2014 United Sports Car Championship

[Swagger897]

I think at the end of the day...there is one thing we should be focusing on...and that there is a viable, highly competitive sports car series here in North America...

The 2 GT classes in particular are great...and like them or not, with NASCAR's deep pockets there will be money put behind this thing...

If the racing stays competitive, more and more teams/makes will be attracted to the series and it will only get better...

Things will be tweaked over time and will only get better...we have to remember we are bringing together two entirely different series with very different rules and trying to make it work...

If there was a clap emoji (not the disease) this would deserve it...

I'm not sure what got to me. If it was the old Peugeot and Audi rivalry that I used to know, or something about making a fit, it hit me.... But at least it was a fight, that ended on a bit of a low note for everyone. A simple overtake without the slip would've made the race a whole lot different...

 

[Omnis]

I guess you won't provide an explanation for how that last lap incident will affect Le Mans then?

It won't.

That's exactly what I thought, hence why I was confused why Omnis implied it would, I guess some random gifs will do instead though...

Of course it won't. Now stop being a wafflenoggin taking everything so seriously.

Ferrari vs. Audi is going to be so hype after what happened yesterday.

 

[Coenraad]

After following the Grand-Am and ALMS, i am not surprised the Ferrari did get a penalty. Similar penalties have been given on similar accidents. Thing is, he should have left more room. The only reason they did not collide was becourse the Audi was allready on it's way off and probably started lifting.

Problem is that now many are angry. However if they had not called it, they would have shown that, "look, it's fine to make yourself so wide the other guy has to go off track". And that is something they really don't want. I gues you all remember the 01 car being driven into the wall last season. That is what happens when you don't leave room on the exit.

So i think the stewards hands where tied here.

But hey, it sure as hell was a nice fight and a real shame about the GTLM fight that was spoiled.

 

[Bo]

I really don't think people understand that you can't stop a car drifting wide on the exit of a corner at that speed. Good to see the penalty overturned.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

I really don't think people understand that you can't stop a car drifting wide on the exit of a corner at that speed. Good to see the penalty overturned.

That's probably why so many people who play the game don't understand oversteer and understeer

 

[Coenraad]

When was the penalty overturned? No info on it on imsa.com yet.

Edit:
Nvm, i see they posted it on the Facebook page.

HSV010, i think it's about that many think the Ferarri should have lifted, as the Audi's nose was well past the Ferarri's. It is understandable that he could not steer in much further (i'm sure he could have steered some more inn, but probably barely half a car width.

But then again i am biased, as i dislike feraries.

I think the Flying Lizzard drivers knew though that it might be reversed. I noticed that when the afterrace interview was held while they where standing by the car they talked about being happy to be on the podium, and not so much about winning until the reporter put that into their mouth.

Interesting, and man i am happy i am not an official who has to decide these kind of things.

 

[01GTP]

I really don't think people understand that you can't stop a car drifting wide on the exit of a corner at that speed. Good to see the penalty overturned.

I really think you do not understand the officials.
It doesn't matter if you know how to drive or understand the physics, you have to understand the officials.
If you do then as Winkelhock you realize that Guidi has to allow another lane in that situation, until he clears you.
The same as the corner before where Winkelhock left room for Guidi.

Obviously Coenraad and I understand the officials as well as Winkelhock.

“It was an incredible last lap, and really tough racing,” said Winkelhock. I left him (Guidi) plenty of space (in the chicane) but he tried to put me in the grass and I went off.”

“It was an exciting last two laps,” Guidi said. “After 24 hours, we were so tired. But we didn't give up.”

 

[MustangManiac]

It was a bull**** call and I can't believe they actually did the right thing and reversed it. Yes, you could tell the Audi driver knew it in the post race interview, you weren't the only one to notice that. The anti-Ferrari bias was showing loud and clear throughout this thread...as usual.

 

[GOTMAXPOWER]

The anti-Ferrari bias was showing loud and clear throughout this thread...as usual.

Don't confuse anti-Scott Tucker bias with anti-Ferrari bias. I love Ferrari but...

 

[raven214]

Can anyone find a replay of the earlier contact between the 2 GTD cars in the bus stop? I only caught the tail end of it when I was watching the race and I didn't even realize it was with the lead Ferrari. I saw the last lap "contact" and will comment on it but want to see the prior incident.

 

[GOTMAXPOWER]

Can anyone find a replay of the earlier contact between the 2 GTD cars in the bus stop? I only caught the tail end of it when I was watching the race and I didn't even realize it was with the lead Ferrari. I saw the last lap "contact" and will comment on it but want to see the prior incident.

2:20 on this video:

 

[Coenraad]

I haven't read all the pages, but i would still think the penalty was right, even if the cars where swapped. Like i said in my first post i have seen similar actions be penalized in last years ALMS and Grand-Am season, so it only feels right. And that has nothing to do with me not liking Ferraris.

But lets face it, even the director and the raceboard did not agree.


Anyways, just to move on here. Now that the USSC is a fact, would this maybe open up for the DP's joining in at Le-Mans in the overseeable future? I know i would love to see them there, as i think they are very competative and look great.

 

[MustangManiac]

I haven't read all the pages, but i would still think the penalty was right, even if the cars where swapped. Like i said in my first post i have seen similar actions be penalized in last years ALMS and Grand-Am season, so it only feels right. And that has nothing to do with me not liking Ferraris.

But lets face it, even the director and the raceboard did not agree.


Anyways, just to move on here. Now that the USSC is a fact, would this maybe open up for the DP's joining in at Le-Mans in the overseeable future? I know i would love to see them there, as i think they are very competative and look great.

Sorry, but I can't move on from that. You have seen "avoidable contact" penalties given out in both the Grand-Am and ALMS series last year for cars that didn't even make contact? Somehow I must have missed those even though I watched every race.

 

[Tired Tyres]

Anyways, just to move on here. Now that the USSC is a fact, would this maybe open up for the DP's joining in at Le-Mans in the overseeable future? I know i would love to see them there, as i think they are very competative and look great.

Not a snowball in hells chance. A DP would not pass an FIA/ACO crash test.

IMSA had a chance yesterday of allowing this race to run naturally to the finish and blew it trying to set up a close finish with an inappropriate late yellow.

If they had allowed it to run naturally to its conclusion, endurance fans would be able to trust them to run the series with integrity as a sport.

Stunts like that belong in the "Sports Entertainment" series that owns this series and they have to be different from that in order to differentiate themselves and not become a competitor. They can't out compete NASCAR.

 

[Hun200kmh]

^^^^ well said. That late yellow was a joke on us viewers, on the teams and drivers. Suddenly I'm not watching a race, I'm watching a show.

 

[Bo]

I'm going to put down my final argument, and say that Winkelhock was not thinking when he made the move. It was akin to a little kid crashing on GT6 and then going into hyper rage mode and trying to pull stupid passes around the outside. It really doesn't matter if he was inches ahead, you still cannot make your car move from the outside line to the inside line. Going round the corner on the outside line at that speed will cause you to go off no matter how much space you have from another car. Nothing will ever justify a move around the outside like that unless you are on a track at least twice as wide as Daytona, because it's dangerous. That's the bottom line on this.

 

[Zuel]

2:20 on this video:

There was no foul in the turn either. The driver of the Audi drove in there knowing he didn't have room. Reminds me of some GT5 and GT6 drivers A LOT.
Thanks for the clip @GOTMAXPOWER

 

[Coenraad]

Sorry, but I can't move on from that. You have seen "avoidable contact" penalties given out in both the Grand-Am and ALMS series last year for cars that didn't even make contact? Somehow I must have missed those even though I watched every race.

It was only no contact becourse Winkelhock moved out of the way. Other than that he was still droven off track. So i find that similar.
But since we won't agree (goes for hsv010 as well) i am going to stop arguing and do move on. We don't see eye to eye on this one, so be it, don't let it ruin your day it doesn't ruin mine.

Not a snowball in hells chance. A DP would not pass an FIA/ACO crash test.

IMSA had a chance yesterday of allowing this race to run naturally to the finish and blew it trying to set up a close finish with an inappropriate late yellow.

If they had allowed it to run naturally to its conclusion, endurance fans would be able to trust them to run the series with integrity as a sport.

Stunts like that belong in the "Sports Entertainment" series that owns this series and they have to be different from that in order to differentiate themselves and not become a competitor. They can't out compete NASCAR.

That late yellow was a big surprise, as the off was not big at all. And why did they leave the safetycar out for that long? I didn't understand that. But hey, the last dash was exiting though, so it was both good and bad.

Could you explain a bit more as to why a DP would not pass such a crashtest? From what i've seen this weekend they are quite safe

 

[Bo]

There was no foul in the turn either. The driver of the Audi drove in there knowing he didn't have room.
Thanks for the clip @GOTMAXPOWER

Couldn't have summed it up better myself. It doesn't matter about room, driving round the outside at that speed can only end one way.

 

[MrWednesday]

That late yellow was a big surprise, as the off was not big at all. And why did they leave the safetycar out for that long? I didn't understand that. But hey, the last dash was exiting though, so it was both good and bad.

I believe the SC stays out as long as it does because of the pit and wave-around protocols.

 

[Third Reign]

I'm going to put down my final argument, and say that Winkelhock was not thinking when he made the move. It was akin to a little kid crashing on GT6 and then going into hyper rage mode and trying to pull stupid passes around the outside. It really doesn't matter if he was inches ahead, you still cannot make your car move from the outside line to the inside line. Going round the corner on the outside line at that speed will cause you to go off no matter how much space you have from another car. Nothing will ever justify a move around the outside like that unless you are on a track at least twice as wide as Daytona, because it's dangerous. That's the bottom line on this.

I want some of the stuff you're taking...

The way I see it is Winkelhock getting the run on the Ferrari out of the corner and committing to a legitimate passing attempt with tons of excess speed. Winkelhock respected all driving etiquette by leaving the inside line for the Ferrari to stay on track. On corner exit he did not receive the same space to survive on track, the Ferrari proceeded to just claim the outside line. Proper etiquette would have him lift off throttle a bit so he can drive a tighter line. Do I think a "avoidable contact" penalty is justified? No, there was no contact to begin with, that ruling is wrong. However there are penalties like "forcing driver off track", or at least they exist in FIA sanctioned races. Chances are a FIA event would have called it that way. Personally I think the move from the Ferrari was highly questionable, but in the end only a racing incident.

 

[Bo]

I agree fully that it's a racing incident.

However, if you look here:

The cars are side by side. No car is ahead of another, and the Ferrari has the racing line. The Audi is running across the Level 5 car like he is not there at all, and considering that the outside is a questionable and dangerous move anyway, I don't see Winkelhock as having thought it through that much. I don't appreciate that little side comment at the start however.

 

[Metfanant]

I believe the SC stays out as long as it does because of the pit and wave-around protocols.

i do think that is something that is going to have to change...i think the length of cautions was rather excessive to say the least...i understand it is because of the wave arounds and pit scenarios, but i thought it was too much...

i remember one caution...for a shredded tire, i believe at the bus stop...there was no need (IMO) for a 10 minute full course caution to remove that tire from the track...


As for this Audi/Ferrari penalty stuff...i dont think either of them are 100% in the right or 100% in the wrong...

- Could the Ferrari have slowed more to allow more room on the outside? surely, but i wouldnt want MY driver to give up that position right at the end of a 24hr race like, to a car that is taking a big risk going wide...

- Did the Audi take too much of a risk and put himself in trouble? absolutely, but i would want my driver to try and make a pass if he thought there was room, i like the aggressiveness, but not the outcome...

there are things both drivers should/could have done differently to avoid the incident but youre within a hair of the end of a 24hr race...if its my race team...im patting either of the guys on the back and telling them im proud of them for being aggressive and trying to get a win there...

 

[Coenraad]

If you look at the movie Third posted, you can see Winkelhock is allmost a 3rd of a carlenght ahead. But it starts off the corner before, becourse the Ferrari had a very bad exit, and Winkelhock just had to make the run, simply becourse he was that much faster.

i do think that is something that is going to have to change...i think the length of cautions was rather excessive to say the least...i understand it is because of the wave arounds and pit scenarios, but i thought it was too much...

i remember one caution...for a shredded tire, i believe at the bus stop...there was no need (IMO) for a 10 minute full course caution to remove that tire from the track...


As for this Audi/Ferrari penalty stuff...i dont think either of them are 100% in the right or 100% in the wrong...

- Could the Ferrari have slowed more to allow more room on the outside? surely, but i wouldnt want MY driver to give up that position right at the end of a 24hr race like, to a car that is taking a big risk going wide...

- Did the Audi take too much of a risk and put himself in trouble? absolutely, but i would want my driver to try and make a pass if he thought there was room, i like the aggressiveness, but not the outcome...

there are things both drivers should/could have done differently to avoid the incident but youre within a hair of the end of a 24hr race...if its my race team...im patting either of the guys on the back and telling them im proud of them for being aggressive and trying to get a win there...

Absolutely, they should have protocols for that. The wheel could have used a 1 lap SC and the last caution could have been a local yellow flag.


Has anyone more info on both drivers of the big crash? Last i heard was that the GT driver was doing okey and that Memo needed surgery to both his arm and leg. But not a word since. I'm curious to hear if and when they will be able to return to racing.
Also i think the TV crews did a great job turning away the cameras from the cars, in case there would be an un welcome sight.


Btw, did you guys notice the lack of spectators? It really surprised me, as i expected a way bigger crowd. I mean, there where barely any people at the grandstand

 

[Ninners]

The Audi marginally ahead entering the corner. Besides the penalty was overly harsh anyway.

 

[sumbrownkid]

All I see is that the Audi took a gamble and lost. The Ferrari really had to do nothing. It was the last lap of a 24 hour race, so you can't really fault both for going at it.

If anything, I think the Audi could have waited until they cleared the infield sections and draft the Ferrari to leapfrog him before the finish.

 

[GTPorsche]

All I see is that the Audi took a gamble and lost. The Ferrari really had to do nothing. It was the last lap of a 24 hour race, so you can't really fault both for going at it.

If anything, I think the Audi could have waited until they cleared the infield sections and draft the Ferrari to leapfrog him before the finish.

458 was faster on the oval. When Pier Guidi made a mistake at the bus stop 2 laps prior, it gave the lead to Winkelhock, but by the time they got back to the S/F line, Pier Guidi had gotten back around Winkelhock. A few laps prior to that, Winkelhock was drafting off Pier Guidi and was slowly falling back. I think Winkelhock knew the move had to be made as soon as he could in the infield section so he had a chance to pull away from Pier Guidi before they got on to the oval. He tried, and failed to pull off such a move.

Then again, he could have not rubbed against the 458 going into the corner prior to the kink and would have had a better run through that corner and pulled away more than he was able to before the off-track excursion happened.

 

[raven214]

@GOTMAXPOWER

Thanks for the link. 👍

Ok this is all my opinion of course and I respect those with differing views. To me, the Ferrari penalty was completely bogus! I'm not even touching the contact part. There was clearly no contact but I take that "avoidable contact" penalty as sort of a catch-all aggressive driving penalty rather than specifically for contact, at least that's how they appeared to be using it here.

Now, looking at the bus stop dust up, the camera angle is very poor for seeing what really happened. It does appear the Ferrari overturned on corner entry as if to block but the movement is exaggerated by the movement that results from them getting together. A better camera angle plus seeing wheel angle and steering inputs would help greatly but based off what we have I would call it a racing deal = no penalty.

Onto the main event, the phantom contact on the kink. To me, there is no question on this. It is 2 cars racing for the win. The Audi was taking a huge gamble with that move and it didn't work out. That's racing, and the Ferrari should never have been penalized for that. If the Ferrari had forced the Audi off the track or caused him to spin out that's one thing, but he appeared to actually leave a lane open on exit, albeit a small one, and there was no contact at all - just good close racing.

The Audi either carried too much speed and took himself off track, or he went off to avoid contact instead of fighting for the line. In either case it is not the Ferrari's fault. It's just another racing deal = no penalty.

I think it's worth mentioning that I am not biased in favor of Ferrari. I don't know the drivers or teams involved, and I actually favor the R8 over anything Ferrari. In fact, I would give up Ferrari in an instant if it would get Porsche into GT6. I call incidents like this impartially as I see them, and am happy to tell my allegiances when present.

I'll close with this: if I were the owner of either team I would want those drivers to do exactly as they did: be respectful of eachother but go for the win! We should never penalize good racing like that, and IMSA should be ashamed and embarrassed for making that call. At least they got it right in the end. You could even tell when they did the post-race interview with the Audi driver - he knew he didn't earn the win. And I would have liked nothing better than to see that Audi make the pass stick and take the victory!

 

[Zuel]

I agree fully that it's a racing incident.

However, if you look here:
View attachment 107004

The cars are side by side. No car is ahead of another, and the Ferrari has the racing line. The Audi is running across the Level 5 car like he is not there at all, and considering that the outside is a questionable and dangerous move anyway, I don't see Winkelhock as having thought it through that much. I don't appreciate that little side comment at the start however.

I want some of the stuff you're taking...

The way I see it is Winkelhock getting the run on the Ferrari out of the corner and committing to a legitimate passing attempt with tons of excess speed. Winkelhock respected all driving etiquette by leaving the inside line for the Ferrari to stay on track. On corner exit he did not receive the same space to survive on track, the Ferrari proceeded to just claim the outside line. Proper etiquette would have him lift off throttle a bit so he can drive a tighter line. Do I think a "avoidable contact" penalty is justified? No, there was no contact to begin with, that ruling is wrong. However there are penalties like "forcing driver off track", or at least they exist in FIA sanctioned races. Chances are a FIA event would have called it that way. Personally I think the move from the Ferrari was highly questionable, but in the end only a racing incident.

Winkelhock took a chance and failed, he knew taking the outside line was a gamble and he lost. It doesn't matter if he was ahead or not going to the apex, but going into a apex from the outside will always have you drift out a little and he paid for it.

ADDITION:
We must remember cars don't drive themselves and those cars aren't TRANSFORMERS. Can we get out of the GT5P/5/6 mindset of thinking.

 

[MustangManiac]

My final post on the matter, picture provided by Racer mag. It looks pretty clear in this shot that with 12 inches or so between the cars that the Audi is headed for the weeds, he took the high/outside line and drifted wide. That's some fine, hard clean racing to me 👍