Gran Turismo Physics(Poll)

[TorqueHappenS08]

Simcade:

 

[R3XNiSMO]

I followed the great camber debate for quite a while and to my knowledge not a single person stepped forward with a cambered tune that was any faster than 0/0. So of course when they patch camber, you have to retune because your 0/0 tune is no longer the fastest setup because camber adds grip.

Fastest lap and most realistic set up are not the same thing. That should be clear. If you disagree with this there is no point reading my opinion. Let's agree to disagree right here as I'm not interested in arguing with anybody in circles. Truce. Don't go any further.

Fastest lap and most realistic set up are not the same thing. That should be clear as day. When I tune its about bringing out the character in the car, I and many others enjoy the experience and not the who's fastest in the world. As fast as you are there is always somebody faster.

Its a video game after all and as such it has flaws and limitations, tuning and exploiting them to make a fast hot lap vs a set up the relays the characteristics and feel of the car as much as can be in a video game are not even close to identical. Not in my opinion.

I have no doubts that the flaws (and GT is far from perfect despite getting better as they grow it has many flaws) can be used to ultimately build cars that all pretty much handle and feel the same and put down sick fast laps after much practice with that style of tuning you are acustome to.

And the Aliens IMHO They are called Aliens because they drive unstable space ships with alien type reflexes that cut insane laps. I also firmly believe most GTP drivers judge most tunes way before stepping behind the wheel and drive accordingly

Camber is also not some grip gift from god, as much as the gains can be made its more going to be about consistency and feel in those gain even though we are talking often about tenths, in racing tenths matter.
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[Ridox2JZGTE]

I was stuck on 1.08 for a long time and only got around to 1.09 a few weeks ago, still on 1.09 From my experience building replicas, testing them for hundreds km each, camber physics improved on 1.09. Improved meaning, now camber gives more dynamic grip ( gain and loss ). back in pre 1.09, camber only gives grip loss with no dynamic changes under lateral load/cornering.

I have many replicas with real life camber setup back before 1.09, I drove them for many km, when I get to drive them again on 1.09, most of them needs adjustment, but only small tweaks. The grip difference is noticeable, some cars like Ferrari F40 and Toyota MR2 GTS 400PS had nervous rear due to the camber used, now they are much better, grip loss only occur as it should. These cars works well without any changes on 1.09. Some other cars like Gallardo SL, FF cars and FR cars needs ARB tweaks as I used ARB to compensate for camber grip loss ( to balance the car ), now on 1.09, ARB from before do not work, limiting body/laterla roll too much gives adverse effect on peak cornering load/grip with camber. I really like 1.09, a step in the right direction, although I think the grip gain from using camber still needs improvement, too little I think that it doesn't give the same effect for grip balance like IRL. Running zero / 0.00 camber makes car drive weird for me, sharp, but the handling is erratic on the limit.

Damper, spring rate, toe now are much more responsive, most of my suspension setup can give great effect only by changing one click on damper extension or compression. I never encountered any real life based spring rate ( value and ratio ) that do not work in GT6, they all work well with well setup damper, arb and alignment. Of course, proper/correct weight distribution also a plus, which on most GT6 cars are wrong Most FF and FR have not enough front bias, a few FR have too much. Most MR have not enough at the rear, maybe PD intentionally want to make them all tame and easy to drive/tune The same goes for spring rate on stock value, almost all are way too high and real life stock can't be reached with custom suspension - can't get low enough, while stiff springs used in real life often not reachable, silly PD :/

 

[LeGeNd-1]

If you turn ABS off, adjust brake balance and stick to comfort tyres for road cars, GT6 is as close as it gets to reality. I tried LFS recently and it's amazing how familiar the feeling is. Having said that, things could certainly be improved (tyre model and aerodynamics especially). So I chose option 4 - glad to see the majority agrees as well.

 

[super_gt]

For me this is a real simulation!

 

[Johnnypenso]

Fastest lap and most realistic set up are not the same thing. That should be clear. If you disagree with this there is no point reading my opinion. Let's agree to disagree right here as I'm not interested in arguing with anybody in circles. Truce. Don't go any further.

Fastest lap and most realistic set up are not the same thing. That should be clear as day. When I tune its about bringing out the character in the car, I and many others enjoy the experience and not the who's fastest in the world. As fast as you are there is always somebody faster.

Its a video game after all and as such it has flaws and limitations, tuning and exploiting them to make a fast hot lap vs a set up the relays the characteristics and feel of the car as much as can be in a video game are not even close to identical. Not in my opinion.

I have no doubts that the flaws (and GT is far from perfect despite getting better as they grow it has many flaws) can be used to ultimately build cars that all pretty much handle and feel the same and put down sick fast laps after much practice with that style of tuning you are acustome to.

And the Aliens IMHO They are called Aliens because they drive unstable space ships with alien type reflexes that cut insane laps. I also firmly believe most GTP drivers judge most tunes way before stepping behind the wheel and drive accordingly

Camber is also not some grip gift from god, as much as the gains can be made its more going to be about consistency and feel in those gain even though we are talking often about tenths, in racing tenths matter.
.
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I don't see how camber could make a car more realistic when it's effect pre-1.09 was to do the opposite of what it does in real life but as long as you enjoy the game that's all that matters.

If you turn ABS off, adjust brake balance and stick to comfort tyres for road cars, GT6 is as close as it gets to reality. I tried LFS recently and it's amazing how familiar the feeling is. Having said that, things could certainly be improved (tyre model and aerodynamics especially). So I chose option 4 - glad to see the majority agrees as well.

Pretty much every PC sim of the last 10 years is much closer to reality than GT6 is. ABS off is fun but not realistic for most modern cars and is a very poorly simulated aspect of the GT series. You shouldn't have to turn off elements of modern cars to make them feel more realistic, it should feel realistic with them on, that's the whole point of simulation. There's nothing realistic about being able to mash the brake pedal at will, even under heavy corner loads, without upsetting the balance of the car.

 

[R3XNiSMO]

I don't see how camber could make a car more realistic when it's effect pre-1.09 was to do the opposite of what it does in real life but as long as you enjoy the game that's all that matters.

I already said i have no interest in arguing in circles with anybody. You avoid the point I made about fastest lap set ups and realistic set ups not being the same thing, if you disagree with that there is no sense discussing anything. Your comment clearly shows you only want to argue in circles and I have no interest in debating with a closed mind... As long as you enjoy the game that's all that matters, believe whatever you like, as will I.

My vote was "GT6 physics is simulation, but I want even better simulation physics"

I was stuck on 1.08 for a long time and only got around to 1.09 a few weeks ago, still on 1.09 From my experience building replicas, testing them for hundreds km each, camber physics improved on 1.09. Improved meaning, now camber gives more dynamic grip ( gain and loss ). back in pre 1.09, camber only gives grip loss with no dynamic changes under lateral load/cornering.

I have many replicas with real life camber setup back before 1.09, I drove them for many km, when I get to drive them again on 1.09, most of them needs adjustment, but only small tweaks. The grip difference is noticeable, some cars like Ferrari F40 and Toyota MR2 GTS 400PS had nervous rear due to the camber used, now they are much better, grip loss only occur as it should. These cars works well without any changes on 1.09. Some other cars like Gallardo SL, FF cars and FR cars needs ARB tweaks as I used ARB to compensate for camber grip loss ( to balance the car ), now on 1.09, ARB from before do not work, limiting body/laterla roll too much gives adverse effect on peak cornering load/grip with camber. I really like 1.09, a step in the right direction, although I think the grip gain from using camber still needs improvement, too little I think that it doesn't give the same effect for grip balance like IRL. Running zero / 0.00 camber makes car drive weird for me, sharp, but the handling is erratic on the limit.

Damper, spring rate, toe now are much more responsive, most of my suspension setup can give great effect only by changing one click on damper extension or compression. I never encountered any real life based spring rate ( value and ratio ) that do not work in GT6, they all work well with well setup damper, arb and alignment. Of course, proper/correct weight distribution also a plus, which on most GT6 cars are wrong Most FF and FR have not enough front bias, a few FR have too much. Most MR have not enough at the rear, maybe PD intentionally want to make them all tame and easy to drive/tune The same goes for spring rate on stock value, almost all are way too high and real life stock can't be reached with custom suspension - can't get low enough, while stiff springs used in real life often not reachable, silly PD :/

I agree weight is one aspect that has a few flaws. Notice how at full weight with full 200kg ballast the top speed is the same as with 0 ballast and all weight reductions installed. Top speeds being faster than the real world cars in stock form, possibly top speeds in stock form are as if the car has all weight reductions installed and unaffected by weight changes. The weight does affect acceleration rate, weight transfer and stability among other things, so it’s not a complete miss. Aerodynamics has a few quirks as well, aerodynamic lift is limited and while it reduced tire drag it doesn’t appear to reduce grip as it should. Possibly to prevent GT4 wheelie style glitches or cars flipping like the Porsche at LeMans. I like to take into consideration GT6 introduces new depth in the physics I believe some compromises must be made as the system adapts.

 

[Johnnypenso]

I already said i have no interest in arguing in circles with anybody. You avoid the point I made about fastest lap set ups and realistic set ups not being the same thing, if you disagree with that there is no sense discussing anything. Your comment clearly shows you only want to argue in circles and I have no interest in debating with a closed mind... As long as you enjoy the game that's all that matters, believe whatever you like, as will I.

My vote was "GT6 physics is simulation, but I want even better simulation physics"



I agree weight is one aspect that has a few flaws. Notice how at full weight with full 200kg ballast the top speed is the same as with 0 ballast and all weight reductions installed. Top speeds being faster than the real world cars in stock form, possibly top speeds in stock form are as if the car has all weight reductions installed and unaffected by weight changes. The weight does affect acceleration rate, weight transfer and stability among other things, so it’s not a complete miss. Aerodynamics has a few quirks as well, aerodynamic lift is limited and while it reduced tire drag it doesn’t appear to reduce grip as it should. Possibly to prevent GT4 wheelie style glitches or cars flipping like the Porsche at LeMans. I like to take into consideration GT6 introduces new depth in the physics I believe some compromises must be made as the system adapts.

I did answer your proposition that camber pre-1.09 produced more realistic setups. You quoted it in your response. There's nothing "realistic" about adding camber and having it reduce grip in an operating range that would normally increase lateral grip.

 

[R3XNiSMO]

Loop the loop, not interested.

 

[LeGeNd-1]

I don't see how camber could make a car more realistic when it's effect pre-1.09 was to do the opposite of what it does in real life but as long as you enjoy the game that's all that matters.
Pretty much every PC sim of the last 10 years is much closer to reality than GT6 is. ABS off is fun but not realistic for most modern cars and is a very poorly simulated aspect of the GT series. You shouldn't have to turn off elements of modern cars to make them feel more realistic, it should feel realistic with them on, that's the whole point of simulation. There's nothing realistic about being able to mash the brake pedal at will, even under heavy corner loads, without upsetting the balance of the car.

That's true, but unless PD decides to remove the stability assist with ABS (unlikely as that would alienate so many casual gamers), it's the best method we've got. And some cars do lose the rear end under hard braking, even with ABS on. I was just driving the Audi S1 Pike Peak around Sierra and almost lost it a handful of times. I'm not saying GT is better than PC sims either (because it's not), but for a console it's pretty convincingly close if you set up things correctly (haven't tried Forza so don't judge me on that).

 

[super_gt]

I'm not saying GT is better than PC sims either (because it's not), but for a console it's pretty convincingly close if you set up things correctly.

Here's how close is GT physics compared with real world physics.
https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/threads/gt6-track-grip-too-much-or-too-little.316107/#post-10023474

 

[shmogt]

No idea if the physics are good or not compared to the real car. I have driven basically non of them to compare lol. I hear GT6 is a little more realistic in driving the actual cars tho.

 

[Tornado]

I already said i have no interest in arguing in circles with anybody. You avoid the point I made about fastest lap set ups and realistic set ups not being the same thing, if you disagree with that there is no sense discussing anything. Your comment clearly shows you only want to argue in circles and I have no interest in debating with a closed mind...

The interesting thing with this bit tacked on the end of this post is that from the start you were "arguing" with someone who was saying the same thing as you.

 

[MatskiMonk]

To be honest, if I didn't visit GTP, I'd never have any clue that things weren't right. I mean, sure the tyres are grippier than they should be, but in terms of the subtleties, the cars handle pretty much how I'd expect them to. Back to back with a more advanced PC simulation, problems may be exposed, but why are people playing GT as well as PC sims? I think it's at about the right level of depth for the target market... it needs to iron out the bugs and glitches before they had further dimensions of complexity.

As for the camber thing. Anyone use the G meter on the data logger yet to show a difference?

 

[Johnnypenso]

To be honest, if I didn't visit GTP, I'd never have any clue that things weren't right. I mean, sure the tyres are grippier than they should be, but in terms of the subtleties, the cars handle pretty much how I'd expect them to. Back to back with a more advanced PC simulation, problems may be exposed, but why are people playing GT as well as PC sims? I think it's at about the right level of depth for the target market... it needs to iron out the bugs and glitches before they had further dimensions of complexity.

As for the camber thing. Anyone use the G meter on the data logger yet to show a difference?

GT still does what it does very well for a console game, but the attention to detail in good PC sims is far greater than you can ever get on a console game with 1000+ cars. It's the old buffet vs. fine dining analogy. If you just want lots of stuff and aren't too fussed on the details or quality, GT is the place for that. If you really want to immerse yourself in a single car or driving experience and experience a far greater level of detail and nuance, PC is the way to go. GT can still be enjoyable like a good buffet is still enjoyable, but after spending some time on the PC you never quite see it the same way again.

 

[MatskiMonk]

GT still does what it does very well for a console game, but the attention to detail in good PC sims is far greater than you can ever get on a console game with 1000+ cars. It's the old buffet vs. fine dining analogy. If you just want lots of stuff and aren't too fussed on the details or quality, GT is the place for that. If you really want to immerse yourself in a single car or driving experience and experience a far greater level of detail and nuance, PC is the way to go. GT can still be enjoyable like a good buffet is still enjoyable, but after spending some time on the PC you never quite see it the same way again.

I think GT's appeal is, and needs to be, broader than just accurately simulating vehicular mechanics and real world physics. In the same way as the 'fine diners' will be looking for these subtle improvements to the physics engine, I'm sure there will be people whose pleasure comes from the game in the customisation options, or in photomode, or in putting together a nice car collection, or simply in the social aspect of larking around in cruise lobbies. So, yes, PD could focus more on the physics, but it would be unfair to overlook similar improvements in those other areas.

The reason why I say the appeal needs to be broader is because the immersion factor just isn't going to get that much higher for a significant number of players (I'd say the large majority)... who sit there on the sofa playing the game with a controller. For this majority of people the medium to judge, for instance, when your car is sliding, hasn't changed since the days of playing Powerdrift on the Spectrum with a joystick, there is just no tactile feed-back. In my opinion, it's a little pointless to micro analyse the physics, when there is, and possibly always will be in the home gaming market, a chasm of difference between the virtual and the real when it comes to the experience.

Add to that the fact that with physics, you're talking about adding more and more complex real-time calculations, putting greater and greater load on the system.. which can lead to compromises in other areas. For instance, tyre pressures and temps.. okay I understand the reasoning behind wanting this and I'm not suggesting that it should be overlooked, but if I had the choice of a NASCAR race at Daytona, with 11 other cars and tyre dynamics enabled... or a 43 grid with the simplified tyre dynamics we get now... I'm not convinced I'd go for the added physics.

 

[super_gt]

Great video first posted in GTPlanet by

@LeoStrop

 

[MatskiMonk]

@super_gt Nice video, other than the irritating sound what are we looking for?

 

[super_gt]

@super_gt Nice video, other than the irritating sound what are we looking for?

In real life with aggressive setup cars are faster,in GT is exactly the opposite,cars are faster when have big understeer.

 

[Jco176]

"GT6 Physics is simulation."
Hahahahha. Have you guys played rFactor/Assetto Corsa/iRacing/GTR 2/Race 07/R3E/etc? GT6 is nowhere near to being a simulation, and that just makes me love it more . Admittedly, it's the best simulation we have on consoles at the moment, until Project CARS is released that is, but I really enjoy GT6's more, "quirky", physics traits, and I think it's pretty safe to say you all do to.

Instead of me just shouting at the majority and hoping something sticks, I'm going to put some reasoning into this left-wing point of view, so...

(I will be referring to racing simulations as a collective "game" for time's sake.)

Having come from both sides of the racing game spectrum, i.e. Trackmania all the way through to the sims I listed, I can safely say that GT sits happily, in a happy medium, well, now days it leans a little closer to a simulation that it did in let's say, the 90's, but it hasn't detracted from the main fact that it's still great fun to play, something which the clinical PC sims aren't, this point is again, debatable, but the fact is that both games provide wildly different experiences. I mean, I don't get sweaty palms when I play GT6! Because of this, both games also attract wildly different audiences...

You've got to remember the Gran Turismo is a console game. Now, this is not me taking a stab at consoles, I love my Playstation way more than my PC, and because of this, you've got to remember what its target market are interested in. I don't know exact figures, so I'm not going to list any , but I bet the majority of English speaking GT players have never even heard of GTPlanet, and do you think they would enjoy harder, more realistic physics? Well maybe, but for arguments sake let's say they won't, sales will plummet, and we won't get our GT8/9/27 Prologue/etc.

And finally, before I go completely off topic, can you imagine Gran Turismo as a hardcore racing simulator? For years, Kaz has raved about GT's "pick up and play" ability, can you envision all those year's GT's fun-ness, for lack of a better word, replaced, in favour of it becoming the F1 team's simulator of choice?

Don't get me wrong, as I stating in my opening passage, I love GT, always have always will, no matter what direction PDI takes it, and I'll always fly the GTP flag, but you've got to remember, you don't know what you had until it's gone.



Edit: Spelling

 

[ScottPuss20]

GT6 feels much better than any other GT I've played. The aerodynamics play a much bigger factor in car performance, so that adds another simulation aspect. If I played the game with my eyes shut, I would be able to pick out a difference in performance between front engine cars and mid engine cars. I couldn't feel any of that in GT5.

 

[opelman]

The upside down forces are not there in gt6. Only side forces are there. You'r car don't go up and down like it should.I mean that all track are flat. There is no bumbs. Just some area where car is bumbing. But it wheels just script in those place.

 

[super_gt]

Fastest lap and most realistic set up are not the same thing. That should be clear as day.
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If in one racing game fastest lap and most realistic set up does not match then physics engine sucks.

 

[Stylel_Code]

In real life with aggressive setup cars are faster,in GT is exactly the opposite,cars are faster when have big understeer.

You have never tuned in GT6, have you?
To make a car faster, you have to use an aggressive setup that allows to delete understeer and adds more oversteer in other circumstances such as entry of corner. It then depends on the skills of the driver, but understeer is the ennemy of setup, as well as too much oversteer. If you watch videos of tuned cars with pro drivers in GT6, you will notice they oversteer a lot but the setup allows to control it more easily. No where does it understeer.

 

[super_gt]

You have never tuned in GT6, have you?
To make a car faster, you have to use an aggressive setup that allows to delete understeer and adds more oversteer in other circumstances such as entry of corner. It then depends on the skills of the driver, but understeer is the ennemy of setup, as well as too much oversteer. If you watch videos of tuned cars with pro drivers in GT6, you will notice they oversteer a lot but the setup allows to control it more easily. No where does it understeer.

It seems that we have different understandings for understeer and oversteer.
And also there is no way with suspension or LSD settings to delete the understeer in mid corner in GT.

 

[Stylel_Code]

It seems that we have different understandings for understeer and oversteer.
And also there is no way with suspension or LSD settings to delete the understeer in mid corner in GT.

You should try tuning more, or simply try a car which oversteer in every corners which is the R8 GT3 (ALMS), it doesn't even understeer.

 

[super_gt]

You should try tuning more, or simply try a car which oversteer in every corners which is the R8 GT3 (ALMS), it doesn't even understeer.

This is car that is setup to oversteer in every corner:

 

[super_gt]

 

[TexasTyme214]

This is car that is setup to oversteer in every corner:

To be fair, it looks like it has CS tires up front and CH tires in the back. It should oversteer in any situation in almost any setup arrangement.

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

To be fair, it looks like it has CS tires up front and CH tires in the back. It should oversteer in any situation in almost any setup arrangement.

The BB is at 0/10 It's drift car