2014 United Sports Car Championship

[MrWednesday]

And then the next picture in sequence may show the Ferrari tracking out onto the curbing and leaving the Audi nowhere to go.

I'm not saying that this is what happened, but your picture is not remotely dispositive. A still proves nothing (except what was happening at one instant in time).

 

[Hun200kmh]

Whatever thr next still would show, the question is ... faced with a banzai move that will require my cooperation to be successful, should I cooperate? Should I lift, even brake, when the other driver should have lifted before and not do a "hail mary" pass, a last gasp attempt.

It was a brave move, but with this possible outcome. He took the gamble, and wasn't lucky. No fault to him, but no fault to the 555 driver too. Racing at its best, lets move on.

 

[Swagger897]

I'm going to put down my final argument, and say that Winkelhock was not thinking when he made the move. It was akin to a little kid crashing on GT6 and then going into hyper rage mode and trying to pull stupid passes around the outside. It really doesn't matter if he was inches ahead, you still cannot make your car move from the outside line to the inside line. Going round the corner on the outside line at that speed will cause you to go off no matter how much space you have from another car. Nothing will ever justify a move around the outside like that unless you are on a track at least twice as wide as Daytona, because it's dangerous. That's the bottom line on this.

I'm sorry but I still don't understand the anti-pass group. Some are saying that it is racing, and that's that. Some say as you do as it was a jerk move, but that isn't the point. The R8 had better acceleration, otherwise he would've gotten a penalty ramming into him, and the Ferrari could've taken a quick spin... He pulled out to make a pass, and that's something we all do when we think "we got you know" sorta moment, just as Winkelhock did...

It isn't a dangerous move, they all know what they will be in for when they sit in the seat. That is something we don't know in GT so unless you drive professionally I don't see how you can say it is dangerous or not.

I'd like to ask you what is you opinion on ralley and should any spectators be allowed within a football field of the course, or the course to go inside city limits. Is that dangerous, or is that racing?

But most importantly, the damage caused I think is what killed him. He (speculation) could've probably made the turn without the damage, as he never really got to turn the car full left after contact.

The penalty? It was harsh. It should've only been awarded if all 4 tires went off, which Winkelhock could've easily done so to make it seem that much worse.

Racing is like poker. You show you poker face, call your bluff, take a hit, and leave off of luck. It was unfortunate luck to Flying Lizard however, because with the 20 minutes left I really think the 2 second advantages Winkelhock had would've won, without the contact or the bus stop cut...

 

[Mac K]

JC France was in the post race celebration, can't believe nobody noticed..

 

[Organ-Donor]

Great racing. My only complaint is the bogus yellow. And the block by the Ferrari on the BMW that was chasing the Porsche in GTLM.

 

[hawkeye122]

If the Audi was that hot out of the corner, he could've waited, and tried to get him onto the banking OR out-braked him into/through the bus stop. Wincklehock was going much quicker than Guidi, he should have waited.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

View attachment 107207

My final post on the matter, picture provided by Racer mag. It looks pretty clear in this shot that with 12 inches or so between the cars that the Audi is headed for the weeds, he took the high/outside line and drifted wide. That's some fine, hard clean racing to me 👍

If someone is going to try and argue the events after this great picture Mustang put up, then I think perhaps those people should take the hobby in a casual manner and leave the fanatical talk to others. It's asinine for people to push on after other images have proved the notion wrong that Winklehock was victim, he wasn't. He screwed himself. Once again I don't see how people can play both sides of the field and say that Audi was wronged on both laps. If you think the Ferrari hip checked the Audi the lap prior, then you must believe that the Audi tried to compromise the racing line that Ferrari was on during the last lap.

 

[Swagger897]

If someone is going to try and argue the events after this great picture Mustang put up, then I think perhaps those people should take the hobby in a casual manner and leave the fanatical talk to others. It's asinine for people to push on after other images have proved the notion wrong that Winklehock was victim, he wasn't. He screwed himself. Once again I don't see how people can play both sides of the field and say that Audi was wronged on both laps. If you think the Ferrari hip checked the Audi the lap prior, then you must believe that the Audi tried to compromise the racing line that Ferrari was on during the last lap.

But don't you see how much room there is on the left? The Audi was on the white line all the away up until the both clipped the apex. After that, it's a straight line so the Ferrari made it look like you had to turn. We all watched the race and I saw multiple times the Ferrari hug the inside... But I'm going to drop if for now, because I've shown my side...

If the Audi was that hot out of the corner, he could've waited, and tried to get him onto the banking OR out-braked him into/through the bus stop. Wincklehock was going much quicker than Guidi, he should have waited.

The r8 didn't have straight line speed after the hit, and had more fuel than the Ferrari...

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

But don't you see how much room there is on the left? The Audi was on the white line all the away up until the both clipped the apex. After that, it's a straight line so the Ferrari made it look like you had to turn. We all watched the race and I saw multiple times the Ferrari hug the inside... But I'm going to drop if for now, because I've shown my side...

You do realize the race line runs out to the outside of that straight line. Also we saw prior the he had the line both went hard into the turn and both had oversteer step out when coming out of the turn and getting back on the power. The Ferrari wasn't not constantly on the line, he gave room and the Audi ran out of it because he was on the outside.

It's been explained the evidence has been given and proven and it's been overturned, yet people want to still say Ferrari was in the wrong. I think most of you are saying it based on the animosity of the lap before with the hip check. I understand that but you now need to quit being myopic and look at it impartially, if you can't do that then it's a wonderful think that some here will never be race directors or stewards.

 

[raven214]

We must remember cars don't drive themselves and those cars aren't TRANSFORMERS. Can we get out of the GT5P/5/6 mindset of thinking.

You mean they weren't doing a 2 lap race on racing softs with wear off???

 

[Swagger897]

1. I'm not saying Ferrari should be given any more flak about the situation. It is the fact people are not accepting the penalty may have been triggered, NOT CAUSED BY THIS INCIDENT, but the meetings between the two in the final hour, specifically with the Ferrari being looked at as the antagonist.
A. The bus stop - we all saw that the Audi was hit, not the Ferrari got hit. The Audi was (at best) eased off the line, but incurred damage...
B. The Ferrari went through the bus stop, gaining nowhere from a second or more time, as very little effort was due to stop the car. Otherwise, we would've seen another NASCAR caution with a reversed driver on track because of any effort put forth..
All I'm saying is, the events that lead up to the penalty are what caused it. Do you honestly think the IMSA wasn't watching these two and taking notes?

2. The Audi went into the pits for its final stop. It seems whenever an Audi stops within 45 minutes of the end of the race, they always are doomed, but that is a different league that I base that off of.. The LV5 team did a great job of fuel management, but the R8 just barely got by. Still, it was heavier and could not make the last assault through the infield and then the outfield blunder..

3. There was no way the Audi, with full tank or not, could've made it around the Ferrari on the straight. It's too fat, and has a larger DC. The only spot he could block the Ferrari was through the second to last turn before the banking, and then pull away onto the banking. There was no way the R8 would win though so could you please accept that. I'm not saying that it's unfair to Flying Lizard, or Level 5, but the penalty should've been made with just cause, which I thought there was legitimate reasoning BASED ON PREVIOUS INSTANCES. If all 4 wheels went off and the ruling was reversed, I would be very upset about it as it would be reckless driving, no matter how you argue it. Sure he only got two off, but what I'm griping about is the officiating done poorly...

Please, I'm not taking sides, as I hate American racing series.... All of them. They are all centered around NASCAR in my belief, allowing no innovation themselves but yet they invite others to only be beaten by "unfair racing". Prototype challenge? No, the challenge is not making a mockery of themselves by going to Rolex 24... They want to go to the WEC? HELL no they shouldn't be allowed. Not after what the Frances have done to LMP1 in America. I'm glad the WEC has now a proper venue to go to and am pleased with how they handle situations in a more professional way. Although the 2013 Le Mans was a bit over stressed with cautions, they couldn't have done a better job after the first few solemn laps...

 

[Metfanant]

Please, I'm not taking sides, as I hate American racing series.... All of them. They are all centered around NASCAR in my belief, allowing no innovation themselves but yet they invite others to only be beaten by "unfair racing". Prototype challenge? No, the challenge is not making a mockery of themselves by going to Rolex 24... They want to go to the WEC? HELL no they shouldn't be allowed. Not after what the Frances have done to LMP1 in America. I'm glad the WEC has now a proper venue to go to and am pleased with how they handle situations in a more professional way. Although the 2013 Le Mans was a bit over stressed with cautions, they couldn't have done a better job after the first few solemn laps...

http://img.pandawhale.com/43689-Christian-Bale-*****-wtf-gif-4Vsk.gif

 

[raven214]

If there's anything I could see the Ferrari getting penalized for, it is the bus stop contact, but that didn't happen. If the officials had wanted to penalize then they had the chance. The way he turned in so far was odd, but the camera angle is not helping either - we can't tell how hard the Audi was pushing going into the breaking zone or who had position on entry. The officials would be in the wrong to say "well you (Ferrari) might have committed a foul in the bus stop so we're going to penalize you because there was a second 'incident' even though it was at most questionable but definitely not clear cut."

We shouldn't even be having this discussion, of course, as I wholeheartedly agree that the late caution was unnecessary and artificial-feeling. IMSA really needs to get their act together regarding local yellows and quick debris pick up. Going through a full caution pit cycle because someone has an off but keeps rolling is such a waste. I can only hope IMSA learned their lesson because there was some great competition out of the box for the new series and I really want it to succeed. All the classes seem nice and close except P where the poor P2s were left in the dust. Not sure how IMSA missed the mark that badly with the BoP but hopefully they get it straightened out for Sebring.

 

[MrWednesday]

If someone is going to try and argue the events after this great picture Mustang put up

Which shows one moment in time. Not what came after. The only thing it proves is that at that specific moment there was enough room for both cars. In another second, there may not have been.

 

[Zuel]

You mean they weren't doing a 2 lap race on racing softs with wear off???

LOL, this made my night!!!

Addition:
Racing soft's period.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

Which shows one moment in time. Not what came after. It's proof of nothing.

Uh it shows the moment right before the Audi went off into the grass go to website and read and it will show why the picked that specific frame. It does indeed prove room was given or as much as possible was attempted during hard racing. If you don't know what happened and your angle is to argue "well it's only one moment in time" there is a lovely video a couple pages back and other photos to help you piece stuff together.

@Swagger897 NASCAR isn't the priority foundation of these racing series so your premise is wrong, the reason we say it here is because NASCAR actually has a stake in this series.

 

[Swagger897]

http://img.pandawhale.com/43689-Christian-Bale-*****-wtf-gif-4Vsk.gif

Yeah.... Did go a bit off topic but wanted that out there...

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

Yeah.... Did go a bit off topic but wanted that out there...

I think he finds it quite strange you'd want to comment on the subject with such apathy on said subject

 

[MrWednesday]

Uh it shows the moment right before the Audi went off into the grass go to website and read and it will show why the picked that specific frame. It does indeed prove room was given or as much as possible was attempted during hard racing. If you don't know what happened and your angle is to argue "well it's only one moment in time" there is a lovely video a couple pages back and other photos to help you piece stuff together.

The videos I've seen looked like the Ferrari did not maintain racing room and forced the Audi to either make contact or leave the racing surface. Whether the Audi was entitled to racing room is open to question*. If you assert (as I thought you did) that the Audi was not entitled to racing room, then the picture is irrelevant. In any event, I think it's misleading to attempt to use it, as it does not stand alone as proof of anything except of how things stood at the moment it was taken.

No link was provided, and where I'm not the one trying to offer the picture as proof of something, I don't feel it's incumbent on me to try to find out where it came from.


* It's clearly not an open-and-shut case, either, given that IMSA first ruled that there was an infraction and then reversed themselves. I'm willing to accept that the Ferrari had no obligation if that's what the guys who race the series think (which I think they do).

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

The videos I've seen looked like the Ferrari did not maintain racing room and forced the Audi to either make contact or leave the racing surface. Whether the Audi was entitled to racing room is open to question*. If you assert (as I thought you did) that the Audi was not entitled to racing room, then the picture is irrelevant. In any event, I think it's misleading to attempt to use it, as it does not stand alone as proof of anything except of how things stood at the moment it was taken.

No link was provided, and where I'm not the one trying to offer the picture as proof of something, I don't feel it's incumbent on me to try to find out where it came from.


* It's clearly not an open-and-shut case, either, given that IMSA first ruled that there was an infraction and then reversed themselves. I'm willing to accept that the Ferrari had no obligation if that's what the guys who race the series think (which I think they do).

Which lap are you talking about, cause it seems too many are getting confused about the hip check on the lap prior, and the run off on the last lap.

If you're talking about the last lap I've explained it clearly already and I also have stated that he wasn't entitled room because driver taking the racing line has priority. It is the responsibility of the outside passing driver to make the pass or racing work without causing harm. This is because cars don't ride on rails and as seen both cars stepped out upon exit of that corner thus pushing them slightly wider off the race line, the Ferrari tried to maintain the ability to give room so a wreck didn't occur, thus it isn't irrelevant either way. Especially when you take into account the post race interview Flying Lizard gave, claiming that they were pushed out and not given room. That picture indeed shows that during hard racing, the L5 still gave cushion.

Also no link needs to be provided, they gave you a source and a picture it's not like it was photoshopped. So thus no one asked you to find where it's from, rather no one should hold your hand to the website that was given even if not in url format. Fact checking doesn't work in the way you've just put forth.

Also if you agree Ferrari had no obligation to leave room why quote and argue me? Since we obviously agree on this, or your not being clear.

 

[Swagger897]

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

View attachment 107382

So you've just informed us that you really don't know what you're talking about...

You know there are less embarrassing ways to inform people, like not commenting at all.

 

[MrWednesday]

driver taking the racing line has priority.

This is still wrong (as I said before). Except in certain low-level racing series, there is no unfettered right to the racing line.

In general, the overtaking driver has the responsibility to make a safe pass, and both drivers (overtaking and overtaken) have the responsibility to maintain racing room. This means that in an overtaking maneuver through a turn, both drivers will have to leave the racing line in order to provide racing room to the other; the outside car must leave a car-width at the apex, and the inside car must leave a car-width at track-out.

The closest to a directly on-point quote that I can find for it is from the SCCA's GCR:
"Each competitor has a right to racing room, which is generally defined as sufficient space on the marked racing surface that under racing conditions, a driver can maintain control of his car in close quarters."
And, "The overtaking driver is responsible for the decision to pass another car and to accomplish it safely. The overtaken driver is responsible to be aware that he is being passed and not to impede or block the overtaking car."

It is the responsibility of the outside passing driver to make the pass or racing work without causing harm.

We clearly don't disagree on this point.

the Ferrari tried to maintain the ability to give room so a wreck didn't occur, thus it isn't irrelevant either way.

I thought and still think it looked like they pushed out too wide, and the most likely reason that IMSA rescinded the penalty is that they decided that the attempt to pass in that location was not safe, therefore the Ferrari had some latitude on track-out and got the benefit of the doubt that they did the best they could.

Especially when you take into account the post race interview Flying Lizard gave, claiming that they were pushed out and not given room. That picture indeed shows that during hard racing, the L5 still gave cushion.

The picture shows that there was still room about halfway through track-out, but it does not show that there was still room at the end of track-out.

Also if you agree Ferrari had no obligation to leave room why quote and argue me? Since we obviously agree on this, or your not being clear.

It ruffles my feathers when something is claimed to be definitive when it's clearly not. Even though I agree with the conclusion, I disagree (I think) with how you get there.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

This is still wrong (as I said before). Except in certain low-level racing series, there is no unfettered right to the racing line.

Tell that to F1, FIA GT3, WTCC and so on.

In general, the overtaking driver has the responsibility to make a safe pass, and both drivers (overtaking and overtaken) have the responsibility to maintain racing room.

Thanks for the echo...I tend to enjoy seeing what I just wrote as a rebuttal against me.

This means that in an overtaking maneuver through a turn, both drivers will have to leave the racing line in order to provide racing room to the other; the outside car must leave a car-width at the apex, and the inside car must leave a car-width at track-out.

...Yet it's pretty much impossible when you're racing hard and the back end steps out through the mid corner or at the apex and corner out when power is reapplied. Thus it is more of a priority for the outside driver that isn't on the racing line (which isn't the outside) to give room and prevent contact..

The closest to a directly on-point quote that I can find for it is from the SCCA's GCR:
"Each competitor has a right to racing room, which is generally defined as sufficient space on the marked racing surface that under racing conditions, a driver can maintain control of his car in close quarters."
And, "The overtaking driver is responsible for the decision to pass another car and to accomplish it safely. The overtaken driver is responsible to be aware that he is being passed and not to impede or block the overtaking car."

Yes from your example the Flying Lizard car driven by Winklehock didn't leave any room thought he could make a pass on the outside and wasn't able to. The image shows that from turn exit to the straight and due to physics of how a car works, he left as much as possible. Thus this shows even more so that there was no blocking or impeding from L5 and to keep saying or acting as such is putting us in circles. A bad call was made and then reversed, it was called in the first place due to the lap prior with the hip check. You want to sit here and act that NASCAR the main group and IMSA are infallible, I should point you to one of the biggest failures of NASCAR that you obviously aren't aware of and that is the final pre-chase race of last year. Where they basically pulled the same thing here, the chase was set controversy hit and they reversed the ruling because they were wrong in the first place.

We clearly don't disagree on this point.

So why argue with me?

I thought and still think it looked like they pushed out too wide.

Do you or have you studied physics of matter in motion (these cars for example), as I keep explaining you already have your answer.

The picture shows that there was still room about halfway through track-out, but it does not show that there was still room at the end of track-out.

Hence me telling you to watch the video a page or two back...

It ruffles my feathers when something is claimed to be definitive when it's clearly not. Even though I agree with the conclusion, I disagree (I think) with how you get there.

Well your subjectivity is leading you to have your jimmies rustled, and I guess you'll continue to be in this position since many agree Ferrari were wronged on here. Good luck to you.

 

[MrWednesday]

Agree to disagree.

 

[Swagger897]

So you've just informed us that you really don't know what you're talking about...

You know there are less embarrassing ways to inform people, like not commenting at all.

I dunno about you, but this is their practice on Friday... Clearly when I watched ALL OF THEIR PRACTICE through audi-liveracing.com


100-200 m away

50-100 m away

0-50 m away

Point where Winkelhock had two tires out

I'm no professional race car driver, but I've been watching it enough to know where the line is... So why is it that we are saying the Ferrari had the racing line?

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

I dunno about you, but this is their practice on Friday... Clearly when I watched ALL OF THEIR PRACTICE through audi-liveracing.com


100-200 m away
View attachment 107391


50-100 m away
View attachment 107392


0-50 m away
View attachment 107393


Point where Winkelhock had two tires out
View attachment 107394



I'm no professional race car driver, but I've been watching it enough to know where the line is... So why is it that we are saying the Ferrari had the racing line?

What exactly does this prove? One it doesn't show side by side racing action going into that corner, if this is taking from practice then it doesn't even begin to amount to at racing speed and how hard they were pushing. Also the Audi was on the outside of this line on the last lap when racing the L5 Ferrari and not running the conventional race line you have pictured here, so what the hell are you on about?

 

[Müle]

Please, I'm not taking sides, as I hate American racing series.... All of them. They are all centered around NASCAR in my belief, allowing no innovation themselves but yet they invite others to only be beaten by "unfair racing". Prototype challenge? No, the challenge is not making a mockery of themselves by going to Rolex 24... They want to go to the WEC? HELL no they shouldn't be allowed. Not after what the Frances have done to LMP1 in America. I'm glad the WEC has now a proper venue to go to and am pleased with how they handle situations in a more professional way. Although the 2013 Le Mans was a bit over stressed with cautions, they couldn't have done a better job after the first few solemn laps...

 

[aarror]

I'm no professional race car driver, but I've been watching it enough to know where the line is... So why is it that we are saying the Ferrari had the racing line?

You serious? The Ferrari had a shallow entry to the corner, causing it to have a different apex than a car with a wide entry, like your pictures showed. The optimal racing line therefore changed, with a much earlier apex and a wider exit. As you can see below, the Ferrari has a much wider exit to the corner than the Audi. The Ferrari had the line because he was defending, it is up to the car passing to make a clean overtake. There was no intentional blocking or pushing wide here, the Audi driver simply failed to account for the Ferrari's altered trajectory, and quickly ran out of road. It's what I like to call a racing incident, and it's good to see that IMSA is willing to admit they were wrong.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

You serious? The Ferrari had a shallow entry to the corner, causing it to have a different apex than a car with a wide entry, like your pictures showed. The optimal racing line therefore changed, with a much earlier apex and a wider exit. I can mock up a quickie demo on paint for you if you want.

I was planning on doing the same thing, glad I'm not the only one.