POLL: Do econo-cars and small cars (think Lifan) have a place in gt6?

[avens]

And I agree. But that has nothing to do with the general inclusion of Kei-cars. I think/hope GT6 will preserve the 7 premium kei-cars we have in GT5 and maybe add 2 or 3 more. Most of the older kei-cars from GT4 should, and probably will, be dropped. But kei-cars, as a segment, should stay, just with different cars. i.e. hopefully a predominantly sportscar selection of kei-cars with few mundane hatches.

Of course the standard to premium issue does matter when talking about GT5's "econo-cars".

Lets say 300 new cars and 200 classics make it to GT6 (those new categories are to replace the 2 banned words), plus about the current ~250 premiums that don't require much work (couldn't come up with another word), so 750 cars with fully modeled interior.
Have to choose 200 out of 800 classics (ok, standards), because it simply is impossible to choose them all, and my point is people would prefer sport cars getting re-made over the life step van.

As for new "econo-cars" (not sporty kei cars), which is a separate yet related issue, I also think PD should focus on making sport and desirable cars overall instead of the 2013 life step van revamp (you never know, with the s3000 and new nsx coming up next year), because people in wishlists are asking those cars.

 

[Flaco13]

we will have to use that word until all of them have interiors, lol. I don't think there will be "more premium" cars than others though (as a third category above premium, platinum for example).

I have no idea what your saying. It doesn't make any sense and its way off topic man.

 

[avens]

That was just in case you were suggesting the new cars made exclusively for GT6 could be in a different category above premium, which is a possibility.

I know you want variety and all that, but it's absolutely clear not every car is getting "converted", so sacrifices will have to be made. Are you really aware that choosing a life step van-like car means not choosing a sport or super car such as the veyron or diablo? That's the price of variety when you can't have them all, and all I've been saying is people won't like to pay it
edit: no matter if it is "standard to premium" or a completely new car to the series.

 

[Flaco13]

Of course the standard to premium issue does matter when talking about GT5's "econo-cars".

This thread is about GT6 so it doesn't matter at all.

Lets say 300 new cars and 200 classics make it to GT6 (those new categories are to replace the 2 banned words), plus about the current ~250 premiums that don't require much work (couldn't come up with another word), so 750 cars with fully modeled interior.
Have to choose 200 out of 800 classics (ok, standards), because it simply is impossible to choose them all, and my point is people would prefer sport cars getting re-made over the life step van.

yep but still out of the 200 they would take some Key Cars. Read my post:

Kei Cars must stay. They are fun, as many in this thread have said. They are important products to the Japanese economy and affortable, therefore interesting to the Japanese people. Somehow it's their game (even if Japan isn't the market with highest sales). Why want to take that away from them?

Imagining Polyphony Digital was from London, UK and Kaz wasn't Kazunori Yamauchi but called Rajjeshwar Fernandes and we would call him Rajj... We had every generation Fiesta's and Nova's(Corsa's), tonns of Mini Cooper's in all kinds of specs, Triumph's, MG's Rovers, Lotus Talbot and Cortina etc. etc.

And the Japanese fans hate them and consider them boring. So for the 6th title they decide to get rid off all the cars I mentioned, If you liked those cars and was happy they gave it to you, how would you feel, then?

To me a GT is a GT if it includes all the varieties of automobile cultures across the globe. There will always be something missing to somebody. There will always be complaints. I could complain about a missing car or feature in GT5 or Forza4 all day long. But if PD was the way that so many here would want it to be? With Pagani's and Koenigsegg's and that range only, plus some classics (whatever classifies/unclassifies a car as such). IMHO I would stop buying it.

As for new "econo-cars" (not sporty kei cars), which is a separate yet related issue, I also think PD should focus on making sport and desirable cars overall instead of the 2013 life step van revamp (you never know, with the s3000 and new nsx coming up next year), because people in wishlists are asking those cars.

Now you mean to say you find the S3000's and NSX's just as boring as a Step Van??? Oh boy...

That was just in case you were suggesting the new cars made exclusively for GT6 could be in a different category above premium, which is a possibility.

I know you want variety and all that, but it's absolutely clear not every car is getting "converted", so sacrifices will have to be made. Are you really aware that choosing a life step van-like car means not choosing a sport or super car such as the veyron or diablo? That's the price of variety when you can't have them all, and all I've been saying is people won't like to pay it
edit: no matter if it is "standard to premium" or a completely new car to the series.

You must've gotten me all wrong, I sugested that in GT6 there won't be any categories at all but that all cars are of the same quality. If there are no standards then there are no premiums either...

 

[SagarisGTB]

Ok, ignoring kei-sportscars, GT6 should have at least two "econo-cars", the i-miev and the Cervo SR from GT5. These two are already modeled as premiums, it would be pointless to get rid of them. Should PD add more? Maybe 1 or 2 (something common in japan and modern like the Alto, Wagon R, Life/Zest, Mira or Move) to preserve the segment and give us a taste of modern japanese kei-car motoring. Some of us like these cars and it would make us happy to have a couple of them, but otherwise PD's time/money would be better spent modeling other cars. That's my take.

Also, I don't think PD looks back to "standards" for choices and their intention isn't to "bring back" any cars. Certain cars have been in multiple games because they are significant or their models have been reused. PD will select cars for GT6 looking forward, not backwards. Most of the cars that were also in GT4 but are now premiums in GT5 (Ford GT, SLR, M5, NSX, Skyline GT-R) are often different model years to those in GT4, meaning they often model different vehicles going forward. What I'm trying to say is that I don't think PD will consider the GT4 models when selecting GT6 cars. GT5's car list has led me to believe that.

 

[avens]

This thread is about GT6 so it doesn't matter at all.

Not gonna explain this because it just gets way too obvious.

yep but still out of the 200 they would take some Key Cars. Read my post:

Good to know there's one person in the world with that opinion. Problem is most people prefer the opposite; it's not like there's a crowd of raging people demanding the citroen c1 to be added (not "kei" but an example that fits)

Now you mean to say you find the S3000's and NSX's just as boring as a Step Van??? Oh boy...

Again too obvious to explain, but gonna do it anyway (as I like honda).
In 2012 and 2013 Honda is revamping some cars and also making new generations of the ones that are still successful sales-wise and currently in production. 2 of them are the s3000 (which actually I'm looking forward to buy) and the nsx, so it was a joke about honda doing a new version of the life step van because they are doing the same with other cars.

 

[Flaco13]

Not gonna explain this because it just gets way too obvious.

Ohh, explain it to me cause it seems like I'm too stupid to understand, please...

Good to know there's one person in the world with that opinion. Problem is most people prefer the opposite; it's not like there's a crowd of raging people demanding the citroen c1 to be added.

1st. You didn't read my post. 2nd 'most people' has to be defined more clearly. 3rd Citroen C1 and the likely counterfeits are cars that would make perfect sense in the real driving simulator.

Again too obvious to explain, but gonna do it anyway (as I like honda).
In 2012 and 2013 Honda is revamping some cars and also making new generations of the ones that are still successful sales-wise and currently in production. 2 of them are the s3000 (which actually I'm looking forward to buy) and the nsx, so it was a joke about honda doing a new version of the life step van because they are doing the same with other cars.

oh it was a joke? well... lol...not

 

[Valkyr1313]

Avens, this is just my opinion but I'd actually really like the new Life Step Van instead of something like a Ford Mustang. The reason why is because driving these slower cars can be more entertaining than driving sports cars where you need to fight for control every time you go around a corner with no traction control. Do I expect the Mustang to not be in game? Not at all. All I'm saying is that a low powered car can be more entertaining than high performance cars. I don't expect PD to get rid of small cars or sports cars but it would be nice to have some more modern Kei-cars that I can wring out around the Nurburgring. As much as I enjoy fast cars I realise that the global and political climate is towards smaller cars that are more fuel-efficient and PD needs to bring these cars in game before another Porsche situation occurs.

Also, as much as it kills me to say this a small, low powered car DLC including cars such as the Citroen C1, Toyota Aygo, and Skoda Fabia would be super entertaining and could help people become better drivers instead of being awful through the corners and only catching up down the straights where their 10 billion horsepower makes them unbeatable and ruins the race for me in my Scion FR-S or Honda Civic

RedDragon

 

[Flaco13]

I really start to believe that a main part of the reason why people have this great animosity towards slow cars is that in their countries they have never experienced a fast ride at top speed on a highway or pushing a rather sportive car over a mountain pass to its limits in real life, and therefore consider anything that goes slow in a game as boring because they can't imagine how the speed they are going would feel like. It is hard if not impossible to simulate that feeling.

 

[niky]

With that said, still no proof against my point (that people want sports cars instead of the nissan micra)

Who is this "people" you are talking about? Is he a nice person?

I've already addressed the concerns... noting that people who own small and cheap cars can and do buy a videogame simply because their car is in them. The same people that put out money to buy 1:18 scale Corollas or Mazda2s. This is a valuable market for PD because nobody else caters to them.

Because by that logic they need tractors in GT to complete the driving simulation.

The three-wheeled Benz in GT4 drove a lot like a tractor. Except it took 17 hours to go around the Nurburgring.

More Tank Car? More oversteery/scary Fiat500? Yes please.

That's why I say "econo-cars" don't have a place in GT6. In the end adding a micra means not adding the br-z

And yet, for all your ranting, GT5 DLC includes the new BRZ/FRS, and not the 2012 Micra.

You're simply flogging an issue that probably isn't there. From the very start, GT5 has concentrated on the newest, most powerful sports cars and luxury cars available.... from Sagaris' list:

Suzuki Cappuccino (x2): Sports Car
Autozam AZ-1: Sports Car
Daihatsu Copen: Roadster, Sporty
Daihatsu OFC-1 Concept: Sports Car Concept
Mitsubishi i-Miev: Electric car, notable car
Suzuki Cervo SR: Economy hatch

Only one of these cars is outright undesirable to the common enthusiast... the Cervo... (and it's probably desirable to the hundred or so Cervo owners who play GT) the rest are relatively sporty Keis. In fact, I'd question the lack of an Alto Works in that line-up... or the Daihatsu Charade GTTi or the Subaru 360.

GT6 will undoubtedly be missing cars that some people have been clamoring for. But that lack will be across-the-board rather than specifically in one area or another. Again... just because Car A is dropped does not mean Car B gets in.

GT5 dropped a lot of Kei cars from their list, they skipped some of the lower-powered new cars for Premium-izing like:

Mazda2
Mazda3
Ford Fiesta
Mitsubishi Colt
Chevrolet Cruze
Toyota Corolla
Honda Fit
Kia... anything
Hyundai i10, i30, whatever

Did they spend that on more Koenigseggs, Ferraris or Bugattis? Nope. They spent it on NASCARs, multiple JGTC touring cars (near duplicates), and more GT-R special editions (They even kept the "drives-like-a-truck" concept from GT4).

Force them to somehow drop all the Kei cars and you'll perhaps get one more Ferrari and one RUF... and twenty more NASCARs. Good luck.

 

[interpolfan11]

The only people that I hear complaining are the ones that complain regardless. You really need to stop posting as if you're speaking for the vast majority. The results of this pole, of which you have been the only one to question it's straight-forwardness, show that you are in the minority.

Again, the poll is ridiculously misleading so stop using it as evidence. I think I’m the fifth person to have said that already.

I seriously doubt that of the 7 million posts on GTPlanet, 1-2 Million of them are people complaining about GT's car list. That is another gross exaggeration in an attempt to give strength to your argument. Even then. GTPlanet represents a very small portion of GT's audience. PD could take some ideas from what we say, but by no means are we close to representing how all of the millions (7.43 million to be exact) of GT Players out there feel.

And I still can’t believe you’re criticizing my rhetoric in an attempt to divert from the true subject at hand. Most GTPlanet users were disappointed with the GT5’s car list because it lacked many of the premium-quality cars they had been wishing for. We can make a poll for that if you would like.

PD does not base it's car lists solely on what the fans wish for. So prepare to be disappointed.

I know. But they could use our feedback more often. I see nothing wrong with that.

No, you most certainly don't. 86 people that voted in this thread feel the differently, though.

I’ll just copy and paste what I wrote earlier.

But I still think you're a little bit confused about the average fan's relationship with those cars. The majority voted "yes" on that poll because a) the poll is misleading b) the average fan will take anything they can get from PD, knowing that "they don't have to drive it". However, I'm not a big fan of this mentality in this context, since these Kei-cars are again, diminishing the chances of receiving the cars they really want in the series.

And I apologize for my tone, but you need to switch your perspective from your own selfish one and consider the needs of the millions of other people playing GT. Despite what you might think and say, there is obviously a vast majority of people that feel differently. Enough of a majority that PD has continued to justify putting K-cars in every title since GT2 apparently.

How do you know I’m being selfish? How do you know there’s “obviously a vast majority”? Literally 104 people have voted “yes” in that poll (an extremely misleading one at that) and yet they represent the “vast majority”? You said it yourself, “GTPlanet represents a very small portion of GT's audience.”

Black and White? This coming from the guy who offered to make a poll that was going to require you to choose between a K-car and a Super car and not offer the option of "Both" since that one would win and his point would be moot.

I've already made my point above as to why I'm correcting you. Don't try to write your generalizations off as figures of speech.

First of all, you completed misquoted me. I’ve posted exactly what I wrote in the post you're referring to, and it’s a far cry from “choose between a kei-car and a supercar”:

"I could start my own poll stating "Would you rather have a Japanese economy car with 60HP or [insert literally any other type of car here]" and I guarantee you the second option would win."

Big difference from what you incorrectly had me saying in your post, right? ^

And that hypothetical poll is fair, contrary to what you say. The GTPlanet crowd can’t have as many cars on their wishlist as possible and kei-cars at the same time. They can’t have their cake and eat it too.

Again, what vast majority? If we take this thread as a sample of all active users in GTPlanet, you're in the Minority. And then if we remember that GTPlanet itself is a, albeit passionate and vocal, minority that makes you in a very, very small minority.

Wrong. The vast majority are still not putting them on their wishlist, thus, they are not “explicitly requesting” them as I wrote before. And again, the poll is misleading. I voted “yes” in the poll because I like a variety of classic cars that are considered to be “slow” by modern standards, and yet I didn’t actually want kei-cars. Now do you see how the poll is misleading?

How do you know that? That's practically an AUP violation.

Prove to me that what I wrote is false, misleading, or inaccurate with concrete facts. I’m pretty sure it can’t be done.

You don't know this. Let's play with an idea here: What if the option is Kei Car A and Kei Car B?

Either way you lose, apparently.

You don’t know if the option is “ kei-car A” and “kei-car B”, though. And I seriously doubt it is for reasons I already posted earlier in this thread.

The option could very well be kei-car “A” and “car that the fanbase has actually put in their wishlists”.

More power to you! Just stop speaking for everyone else and realize that your opinions are actually in the minority.

I am speaking for nearly everyone else, though. I’m speaking for the people who were disappointed by GT5’s car list, which is almost everyone.

Where? All I see is you telling me that you don't want K-cars because they'll supposedly prevent more desirable cars from being included in the game.

I've read a good deal of posts on this forum since I've came here back in '07 and they were all pretty positive. Now if you'd like to prove me wrong and find me a few threads (since they're apparently in abundance) please feel free to link me as I don't really know what terms to begin searching by.

If, for some reason, you're unable to do so, I can only assume that they don't exist.

LOL, you seriously don’t think there’s an abundance of posts on here criticizing GT5’s car list?

https://www.gtplanet.net/gran-turismo-5-official-car-list/comment-page-12/#comments (Probably the best example of people complaining about the car-list.)
https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=132309&page=13 (This is the master car list thread, the complaining starts on page 13)
https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=175362 (This one is self-explanatory.)
https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=128529 (Go to the part that says “Let’s discuss the cars”. And there’s plenty of complaints about the car list later as well as the thread continues.)
https://www.gtplanet.net/more-gran-turismo-5-dlc-confirmed-by-kazunori-yamauchi/comment-page-5/ (There’s an amazing amount of complaining in the comment section about PD’s odd car choices.)
https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=255088 (One of the most notorious complaining threads in GTPlanet’s history, contains so many examples of people criticizing PD’s odd car choices.)
https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=134826 (A legendary complaining thread that stayed on the first page forever, contains some examples of people complaining about the car list. I’m willing to show you the posts that contain complaining about the car list if you refuse to find them yourself.)
https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=260344 (Thinly-disguised “I’m disappointed with GT5’s car list thread.&#8221

And the irritating part about me wasting thirty-minutes of my life posting all of these links is that deep-down, you already knew people were criticizing GT5’s car list because a) PD prioritized which cars should be standard and which cars should be premium incorrectly b) PD likely ignored the fanbases’ wishlists and put in the cars they wanted instead c) there’s duplicates d) the idea of standard cars making up 80% of the car list is annoying considering all the time they had to make the game.

BTW, I would love to make a poll asking “Are you satisfied with GT5’s car list?” I think you know how that would go.

They seem to listen to us just fine. Tire smoke, reverse lights, damage, Ferrari, Lamborghini, Mclaren, Spa, Bathurst, DLC, online, weather, time change, etc. All things I do recall people asking for and complaining about.

Which reminds me, the biggest things I recall people complaining about were the inclusion of Standards and the continued duplicates of Japanese cars like the NSX, Miata and Skyline GT-R.

There’s plenty of suggestions in the feedback section and in peoples’ wishlists that PD hasn’t catered to. Too many.

I hope you seriously don't think PD has struck the perfect balance between listening to the fanbase and doing whatever they please. Such a thought would be pretty demeaning towards the GT fanbase.

You're half right and half wrong. You're right in that we Americans and Europeans continually complain (You'll have to wonder why they would listen to us at all). You're wrong in that you think PD doesn't listen, I'll remind you of my above post. Plenty of content has been added that the fans have called for. Including ridiculous things like skid/tire marks and reverse lights.

You’ve misquoted me for the second time now. I said PD “rarely” listens, not “never” listens. There’s a huge difference between those terms and how they affect the meaning of that sentence.

And why would I wonder why they would listen to us European and Americans at all when we account for a staggering 84.8% of GT5’s sales worldwide? They should be listening to us more often.

How about writing an argument that isn't based on your opinions that you try to make sound like are the shared opinions of every GT player ever? You can talk down to me all you like.

Another misquote there. I’ve been saying “vast majority” which is a lot different from “every GT player ever”. And yes, I still believe I’m representing the vast majority, who are all disappointed with the car list.



Ultimately, all I can say is that I’m shocked you and a few other members would rather have kei-cars as opposed to having as many cars on your wishlists as possible. That just seems silly and rather odd to me. (SagarisGTB notwithstanding, as he’s the only one who has explicitly voiced that he wants two more kei-cars)

Your evidence is merely opinion, with little factual basis. Again... how many premiums are Kei cars, and how many are supercars? How many of the cars modelled and released as DLC since release are Kei cars?

If you ask me, the priorities of Polyphony Digital are pretty obvious. GT-R, special edition GT-R, GT-R racecar... Then everything else. But then, that's also an opinion, with no basis except personal bias.

Yes, actually modellig cars takes up resources... But it's pretty obvious that even in the absence of modelling new Kei cars, PD still isn't modelling the cars you want it to model, even in DLC. The cars at the top of the wishlists? Nowhere to be seen.

Have you considered that your theory (PD can’t obtain the licenses to include the cars that are most often wished for) is also supported by no factual evidence? It’s just a theory.

And again, I’m extremely skeptical about your theory. Turn 10 used a $15-20 million dollar budget over a period of about two years and obtained those licenses. PD had a $60-80 million dollar budget and five years to make a game and still couldn’t obtain the licenses. That indicates mixed-up priorities, not a lack of ability to obtain licensing.

I really start to believe that a main part of the reason why people have this great animosity towards slow cars is that in their countries they have never experienced a fast ride at top speed on a highway or pushing a rather sportive car over a mountain pass to its limits in real life, and therefore consider anything that goes slow in a game as boring because they can't imagine how the speed they are going would feel like. It is hard if not impossible to simulate that feeling.

Wrong.

And I don't have an animosity towards slow cars. It does annoy me when certain ones (especially kei-cars) are included in GT as opposed to more often-requested vehicles, though.

interpolfan11 - if you are so fond of Forza's carlist (it is good) and so critical of GT's (Good with even more variety) then nobody is stopping you from swapping sides or even getting both. K-cars and small cars are great fun and would be even more so with some more suitable tracks and race series and I would take a 63hp Suzuki Alto Works over a Bugatti Veyron SSR Grand Shiny Spiro edition as it is a far more enjoyable car to drive and tune.

I already have Forza 4.

But being I'm a GT5 owner as well, I feel like I should try to voice my opinion on how GT6 should be developed.

By the way, the Veyron isn't even on my wishlist (although I still like it), however, I feel it should be modeled as a premium car in GT6 simply because it's on so many peoples' wishlists, unlike kei-cars. You know, it's funny that I've been accused of having a "selfish" viewpoint, when in reality-- I'm simply calling for giving the fans what they constantly request in their wishlists.

 

[niky]

I am speaking for nearly everyone else, though. I’m speaking for the people who were disappointed by GT5’s car list, which is almost everyone.

And yet not all of us are disappointed for the same reasons. Do all of us want the same cars?

Ultimately, all I can say is that I’m shocked you and a few other members would rather have kei-cars as opposed to having as many cars on your wishlists as possible. That just seems silly and rather odd to me. (SagarisGTB notwithstanding, as he’s the only one who has explicitly voiced that he wants two more kei-cars)

And yet no solid proof at all that +Kei equals -Wishlist cars.

Have you considered that your theory (PD can’t obtain the licenses to include the cars that are most often wished for) is also supported by no factual evidence? It’s just a theory.

Up until recently, the Porsche license "theory" was a fact. PD could not obtain that license. And the Ferrari and Lamborghini licenses are very recent. So... no. Note the issue with the Diablo not being in international copies of GT3 A-Spec.

This is not to say that cars most often wished for are not there solely because of licensing reasons. There are no reasons they could not include historical BMW Ms, since BMW loves GT... but apparently BMW would rather GT focuses on modelling their current line-up rather than historical models that people aren't going to be buying from their dealerships.

And again, I’m extremely skeptical about your theory. Turn 10 used a $15-20 million dollar budget over a period of about two years and obtained those licenses. PD had a $60-80 million dollar budget and five years to make a game and still couldn’t obtain the licenses. That indicates mixed-up priorities, not a lack of ability to obtain licensing.

That indicates poor accounting and management. But the total budget has very little to do with licensing fees, as many companies actively push for PD to include their cars.

Wrong.

So... when's the last time you were on the racetrack with... say... a Chevy Spark?

By the way, the Veyron isn't even on my wishlist (although I still like it), however, I feel it should be modeled as a premium car in GT6 simply because it's on so many peoples' wishlists, unlike kei-cars. You know, it's funny that I've been accused of having a "selfish" viewpoint, when in reality-- I'm simply calling for giving the fans what they constantly request in their wishlists.

While I wholeheartedly agree that GT5 is missing a lot of essential cars that should be there as premiums, whether I like them or not (I don't like the Veyron either, but it should be a premium). I feel you're all barking up the wrong tree. Gran Turismo's car mix is eclectic, and it's going to stay that way, come hell or high water. And that's a good thing... because it gives the game the ability to delight and surprise players months or even years down the line when they get in something new and completely unrelated to anything they've driven in the game previously.

What's unfortunate is the lack of venues and controlled fields to enjoy said cars in... which is where GT5 really fails. Seasonals make up for it (the Schwimwagen Seasonal was the most fun I've had in a racing game in a long time), but such challenges should really be in the main game.

 

[interpolfan11]

And yet not all of us are disappointed for the same reasons. Do all of us want the same cars?

No, we all don’t want the same cars. However, there is a feedback section that conveniently shows all the cars that the GTPlanet community wants the most. PD should use that feedback section more often, for the sake of their fans.

And yet no solid proof at all that +Kei equals -Wishlist cars.

I think the fact that PD has had the permission to model highly-requested Ferraris, Lamborghinis, BMWs, and cars from many other brands during the GT5 development process and yet still left them out of the game in favor of kei-cars is enough evidence to support my theory-- the modeling of kei-cars took away from the potential modeling of more often-requested cars.

Up until recently, the Porsche license "theory" was a fact. PD could not obtain that license. And the Ferrari and Lamborghini licenses are very recent. So... no. Note the issue with the Diablo not being in international copies of GT3 A-Spec.

This is not to say that cars most often wished for are not there solely because of licensing reasons. There are no reasons they could not include historical BMW Ms, since BMW loves GT... but apparently BMW would rather GT focuses on modelling their current line-up rather than historical models that people aren't going to be buying from their dealerships.

First of all, I'm sorry for pretty much misunderstanding your statements about licensing and its role in PD not adding some of the most often-requested cars.

However, I’m confused about the portion of the statement I bolded. Why would BMW want Turn 10 to model vehicles that BMW is not currently selling as opposed to PD?

That indicates poor accounting and management. But the total budget has very little to do with licensing fees, as many companies actively push for PD to include their cars.

Kaz’s poor management was a product of his mixed-up priorities.

So... when's the last time you were on the racetrack with... say... a Chevy Spark?

You misread his statement. I’ve pushed a rather sporty car through a mountain pass to its limits in real-life.

While I wholeheartedly agree that GT5 is missing a lot of essential cars that should be there as premiums, whether I like them or not (I don't like the Veyron either, but it should be a premium). I feel you're all barking up the wrong tree. Gran Turismo's car mix is eclectic, and it's going to stay that way, come hell or high water. And that's a good thing... because it gives the game the ability to delight and surprise players months or even years down the line when they get in something new and completely unrelated to anything they've driven in the game previously.

I feel GT could maintain an eclectic and diverse car list without having kei-cars in it.

Again, my problem with kei-cars is they’re less iconic (in America and Europe, PD’s chief audience) than other “slow” premium cars in the game and more importantly-- rarely does anyone put them in their wishlists and yet they keep showing up in the game.

 

[niky]

I think the fact that PD has had the permission to model highly-requested Ferraris, Lamborghinis, BMWs, and cars from many other brands during the GT5 development process and yet still left them out of the game in favor of kei-cars is enough evidence to support my theory-- the modeling of kei-cars took away from the potential modeling of more often-requested cars.

Proof?

First of all, I'm sorry for pretty much misunderstanding your statements about licensing and its role in PD not adding some of the most often-requested cars.

However, I’m confused about the portion of the statement I bolded. Why would BMW want Turn 10 to model vehicles that BMW is not currently selling as opposed to PD?

GT5 is an international license, and since about GT3 or 4, BMW has recognized its important role in marketing. This is not to say Forza is not as big as GT, but that GT players cover a wide spectrum of users... including older players who don't traditionally play "racing games"... players who are potential sales customers.

This is why BMW had its own GT special edition (dealership only). For marketing.

Here's where the question of what makes way for what in terms of time spent to record, test, scan and model a car comes in. Where does PD go to model cars from a certain manufacturer? To the manufacturer, of course. With BMW and Ford (don't know who else), Polyphony Digital is privy to internal testing data and computer models that they can then use to build these cars. With these companies, while there may not be a push for PD to NOT model older cars, there certainly is a push and a concerted effort from the manufacturer to ensure that the latest, newest and currently on-sale models are in GT5.

Kei cars don't require PD to go to Germany or the USA to model them. They don't require foreign interpreters to translate data (sometimes badly... see the Golf Mk V gear ratios) coming from the manufacturer, or entire teams flying overseas to do instrumented testing. If a Kei car takes anything away from GT5, it's more often another Japanese car that could have been tested and modelled on the same day in a different local location.

Kaz’s poor management was a product of his mixed-up priorities.

Opinion. Unless you know something about the internal workings of the company.

You misread his statement. I’ve pushed a rather sporty car through a mountain pass to its limits in real-life.

Apologies. But then, I do suggest you push an underpowered crud-box to its limits in real life before deciding that they don't belong in the game.

I feel GT could maintain an eclectic and diverse car list without having kei-cars in it.

That's your opinion.

Again, my problem with kei-cars is they’re less iconic (in America and Europe, PD’s chief audience) than other “slow” premium cars in the game and more importantly-- rarely does anyone put them in their wishlists and yet they keep showing up in the game.

Do you read Japanese wishlists, as well? How about offline wishlists for gamers who aren't 13-21? Those cars are not iconic to you, but to generations of car lovers elsewhere, there is a lot of love for these cars that you don't care for. There's an entire subculture dedicated to driving, tuning, modifying and simply celebrating them. Saying Kei Cars should be dropped because the US and Europe are "PD's chief audience" is like saying because US movies gross more in ticket sales overseas, Marvel should drop the stars and stripes on Captain America's shield in the next Avengers or Cap movie.

And since most people who watched Captain America have never read the comics, they should have dropped Bucky and the Howling Commandos, too. The time they spent writing them in and casting them could have gone to... I don't know... putting in Sharon Carter... then again, Spiderman 2 had no Green Goblins, and they still didn't bring in "The Lizard" or "The Rhino". See how that works?

Rhetoric like that completely ignores the history of the franchise and the appeal it has in its home market. That shield may not mean anything to you, but son, to those of us who grew up reading comics before the internets, it's definitely iconic.

What were we talking about, again?

 

[Snaeper]

Again, the poll is ridiculously misleading so stop using it as evidence. I think I’m the fifth person to have said that already.

You're right, it is misleading. But not in the way you might think, as the OP was actually referring to Nissan Leaf's and Toyota Prius' apparently.

Thanks for mis-interpreting the poll and bringing your disdain for K-cars into this!

And I still can’t believe you’re criticizing my rhetoric in an attempt to divert from the true subject at hand. Most GTPlanet users were disappointed with the GT5’s car list because it lacked many of the premium-quality cars they had been wishing for. We can make a poll for that if you would like.

Forgive me, but I'm criticizing your rhetoric because I feel like that's the only thing that gives your argument any credibility. I was trying to let you see things from how I was seeing them. Those things being a guy who's speaking for others instead of himself.

I know. But they could use our feedback more often. I see nothing wrong with that.

Sure they cou--- wait a minute, how do you know they don't use our feedback more often? What if the process of adding a car into a game is more complex than simply being able to do what the fans tell them to do?

I’ll just copy and paste what I wrote earlier.

But I still think you're a little bit confused about the average fan's relationship with those cars. The majority voted "yes" on that poll because a) the poll is misleading b) the average fan will take anything they can get from PD, knowing that "they don't have to drive it". However, I'm not a big fan of this mentality in this context, since these Kei-cars are again, diminishing the chances of receiving the cars they really want in the series.

And I'll bold and comment on what I bolded and commented on earlier. You don't know this. If you did, you wouldn't be here arguing with me about it. This is your opinion. This is not fact.

First of all, you completed misquoted me. I’ve posted exactly what I wrote in the post you're referring to, and it’s a far cry from “choose between a kei-car and a supercar”:

"I could start my own poll stating "Would you rather have a Japanese economy car with 60HP or [insert literally any other type of car here]" and I guarantee you the second option would win."

Big difference from what you incorrectly had me saying in your post, right? ^

And that hypothetical poll is fair (in my opinion), contrary to what you say. The GTPlanet crowd can’t have as many cars on their wishlist as possible and kei-cars at the same time. They can’t have their cake and eat it too.

Do you see quotes? I don't see quotes. Ever heard of paraphrasing?

Contrary to what you say, in my opinion that hypothetical poll isn't.

They can't have their cake and eat it too? You realize this figure of speech works better for my argument than it does for yours, right? They can't have the cars they ask for and not get anything they don't? Sounds like that's why K-cars are in the game!

Wrong. The vast majority are still not putting them on their wishlist, thus, they are not “explicitly requesting” them as I wrote before. And again, the poll is misleading. I voted “yes” in the poll because I like a variety of classic cars that are considered to be “slow” by modern standards, and yet I didn’t actually want kei-cars. Now do you see how the poll is misleading?

Well as the OP apparently stated, what you voted for was for the Nissan Leaf and Toyota Prius. Not K-cars, not Classics.

Prove to me that what I wrote is false, misleading, or inaccurate with concrete facts. I’m pretty sure it can’t be done.

No. You prove to me that what you say is true. I don't have to do a damned thing. It can't be done because nobody on GTPlanet knows either way. Like I said though, it's almost borderline. You're stating something as fact that nobody has any idea about whether or not it's true. You could be right, but until you have proof, there's no point in bringing this up, as it doesn't add any strength to your reasoning or argument (if anything it weakens it in my opinion).

That's all that needs to be said, unless you do know. In which case please fill us in.

You don’t know if the option is “ kei-car A” and “kei-car B”, though. And I seriously doubt it is for reasons I already posted earlier in this thread.

The option could very well be kei-car “A” and “car that the fanbase has actually put in their wishlists”.

This is the second hypothetical question that I've posed to you to enhance your perspective and again you've chosen to take it literally.

Since neither of us knows, stop bringing it up in an effort to save your argument. You don't know, I don't know, nobody in this thread knows, nobody on GTPlanet knows what the process is for PD to put cars in the game.

You want to try to make everyone believe that K-cars are the devil and are preventing us from cars that we really want. I believe that there is no choice and PD is putting the cars they can put into the game... into the game.

I am speaking for nearly everyone else, though. I’m speaking for the people who were disappointed by GT5’s car list, which is almost everyone.

LOL, you seriously don’t think there’s an abundance of posts on here criticizing GT5’s car list?

[Threads]

And the irritating part about me wasting thirty-minutes of my life posting all of these links is that deep-down, you already knew people were criticizing GT5’s car list because a) PD prioritized which cars should be standard and which cars should be premium incorrectly b) PD likely ignored the fanbases’ wishlists and put in the cars they wanted instead c) there’s duplicates d) the idea of standard cars making up 80% of the car list is annoying considering all the time they had to make the game.

BTW, I would love to make a poll asking “Are you satisfied with GT5’s car list?” I think you know how that would go.

Well done. Now I read most of those threads and comments and I didn't see too many people complaining about the inclusion of K-cars over the cars they would have preferred. Even if we added up the very, very, very long list of cars that people were complaining about having been excluded, it would tell me that they were going to be disappointed whether K-cars were included or not, since there's only 6 premium K-cars in the game.

You seem to be one of the few that makes the assumption that K-cars are forcing other cars out of the game. (***HYPOTHETICAL QUESTION ALERT***)So what happens if GT6 is released and there are no new K-cars and all of those desirable cars that people are requesting are still not in the game? Where's your argument then?

There’s plenty of suggestions in the feedback section and in peoples’ wishlists that PD hasn’t catered to. Too many.

There's also plenty of things that have been removed from the Feedback section after PD implemented them.

(***HYPOTHETICAL QUESTION ALERT***)Did you consider that maybe PD simply cannot do the things we want them to do, even if they agree with us?

I hope you seriously don't think PD has struck the perfect balance between listening to the fanbase and doing whatever they please. Such a thought would be pretty demeaning towards the GT fanbase.

It is when you put it your way. What I meant though was this:

I hope you seriously don't think PD has struck the perfect balance between listening to the fanbase and doing whatever they please can.

Well when put this way, I do think PD has struck a balance. And they seem to be listening to their fan-base more and more, so I'm not worried.

You’ve misquoted me for the second time now. I said PD “rarely” listens, not “never” listens. There’s a huge difference between those terms and how they affect the meaning of that sentence.

You've mis-interpreted what quotes are for the second time. But you're right, you did say rarely.

I would like to *pompously* point out that you did mis-quote me though. I did not say PD never listens to us. I said PD doesn't listen to us. The meaning might be somewhat the same, the difference is that you mis-quoted me. Just thought I'd point that out since you seem to be confused about the difference between quoting and paraphrasing/interpreting.

And why would I wonder why they would listen to us European and Americans at all when we account for a staggering 84.8% of GT5’s sales worldwide? They should be listening to us more often.

Do you like listening to a friend or co-worker who complains all the time? Do you listen to people that complain whenever you release so much as a trailer? Every single aspect of GT has been complained about by someone, somewhere, at some time it seems. So simply taking the complaints as reason to spur GT and PD to act isn't enough for me.

And I agree, it would be nice if they showed us they were listening a little bit more, but they're not obligated to do so. GT fans speak as a whole with their money and it's up to PD to make the right choices.

Another misquote there. I’ve been saying “vast majority” which is a lot different from “every GT player ever”. And yes, I still believe I’m representing the vast majority, who are all disappointed with the car list.

For the third time, I wasn't quoting you. There were no quotes involved. I did not accuse you of saying what I said. I simply said to you what I feel like you're saying. If that isn't what you're saying, then rephrase, 'cause that's what it sounds like you are to me.

I'm disappointed with the car list! You're not speaking for me. You're speaking for you, because you're disappointed that K-cars get included and other cars you would rather be driving do not. Thus you come to the conclusion that K-cars are the reason those cars were not included, which is preposterous.

Ultimately, all I can say is that I’m shocked you and a few other members would rather have kei-cars as opposed to having as many cars on your wishlists as possible. That just seems silly and rather odd to me. (SagarisGTB notwithstanding, as he’s the only one who has explicitly voiced that he wants two more kei-cars)

My wish list is not indicative of the desires of all GT Players. It would be selfish of me to think otherwise.

 

[TheEnd35000vr]

Because I don't see how driving simulator = a driving simulator of every type of vehicle known to man. Because by that logic they need tractors in GT to complete the driving simulation.

A game full of Ferrari's or even just full of sports cars can still be called a driving simulator because it's still simulating driving, I don't see how you can dispute that.

Ah right, gotcha. Didn't interpret what you said correctly.
And yes, that is basically what I was referring to, albeit not considering going to that extremities.

 

[avens]

Force them to somehow drop all the Kei cars and you'll perhaps get one more Ferrari and one RUF... and twenty more NASCARs. Good luck. [/COLOR]

Well that's a different issue (probably Kaz now is a redneck). Point is to make desirable cars a priority: a 40s tractor is not a game seller, but the latest Dodge Viper is (and nascars too, sadly)

That sums up this page completely.

 

[Flaco13]

You misread his statement. I’ve pushed a rather sporty car through a mountain pass to its limits in real-life.

What I was trying to say is that if you go top speeding a Daihatsu Cuore on the Autobahn those 170kph or whatever it does, appear fast to you (even though for many you'd be a moving obstacle).

In a game it appears to be slow because we are used to faster cars - The difference is that IRL the 'slowness' of the Cuore doesn't bother you too much, it's still fast and your body produces adrenaline, and this effect is not happening in a game(not in a car like that), so the car bores you. If your biased it'll bore you even more.

As for the Mountain pass I was referring to a ride home from work through the black forest in my '09 Corsa GSi, I just bought the car and didn't want to push it too hard but at some point I couldn't help it, you know how that is, so after that when I was home I had an idea on re-creating this ride on forza4 on that japanese passroad (forgot the name).

Using the vauxhall corsa vxr (Its basically the same car except for the brakes and ecu wich gives 196bhp to the vxr/OPC and 150bhp to the GSi and mines a 5door instead)
So this experience has led me to the conclusion that I expressed in my former post because that rather 'normal' powered car of mine was a way greater experience than driving the stock vxr on forza, it was more like when I take a fully or almost fully tuned one in the game, though it then has some 250+ bhp.

sorry I had to take the rival developers game for this because the Corsa in GT5 is no comparison.

 

[finnracer]

What I was trying to say is that if you go top speeding a Daihatsu Cuore on the Autobahn those 170kph or whatever it does, appear fast to you (even though for many you'd be a moving obstacle).

In a game it appears to be slow because we are used to faster cars - The difference is that IRL the 'slowness' of the Cuore doesn't bother you too much, it's still fast and your body produces adrenaline, and this effect is not happening in a game(not in a car like that), so the car bores you. If your biased it'll bore you even more.

As for the Mountain pass I was referring to a ride home from work through the black forest in my '09 Corsa GSi, I just bought the car and didn't want to push it too hard but at some point I couldn't help it, you know how that is, so after that when I was home I had an idea on re-creating this ride on forza4 on that japanese passroad (forgot the name).

Using the vauxhall corsa vxr (Its basically the same car except for the brakes and ecu wich gives 196bhp to the vxr/OPC and 150bhp to the GSi and mines a 5door instead)
So this experience has led me to the conclusion that I expressed in my former post because that rather 'normal' powered car of mine was a way greater experience than driving the stock vxr on forza, it was more like when I take a fully or almost fully tuned one in the game, though it then has some 250+ bhp.

sorry I had to take the rival developers game for this because the Corsa in GT5 is no comparison.

A very well-explained and clear post with evidence, well done Flaco13! So we need a better sense of speed rather than for any classes of cars to be removed, should keep everyone happy! 💡

 

[300SRT8Fan]

Whoah! What has this turned into?>

 

[Tvensky]

since I hate modern car designs especially new small cars i voted NO (I strongly prefer old school). I do like those small cars, but like I say'd I drive 80's, 90's small cars. I hope they will include, all modern I didn't even drive in GT5, well I did in some seasonals or similar. (I strongly didnt like it!)

PS. small FR, RR, 4WD cars all are good

 

[Duck149]

What gets me is why PD include small cr***y cars as opposed to classic racers (for example). I personally would be pleased to see old F1 cars, like the 70s and 80s along with a wider range of modifieble classic cars like maybe the db5 or 250gto - after all I never see people racing the lunchboxes like the micra, so they're surely a waste of PDs time..?

 

[Beeblebrox237]

...Stuff...

Allow me to comment on a few of your ideas. I myself was very happy with GT5's car list, and still am. Sure, there are cars that aren't in the game, but GT5 offers a great selection of fun cars.

And that brings me to my second point. Cars do not have to be fast to be fun. I find more enjoyment in driving a slow car fast than driving a fast car fast. The fact is, around 80 percent of the voters on the poll said that they want them. I don't see how the poll is misleading, it offers a simple yes/no question, and the players have spoken. I believe that you are in the minority in your views, and the poll backs me up.

Please explain to me how the poll is misleading, I'm listening.

 

[Duck149]

I respectfully disagree beeblebox, some small cars are enjoyable - but, for me, this doesn't last. PD could include more cars that feature in single make series, such as formula 3 or Porsche carrera. These being just one car model in different colours like the existing Renault Clio & lupo cup cars.

Also, how many of the hundreds of small cars do you use? Maybe the devs time could be used to provide a more comprehensive range of racing classes whilst still keeping a reduced array of k-cars or whatever? =P

 

[TriumphTT900]

PD needs to add more of EVERY kind of car!! We need more slow cars and more fast cars!! Got to thinking and realized there is no reason to remove any car.. Even cars like the practically useless tank car. Keep ALL the Miata and Skyline variants. Bring back cars that can only be found in previous games. Add more everyday cars. Add old underpowered early 20th century cars. Add more F1 cars. Put all that **** on 2 blurays and force me to upgrade my hdd, I dont care. More cars, not less. Done.

 

[Gatorbait771]

Only if they keep the Honda City

 

[IceMan PJN]

There should be all performance types, from F1-ish cars down to hamburger boxes. I've had races in low-end cars that were every bit as enjoyable as races in LMPs or NASCARs. However, we don't need to be buried in them like we were in GT5. It wouldn't surprise me if half the cars in GT5 were low-end soccer-mom cars with under 150 horsepower (stock) and if at least a quarter of them boasted fewer than 80 horses. That's a bit too much. PD should take more notes from Forza, because they've got a good mix of cars, not only in terms of nationality (versus mostly Japanese cars in GT) but also in performance distribution.

Add more F1 cars.

They can't do that. Codemasters holds the gaming rights to Formula One.

 

[Downhill Dino]

They don't have to be licensed. Exhibit A: FGT

 

[Stradivis]

Well, focusing on econo-cars (hybrids, electrics, cars made to run as much as possible on little to no fuel), I say no, thanks.

Nothing against key-cars and the likes, albeit there should be a bit more focus from PD in some historic racing monsters, more GT and LMP cars, etc.

But then, reflecting on the time we live, and how the industry is changing it's priorities, I'll sum my thoughts with a video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Q0Svvdrx_E

 

[jimmy gti]

My honest thaughts are, if those little boxes of turd are missing from GT6 i would not buy it, its the whole point of the game, no the WHOLE FRANCHISE. Take a crapper, spend some cash, tune, race, Become a giant slaying legend!!!

To me GT starts to get boring when i HAVE TO purchase a thorough bred just to be competative.