2014 United Sports Car Championship

[Swagger897]

If someone is going to try and argue the events after this great picture Mustang put up, then I think perhaps those people should take the hobby in a casual manner and leave the fanatical talk to others. It's asinine for people to push on after other images have proved the notion wrong that Winklehock was victim, he wasn't. He screwed himself. Once again I don't see how people can play both sides of the field and say that Audi was wronged on both laps. If you think the Ferrari hip checked the Audi the lap prior, then you must believe that the Audi tried to compromise the racing line that Ferrari was on during the last lap.

Even you said it yourself as Ferrari was on the racing line...

You serious? The Ferrari had a shallow entry to the corner, causing it to have a different apex than a car with a wide entry, like your pictures showed. The optimal racing line therefore changed, with a much earlier apex and a wider exit. I can mock up a quickie demo on paint for you if you want.

obviously, otherwise both of their moments of inertia would've been the same and they keep on rolling as if they were at speeds under 15 mph.

I understand how the hell a car works and weight transfer through a turn, entry speeds and sway bars and stuff, but I don't see why people say "Ferrari had the racing line"...

 

[aarror]

Even you said it yourself as Ferrari was on the racing line...


obviously, otherwise both of their moments of inertia would've been the same and they keep on rolling as if they were at speeds under 15 mph.

I understand how the hell a car works and weight transfer through a turn, entry speeds and sway bars and stuff, but I don't see why people say "Ferrari had the racing line"...

The Ferrari was ahead, it's pretty simple. Rule #1 when racing is that it is the responsibility of the driver behind to orchestrate a clean passing move. The Audi had a very slim chance of staying on the road, especially considering the Ferrari's trajectory. The defending driver, in this case the Ferrari, is allowed to maintain his racing line to a point. The pictures clearly show he left (barely) 1 car width, so he did his part. If there was a wall on the outside the Audi driver would have never attempted the move, because he more than likely would have ended up in the wall. I hate level 5, and was cheering for the Lizards but that penalty was total BS.

 

[Swagger897]

The Ferrari was ahead, it's pretty simple. Rule #1 when racing is that it is the responsibility of the driver behind to orchestrate a clean passing move. The Audi had a very slim chance of staying on the road, especially considering the Ferrari's trajectory. The defending driver, in this case the Ferrari, is allowed to maintain his racing line to a point. The pictures clearly show he left (barely) 1 car width, so he did his part. If there was a wall on the outside the Audi driver would have never attempted the move, because he more than likely would have ended up in the wall. I hate level 5, and was cheering for the Lizards but that penalty was total BS.

I'm sorry, but exactly what pictures are you referring to, the auto mag above, or these, which describe the car lengths ahead

If anything, the Audi was ahead going in,(by a foot or one half) braked as the 458 did causing them to hold almost parallel, and then the Ferrari could get the inside advantage, no different then Winkelhock did coming around the horseshoe. He probably didn't expect it to accelerate that quickly, but he lost at least a half second by going for the outside pass that Guidi cut off.

To me, it's no different when in 2011 Peugeot blocked Audi on the pit straight and squeezed Allan (I think) to not let him pass. If Allan tried to make a pass after the pit exit, he wouldn't have enough road to pass him safely and go in the sand. No different than what happened here, except the road is a bit wider and is slightly cambered.

 

[aarror]

I'm sorry, but exactly what pictures are you referring to, the auto mag above, or these, which describe the car lengths ahead


If anything, the Audi was ahead going in,(by a foot or one half) braked as the 458 did causing them to hold almost parallel, and then the Ferrari could get the inside advantage, no different then Winkelhock did coming around the horseshoe. He probably didn't expect it to accelerate that quickly, but he lost at least a half second by going for the outside pass that Guidi cut off.

To me, it's no different when in 2011 Peugeot blocked Audi on the pit straight and squeezed Allan (I think) to not let him pass. If Allan tried to make a pass after the pit exit, he wouldn't have enough road to pass him safely and go in the sand. No different than what happened here, except the road is a bit wider and is slightly cambered.

Doesn't matter if the Audi is ahead by a few millimeters, he is the one making the overtake. Thought I made that clear enough, but I guess not. It is the responsibility of the car overtaking to make a clean pass! The Audi is the one trying to overtake the Ferrari in this instance. The Ferrari did nothing wrong in that situation, he even left enough room on exit for both cars. (See picture below)

http://users.gtpla.net/forum/attachments/screen_shot_2014-01-26_at_3235_540269-png.107207/

As for your 2011 Le Mans reference, I'm afraid I'm not familiar with the incident you're mentioning, sorry.

I guess I just don't understand your reasoning, do you just want the drivers to pull over when someone gets near them? God forbid someone try to defend first position on the last lap of one of the biggest races of the season, eh?

 

[Bo]

I'm sorry but I still don't understand the anti-pass group. Some are saying that it is racing, and that's that. Some say as you do as it was a jerk move, but that isn't the point. The R8 had better acceleration, otherwise he would've gotten a penalty ramming into him, and the Ferrari could've taken a quick spin... He pulled out to make a pass, and that's something we all do when we think "we got you know" sorta moment, just as Winkelhock did...

It isn't a dangerous move, they all know what they will be in for when they sit in the seat. That is something we don't know in GT so unless you drive professionally I don't see how you can say it is dangerous or not.

I'd like to ask you what is you opinion on ralley and should any spectators be allowed within a football field of the course, or the course to go inside city limits. Is that dangerous, or is that racing?

But most importantly, the damage caused I think is what killed him. He (speculation) could've probably made the turn without the damage, as he never really got to turn the car full left after contact.

The penalty? It was harsh. It should've only been awarded if all 4 tires went off, which Winkelhock could've easily done so to make it seem that much worse.

Racing is like poker. You show you poker face, call your bluff, take a hit, and leave off of luck. It was unfortunate luck to Flying Lizard however, because with the 20 minutes left I really think the 2 second advantages Winkelhock had would've won, without the contact or the bus stop cut...

I don't have to be a professional racing driver to tell you you cannot just fly around the outside of someone and expect to make it. Whatever room was given still doesn't affect that he expected the Ferrari not to be there, which is utterly stupid. The only way it could have worked is if the Ferrari had slammed the brakes on when they were side by side and let the Audi drive past. And, why yes, there is something called a dangerous move in motorsport. Once he pulled alongside the Level 5 car, he should have used his brain and pulled out, so he could then cut back to the left as the Ferrari ran out wide. But the Ferrari left well enough room, as demonstrated by the picture. For those who say the picture only shows one moment, it doesn't need to show any others. That is the point where the Audi has left the track, and there is actually a car width, so he could have made the move stick if he hadn't flipped into rage mode and gone for a full throttle pass that could only end one way. It's dangerous.

 

[Coenraad]

Guys, with all respect for this discussion, honestly think we should drop it and move on before things get ugly. The penalty was revoked and the results are now final.
We can discuss untill we are blue in the face, agrue untill next year but for what? We all have our opinions, and we should respect the for what they are and lets face it, noone of us is going to convince the other, and that is just fine.

There are just so many different views, both personaly and in racing series. Like in USSC you will get a penalty for contact long before you will get one in DTM. So people who watch DTM allot will have a totaly different view of what is acceptable then those watching USSC.

 

[Bo]

👍
End of the arguments. The last few pages have seen some pointless comments, so we should just agree to disagree and move on from it.

 

[Furinkazen]

http://www.autoextremist.com/fumes1...f-major-league-sports-car-racing-a-bitte.html

Opinions?

 

[Tired Tyres]

I broadly agree with him apart from the DP vs P2 issue. He is being excessively negative overall though.

DP without changes would be faster than P2 around Daytona as it would be around some of the other circuits as well. P2, PC & GTE without changes would annihilate a DP around some other circuits.

 

[Wardez]

http://www.autoextremist.com/fumes1...f-major-league-sports-car-racing-a-bitte.html

Opinions?

There's a hyperbolic snobby slant to his writing that he could've done without, but it's an opinion blog, so I let it slide. The information he presented was great and the summary/history recap was good and succinct imo.

I totally agree with this though:

"We regret the fact that we insulted long-suffering road racing fans with this piss-poor 'show' that we presented today. It was stupid, contrived and yes, everything you feared it would be. We're going to go back to the drawing board and fix the competitive aspect of the series - especially between the P2 and DP entries - we're going to do away with "phantom" cautions of any kind, and we're going to let the races unfold without manipulation, as it should be. We deeply apologize."

They do need to do that, they need to actually make it a fight between DPs and P2s. Adopt more appropriate modern rules and procedure and that should do it. The GT racing was great.

I'll check out the next couple races, but if it's more of the same, I see no reason to keep watching.

 

[01GTP]

From a Q and A with Scot Elkins.

Just to help clear up what the initial penalty was for and how it was overturned.

Q: You said it has been overturned. Can you actually say why it was overturned? It was announced on the TV as avoidable contact. Clearly there was no contact. Is that why it's been overturned?

S.E.: No, the avoidable contact regulation is actually quite clear in the rule book, as well. It's called avoidable contact, but contact isn't necessarily needed to invoke the penalty. The review was that in sitting down and looking at the regulations and looking at the decision that was made by the race director and looking at the situational items respective to the contact that happened in that specific area … sorry, I don't mean to say contact, the incident that happened in that specific area, we came to the conclusion that, as we do many times in race control and many times during an event, that it was a racing incident, one that was not deemed a penalty.



Q: There was an incident I think in the previous lap or maybe the lap before between the 555 and the 45. What was deemed from that incident, and did that play a factor into any of this?

S.E.: No, every incident is judged on its own accord. I know I've spoken with you about it a number of times, I've spoken with Marshall about it a number of times. The information we have in race control is the information we have to base our decisions off of, whether people like it or not. We don't see every piece of contact that occurs on the racetrack. It's somewhat limited by the cameras that we have and the views that we have outside of race control. This was solely about this single incident.



Q: And that ruling from that incident before, that was just deemed a racing incident?

S.E.: Correct.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

Look at the guy in the picture he thinks highly of himself obviously on this subject and seems like a salty prune of a guy and his writing seems to reflect it.

 

[Furinkazen]

There's a hyperbolic snobby slant to his writing that he could've done without, but it's an opinion blog, so I let it slide. The information he presented was great and the summary/history recap was good and succinct imo.

I totally agree with this though:



They do need to do that, they need to actually make it a fight between DPs and P2s. Adopt more appropriate modern rules and procedure and that should do it. The GT racing was great.

I'll check out the next couple races, but if it's more of the same, I see no reason to keep watching.

Cautions needn't be as long. 3 laps for gathering field up and allowing GT and P cars to pit? Yeah. Another 5 minutes of yellow laps? No.

 

[LancerEvo7]

The caution thing isn't new. There was a race a couple years ago where they genuinely needed one with about 10 minutes left and had just enough time left to do one lap. It's happened every year since.

 

[01GTP]

Look at page 70 and so on to understand why the full coarse caution is as many laps as it is.
Seems appropriate to me and nothing new.

There is all the info you need in this publication.

http://www.imsa.com/sites/default/files/uploads/2014 IMSA TUDOR Championship Rules 010514.pdf

 

[Coenraad]

Man that guy is negative. What does he expect? I am quite sure IMSA is doing their best to balance out the different cars inside the various classes.
I actualy did not find the difference between P2 and DP to be too big. I mean the Muscle Milk guys where doing quite well. The Tequila Petrone team maybe not so much but hey, even some DP's where way behind so what is the difference?

This is the first year of P2 and DP's combined and there will be more chances made trough out the season. So that next year we'll have a even tighter battle between P2 and DP cars.

Agreed that he has some points about the yellow, wich could/should have been shorter, and after the complains i am quite sure the IMSA board will look at this for the next races.

Tbh that guy can whine whatever he wants, if he thinks he is so important.

 

[IforceV8]

http://www.gordonkirby.com/categories/columns/theway/2014/the_way_it_is_no418.html

 

[MrWednesday]

It is the responsibility of the car overtaking to make a clean pass!

In other sanctioning bodies, the full responsibility is put on the overtaking car, but interestingly (per the rules at the link just posted) IMSA puts the requirement for a safe pass on both cars. Rule 48.1, "It is the responsibility of both the overtaking Driver and the Driver being overtaken to assure safe overtaking."

 

[Metfanant]

http://www.gordonkirby.com/categories/columns/theway/2014/the_way_it_is_no418.html

thank God for the GTLM and GTD classes...particularly GTLM...

 

[Swagger897]

I just don't understand how I'm supposed to change the fact the Flying Lizard was already all the way right, so there's not like he had anywhere to go unless there was room....

 

[Hun200kmh]

"You know, there's not a lot of trust left in motor racing. There used to be a lot of trust in the paddock. You could talk to people pretty candidly and they got it. But now, everybody looks at you with a sour eye. They don't trust you. It's like the government. They want to do it for you. They don't think you can take care of yourself. "

Quote of the day. It depicts a sad state of affairs, but someone must say these things before they become the undisputed norm.

EDIT - And thanks @lforceV8 for that link 👍

 

[Earth]

http://www.autoextremist.com/fumes1...f-major-league-sports-car-racing-a-bitte.html

Opinions?

http://www.gordonkirby.com/categories/columns/theway/2014/the_way_it_is_no418.html

 

[RyantheTemp]

http://www.autoextremist.com/fumes1...f-major-league-sports-car-racing-a-bitte.html

Opinions?

It seems to me that IMSA is in a no win situation. Even from the announcement of the merger, some people were immediately negative towards the series, without knowing a single thing. Sure there are issues, and certainly the concerns raised by the actual teams need to be addressed. However, there has to be the expectation of growing pains, and the balancing of DP and P2 is just going to be a rocky road. I also don't think the difference between DP and P2 was as extreme as some were saying. OAK Racing turned in the second fastest lap of the day, and if not for the alternator failure early on, probably would have been up front near the end. It seemed like a lot of the P2 machines were hitting mechanical issues, but some seemed to have the potential to find some pace in the cars. Also, lets not forget that Daytona is new to these P2 teams, the DP guys would have more experience. It will be interesting to see how Sebring plays out, as the roles will reverse there. Also, let's not pretend that balance of power is unique problem to this series. Just last year Audi and Toyota were battling it out over adjustments heading into LeMans, and every year F1 has new regulations that have teams scrambling to find an edge.

I am holding out judgement on everything until the season is over, and I hope everything does get sorted out, because I really want to see sports car series thrive here in the US. The one thing I have learned is that, in motorsports, someone is always complaining about something; whether it is complaining about Sebastian Vettel, Ferrari, this track isn't on the schedule, that penalty is unfair, etc. I think you have to get above that noise occasionally and hope that overall things are going in the right direction. I'm not sure if that is the case yet here, but I'm willing to give it time.

 

[Wilbur]

I haven't really been on lately but I will say after being there in person, it was a pretty nice day all together. Everyone seemed happen and even larger crowds compared to last year to me.

I'm sure the whole wreck with the 99 has been beat to death, I was standing right there when it happened but turned around a few seconds before. I don't even remember hearing a hit or anything so I was confused for the longest time of what actually happened.

Overall I have fallen in love with the R8's! Those things look sexy as hell and the new BMW aren't too bad either. I will finally get down pat a way to watch the race since we had a hotel this year (I want to rent RV but nothing is cheap enough).

 

[aarror]

In other sanctioning bodies, the full responsibility is put on the overtaking car, but interestingly (per the rules at the link just posted) IMSA puts the requirement for a safe pass on both cars. Rule 48.1, "It is the responsibility of both the overtaking Driver and the Driver being overtaken to assure safe overtaking."

Huh, weird. I've never heard of any series with rules like that. Thanks for pointing that out.

 

[IforceV8]

It seems to me that IMSA is in a no win situation. Even from the announcement of the merger, some people were immediately negative towards the series, without knowing a single thing. Sure there are issues, and certainly the concerns raised by the actual teams need to be addressed. However, there has to be the expectation of growing pains, and the balancing of DP and P2 is just going to be a rocky road. I also don't think the difference between DP and P2 was as extreme as some were saying. OAK Racing turned in the second fastest lap of the day, and if not for the alternator failure early on, probably would have been up front near the end. It seemed like a lot of the P2 machines were hitting mechanical issues, but some seemed to have the potential to find some pace in the cars. Also, lets not forget that Daytona is new to these P2 teams, the DP guys would have more experience. It will be interesting to see how Sebring plays out, as the roles will reverse there. Also, let's not pretend that balance of power is unique problem to this series. Just last year Audi and Toyota were battling it out over adjustments heading into LeMans, and every year F1 has new regulations that have teams scrambling to find an edge.

Yes they ran the 2nd fastest lap overall (+.7) but looking at all the lap times they were no threat to the #5 car.The #5 ran the 7 fastest laps of the race and overall the laps under 1:40.6 were 42-9 in favor of the #5 DP over the #42 P2 car.The Oreca Nissan was on avg.2 sec per lap slower but they had very little time with that car so that was to be taken into account.

I expect a front row lock-out of Nissan's at Sebring and the DP's to have alot of gearbox issues because of the bumps and the extra HP.

 

[m00ndancer]

A quote from Radio Lemans forums, and I agree totally. RML is the radioshow for sportcar racing, with excellent coverage and knowledge. I'll put some of the most interesting facts as bold.

The Rolex left me underwhelmed, but it was very difficult to really follow the race. I can't say whether it didn't deliver on my expectations, or that I missed so much of it that I just never became immersed in it. You can only have so much fun staring at a timing screen and your twitter feed.

The big problem this series has to deal with is content delivery. Most of these races are going to air on a network that's available in a mere 37 million US homes. The radio coverage is an embarrassment, at best. Apparently, there is no plan to ever broadcast qualifying, nevermind practice. If you're not connecting with, or meeting the base expecations of, the core fan base, it will just trundle along with pitiful attendance and broadcast figures just like Grand-Am did.

 

[m00ndancer]

Yes they ran the 2nd fastest lap overall (+.7) but looking at all the lap times they were no threat to the #5 car.The #5 ran the 7 fastest laps of the race and overall the laps under 1:40.6 were 42-9 in favor of the #5 DP over the #42 P2 car.The Oreca Nissan was on avg.2 sec per lap slower but they had very little time with that car so that was to be taken into account.

I expect a front row lock-out of Nissan's at Sebring and the DP's to have alot of gearbox issues because of the bumps and the extra HP.

I wouldn't hold my breath, IMSA has stated that they will BoP every race. All in the name of reality TV show style racing.

 

[Swagger897]

A quote from Radio Lemans forums, and I agree totally. RML is the radioshow for sportcar racing, with excellent coverage and knowledge. I'll put some of the most interesting facts as bold.

Which is why I want Eurosport in America. Don't they show everything in Le Mans from scrutineering to the trucks leaving?

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

Which is why I want Eurosport in America. Don't they show everything in Le Mans from scrutineering to the trucks leaving?

Ah yes the good old truck leavings of Le Mans it's quite a spectacle, as they all leave and nicely letting each other cut in line to leave. I wonder if the Audi truck will leave first again this year to hurry back and prepare for another w...

Thanks for the laughs swagger