge what happened in Ferguson right now I guess that's comparable to this case.
Also quit saying off topic to save yourself from discussing a vague reasoning you created. Even a mod commented on your post like the rest of us and tried to see what parallels there were (none) and if it was so off topic he'd have been the first to say anything. I agree people should rush to judge this but there is no comparison between this and really anything else.
So you liked GTPorsche's status to agree with it, which said mentioning Treyvon Martin was off-topic, and then you told me comparing the two WAS on topic. I suggest you figure out what exactly your position is before you continue to debate me. Or attack me. Or whatever the heck you're trying to do.
Once again, I will remind everyone that all I said was this reminds me of Treyvon Martin. Somebody got killed because they were in the wrong place at the wrong time. I never intended to explain reasons because in truth they aren't that similar, and I certainly didn't expect everyone to call me out.
Except it isn't in anyway the same.
No matter who you view as the villain/attacker in the Treyvon Martin case, there was intent to injure and kill from either party. You can't compare to a pedestrian fight to an incident on a race track.
Since we've gone off-topic, why not bring up Rodney King?
Maybe you should have said this reminds me of other controversial issues, and not list issues that other than through controversy, have nothing to do with the topic at hand.
I suggest you try and find a ore sound argument and actually quote me instead of just attacking and hoping I don't see it so it ends, yet again trying to alleviate. Comparing the two to show you how you're wrong is on topic because we're still talking about the incident that happened involving Ward and Stewart as the title suggest, it's quite obvious or should be. Bringing up a case that has nothing to do with this one was off topic, and you didn't even explain how they were similar to begin with just said it reminded you out of the blue in a weird vagueness.
And @Blitz24 put it best after really. Also Ward got killed yet again because he placed himself in that position as sad as it sound it's reality, Martin walking home is hardly the same but okay...
At length I have been able to form an opinion of the the Ward/Stewart tragedy. This is since I interviewed a close neighbor, Stan, who is former dirt track racer and has seen many hundreds of dirt track sprint car races in person. Stan reviewed the video with sound where Tony goosed the engine in the 3rd lane up, and others going by under yellow didn't. When the engine is goosed, the "thumper", or wide, treaded right rear tire with stagger, steps out to the right. The car, pacing under yellow, could have been steered to a lower lane, but wasn't. After viewing the tape several times, Stan was convinced Tony had lost his temper, and was attempting to intimidate Ward with noise or shower him with dirt - but not attempting to injure Ward - and it all went horribly wrong. Stan feels Tony Stewart bears some of the blame, but will not be criminally charged or sanctioned. I can assure you that if I did this in my IKF kart racing series, I would be banned for life.
So Stan, I, and probably most of the rest of us, realize Tony Stewart has always been something of a hothead. Back in the early 90's when Tony was racing 3 or 4 dirt track races/week all over Indiana, he was cited for speeding like 35 times. In court, he justified it by saying he needed to in order to get to all those races.
Since the accident, Stewart flew his jet to his Indiana home, luggage was brought aboard without Tony deplaning, then he took off for parts unknown. I'm sure he feels very bad about this.
I still fail to see how his temper plays into this considering the one with the temper was the one bouncing around on foot...
I'm sure you will concede it was a car/pedestrian accident, that the car played some role, as well as the pedestrian. Therefore Stewart's car, Stewart himself, and Stewart's state of mind played some part in this tragedy.
Obviously, Ward felt aggrieved, acted impulsively and ultimately self-destructively. He bears primary responsibility, in my view. But Stewart's state of mind clearly also plays into this. It will be both interesting and painful to see how this works out.
In his youth, Fangio raced long distance over the Andes with a co-driver. Then came an accident which cost his co-driver's life. What was Fangio's response? He never again raced with a co-driver, even though it put him at a disadvantage to those that did.
Again... Stewart probably had no idea Ward spun. Where does Stewart's "temper" play into it?
There are at least two different versions of the sound.
You're sure that you guys listened the real one?
You didn't explained the connection between this piece of (widely known) information and your conclusions.
It is called reasoning.
Now I know why you failed to explain the connection.
It is called bias.
So, you know Stewart's state of mind at that moment.
And you also know that his state of mind clearly played into the accident.
Certainly you have strong and indisputable evidence to support both bold claims.
You already gave this evidence to the authorities, right?
They should have it.
Okay, that seems factually obvious. You can equally say Ward's car, Ward himself and Ward's state of mind played some part in this tragedy. That's equally literally true.
I think you're implying something there despite not explicitly stating it. I think it's literally true because his "state of mind" would include visual stimuli that he was receiving, who knows what they were? Not you or I.
Did he even realise what had happened to Ward's car? I take the view that Stewart closed the door and that more experienced racers might have given it up. I think Stewart expected that to happen. Did Stewart come round at yellow-speed fired up and ready to fight? I find it hard to imagine.
To your Fangio comment; I recall that Jackie Stewart (no relation) retired after his 99th GP following the death of his protegé-and-close-friend Francois Cevert at Watkins Glen in...erm...73? After all the deaths Stewart and his cohort saw he was just too close to this one to continue in the sport. I'll fact check it tomorrow..
I think it's important to remember that Ward was further to the left right before the hit. From Tony's point of view, he was about to hit Kevin. Kevin jumped back to the right just before impact.
It's all completely possible that Stewart never saw Ward on-track or even noticed that the car ahead of him swerved. I'm sure he figured out that Ward spun when a caution came out after contact with Ward, but he had no idea he was on-track until it was too late. Stewart also may have been at an angle where the car in front of him was blocking his view of Ward.
Stewart wasn't looking to intimidate Ward because he didn't know he had exited his car. If he saw Ward on-track as he approached it would only have been for a second or two; not really enough time to decide to intimidate Ward and get in a position to do so. Even with his temper, Stewart is a smart guy and I don't think he would have intimidated Ward in that manner.
How about helmet-cam view from a sprint car? Notice, it's not even dark.
Like driving from inside a blender...
He also almost never looked to his right. Even when he let off the gas after winning his heat race, the ride was very bumpy. The people that think Stewart saw Ward from 300 yards away and then decided to hit him are beyond delusional.
There could have been someone in a Bugs Bunny costume on the outside and I would have struggled to pick them out.
We pay attention to what we think is important, and what we expect to see.
We expect to see other death-machines that could crash into us and ruin our race. And we tend to focus on those.
We don't expect to see people not wearing orange reflective vests standing in the track.
Well and the most important part I think that I brought up and @Bopop4 expanded on even, the crap that gets kicked up on their helmets and that they have to wear tear offs or wipe it away constantly. It's possible Stewart was doing this at the moment before striking Ward and it was just a bad set of circumstances for both.
Yesterday I stumbled across into what was arguably the most pathetic comment about this very sad tragedy (he totally forgot that was talking about a guy standing in the middle of a track... I think...):
"The driver of the 45 car says he didn't see Kevin...
but Kevin wasn't positioning himself to be seen by the 45 car,
he was positioning himself to be seen by Stewart..."