2014 United Sports Car Championship

[cnd01]

The BOP was more even than it's been all season, but the DP's have a huge advantage on restarts. Surely you won't deny that? A late race restart will always favour a DP over a P2.

Only ways to fix that would be to allow P2s to use the Michelins, (which would never happen because of Conti $$$$$$$) or allow no car work while refuelling, allowing the P2s to take advantage of their lighter tire use. Also, it will bring in an extra strategy element and allow teams to try something different to stay ahead.

I really see no benefit of allowing no car work while refueling. Why increase the pit delta for the whole field? Who wants to watch cars sit in pit road while the crew anxiously awaits the fuel to finish? With stops the way they are, it puts pressure on the pit crews to finish tires before the fuel is finished. Couple in a driver change and that makes it hard to do. We've seen the tires have the ability to double stint. Oak can leave the old tires on the car and have an advantage with warmer tires but possibly lose a little at the end.

Everyone stop complaining, it was an actually great race! 👍 Some of the LMPC drivers though need to relearn how to...drive.

While on this P class thing though, I still think that the spec tire is ridiculous in a top tier class of a championship like this. P, and GTLM should be open, while PC and GTD use the spec Conti's. Wouldn't that make more sense? But anyway, like :@:aarror said, any sane individual could see the jump the DP's had over the LMP2's on the restarts. If that would be fixed, bingo.




*I will say though...I'm tired of these DP's winning...especially the bloody Corvette DP's...a little chassis parity would be nice. Yes they're both fast...but at the end of the day....who's in the winner's circle?*

Heck of a race like you're saying. An open tire would just raise the budget. Even the so called "open tire rule" in the GTLM class is all Michelin except for a car sponsored by a tire company...

Sadly, the only way to fix what happened at the late restart is to buy teams all the same chassis or tell the PC and GTD guys to stop wrecking

 

[aarror]

Sadly, the only way to fix what happened at the late restart is to buy teams all the same chassis or tell the PC and GTD guys to stop wrecking

Haha, probably true. PC really does need to go, the races would be so much better.

 

[hawkeye122]

I think the BoP is as close as it can get.

If the P2 cars could time their pit stops better they could come in early, set flying laps until the DP's stopped, and then inherit the lead. If I were calling strategy for Oak Racing, I would've stopped WAY EARLY, filled the car, and sent Brundle back into battle. As soon as he catches the lead DP, pull him for fuel again. This assumes that the lead DP's gap the field like they did today, but I understand it's not uncommon that someone walks away at the front in DP? The restarts suck, and that's here to stay until 2017.

The crap we saw in PC today would've got peoples SCCA licenses suspended. No reason to see that in a top-flight series.

No work while refueling is a safety issue, and it gives benefit for those who take it easy on tires.

 

[Mac K]

I enjoyed the race today, fun day at the track

 

[cnd01]

I think the BoP is as close as it can get.

If the P2 cars could time their pit stops better they could come in early, set flying laps until the DP's stopped, and then inherit the lead. If I were calling strategy for Oak Racing, I would've stopped WAY EARLY, filled the car, and sent Brundle back into battle. As soon as he catches the lead DP, pull him for fuel again. This assumes that the lead DP's gap the field like they did today, but I understand it's not uncommon that someone walks away at the front in DP? The restarts suck, and that's here to stay until 2017.

The crap we saw in PC today would've got peoples SCCA licenses suspended. No reason to see that in a top-flight series.

No work while refueling is a safety issue, and it gives benefit for those who take it easy on tires.

Rarely did anyone run away with it. There were times Ganassi won big, and once when Gainsco about lapped the field at Mid-Ohio, but generally it was close enough. This makes 3 years in a row that the finish was within a second or two at the Sahlen's 6. Last year looked like a Starworks run-away at the end, but rain came and absolutely threw a curve ball benefiting AX and 8Star. Two years ago, Joao passed Gurney in the toe of the boot I believe with about 5 minutes or less to go to take the win. The Sahlen's 6 is one of the best races of the season at imo the best track for sportscar racing here stateside.

PC really needs to be done away with pretty quickly here. It wasn't an issue in the ALMS because they had barely any cars on the track.

The incident in practice between the RSR 09 and the JDC 85 was reminiscent of the Gaston Kearby incident at Sebring. That's another PC problem. Not to mention 3 of the 4 FCYs involved PC cars where at least 2 and setting aside my Starworks bias all 3 were caused by them. I will be the first one to say I'm eating my words when I said before the season started that the PC class deserves to be here. They need to be put into the prototype lites race like at Kansas and left there for good. It hasn't gotten any better as the season has progressed, and they're tearing up lots and lots of racecars. Only 4 yellows, but there easily could've one or two more. IMSA actually did a good job holding off on the cautions. The penalties are still way too excessive. Stop +60 for not seeing the pit light??? A drive through for having an "illegal driver list"??? A stop plus 75 for a PC car for avoidable contact while the Corvette racing team only got a stop and go. Consistency???

Overall, it was an excellent race though. Lots of quality action on track. Vette/Viper finish was very cool. Prototype class had an excellent finish. Alex Brundle can whine and cry all he wants, but that's racing. Had a DP played fuel strategy at Laguna or CTMP and had the same thing happen, you can't really get mad about either situation. We've got what we've got, and with the driving standard of PC guys, it's hard to expect much more than what did happen in the last 10 minutes of the race.

 

[Müle]

Sadly, the only way to fix what happened at the late restart is to buy teams all the same chassis or tell the PC and GTD guys to stop wrecking

And allow lead lap cars to come to the front under yellow with less than X amount of time left in the race.

 

[cnd01]

And allow lead lap cars to come to the front under yellow with less than X amount of time left in the race.

No we can't do that. Grand am and NASCAR do that. That's not sports car racing. That's free handouts

I'm all in favor of doing this. It would've kept a lot of chaos from happening

 

[aarror]

No we can't do that. Grand am and NASCAR do that. That's not sports car racing. That's free handouts

I'm all in favor of doing this. It would've kept a lot of chaos from happening

It is free handouts, and it's stupid. If you want to do something like that, do the Super GT system. Have the lapped cars stop on the front straight and fall in behind the cars on the lead lap. It shafts the cars that are a lap down, but your idea shafts the cars on the lead lap. Someone is going to be hurt, and it shouldn't be the guys doing a good job.

 

[cnd01]

It is free handouts, and it's stupid. If you want to do something like that, do the Super GT system. Have the lapped cars stop on the front straight and fall in behind the cars on the lead lap. It shafts the cars that are a lap down, but your idea shafts the cars on the lead lap. Someone is going to be hurt, and it shouldn't be the guys doing a good job.

Well that idea you state is exactly what grand am would do. If no lapped cars were ahead of the overall leader after pit stops under yellow, those guys would drop to the rear of the DP field under normal yellow procedure. Too bad IMSA is better than that

 

[aarror]

Well that idea you state is exactly what grand am would do. If no lapped cars were ahead of the overall leader after pit stops under yellow, those guys would drop to the rear of the DP field under normal yellow procedure. Too bad IMSA is better than that

Well, there's two options: keep it the way it is, or move lapped cars out of the way. That can be done 2 ways, waving around lapped cars or dropping back lapped cars. Either way, the fans and teams will complain. (But only when they/their favourite team loses out) The way we have it is arguably the only fair way to do it.

It's a touchy subject, because no matter what you do someone is worse off than they were before. And then there's the matter of where you cut it off, Overall leader or Class leaders? It's something that would need to be looked at closely with the teams, but the way this series is being run they would make an arbitrary decision that no one would be happy with.

Or the 3rd option, which is a Le Mans style code 60, which worked excellent at La Sarthe. I'm not sure it would work on a circuit like Detroit or Long Beach, but it would have worked great at the Glen.

Edit: I kinda misread Mules post, but you get how opposed to the wave around I am. It's a ridiculous idea.

 

[cnd01]

A code 60 would've been pretty dumb in those 2 late race cautions. There were immobilized stranded cars in dangerous spots on the track. In the second wreck's case, there was tons of debris and fluid. from both cars. Leaving that there would have caused something else for sure in the second wreck. Also, Pruett came out hurting. Leaving a possibly hurt driver out there for the sake of not breaking the race isn't smart at all. It's easy to do a code 60 at La Sarthe because it's miles long and a FCY takes 40 forevers as is just by the sheer length of the track. Honestly, Imsa getting that sorted with the track crew getting the place clear as quickly as they did deserves a trophy. Them getting it sorted even half decent is all anyone can hope for in that case. The procedure used today was pretty much how grand am did their quick yellow which only came in cautions in the last 15-20 minutes of the race where the leader was the first car behind the pace car and everyone else lined up as they came to the field with no pits opening or wave arounds and then back green asap. I really have no objections to what they did. The 9 could've pulled over like the 60, but I really have nothing against Frisselle trying to get his lap back. That's what you do as a driver. The 60 was a dozen or so laps behind and couldn't do anything except hurt the race, so it moved over.

 

[hawkeye122]

Get your lap back with fewer than 25 minutes remaining? To what end?

 

[cnd01]

Get your lap back with fewer than 25 minutes remaining? To what end?

In case a quick yellow happens and you're right back in the overall fight(like what actually happened). Plus, when you get the jump on the leader and are entirely alongside by the brake zone, why back off. Get back on the lead lap. That's racing. Just like Westy blowing by. The only reason Westy came by so fast was the Brundle took Frisselle into T1. Had he let the lapper go, he would've gotten a good run off and not broken his momentum allowing the faster DP to go by him like he was riding his bike

 

[IforceV8]

They could equip the P2 cars with Michelin/Dunlop hybrid tires with a gold inlay and it would make no difference,the race starts and restarts will favor the car with 600hp vs the car with 450hp every time.In no other from of racing would a pole sitter who made a flawless start get blown away by 3 "slower" cars and be in 4th place 30 seconds into the race.

The current BoP is as close as it will get with apples and oranges,the formula doesnt work.Is splitting the class the answer? Why should the P2 cars become the "lower" class when they were the benchmark for the DP cars to begin with? Good luck selling that idea to HPD,Ligier,and the other rumored cars that car supposed to be coming later this year and next.DP's wont move to the back seat,Chevy,Ford,Chipster the hut,and the people in the Daytona ivory tower wont allow that to happen either.The money the DP owners spent upgrading needs to be justified somehow.

 

[cnd01]

They could equip the P2 cars with Michelin/Dunlop hybrid tires with a gold inlay and it would make no difference,the race starts and restarts will favor the car with 600hp vs the car with 450hp every time.In no other from of racing would a pole sitter who made a flawless start get blown away by 3 "slower" cars and be in 4th place 30 seconds into the race.

The current BoP is as close as it will get with apples and oranges,the formula doesnt work.Is splitting the class the answer? Why should the P2 cars become the "lower" class when they were the benchmark for the DP cars to begin with? Good luck selling that idea to HPD,Ligier,and the other rumored cars that car supposed to be coming later this year and next.DP's wont move to the back seat,Chevy,Ford,Chipster the hut,and the people in the Daytona ivory tower wont allow that to happen either.The money the DP owners spent upgrading needs to be justified somehow.

Blame the ACO for making the LMP2 car spec barely having the straightline speed to pass a GTE car...

Heaven forbid one car have more power than the other. Heaven forbid teams thousands of miles away not having the opportunity to show up and dominate. How dare IMSA do anything original and different. How dare we do our best to keep 70% of the American prototype teams happy

 

[IforceV8]

The ignore button is by far the best part of .

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

Blame the ACO for making the LMP2 car spec barely having the straightline speed to pass a GTE car...

Heaven forbid one car have more power than the other. Heaven forbid teams thousands of miles away not having the opportunity to show up and dominate. How dare IMSA do anything original and different. How dare we do our best to keep 70% of the American prototype teams happy

It does have the straight line speed to pass GTE cars though...it's been shown plenty of times.

 

[aarror]

A code 60 would've been pretty dumb in those 2 late race cautions. There were immobilized stranded cars in dangerous spots on the track. In the second wreck's case, there was tons of debris and fluid. from both cars. Leaving that there would have caused something else for sure in the second wreck. Also, Pruett came out hurting. Leaving a possibly hurt driver out there for the sake of not breaking the race isn't smart at all. It's easy to do a code 60 at La Sarthe because it's miles long and a FCY takes 40 forevers as is just by the sheer length of the track. Honestly, Imsa getting that sorted with the track crew getting the place clear as quickly as they did deserves a trophy. Them getting it sorted even half decent is all anyone can hope for in that case. The procedure used today was pretty much how grand am did their quick yellow which only came in cautions in the last 15-20 minutes of the race where the leader was the first car behind the pace car and everyone else lined up as they came to the field with no pits opening or wave arounds and then back green asap. I really have no objections to what they did. The 9 could've pulled over like the 60, but I really have nothing against Frisselle trying to get his lap back. That's what you do as a driver. The 60 was a dozen or so laps behind and couldn't do anything except hurt the race, so it moved over.

Woah, I wasn't saying Code 60 was the best option. It only really works on large tracks like the Nurburgring and La Sarthe. In those situations a FCY was absolutely the right call. I was just listing the different options used around the world. I still think Super GT has the best system, it adds no time to the yellow period and gets the slow cars out of the way.

Also, the DP's weren't massively OP before the buyout, they were far slower than the P2s. IMSA just royally screwed up the balancing and gave the DPs a huge advantage.

Fact is, this current format isn't going to work. Get rid of either the DPs or P2s, because its impossible to fairly balance two totally different cars. In this case, getting rid of the P2s makes more sense. They can go race in Europe, whereas nobody wants DPs so if you got rid of them you'd be hurting a lot more teams who would suddenly have nowhere to race. ALMS fans can just watch for the GT racing, or watch WEC instead. And then Grand Am/Nascar gets what it wanted in the first place, their #1 rival (who was kicking their arses) eliminated.

 

[cnd01]

It does have the straight line speed to pass GTE cars though...it's been shown plenty of times.

I never said it couldn't...but whatever paddles your canoe.

I will say that Oak deserved that win. I will say they should feel wronged; however, it's not prototype BoP that caused 2 wrecks by PC drivers setting up a shootout that favors the DP guys. It wasn't a phantom caution either that set it up. It's a product of racing. Sometimes, that's gonna happen from time to time. The only way to really fix it is to get everyone on one platform, but there is too much money put into both sides at this point for it to happen until 2017, so this is what we have. Imsa could make it closer by giving the LMP2 guys 50-75 extra horsepower and taking some of their downforce away, but that would cause a mass pitchfork and torch Brick Tamland trident throwing massacre because a Le Mans "link" is more important than having a truly fair race to some people.

As @aarror will agree, they should've picked one platform or the other from the get go and bought the other platform teams that chassis and paid for all the upgrades assuming they go DP for all prototype teams if they really wanted some players.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

I never said it couldn't...but whatever paddles your canoe.

You said the ACO (even though it's more so the FIA) doesn't allow them enough power, so much so they have trouble passing GTE cars. Yet they don't have problems passing them and are significantly faster especially when you look at lap times.

 

[cnd01]

Another thing I noticed from the race was a few more inconsistencies in officiating. Oak were missing their right mirror for a long time in that race, and weren't forced to repair it. RLL BMW at Long Beach had similar situation, and they were forced to repair it on their stop. The mirror was missing when Yac-attack was in, but it wasn't fixed when Brundle got in at the end. Oak technically got away with one there while the Corvette racing wire transaction...I mean penalty review gave them a stop and go for avoidable contact while everyone else was a stop +60.

Oh and on a better note, the Conti race will air next Sunday on FS1

 

[IforceV8]

Corvette "penalty"

 

[cnd01]

Actually, it was for an incident with the Flying Lizard car in the toe of the boot I believe where the only way the 4 car would've made the turn was to use the 35 car as a barrier

 

[hawkeye122]

however, it's not prototype BoP that caused 2 wrecks by PC drivers setting up a shootout that favors the DP guys. It wasn't a phantom caution either that set it up.

I don't think anyone claimed that. I certainly didn't. Oak Racing certainly didn't.

The only way to really fix it is to get everyone on one platform, but there is too much money put into both sides at this point for it to happen until 2017, so this is what we have.

Been thinking about this... What happens when Oak brings the Ligier (Which is faster than the Morgan)? They'll get their new car. I'm curious if the DP teams will buy new cars? Will Riley or Chevy try to invest in an upgrade package for like 6 cars? Will the DP teams run 4-5 year old cars in the next couple years? Economically, going forward the DP teams will be on the back foot as far as cars go. I don't see anyone too excited to rush out and buy a "New" DP car with no updates. I'm not talking trash, I just want to see how that plays out.

Imsa could make it closer by giving the LMP2 guys 50-75 extra horsepower and taking some of their downforce away, but that would cause a mass pitchfork and torch Brick Tamland trident throwing massacre because a Le Mans "link" is more important than having a truly fair race to some people.

LMP2 engines are a bit like NASCAR engines- You have a "Chevy", but it's entirely built by Hendrick.
I'm thinking the guys at Zytec or Oreca wouldn't really be able to reliably give the P2 cars 75 more HP. They don't have the same displacement to play with that the Chevy DP's do. See how many issues Ford are having with their engine? Plus, the P2 cars already are on the back foot with regards to consumption.

It's got nothing to do with a "Link", it's got to do with a purpose-built carbon tub and fiddly body work- you can't just make willy-nilly changes to it.
Reducing downforce(With the Le Mans-spec aero package) would exacerbate the tire issue I reckon. If anything, it would lead to graining.

I would like to point out that I made my points without an exaggerated personal attack, or a silly and antagonizing metaphor.

 

[IforceV8]

Clearly Grand-am has heard the complaints about the BoP (Aop in Florida) and has addressed the issue with the Corvette DP top speed, http://sportscar365.com/imsa/tusc/f...ak-bmw-z4-gt3-handed-weight-penalty-for-ctmp/

 

[catamount39]

My God...the Aston's getting the DP Crawford rear wing?! O_O

 

[Clark]

So instead of slowing the corvette all they're doing is screwing the LMP2s over even more.

And the BMW wasn't even fast, they won because the other GTD cars had trouble.

 

[catamount39]

So instead of slowing the corvette all they're doing is screwing the LMP2s over even more.

And the BMW wasn't even fast, they won because the other GTD cars had trouble.

IMSA may know how to run races now...but they suck at BoP. XD

 

[cnd01]

Boy let's base all the BoP off of one lap

 

[catamount39]

Boy let's base all the BoP off of one lap

Actually no... this whole season they keep making mistakes.

GTD...they're shouldn't have been anymore BoP...stop messing with a good thing! Turner won because they were the only ones who didn't screw up!

P...the Ford's are actually pretty close/equal to the LMP2's, but they were restricted in stead of the Corvettes? Like Marshall Pruet said, if the LMP2's were given a softer compound of tire, it would help get heat in and get them more equal with the fa...I mean heavier DP's. The DP's have won 5-1 over the LMP2's. Granted however, there are only two competitive LMP2 teams, and like 5 competitive DP teams. As long as we have the DP and LMP2 chassis' we need to have them both having their own edges like FIA GT3 or something. But they should seriously make a restriction to the Corvette DP's, they're worse than Mercedes F1. Here's an interesting thought though, how would an LMP2 chassis do with the Chevy V8? Imagine the Ligier with one of those in the engine bay.


But as I and some other sane people said before, IMSA put on one heck of a race, they've finally got it. It took until race 6 of the season but they've finally gotten the art of running a good multi-class race. Now if we could just rid of LMPC.