Gran Turismo Physics(Poll)

[Saidur_Ali]

Comfort hard tires have such a deadened steering affect in this game, I doubt they'd even move the car at such a high speed. Try using CH steers with any racing tires for rear and you'll find it incredibly hard to oversteer or even do a donut, when in reality the rear-end would likely spin to the front with any blip of the throttle. The 97T is a different scenario as it has comfort for both front and rear, but the supernatural downforce of this game keeps you planted after ~120mph.

It's a simple example of how this game is broken on multiple levels, and is showing arcade features outweighing simulation. Thank you for showing the video super_gt.

Having considerably more rear grip than front will likely mean you will have a lot of understeer.

Also similar test I did before like @super_gt

 

[Streeto]

Solution: Don't use the 97T until they fix it.

As far as I'm aware all the other cars work as they should in this scenario, I definitely get a lot of fishtailing on route X with my 900hp supra.

Don't say the entire game is broken because of one car.

 

[Johnnypenso]

Solution: Don't use the 97T until they fix it.

As far as I'm aware all the other cars work as they should in this scenario, I definitely get a lot of fishtailing on route X with my 900hp supra.

Don't say the entire game is broken because of one car.

He posted a video and said, "What do you think of this?", then proceeded to discuss it. How is that saying the entire game is broken because of one car? The game has issues with physics as does every game that's ever been created or ever will be created. Can we have a discussion about it without the broad, sweeping generalizations on one side or the other?

The solution isn't to not use it, it's to raise it as an issue with the game and hope PD sees it and fixes it, if it turns out to be a legitimate issue.

 

[Streeto]

He posted a video and said, "What do you think of this?", then proceeded to discuss it. How is that saying the entire game is broken because of one car? The game has issues with physics as does every game that's ever been created or ever will be created. Can we have a discussion about it without the broad, sweeping generalizations on one side or the other?

The solution isn't to not use it, it's to raise it as an issue with the game and hope PD sees it and fixes it, if it turns out to be a legitimate issue.

Yes, and I answered what I thought.

The other part was in reply to this;

It's a simple example of how this game is broken on multiple levels

 

[TurismoBad]

What iRacing (which I see people claiming to be the best in this regard) have that GT6 doesn't in terms of physics ?

 

[fortbo]

What iRacing (which I see people claiming to be the best in this regard) have that GT6 doesn't in terms of physics ?

I have both and to be completely honest not much. They both feel almost the same. iRacing has a little better FFB and I think it has tire deformation. But GT6 to me feels about as good physics wise.

 

[Johnnypenso]

Yes, and I answered what I thought.

The other part was in reply to this;
It's a simple example of how this game is broken on multiple levels

Maybe a poor choice of words to say "broken" but it's true nonetheless. The game has several flaws with physics...as does every other game. Each game from iRacing to Forza to GT to the upcoming PCars will have flaws and weaknesses in it's physics. Whether they are "flaws" or "broken" is only semantics and word choice, no need to get hung up on it.

 

[Streeto]

Maybe a poor choice of words to say "broken" but it's true nonetheless. The game has several flaws with physics...as does every other game. Each game from iRacing to Forza to GT to the upcoming PCars will have flaws and weaknesses in it's physics. Whether they are "flaws" or "broken" is only semantics and word choice, no need to get hung up on it.

Exactly, so OP, stop worrying about little things and just enjoy the game.

Also, stop saying simcade, I lose a braincell every time I read that word.

 

[Scaff]

Exactly, so OP, stop worrying about little things and just enjoy the game.

Sorry but I disagree, if an element of the physics has a considerable number of issues or is simply not present in the physics engine then its a lot more than semantics.

Also, stop saying simcade, I lose a braincell every time I read that word.

Not a choice you get to make, people want to refer to it (or anything else) as a simcade then they can do, as long as they are willing to discuss and debate the reasons why they feel its an accurate description.

 

[Morgoth_666]

...


Not a choice you get to make, people want to refer to it (or anything else) as a simcade then they can do, as long as they are willing to discuss and debate the reasons why they feel its an accurate description.

True enough, it is just a word anyway and doesn't really cause any harm on its own. I imagine the problem some people(no one specific of course) have with it is that it is often used in a fairly condescending and derogatory way -- along with the fact that it doesn't have much real specific meaning(which of course makes it great as a generic insult). The NFS games or even Burnout do a far better job of simulating reality and driving physics than most older arcade racers(and probably some current ones). iRacing and Asetto Corsa are surely by design far more accessible, fun, simplistic and inaccurate and in effect just silly toys than the latest and greatest professional race teams' gazillion-dollar simulators. So by that notion most everything we have to choose from is a bit "simcade."

Arcade and Simulation aren't even truly mutually exclusive anymore as people get better and better at simulating real physics so the new sims make the old ones "simcade" by some definitions and it's easier and easier to include more accurate physical simulation in the games with a more "arcade" approach. Outside of perhaps adherence to real-world rules and vehicle specifications/tuning, the most advanced NFS-style games are probably technically better simulations of driving than the first PC sims this old fart started out on. Gran Turismo has itself never been too concerned with recreating the sport of racing with accurate rules and race formats. Then we have the people who don't believe anything can be called "simulation" unless it is 100% perfect and accurate in every way including g-forces and fear of death.

So I'd probably say that simcade is yet another silly mostly meaningless word that we are stuck with one way or the other. At best it could be considered a genre trying to bridge the gap between "fun" and "realistic" which is probably a pretty accurate description of the GT series despite their obvious issues on both fronts. Some people will use it as an insult, some won't, and some will choose to be annoyed by it. At least it is more appealing than "Arculation."

 

[Fuzzi0n]

Simcade, but very good. Since the last few updates they've improved things quite a lot with regards to weight transfer and aero balance. They still need to fix FWD cars as they rarely get lift off oversteer and if you do the front instantly starts doing the same which it shouldn't. Otherwise it's somewhat realistic, and probably the right balance as I can still drive quite easily on a controller, but the cars aren't always easy to drive and require you to drive them properly to get a good laptime. If I want realistic physics I'll go and play iRacing anyway.

 

[super_gt]

Don't say the entire game is broken because of one car.

I've never said that the game is broken,what I say is that physics is still not good enough to call it simulation.
And it is not only one car try Formula GT

 

[Master__Shake_]

Having considerably more rear grip than front will likely mean you will have a lot of understeer.

In the game it works that way, yes, but realistically having high grip in the rear will want to force the rear-end ahead of the front tires as they would not have the grip to keep the car straight. Similar to driving on ice or snow, RWD cars are not stable with any unbalance of traction and will go sideways without proper throttle management & steer input. Obviously low power cars won't be as unstable since their power would be controlled by the racing tires, and they would experience game-accurate understeer, but anything with significantly high power such as 450-550 or above would be uncontrollable. You can't expect comfort hard steer tires to control 500 horsepower of torque steer from the rear, like this game makes as easy as driving a FWD car.

 

[super_gt]

Similar to driving on ice or snow, RWD cars are not stable with any unbalance of traction and will go sideways without proper throttle management & steer input.

:tup:Which reminds me of this:

 

[super_gt]

Arcade and Simulation aren't even truly mutually exclusive anymore as people get better and better at simulating real physics so the new sims make the old ones "simcade"

Richard Burns Rally(RBR) is still the best rally sim.
And I would never say that rFactor 1 is simcade despite being outdated.

 

[Stotty]

In the game it works that way, yes, but realistically having high grip in the rear will want to force the rear-end ahead of the front tires as they would not have the grip to keep the car straight. Similar to driving on ice or snow, RWD cars are not stable with any unbalance of traction and will go sideways without proper throttle management & steer input. Obviously low power cars won't be as unstable since their power would be controlled by the racing tires, and they would experience game-accurate understeer, but anything with significantly high power such as 450-550 or above would be uncontrollable. You can't expect comfort hard steer tires to control 500 horsepower of torque steer from the rear, like this game makes as easy as driving a FWD car.

Err... don't drag cars rather disprove your theory?

Massive power (1,000's of bhp), massive rear tyres with loads of grip, tiny low grip front tyres... yet they seem to do OK running in a straight line despite no front end grip.

 

[Master__Shake_]

Err... don't drag cars rather disprove your theory?

Massive power (1,000's of bhp), massive rear tyres with loads of grip, tiny low grip front tyres... yet they seem to do OK running in a straight line despite no front end grip.

Drag cars are built for straight line speed using chassis reinforcement, traction bars, wheelie bars, wrinkle wall tires to absorb all grip and keep the car from spinning sideways. High class horsepower drag cars are extremely prone to torque steer, which is why not everyone can drive a 1000 horsepower dragster.

You can't put 800 or more horsepower in a car that made less than 400 and expect to keep it straight on launch without heavy modification. But in this game, you can stick comfort hard steers and racing hard rear on a GT500 and magically it can't oversteer with over 1000 horsepower.

 

[super_gt]

GT6 Corvette C7 Stock,torque steer test.
No AIDS,99% rain,sports hard tires.
Steering wheel Logitech DFGT,Force Feedback set to 10.
Nurburgring Nordschleife
Far from reality.

 

[machschnel]

Err... don't drag cars rather disprove your theory?

Massive power (1,000's of bhp), massive rear tyres with loads of grip, tiny low grip front tyres... yet they seem to do OK running in a straight line despite no front end grip.

 

[Randy Winston]

Wow! That video sure is impressive. If the tire deformation that we are seeing in the video actually behaves even remotely accurate to real world tire physics then I am blown away. Do you play rFactor 2? For those of you who do/have, what do you think of their overall physics - especially compared to Gran Turismo 6. I've never played a single driving game besides GT6, so I have nothing to compare it to.

The tire model is a work in progress, it has nice features and the cars aren't necessarily harder to drive than GT, but the feeling isn't there and the accuracy isn't 100 percent. But it's still miles more accurate than GT.

 

[Stotty]

How often does that happen out of all the runs that are made?

 

[machschnel]

How often does that happen out of all the runs that are made?

Torque steer?

To a greater or lesser degree, every pass. You can't just turn off physics.

 

[YZF]

Does it really matter..it is what it is. I'd rather have an element of A.I. than improved physics

"Open Lobby" mode has the best AI in the world

 

[fortbo]

"Open Lobby" mode has the best AI in the world

I don't know about that, some of them are still pretty stupid.

 

[Master__Shake_]

How often does that happen out of all the runs that are made?

The nitro dragsters are running well over 2,000 horsepower and extremely lightweight, which is why the body is elongated to keep aerodynamic drag to a minimum while keeping maximum weight & downforce over the rear wheels. Normal road cars, such as an unmodified C7 Corvette or Mustang 302, wouldn't be able to handle 900+ horsepower without modifications to chassis, tires, plexiglass conversion, complete suspension overhaul, and most other modifications you'd see on a stockcar. This game has heavy assumptions that tuning suspension and adding ballast would compose these cars to handle the horsepower, which is very much incorrect.

 

[Rustyhole]

Also, stop saying simcade, I lose a braincell every time I read that word.

I actually like that word/term!

I think it describes not only GT, but what many enjoy about GT. The realism is higher than stuff like NFS but it's rooted firmly in "game" as opposed to "sim". If most people really wanted more sim, sales of F1 would be better.

And it's a lot better than Arcadmulation!

 

[Vspectra]

GT6 Corvette C7 Stock,torque steer test.
No AIDS,99% rain,sports hard tires.
Steering wheel Logitech DFGT,Force Feedback set to 10.
Nurburgring Nordschleife
Far from reality.

Same settings, but with ABS 1 and DS3 controller.

 

[YZF]

I don't know about that, some of them are still pretty stupid.

Filter/Skip/Ignore

The nitro dragsters are running well over 2,000 horsepower

You mean well over 7,000 HP .. ?

 

[super_gt]

Same settings, but with ABS 1 and DS3 controller.

I show in my video car with semi slicks of 100% heavy wet how on 2 3 4 gear spinnig the tires at 150+km. and the rear
does not move,in real live this will be a huge joke!the car will be undrivable.
As you can see in my video the car starts to rotate but with slight correction I was able to stop the rotation.
In real world the rotation will be so rapidly that I won't be able to catch the slide,I doubt that even professional race driver will be able to catch the slide.
Not to mention that with flying start from about 50km. in second gear end the car will not move at all.

 

[Master__Shake_]

You mean well over 7,000 HP .. ?

Different classes - some are gasoline, some are nitro drag cars, and now they're doing electric drags with smaller chassis.