Sebastian Vettel vs Lewis Hamilton

[Akmuq]

Yes, Perez is a lot more promising then Maldonado and I don't rate him to high either, even if he can get a good race.

 

[F1 fan]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rkLZBxHWRXA

seems like hamilton had the upper hand against vettel in the lower formulas....................i checked formula 3 2005 season looks like hamilton dominated it..........

im not familiar with f3 cars but im sure everyone uses very similar chassis.

You seem to be forgetting that Hamilton was older than Vettel and had much more experience in the car.

Ok, first of all, Peter wasn't banned for stirring up 🤬 (<Don't avoid the swear filter)
It was something different which I do not want to get into.
Secondly, in every race thread this season you seem to of got into an argument about something. Who does that make look bad?
I like how just after you said stirring up 🤬 you said he doesn't want proper conversations.
You were giving out in the Monaco thread that people were calling Lewis Hamilton 'Hammy' which contributed nothing to the discussion at all. Now that's a proper conversation.[/sarcasm]

Firstly, I never said he was banned for stirring up 🤬. I said he seemed content to stir up 🤬 and then asked him if he was banned... He did start a new account afterall. The reason I get into arguements in the race threads is because there are a lot of Vettel haters stirring the pot, so if it's ok for them to say bad things about him, I can defend him... Heaven forbid I should ever say anything derogatory about the precious Lewis Hamilton. And if you ACTUALLY GO BACK AND READ MY 🤬 POST, you'll see I wasn't making fun of people for calling Lewis Hamilton "hammy". I simply asked why people all of a sudden called him that, stated that I found it annoying then was told it's been used since 2007 to my surprise.

Personally I think that Lewis just was just expecting too much for Maldonado to move over. He would never give up his space for someone who made that move as Hammy wasn't really anywhere in a strong position to overtake. If he had been in the Monaco track where that corner had that barrier where the corner is, I would bet that Hammy wouldn't have made that move in the first place!

What's with people calling him "Hammy" all of a sudden? Really annoying.

I've heard it used since 2007.

Well it's certainly become more prominent recently.

Yeah... You can see I was reeeeeeally stirring up 🤬 there huh? Or maybe you just antagonize people.

 

[Saidur_Ali]

You seem to be forgetting that Hamilton was older than Vettel and had much more experience in the car.

Vettel had the same experience in the car in 2006 and his teammate Paul di Resta beat him to the championship.

Anyway, next weeks Top Gear should be interesting, the question is will Vettel take pole position?

 

[PeterJB]

If it's dry, yes. If it's wet, yes.

 

[Saidur_Ali]

If it's dry, yes. If it's wet, yes.

That will be more or less guaranteed to be true if he gets to use superior machinery (Kia Cee'd).

The top two times to beat is Lewis Hamilton's lap if wet and Rubens Barrichello's lap if dry.

 

[lbsf1]

I would want Hamilton to win, however I think vettel would win, vettel is the best driver out there, but I still prefer the Brit.

 

[Jimlaad43]

Seeing as I have only been to one race before (2008 British Grand Prix), and both were there, only one answer is possible.
Hamilton won the race by more than a minute, a gap that means more than a second a lap, and he spent 5 behind his teammate, and he lapped all non podium finishers.
But what happened to Vettel, he punted Coulthard off in a half hearted overtaking move that left both in the gravel.

 

[PeterJB]

Actually, I believe Coulthard punted him off. He qualified miles in front of Coulthard but had a terrible start.

 

[F1 fan]

Seeing as I have only been to one race before (2008 British Grand Prix), and both were there, only one answer is possible.
Hamilton won the race by more than a minute, a gap that means more than a second a lap, and he spent 5 behind his teammate, and he lapped all non podium finishers.
But what happened to Vettel, he punted Coulthard off in a half hearted overtaking move that left both in the gravel.

You're going to let a race of attrition be the sole influence in your decision here? By that logic, I guess Olivier Panis is better than Schumi as Panis won the 96 Monaco Grand Prix, whilst Michael crashed out on the first lap.

 

[PeterJB]

More to the point is had Vettel finished that race, Hamilton would have still beaten him in a far superior car.

 

[Saidur_Ali]

I would want Hamilton to win, however I think vettel would win, vettel is the best driver out there, but I still prefer the Brit.

I'm suprised how people think that Vettel is the best driver out there. He has the best car out there along with his teammate and he is driving to the potential of the car which he failed to do in 2009 and 2010 consistently.

If Red Bull did not leap so much forward and he was still was beating Webber, then I don't think people would say he is the best driver out there but might deserve a seat at a top team. He has had a car that could outqualify the 2nd fastest team / car by over a second margin in the last two years and that makes him perceived as the fastest driver. If he was so fast then why in 2009, did he not get the most pole positions in a car that was at least joint fastest in 2009 over the course of the season. It is not like it is only him, his team mate has been about a second faster too in 2010 and 2011. Look at Hungarian GP and see Webber's strategy to get past Alonso. I think Silverstone race coming up could see Red Bull having their biggest margin so far this year but I hope their car becomes unbalanced and they come closer to other teams but if their upgrades work, they should have even a bigger gap than before as they say they have already gained the loss back from the ban.

Look at last years laps of Silverstone. It is amazing the difference between the cars and amazing that anyone but the Red Bull drivers were contending for the title. They had I think the same number of reliability problems as McLaren but had the advantage of a car being very quick. McLaren only could stay with them at the start of the season due to the F-duct helping with race pace as it is easy to make up lap time just going straight than through corners.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=46x5S9SEs1c
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iTzAGqfCSbU

More to the point is had Vettel finished that race, Hamilton would have still beaten him in a far superior car.

Far superior driving too. He lapped his teammate.

Anyway Rubens Barrichello managed to get on the podium in a worse car than the Toro Rosso.

 

[Jimlaad43]

I don't care, I still think that Hamilton is better.

 

[PeterJB]

I'm suprised how people think that Vettel is the best driver out there. He has the best car out there along with his teammate and he is driving to the potential of the car which he failed to do in 2009 and 2010 consistently.

If Red Bull did not leap so much forward and he was still was beating Webber, then I don't think people would say he is the best driver out there but might deserve a seat at a top team. He has had a car that could outqualify the 2nd fastest team / car by over a second margin in the last two years and that makes him perceived as the fastest driver. If he was so fast then why in 2009, did he not get the most pole positions in a car that was at least joint fastest in 2009 over the course of the season. It is not like it is only him, his team mate has been about a second faster too in 2010 and 2011. Look at Hungarian GP and see Webber's strategy to get past Alonso. I think Silverstone race coming up could see Red Bull having their biggest margin so far this year but I hope their car becomes unbalanced and they come closer to other teams but if their upgrades work, they should have even a bigger gap than before as they say they have already gained the loss back from the ban.

Look at last years laps of Silverstone. It is amazing the difference between the cars and amazing that anyone but the Red Bull drivers were contending for the title. They had I think the same number of reliability problems as McLaren but had the advantage of a car being very quick. McLaren only could stay with them at the start of the season due to the F-duct helping with race pace as it is easy to make up lap time just going straight than through corners.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=46x5S9SEs1c
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iTzAGqfCSbU

2009 was different because for the first half of season, Brawn quite clearly had the fastest car, and Webber and Vettel were too busy messing around with one another instead taking chunks out of Button's lead in his awful 2nd half of the year. And for the first time in a while, he hasn't had any major mechanical issues with his car. In the past 3 seasons, he has retired 4 times due to mechanical failures. And his performance has been far more impressive than any of the other front runners so far. Lewis can't overtake without crashing it seems, Button has horrendous qualifying pace and just whines if the car doesn't work for him instead of adapting to it. Webber appears to have just given up completely, and Ferrari seem on rely on Massa holding back other drivers for Alonso. Everybody assumes that he cannot overtake simply because he hit Webber once and span into Button because of an unstable wing design. Barrichello at Brasil 2009 comes to mind as a good one, and he stormed his way through the field after his first pit stop at Spain, but he doesn't need to overtake at the moment, because he can find speed where no one else can.


Vettel's in the form of his life at the moment, why should that be taken away from him?

Far superior driving too. He lapped his teammate.

Anyway Rubens Barrichello managed to get on the podium in a worse car than the Toro Rosso.

Yeah, and Vettel won a race in the Toro Rosso.

Silverstone 2008 is an awful race choice to try and compare these two drivers because at that time Vettel was in a much slower car than Hamilton and was taken out on the first lap.

 

[Jimlaad43]

Vettel wasn't taken out at Silverstone, he took out someone else.

 

[astrosdude91]

Dude, Coulthard moved in on Vettel who was on the outside, and they both spun 180 degrees into the gravel trap. IE, Coulthard took out Vettel.

 

[YimmiMcGinty]

Neither, Paul di Resta.

 

[Peter.]

I'd rate Hamilton and Alonso both higher than Vettel. Look at 2010. Alonso managed to almost win the title in a car that for much of the season was the number 2 car, and once or twice the number 3 car, he took 5 wins that season. Hamilton wasn't far from the title all season either, the man took 3 wins in a car that was mostly slower than both Red Bull and Ferrari.

The RB6 was quite a lot faster than the F10 or the MP4-25. But Vettel narrowly and, thanks to bad luck on Alonso's part, with engine issues in the last races of the season, having to race with his fingers crossed, and getting held behind Petrov at Abu Dhabi, Webber's injury hampering his performance in the 2nd half, and Hamilton and Button's car just not fast enough anymore because everyone had F ducts by then.

So i'll cast a vote for Hamilton and Alonso being better than Vettel.

 

[Alex.]

I'd rate Hamilton and Alonso both higher than Vettel. Look at 2010. Alonso managed to almost win the title in a car that for much of the season was the number 2 car, and once or twice the number 3 car, he took 5 wins that season. Hamilton wasn't far from the title all season either, the man took 3 wins in a car that was mostly slower than both Red Bull and Ferrari.

The RB6 was quite a lot faster than the F10 or the MP4-25. But Vettel narrowly and, thanks to bad luck on Alonso's part, with engine issues in the last races of the season, having to race with his fingers crossed, and getting held behind Petrov at Abu Dhabi, Webber's injury hampering his performance in the 2nd half, and Hamilton and Button's car just not fast enough anymore because everyone had F ducts by then.

So i'll cast a vote for Hamilton and Alonso being better than Vettel.

So you'll completely ignore Vettel's reliability issues that cost him a number of wins at the start of the season?

 

[xX_F Alonso_Xx]

Alonso retired at Malaysia and he had his fair share of bad luck. Including that safety car at Valencia and being taken out at the first corner by Button in Australia. He got taken out at Spa too.

 

[Alex.]

He spun out at Spa.

 

[xX_F Alonso_Xx]

He spun out at Spa.

Before that, at the Bus Stop chicane he was hit and so his strategy was ruined. Lap 1 or 2.

 

[Peter.]

So you'll completely ignore Vettel's reliability issues that cost him a number of wins at the start of the season?

Well ,there's never really any confirmation that he'd have won those races anyway. In Bahrain, Alonso was chasing Vettel anyway and would've caught him up even if his engine didn't go. In Australia, I think Button would've won regardless, thanks to his genius strategy. In Spain it was a Mark Webber affair from start to finish.

 

[SmittMan]

Hamilton got to be, he has 58% of the votes, supported him since he's been in F1. Plus, anyone want to create an official British Grand Prix thread, I would but I CBA to upload lots of info.

 

[PeterJB]

Well ,there's never really any confirmation that he'd have won those races anyway. In Bahrain, Alonso was chasing Vettel anyway and would've caught him up even if his engine didn't go. In Australia, I think Button would've won regardless, thanks to his genius strategy. In Spain it was a Mark Webber affair from start to finish.

Chances are he would of though. When was the last time he retired from a race he was dominating because he crashed?

 

[SebVettelFan]

Alonso retired at Malaysia and he had his fair share of bad luck. Including that safety car at Valencia and being taken out at the first corner by Button in Australia. He got taken out at Spa too.

Nothing compared to Vettel. He had a win taken away in Bahrain, Australia and Korea and had that problem in Spain. That's nearly 80 points he lost due to no fault of his own.

As for the poll I pick Vettel.

 

[SkengD]

I didnt read through all the posts but i love this thread. Here are my 2 cents.

Hamilton is my fave driver , I've always been a McLaren fan so i support my team.

I would say Alonso is the best driver in terms of all around talent , its probably his experience which gives him this edge but he is excellent in development and all other areas of driving talent.

I wont be able to really rate Vettel until i see him drive in a slower car , lets see how he drives when he isnt driving the best car out there. I dont really count his Monza wet race as a great drive , the conditions were just horrible and they had a great wet setup.

Hamilton has proved that he can win even in a slower car , he definetely gets the most out of a car just like Alonso did in his 2nd time with Renault in a much much slower car.

Hamiltons weakness is his also his strength which is a catch 22 , i guess. If he didnt have those 2 dnfs in Monza and Singapore last year he would have possibly won the title . Even though i think his Spain dnf that season really hurt his cushion of pts.

Vettel seems to be a little better managing tires compared to Hamilton but this could just be the superioir Redbull chassis

Vettel is also getting better , gaining experience of defensive driving , he buckles under pressure sometimes like weve seen in Canada this year .

We have to wait til next season though , hopefully the 2 teams will be closer

Vettel's attempt of an overtake manuveur on Button at last years Spa which took Button out of the race has to be a sign of inferior talent to Hamilton and Alonso

Vettel's attempt of an overtake move on his teammate Webber in last years Turkey GP was also another sign of immaturity in the sport but that was last year .

Luck was definetely not with Seb Vettel last season but it is with him this year. Great talent but not the best talent at the moment

Di Resta is showing great promise

 

[PeterJB]

I wont be able to really rate Vettel until i see him drive in a slower car , lets see how he drives when he isnt driving the best car out there. I dont really count his Monza wet race as a great drive , the conditions were just horrible and they had a great wet setup.

So you're saying the Toro Rosso's pace was comparable to that of the Ferrari's and McLaren's?

Hamilton has proved that he can win even in a slower car , he definetely gets the most out of a car just like Alonso did in his 2nd time with Renault in a much much slower car.

The only time he's had anything slower than the top five was at the start of 2009, and I don't remeber him winning any races then. But yes, he does always push the car to its limits.

Vettel seems to be a little better managing tires compared to Hamilton but this could just be the superioir Redbull chassis

Or possibly because doesn't need to drive on the limit the whole time and Hamilton generally has a more aggressive driving style.

Vettel's attempt of an overtake manuveur on Button at last years Spa which took Button out of the race has to be a sign of inferior talent to Hamilton and Alonso

Or a sign of a flexible wing that changes downforce levels when it comes in and out of dirty air.

Vettel's attempt of an overtake move on his teammate Webber in last years Turkey GP was also another sign of immaturity in the sport but that was last year .

And the three that Lewis has had this year weren't?

 

[Stevisiov]

So you're saying the Toro Rosso's pace was comparable to that of the Ferrari's and McLaren's?

Actually, yes it was and many people forget this.

Torro Rosso were the only team to run practice in the rain, and focus on a wet setup. The Torro Rosso, was the best setup for the conditions, its fairly clear that the Torro Rosso was among, if not the best for the given conditions, as Sebastian Bourdais qualified 4th. While not a bad driver, you wouldn't expect Bourdais to stick a car that wasn't capable of the second row, on the second row.

I know your a huge Vettel fan, but its important not to get too carried away. It was still a defining victory in his career, it was the first win for the Redbull/Torro Rosso outfit. It was a spectacular drive in difficult conditions, and I too, as a big supporter of Vettel was convinced of his future world championship performance after watching this race. But Yes, the Torro Rosso was at least as quick as the Ferrari's and Mclarens that race, so its not as great example of young Seb's driving as you may think.

It is worth mentioning, that both Vettel and Hamilton had some amazing drives in their Rookie season, and it wasn't surprising to see that either of them would be world champion soon after.

 

[PeterJB]

Actually, yes it was and many people forget this.

Torro Rosso were the only team to run practice in the rain, and focus on a wet setup. The Torro Rosso, was the best setup for the conditions, its fairly clear that the Torro Rosso was among, if not the best for the given conditions, as Sebastian Bourdais qualified 4th. While not a bad driver, you wouldn't expect Bourdais to stick a car that wasn't capable of the second row, on the second row.

I know your a huge Vettel fan, but its important not to get too carried away. It was still a defining victory in his career, it was the first win for the Redbull/Torro Rosso outfit. It was a spectacular drive in difficult conditions, and I too, as a big supporter of Vettel was convinced of his future world championship performance after watching this race. But Yes, the Torro Rosso was at least as quick as the Ferrari's and Mclarens that race, so its not as great example of young Seb's driving as you may think.

It is worth mentioning, that both Vettel and Hamilton had some amazing drives in their Rookie season, and it wasn't surprising to see that either of them would be world champion soon after.

I was actually talking about the car's pace over the course of the entire season. But obviously yes, it was pretty much the fastest car at Monza, though it did help that Lewis and the Ferraris completely fluffed-up qualifying.

 

[Alex.]

He also overtook and finished ahead of Lewis in Brazil 2008. Most likely on a similar setup.